"Comprised themselves of overwhelmingly Christian populations these Latin American countries remain apparently unconcerned as Christian Arabs are subjected to harassment and abuse that has seen a drastic diminution in their number living in that area of the West Bank exclusively occupied and controlled by the Palestinian Authority (PA)".

So says Mr. Singer.

If from his own statement, as above, Mr. Singer himself is not able to comprehend that the Christian populations to which he refers, as well as all the other Christian populations around the globe, are far more concerned with the history of injustice, murder, mayhem, ethnic cleansing and apartheid, than they are about the possibility of a move to reduce their Christian numbers even more, regardless of the special importance of the area.

Well, how could he possible understand that?

The deaths, again quoted by Mr. Singer on the two recent bombings are disturbing, no doubt, (if they were carried out by Muslims at all), but they pale into insignificance compared to sixty years of death and inhumane cruelty, including the massacres at Shatila and Sabra, carried out as an on-purpose ethnic cleansing exercise by his Zionist masters who, even to this day treat with disdain the opinions of rest of the world, Christians included, as Israel moves bit by bit to the total annihilation of the Palestinian people, their only real objective.

The effort by Mr. Singer to curry support from Christians is somewhat late in coming and is simply so transparent as to test the intelligence of the readers of this article. He really has a low opinion of Australians and their ability to understand the truth.

Still, in his favour, he has produced yet another article to build up his credits as a voice for his homeland in the middle east.

David Singer writes:
“Certainly Christian Arabs in the West Bank and East Jerusalem would be feeling even more concerned as to their future following the recent outbreak of violence against Christians in Iraq and Egypt which saw:
•23 Coptic Christians die and 79 wounded on New Year’s Day when a car bomb was detonated outside a Church in Alexandria
•58 Christian Chaldeans killed and 76 wounded when Our Lady of Salvation Church was besieged in Baghdad last October"

Rhys Stanley responds:
“The deaths, again quoted by Mr. Singer on the two recent bombings are disturbing, no doubt, (if they were carried out by Muslims at all), but they pale into insignificance compared to sixty years of death and inhumane cruelty, including the massacres at Shatila and Sabra, carried out as an on-purpose ethnic cleansing exercise by his Zionist masters”

If Rhys had spoken with any Copts or Chaldeans they would have allayed any doubts he might genuinely had held. This latest incidents being the last in a long, long line of murders, rapes and kidnappings they’ve had to endure for generations.

But then, I suspect, the concerns Rhys expressed were more rhetorical than real; a perfunctory genuflection before quickly returning to his kick arse crusade against Zionism.

It is a pity that some allow their dislike for Zionism to blind then to the antics of Zionism’s big brother,who resides in most Arab polities and has exactly the same aspirations as his younger Zionist brother ,except, they be on behalf of Arab Muslims.

This is sad indeed, but is Mr. Singer suggesting that Israel should remain in the occupied territories and continue suffering the crippling moral consequences of being a military-occupier just for the sake of protecting the Christians there?

Undoubtedly, those poor Christians are terrified of the prospect of living under Muslim rule and prefer Israel to be there instead, but why should Israel be the victim of this situation? Israel should be allowed to withdraw and embark on the road of moral recovery. Someone else should be appointed by the United Nations to be responsible for protecting the Christians in the West Bank and Eastern Jerusalem - what about, for example, those same-mentioned Christian South American countries that display such an enthusiastic interest in the region?

David,

Israel's leaders are on the record saying they don't want peace. Many Israeli leaders have been investigated for curruption and even a former president found guilty. Israelis can't be trusted.

You are not really conerned about Christians. You just want to try to co-opt Christians in your fight against Islam.

We should recognise the Palestinian state too.

# Rhys Stanley

Your views are not shared by the Pope according to this report on ABC News on January 11:

"Pope Benedict has asked governments to do more to ensure Christians can practice their faith without discrimination or violence.

He also called on Pakistan to repeal its anti-blasphemy laws.

Pope Benedict used his annual address to ambassadors to the Holy See to lobby for religious freedoms for Christians living in majority-Muslim countries.

Citing the recent attack on a Coptic Church in Egypt and the 46 people killed at a church in Iraq, the pontiff insisted Christians deserve to have their safety and civil rights protected.

In a rare move, he used his platform to demand that Pakistan change its blasphemy laws, which carry the death sentence for insulting Islam.

He said the laws were a pretext for violence against non-Muslims."

That part of the West Bank under Palestinian Authority control for the last 15 years comprises a Muslim majority with a rapidly shrinking Christian minority population being subjected to ongoing violence by the majority and forced to leave their place of birth for distant pastures.

You seem to be prepared to justify such Christian cleansing. The Pope does not. I know whose opinion I would accept on this issue.

#Yuyutsu

I am not suggesting Israel should remain in the West Bank to protect the Christian minority. That obligation is incumbent on the Palestinian Authority and has been for the last 15 years. It is an obligation the Palestinian Authority has consistently failed to perform. It should be condemned by all.

Israel's total withdrawal from the 5% of the West Bank it seeks to retain will not help the Christian Arab residents remaining in the other 95% one whit.

Wining and dining the likes of Abbas and Erekat in world capitals whilst such Christian cleansing is going on under their very eyes - and which they do nothing to stop - is one of the more bizarre outcomes of the existing political reality in the West Bank.

Your suggestion that the South American countries come in to protect the Christians is pure nonsense. Do you really believe Abbas would agree to a Latin American force being stationed in territory he now controls - Bethlehem and Bet Sahur - to protect the Christian residents from the violence that the Palestinian Authority has failed to stop over the last 15 years?

Give us a break.

#Dane

Your attempt to subvert the discussion on the violence that has caused the Christian community to leave the West Bank in droves over the last 15 years is pathetic.

Whilst apologists like you sprout such nonsense the Palestinian Arab Christians living in the West Bank will continue to be persecuted by the Palestinian Arab Muslim majority living there - encouraged to do so no doubt by the totally mindless opinions of people like yourself and Rhys Stanley who are not prepared to raise your voices against such excesses.

David Singer says:

//This call to remove every Jew living in the West Bank and East Jerusalem - 500,000 men, women and children - was accepted in total silence by the United Nations.//

Indeed...and this is but the tip of the iceberg regarding the U.N. which some (such as me) would call "Big Brother" in the making.

David...you are preaching to either the converted (sympathetic to Israel) or the uncovertable...those who simply don't intend to change sides no matter how compelling the argument might be.

This is because they are driven not by 'factual evidence' but by ideology, and a socialist ideology at that.

Regarding the Christians who are being harmed in the West bank ? well.. what's new.. the numbers of Christians killed or maimed and/or bombed in the whole area, including Pakistan has exploded lately.

Mentioning this re the West bank won't have much impact in terms of drawing nominal Christians to the Jewish side, if that's why you mentioned it. Most Christians who side with the Muslims/Arabs are driven by a more 'social' gospel or a liberal theology which does not see things very Biblically in my view.

Fortunately for we Christians. Our faith is not tied to geography.
The glorious crusades (and glorious some of them were indeed aside from some minor isolated blemishes within the German knights travels of an anti Jewish nature) taught us that unless we totally dominate and possess the region, we simply don't have a place there. As soon as the first Crusade obtain victory.. most of the knights went back to their families.

Far better that Jews hold power there as an actual nation. More preferable to the Caliph who burned over 3,000 Churches,Massacred pilgrims and precipitated the first Crusade in 1199.

"Do you really believe Abbas would agree to a Latin American force being stationed in territory he now controls - Bethlehem and Bet Sahur - to protect the Christian residents from the violence that the Palestinian Authority has failed to stop over the last 15 years?"

Who cares whether he will agrees or not? Surely he does not agree to the presence of Israel either, so what? If the UN security council decides to send an international force (Latin American or otherwise) to protect the Christians, then this force will perform its duties by hook or by crook, whether Abbas likes it or not. A review is possible at a later date once the UN is convinced that the Christians are safe there. BTW, this can be a part of a larger UN peace-keeping force that will control Eastern Jerusalem once Israel is also ordered to withdraw.

#Yuyutsu

Are you off the planet?

Has the presence of NATO forces in Iraq stopped the slaughter of Christians?

Would the Security Council ever be able agree on any resolution to send a Latin American force into the Palestinian Authority fiefdom against the wishes of Abbas? Do you think Egypt would accept a similar force to protect the Copts? Would Hamas accept a similar force to protect the Christians being persecuted in Gaza? How do you propose this force ride roughshod over Mubarak,Haniyeh and Abbas?

Do the Latin American countries care a damn about the Christian cleansing in the West Bank and Gaza? They are currently falling over themselves to "recognise" a non-existent state controlled by Abbas - the very man who is failing to protect the Christian population.

If the Christian Arabs in Israel were being mistreated as they are in the West Bank then every human rights organization and the UN would be up in arms. From all of them not one squeak on what has been happening in Iraq,Egypt,the West Bank and Gaza.

It is called double standards.

Everyone averts their gaze when Christian cleansing is being carried out by Muslim majority populations.

The 57 members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference have also been conspicuously silent in failing to condemn the violence on Christians in Egypt,Iraq,the West Bank and Gaza.

When the Pope dared to say something - Egypt recalled its ambassador from the Vatican in protest.

Christians will continue to be singled out and victimized in Moslem countries including the West Bank and Gaza.

That - Yuyutsu - is the reality.

Quite simple, David:

I never suggested sending UN forces to Egypt or to Gaza, only to the West Bank.

Why?

Because Mubarak and Haniyeh have the armies to resist - while Abbas does not.

"Double standards"? sure! Discriminating in favour of what CAN be done and leaving out what CANNOT be done for later.

One operation that I would support, and is militarily plausible, is an international force entering Gaza temporarily in order to free the Christians there (and other moderates who suffer under Hamas), allowing them to move to the West Bank instead (or to any other country who would accept them). The threat of such an operation should probably be enough in itself to make Haniyeh allow the Christians out without a single shot.

As for Egypt, I believe that Mubarak does what he can to prevent terror against the Copts. There, the solution is to work WITH him and not AGAINST him, giving him the necessary assistance and technology to be more successful in averting terrorist attacks.

One comment to ALGOREisRICH:

Strange you mention "socialist ideology" - the people who conquered and occupied the West-Bank and Gaza in the first place, and subsequently approved the Jewish settlements, were not observant Jews, but none other than Israel's Labor party, considering themselves socialist. Indeed, it was them who did the greatest dis-service to the state of Israel, trapping it in that filthy swamp to this very day.

I do understand that it is your natural preference that the Jews will be the ones to carry out the dirty work of protecting Christians in the West Bank, and suffer the casualties that come with the job. But the mystery is why should the Jews accept such a role and the heavy price in life, limb and morally that comes with the occupation.

#Yuyutsu

So what does the world do when the army stands by in Gaza and fails to stop Christians being victimized and discriminated against? Send flotillas with no doubt many Christians on board for photo ops with a Prime Minister that allows such violence to continue unchecked?

Jews living in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are part of a state sponsored drive led by the Arab League, the Palestinian Authority and Hamas to eradicate the Jewish state and its Jewish population in stages.

The Arab League has had this policy for the last 63 years by refusing to recognize Israel. It refused to do so between 1948-1967 when not one Jew lived in the West Bank, Gaza or East Jerusalem and the State it demands now could have then been created by the stroke of an Arab League pen.

The Palestinian Authority and Hamas officially endorse Jew cleansing in express provisions contained in their Charters.

Kowtowing to these Jew haters in the United Nations has exacerbated the conflict and encouraged the idea that Palestine will one day become an exclusively Moslem State without either Jews or Christians.

The way things are going we might also see very much the same happening to Christians in Iraq and Egypt. The Jews have gone already. Packing up and getting out to go and live somewhere else becomes a sensible option.

With the Christians this option is being taken with increasing regularity as outbreaks of violence against them by majority moslem populations are taken with apparent impunity and little state intervention to bring the offenders to justice.

Getting rid of the Jews this time round has not been - and will continue to not be - that easy to achieve.

Recognition of Israel by the Arab League and removal of the provisions of the PLO and Hamas Charters denying the Jews any rights to nationhood would go a long way to changing attitudes of Jew hating that have been inbred for centuries. This is what the United Nations should be demanding. That it fails to do so is to its eternal shame.

David,

I fail to see how your last post relates in any way to my former comment.

The issue, I remind you, was how to help the persecuted Christians.

I rephrase:
Christians are in danger, therefore we want to do what is POSSIBLE to help them out, but not attempt what is IMPOSSIBLE. I don't know about Iraq, but in the case of Gaza, it is quite possible (as Israel already proved) to enter there with full military force (and perhaps just the threat of doing that may suffice) and extract all Christians (and other innocent victims of Hamas), take them to safety, then leave the place.

#Yuyutsu

Sending in an armed force to Gaza or the West Bank won't happen.

Maybe sending George Galloway in at the head of a convoy containing representatives from Christian aid organizations would be a better alternative. Of course this would achieve the aim of cleansing Christians from the area which would play into the hands of those who want the Christians out. That would be a travesty of justice.

What is possible - but will also not happen - is a Security Council resolution deploring the killing victimization and continuing persecution of Christians in Egypt,Iraq, Gaza, the West Bank and the denial of their humanitarian rights.

I soon fear Lebanon can be added to this list.

Justice?

What kind of justice is it to allow the Christians, or any other good people for that matter, to rot in the Gazan hell?

One cannot begin to compare the agony of the Christians in Gaza with that of Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon or even the West Bank, so a harsher approach is required there. In the least, those Christians in other Muslim countries are allowed to leave!

Hanieh's strength lies only in public opinion. He is not as brave as Pharaoh, so it won't take ten plagues to convince him to release all Christians: all it would take is a UN Security-Council resoultion authorizing Israel to come in and release them, then he will do as told with tail between his legs.

#Yuyutsu

Dream on.

The Christians living in the west bank are Palestinian. It is their nationality and suffering as an occupied people that is causing them to leave. It is disingenuous to ignore this.

I am sure that the IDF does not check the religion of the locals at check points or when they are facilitating the illegal theft of occupied land.

David, I strongly disagree with much of what you have to say, but I do appreciate that you engage with the discussion threads. However I am sure I mush have misunderstood when you said:

"Jews living in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are part of a state sponsored drive led by the Arab League, the Palestinian Authority and Hamas to eradicate the Jewish state and its Jewish population in stages."

It seems like you are claiming that the illegal settlements are being driven by the Arab league to eradicate Israel. I do think that they are eradicating a two state solution, but surly you are not saying this a project driven by anything other than the religious right in Israel?

Mickey,

If the reason that the Christians are leaving is that they are Palestinians who suffer under occupation, then why are the Muslims not leaving just as well?

Also, if they so hate the occupation, then why do the Christians leave in droves those areas which are under Palestinian control, but stay in the areas controlled by Israel (such as Eastern Jerusalem)?

Personally, I don't support the Israeli occupation, but note the fact that Palestinian Christians do and dread the day when Israel will withdraw and forsake them to the "mercy" of Muslims (of course they'll never tell you that openly if they want their heads to remain attached to the rest of their bodies).

Yuyutsu,

I just cut and pasted this below from Wikipedia. I know it is a pretty bland reference, but it does seem to effectively counter your point.

I really think if you try to put religion above nationality in this debate then you are missing the big issues. I do agree however that Christian Israelis are probably significantly less disadvantaged by the occupation (I get that is not your point, but I feel it is something we could agree on).

:::::

Both Bethlehem and Nazareth, which were once overwhelmingly Christian, now have Muslim majorities. Today about three-quarters of all Bethlehem Christians live abroad, and more Jerusalem Christians live in Sydney, Australia than in Jerusalem. Christians now comprise 2.5 percent of the population Jerusalem; they comprised around 51% in 1947. Those remaining include a few born in the Old City when Christians there constituted a majority.[19]

In a 2007 letter from Congressman Henry Hyde to President George W. Bush, Hyde stated that "the Christian community is being crushed in the mill of the bitter Israeli-Palestinian conflict" and that expanding Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem were "irreversibly damaging the dwindling Christian community".[20][21]

Most Christians in Gaza blame the Israeli occupation pre-2005, the current siege on the city and the war on Gaza 2009 to be the reason for their exodus from Gaza.

::::

Forging property titles and moving in. At least the Israelis have taught the Palestinian Muslims a few tricks of the trade.

Now if the local Aboriginal elder came looking for my block of land on the same basis as the 1948 scenario, the best I could suggest might be, how about we share it?

Unfortunately, I have no weapons to defend my turf and if my Indigenous friends came with a few men and spears (aka the post WWII western powers), then I might be in the same mess.

Sharing rather than owning is the only way to deal with this.

#Mickey K

The Christian Arabs are leaving places like Bethlehem and Bet Sahur for religious reasons. They have seen the writing on the wall. You can't blame them for choosing to end their minority existence in former majority Christian towns where policies by the Palestinian Authority have allowed the Christian majority to be overtaken by a Moslem majority.

Your use of pejorative terms like "the illegal theft of occupied land" does nothing to resolve the conflict - only exacerbate it.

As I have long pointed out Jews have the legal right to live in the West Bank pursuant to article 6 of the Mandate for Palestine and article 80 of the United Nations Charter.

The West Bank is no man's land where sovereignty has remained undetermined between Arabs and Jews for the last 63 years and still remains to be resolved - hopefully by negotiations rather than another war.

Jewish settlement in the West Bank has been the policy of Israeli Governments of all political persuasion during the last 35 years - not only "the religious right" - as you claim. Had the Arabs been prepared to negotiate prior to 1993 the resolution of sovereignty would have been far more easier to achieve than it is now.

Driving out the West Bank Jews is indeed part of a concerted Arab strategy to reverse the results of both the 1948 and 1967 wars.

The continuing failure of the Arab League to recognize Israel as the Jewish National Home is compelling evidence of that intention

#Reality Check

You state:

"Sharing rather than owning is the only way to deal with this."

Would be interested to read your thoughts on this idea. How do you propose it would work?