Words pretty well fail me to express my contempt for this load of canting rubbish, except to point out that much the same could be said of Lilli Marlene, the german army marching song later adopted by british soldiers. The Xmas truce had nothing to do with any god, and everything to to with the inherent goodwill towards each other that is within each of us when that goodwill is allowed expression, free from prescriptive morality.
God, had he/she/it chosen to do so could have prevented the whole miserable business - a point that seems to have totally eluded the author.

@ GYM-FISH:

Agreed.

Christmas is almost here - and I don't care what others may say about
Christmas carols - "Silent Night" can still bring a lump to my throat and a tear to my eye at certain times. I remember being overseas one year at Christmas time and missing my family and friends when I heard
carols being sung and "Silent Night," was amongst them - I felt so homesick.

"An Aussie bush Christmas is a fabulous one
No sign of snow, just hot Aussie sun
But that doesn't matter 'cause this time of year
Christmas is Christmas, even out here."

What a load of self-indulgent tosh.

"The real mystery of the miracle lies in the story behind the carol"

Balderdash. The impact on an individual of a song - the tune, that is - is entirely independent of any religious content, whether or not the author intended it or not.

Silent Night's clever combinations of descending thirds and fourths are well-established emotional triggers, and used here to particularly good effect, that's all. The same response (in European ears) is generated, irrespective of the language in which it is sung - evidence, surely, that the words that carry the "message of Christmas" are entirely incidental to the song's popularity.

Christians have always tried to subvert music to their own evangelical purposes, given its intrinsic emotional pulling-power. Think how awe-inspiring a cathedral choir would have been to sixteenth-century peasants. And how easy to say "look, this is God at work", to trick them into coughing up the odd indulgence or two.

And, like GYM-FISH, I marvel at the asinine naivety of Mr Marsh's observation:

"Some might laugh at the baby in the stable and the Christmas story but if He had been born just for the Christmas truce in 1914 and saved several thousand men's deaths over that surreal time of peace in the midst of war, it would still have been worth it."

Errr... how about the sixteen million deaths that were not "saved" in that conflict?

Gah.

Spot-on, Pericles. Merry Christmas :)

Agreed. One day of peace in four years of insane mayhem is hardly a recommendation for God's grace or mercy. Once apologists can explain why he let the war happen in the first place, then I'll listen.

Reading the article I was inclined not to post a response, till I read the other posters above. Now I think we have to speak out against such twee rubbish, such salivating, dripping sentiment that so many lap-up greedily. I don't believe there's a word of truth in it that wouldn't take on much more sombre tones if the romance were tempered by the full reality. Indeed, such "inspired" yarns are tantamount to peddling fairy tales with happy endings in the context of Auschwitz.
Silent Night certainly is a catchy string of sentiment for those inclined to relinquish their grasp of reality in favour mawkish make-believe. Indeed it's maddening the way such contrived sentiment affects one; I'm often disposed to tears over sentimentality I ought to find contemptuous. But we humans tend too easily to be suckers for sentiment and ceremony we know we ought to hold in contempt.
So sorry to be a humbug, but HUMBUG!
With six kids I've often been an unwilling (indeed appalled) witness of Carols by Candlelight, but though I still have two-year-old twins, never again!
It's hard to say which carols are worse, the ones devoted to consumerism and celebration for its own sake, or the religious crap. Certainly it's no place for a thinking person.

I wonder if this missionary author, like his brethren I've heard about, consider aboriginals possessed by the devil?

"He ate and drank the precious words,
His spirit grew robust,
He knew no more that he was poor,
Or that his frame was dust.
He danced along the dingy ways,
And this bequest of wings
Was but a book. What liberty
A loosened spirit brings!"
-Emily Dickinson.

Whether its a book or a song or a poem by itself its nothing - a film shown in an empty cinema; one can only assess its value by the light it brings to an adult/child's eye! (apologies to Elaine Moss for having borrowed some of her quote).

I'm thankful that Silent Night and the spirit that is behind it will outlast the negative responses like some of the sad stuff written in this forum so far.

Jesus had the same knockers 2000 years ago, there is nothing new.

In every generation all sorts of diverse people people turn to Him, find a wonderful experience of new life and hope. Sure, Christians aren't perfect, but that doesn't stop the gospel message being true.

"Christians aren't perfect, but that doesn't stop the gospel message being true."

As far as I know nobody ever claimed it did. What stops it being true is a complete absence of independent corroborative evidence, and a good strong dose of inherent improbability.

how accurately Jesus reads the hearts of man. Our first few posters highlight it very well.

Yes lovely song, well done Mr Mohr and Mr Gruber.

Warwick: “…This baby was supposedly illegitimate. Joseph had put his good name on the line,…” ”While Mary deserves all the credit she gets, her husband does too.”

Even talking about the birth of Christ you put in a plug for fathers rights Warwick and the sacrifice Joseph made, for reasons I can’t quite explain that message made me feel yuck and I am so pleased I didn’t see it yesterday.

Reading previous posts has clarified why I didn’t get what war had to do with that particular song. If the date was special to a few soldiers on one day then all good but I can think of some better songs to describe that situation.

A post of mine to this thread was removed because it responded to a post by a suspended individual. It seems curious to me that it was expunged without a trace, since normally a record of deletions remains. Since I have not offended against OLO, but only against sensibilities I have little respect for, I want to leave a marker, a "flag of rememberence". The tendency of my thinking was (in the deleted post):
What I object to about these “romantic” historicisations of events is not the fantasies in themselves—harmless delusions after all are to be pitied—but the way these seemingly innocuous inventions breed, colonise and tend to maintain the ideological world as it is (the real world is of course unaffected). The fact that combatants on both sides may have been seduced by a song, simultaneously, is not so remarkable; indeed in a pitched battle, during a lull, between brothers in all else but nationality and ideology, it’s surely all but predictable that the preoccupations on either side would tend to passivity, and to coalesce, on such a date, and that insanity would call an unreal interregnum. One need only read of Pierre’s exploits in “War and Peace” to see that war and imminent mortality breed reverie--indeed pathetic, full-tilt-retreats back into the more innocent cogitations of youth—suspension of disbelief. Such yearning naivety should give us pause to reconsider the susceptiveness of feeling--and thought that follows blindly. Do we romanticise the Diary of Anne Frank? But rather than hanging the head, unscrupulous institutions (I don’t buy their naivety), like the church and the state (inseparable), see it all as grist to the mill, pennies for the plater, easy votes and bums on pews—a resource to be tapped and drained.
So what does Warwick draw from his lovely little parable? What is his complementary sermon? Let’s have it? Or do we just enjoy the tears for tears’ sake? Perhaps the lesson is too solemn to be understood, and tears will suffice..?
Well stuff that!

"As far as I know nobody ever claimed it did. What stops it being true is a complete absence of independent corroborative evidence, and a good strong dose of inherent improbability."

Ah but the Bible has more historical evidence to back it than most historical occurences that are taught as fact in schools! Even Historians don't dispute the Gospel story is true but only some believe in its message for them.
That's what the carol Silent Night is about - the message of Jesus coming as hope for the world . Just like the historians you can choose to not believe as in some posts above, but the message is there for everyone no matter what you have done.
To me Silent Night had humble beginnings just like Jesus but its wonderful message has spread across the world & has been translated in many languages because of its message of hope - just as Jesus gives us. So yes the music is beautiful but without the message as well it loses its impact .

Ausjude:

"Even Historians don't dispute the Gospel story is true..."

The ones I read do:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_myth_theory

But there's only about forty listed there. Go on with your happy delusion by all means.

As a life “sojourner” with many ND experiences, I have developed a meaningful association with a personal God , a God I firmly believe exists.

The article was a moving account of a forgotten but relevant and timely historical event that rekindled the memory of my much loved Grandfather who faught in the same trenches: Well done.

Squeers:

Obviously you correspond from the planet “utopia”. Sure some priest in the Catholic Church, for example, stand accused of crimes unmentionable, but on the whole what matters are the parishioners and their faith in their God, not the Church. Turn the coin over!

Church and State! Where here is the crime? You act like a silly duffer Squeers, In the eyes of many, Church and State are a comforting combination of morals and practical rule; I vote for the more of it not the less of it, as imperfect as the rule is.

diver dan:
<Obviously you correspond from the planet “utopia”>

It never ceases to amaze me that fruitcakes who believe in heaven and hell won't have a bar of utopia. But then, it just doesn't hit the "Right" note of jouissance, does it? I mean, the ego is a sensitive fish and earthly paradise just don't cut it..

<on the whole what matters are the parishioners and their faith in their God>

Ah yes, the flock--the sheep, that is. We mustn't forget them.
It's not enough that the silly twerps enjoy the high life with all the mod cons (without a pang of conscience), they have to bask in the glory of God too, and have eternal life (eternal schadenfreude) into the bargain.
They are a precious little flock after all and there's nothing quite so comforting as the highest microgram of woolly thinking.. except perhaps a few bars of "Silent Night", or better still:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqVKvRTmbj0

<Church and State! Where here is the crime? You act like a silly duffer [at least I don't "kid"nap or proselytise sheep] Squeers, In the eyes of many, Church and State are a comforting combination of morals and practical rule; I vote for the more of it not the less of it, as imperfect as the rule is>
I bet you do.. There's nothing like a good shepherd!

..But then, we were not all born to be sheep to be sheep, ol' chap..

Squeers:

Well squeers, the Christian utopia concluded almost before it began when man was pitched out of the garden of Eden with instruction from God to fend for himself. Sounds to me you are a few thousand years behind the times.

The sheep!
Now really Squeers, to be a Christian in these pages is to be a member of the minority flock. That would also put you and your anti view into the woolly majority pen along with other bleating atheists.

Anyway, cheer-up. Try to have a Merry Christmas and a happy new year.

Out of all the Christmas carols Silent Night is the least annoying - at least it has a nice tune. :)

However as for miracles regards the temporary truce this came about more from human goodwill and would have transpired whether it was a Christmas festival or a pagan one etal. That is, whatever the common religion or spiritual belief of the time.

It is always about the human rather than the supernatural and that is the way it always has been no matter how we dress it up as miracles or as anything other than a natural human response.

I would have preferred the 'miracle' of Silent Night to have prevented the world war in the first place.
Think how many lives would have been saved then?

What I really want to know is what the Shepherds were 'quaking' about in the song?
All the rest of the song is about sweetness and babies and virgins and silence, and then we have the 'quaking' Shepherds?

ahh...Suze...every person should have "prayed" and opened up their hearts and minds to God our father, Jesus Christ and Our Lady Mary, in the first place..."He who believes in Me shall be saved and rewarded" on earth and during the next life/hearafter.

It's just the translation, suzeonline.

>>What I really want to know is what the Shepherds were 'quaking' about in the song?<<

The line in German is "Hirten erst kundgemacht", a more accurate translation of which would be "first made known to the shepherds".

Try fitting that into six syllables, and get it to rhyme at the same time!

The translation was made back in 1859 by an American, John Freeman Young. I guess he just anticipated those shepherds being told by the angels not to be afraid, hence the quaking.

Poetic licence.

The anti-Christian bile is unnecessary, people draw whatever meaning, togetherness, sense of community and spirituality they like from the beautiful music and rich traditions of Christmas carols.

If hope, joy and good can come out of pagan festivals - and I personally haven't witnessed any broad-reaching charitable works out of a pagan festival - then let us have those pagan festivals as well.

The moral impact of Christmas carols is for the good and the intolerance of the scores and music seen here would be petty, comical even, if it were not for the underlying prejudice and bigotry. No-one is forced to listen or participate, just switch off your TVs and radios and avoid the public gatherings.

Talking about Christmas carols, I missed Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol this year. I wonder if it was screened because it has become part of the tradition of Christmas for many.

Ausjude writes, “Ah but the Bible has more historical evidence to back it than most historical occurences (sic) that are taught as fact in schools! Even Historians don't dispute the Gospel story is true but only some believe in its message for them.”

In the reference cited by Jon-J, Wikipedia writes, “Those who argue that Jesus existed suggest that he was born a Jew between 7 BCE and 7 CE (according to the gospel of Matthew, he was born during the reign of Herod the Great, who died in March in the year 4 BCE while the Gospel of Luke has him born during the Census of Quirinius which occured [sic] 6-7 CE); and that he died around 30 CE, during the administration of Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Iudaea province. Biblical scholar L. Michael White, not himself a Jesus-myth theorist, writes that, so far as we know, Jesus did not write anything, nor did anyone who had personal knowledge of him. There is no archeological evidence of his existence. There are no contemporaneous accounts of his life or death: no eyewitness accounts, or any other kind of first-hand record. All the accounts of Jesus come from decades or centuries later; the gospels themselves all come from later times, though they may contain earlier sources or oral traditions. White writes that the earliest writings that survive are the letters of Paul of Tarsus, written 20–30 years after the dates given for Jesus's death. Paul was not a companion of Jesus; nor does he ever claim to have seen Jesus before his death.”

Ausjude, can you stand by what you asserted?

Folks
Regardless of how much we each resist ( are blinded to) the truth, only the truth can set you free. Each of us is on the journey to find the truth. As each of the scales is peeled of our eyes the truth remains patiently to be found. In fact the truth is the one who lovingly peels away the scales to reveal Himself to each one of us.

I encourage each one of us to knock, seek and ask for the truth to rescue us from our predicament.

Hang on ...He already has... Jesus came as a baby and paid the ultimate sacrifice. Now the choice, as it always has been, is ours.

Do we accept Jesus the CHRIST or do we reject Him. He will continue to wait, for a time, for us to turn back to Him.

What are we going to do?

Delilah,
what a crock of conceited delusion!
Never mind the devoutly-spoiled sing-songy westerners! what is "the CHRIST" doing for those in genuine need; you know, those starving to death in their millions, as opposed to the mere wallowing?
The truth is there is no "truth"!
But if a placebo (including tacky Christmas songs) works for you lot, and your self-inflationary issues, enjoy!

Dear Squeers
Firstly let me wish you a Blessed Christmas. May there be peace in your heart and mind.
I have come to realise that the delusion we have is that question -what “ The Christ” is doing for “those starving to death in their millions”?. We rather should be asking ourselves what we are doing for “those starving to death in their millions”. That is what Jesus asks of us... that out of gratitude for what he has done for us in eternity, we do the same for other in this short temporal life.
But we are deluded, by the “enemy of Truth” in our selfishness, self centeredness and self-righteousness to see the truth of Christ’s “Amazing Grace” in our own life.
In fact more of the helping of fellow man is done by Christian and other religious institutions. I am not saying that non religious don’t do good things. I am saying Christ inspired institutions, among others, have been at the forefront of “Charity” in the west and in the developing world.
Some things are a consequence of a fallen world.
In some cases we(humanity, nations, societies, communities and individuals) are His Instruments, if we do not follow His will we cannot blame Him for the consequences of our actions or lack thereof.

Delilah

Well good for you, Delilah. You appear to be new and I wouldn't want to discourage you. But the things you say, same ol' same ol', give me no cause for optimism for this world.
Merry Xmas, happy new year, God's grace and all that..

Squeers:

I think that you're simply stirring my friend. I don't believe that someone with your charm, and wit and warm-heartedness could not be affected by certain songs, poems, et cetera. Of course it is all very subjective (like art), but then I'm sure you know that - and I'm sure that you don't really begrudge others in feeling all warm and fuzzy (at least this once a year). Make Merry! (in your own way of-course,
and you can forgo the sugar and add the spice instead, if that's more to your taste). ;-)

Delilah <" Some things are a consequence of a fallen world."
What 'things' Delilah?

So the millions of starving people in the world would not be in their 'predicament' if they all found the 'true god' and begged forgiveness?
We would need one hell of a miracle to stop world poverty, that's for sure!

I am assuming you gave up all your worldly goods for the poor people?
Christians do not have a monopoly on goodness Delilah.

Hi Suzeonline
I hope you had a blessed CHRISTmas. I pray this coming year will bring you a peace that passes all understanding.
Our bodies getting older and dying for one, Sickness of every kind, situations that bogle the mind of us mere mortals ( e.g. when a beautiful child of 17 who seeks to serve God and her fellow Man- this is a real person- develops incurable brain Cancer. ) and the susceptibility of our hearts and minds to be tricked into turning away from communing with God, are but a few of the things that are a consequence of the Fallen world.
We are only in control of, and are responsible for, our response to the situations that confront us (Poverty and starvation in other countries.) I am convinced that as we grow in your relationship with our saviour God, He enables us to deal with the situation we are in. Just believing in him is not a cure-all for the problems in the world or in an individual’s life. He is however able to assist us in gaining new perspective in our response to that which is within us and in the circumstances in the world we live in.
Just because one claims to be a Christian does not make them perfect, far from it. We all are, on this Journey of life in search of the relationship we lost with our Creator God.
You are correct in saying “Christians do not have a monopoly on goodness Delilah. “
What is more important (and this is for all of us religious, nonreligious, Christian and nonChristian) is the motivation for why we do what we do, be it good or bad In many cases we can do good things for all the wrong reasons. It may look good from the outside but it is damaging us on the inside
From living in poverty stricken countries I know that people in there need have a greater faith and trust in God than we do in the self-sufficient west.
Have a safe and blessed New Year with your loved ones.

Delilah:”From living in poverty stricken countries I know that people in there need have a greater faith and trust in God than we do in the self-sufficient west.”

For sure… when you have nothing you might as well believe in something as some weird form of cheap comfort/entertainment.

What is the point in having a God that is blamed for nothing and yet celebrated for everything? Everything is the Will of God until it is a bad thing then it is Mans Will. Too easy, but anyways….

I thought mostly this thread was about a song so I’m gonna add one that a friend sent me yesterday and it gave me immense joy (if you don’t like the odd naughty word don’t click on it).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQlIhraqL7o

Jewely writes

'For sure… when you have nothing you might as well believe in something as some weird form of cheap comfort/entertainment. '

And for sure when you have everything you might as well deny the God who gave it to you and be self righteousness enough to think you have earned or deserve it.

Jewely:
<What is the point in having a God that is blamed for nothing and yet celebrated for everything? Everything is the Will of God until it is a bad thing then it is Mans Will. Too easy, but anyways….>

Quote of the month for mine :-)
And I much prefer your xmas carol!

Runner:”And for sure when you have everything you might as well deny the God who gave it to you and be self righteousness enough to think you have earned or deserve it.”

Aw now Runner... which God have you personally decided gave me anything?

It’s a good song eh Squeers, cracked me up.

Songs are important – national anthems seem to mean a lot to some (NZ changed its for the better not long ago) countries and some church music is amazing. We worship our good singers but I think them being famous and making money is a more modern concept? I’m very much addicted to anything by Leonard Cohen.

There is one song that is very much Christian that I think is beautiful so I’ll put it here for Runner who I hope will like it.

http://www.andiesisle.com/Calling_All_Angels.html

Jewely

'Aw now Runner... which God have you personally decided gave me anything? '

The Creator God, the living God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, the God seen clearly through creation, the loving Father who sent His Son as a sacrifice for yours and mine sin. There is no other God except for the vain imaginations in men' heads.

I'll get in first, Runner. What I wish you had written was:

"There is no ..... God except for the vain imaginations in men' heads."

That's right, there is no pre-ordained purpose to existence, we create it, we shape it, nobody else to blame. We are free of gods, in a world that is forever uncertain and unfinished.

Joe

Loudmouth

'That's right, there is no pre-ordained purpose to existence, we create it, we shape it, nobody else to blame. We are free of gods, in a world that is forever uncertain and unfinished.'

very convenient to make yourself out to be god. You should have learn't by now you can control very little. Don't overestimate man's puny achievements. Without God you and I would not have air to breathe, Don't give me that we got air by chance rot. Any honest scientist knows that is crap. The big we create it, we shape it, we are free from gods is one big delusion that ignores the obvious.

We shape our purposes, Runner, we 'create' them, not that anything ever runs perfectly to plan, but that's the point: we live in a God-free, imperfect, uncertain and unending world. Yes, we are puny, but we are also on our own, no Grandad to hold our hands.

As they say, enjoy !

Joe

The sort of twit runner parodies is cute, don't you think?

"an invisible man makes it go" is not associated with the capacity to reach the intellectual pedals, let alone be allowed to drive.

runner parodies the sort of child unable to understand why.

Cute in a child or the intellectually challenged, contemptible in an adult.

Well done runner, an excellent parody.

Rusty

Folks

Can I ask then: In a Godless world, What is the meaning and purpose of life? Why would you chose to think of other or be kind or be selfless or even adhere to any form of morals. What would become of values and principles.

Would Godlessness lead to hopelessness, abuse, contempt for life and internal death, chaos and decay?? That is the direction our society is heading. Just look at the statistics (news), More divorse more fatherlesness, more abuse( off all kinds) more suicide more family breakdown more workplce discontent.....and the list goes on.

The current trend leads us further away from either a silent night or a holy night.

Why, why, why Delilah ?!

Is what you describe your notion of what you might become without a god to lean on ? It really is not a picture of the world that many non-believers have, a world without values, of chaos and dog-eat-dog. We have to find and develop and manage a sense of purpose without any Grandfathers.

As a non-believer, what you suggest has never occurred to me and to many others of similar persuasion: we spend our lives trying to contribute and think through what the world, society and human aspirations can be like. I suppose many criminals are godless, I don't know, intuitively it makes sense, but it may be just one more aspect of their anti-social behaviour in general.

To return to topic, I am in a couple of singing groups with Sing Australia (check out their web-site) and yes, we sing a hell of a lot of carols towards Christmas, including versions of Silent Night. I can get as enthusiastic as the best of them, and enjoy most of the carols - God Rest Ye etc. and a few others get a bit repetitive and I really can't give the Twelve Days yadayada my full attention. But on the whole, it can be a lot of fun, especially W.G. James' carols. As singing is generally :)

And why should God have all the best tunes ?

Joe

Delilah:
<Would Godlessness lead to hopelessness, abuse, contempt for life and internal death, chaos and decay?? That is the direction our society is heading. Just look at the statistics (news), More divorse more fatherlesness, more abuse( off all kinds) more suicide more family breakdown more workplce discontent.....and the list goes on>

And this after two thousand years of Christianity!

You should expand your reading, Delilah; ethics is considerably less problematic without dogmatic binaries of good and evil. Progressive humanism has all the ethical philosophy we could want, but ethics runs counter to the spirit of capitalism and ergo it is only observed in the breach.
I am an atheist but I can assure you I have a highly developed sense of right and wrong, and I don't need the promise of eternal life to live ethically. Incongruously, I'm a member of a profoundly unethical culture.

Runner I reckon everyone who reads a message will view it differently - each person will hear a different tone, receive a different meaning, be feeling a different way from the next person when they read it and every message viewed changes in a million different ways according to who receives it, not the messenger.

That person sitting in church beside you does not see what you see or hear what you hear or understand the message in the way you do. I do not believe any belief is shared by many; each faith belongs to only the person who has it.

You found your god, I don’t accept your belief as mine is all. I'm okay with it so I'm not sure why you sound annoyed... but then it could just be the way I read your message.

It seems that truth is getting sidelined here. There are actually many times more historical records around the life and work of Jesus and the the early church than the next most documented historical figure. Would 11 of his 12 disciples have willingly been martyred for a lie? (the 12th was exiled). We have lots of historical documentation about the early mission ventures. We know that this resulted in many many deaths of early Christians but amazingly it ended up with the Roman Empire itself taking the message on board. All for a lie? Josephus, a Jewish historian acknowledges Jesus. Fragments of the New Testament have been found dating back to one part of Johns Gospel written about the year 120. Have those on this forum who are skeptical actually read their Bible, especially the Gospels? Truth has a way of clearing things up.
Dash

Remind me of Lilith in the bible Dash.

Truth, documents relating to what?

Truth?

Good lord.