Daniel's comments highlight serious weaknesses in how we as a society conceptualise and understand the nature of 'learning', 'knowledge','understanding' and 'assessment'.
Cambo

I am of the belief that all tests and exams prove who has the best memory, especially in the early years. Do not politicians cram information on their portfolios for media interviews? I am of the opinion that many do not have an in depth knowledge of what they are saying. Maybe this is the reason they dodge questions outside what they have crammed. They do not understand or know he answers. I find that people who can talk under water have very little to convey.

Flo, you're correct on that one. When people started to write resumés for others & when selection panel questions were standardised, an employer is unable to gauge an applicants ability/suitability for a job. In my organisation we have people who present impressive resumés but are utterly inept & rely extremely heavily on ordinary workers to cover their inefficiencies & by employing more staff than necessary. All of the above comes at great expense to the taxpayer & individual careers. It's not a good thing for our future that's for sure.

Assesment only based on exams is not good.

Now, before I go on, everything I write is aboutt gender differences... on average, typical, by-and-large, trends etc. Yes there are amny individualy who are exceptions to the typical. But I write about what is typical...

However, one of the major developmental differences between boys and girls is that girls are about a year more advanced than boys in verbal skills. Not only that, but they thrive in a collablrative, communicative, continous assesment environment.

Boys can't keep up with girls in this sort of environment... and they have been failed by our schools in huge numbers.

Over two thirds of uni places go to girls now... The average ark boys get in NSW year 12 is 20% below tha average mark girls get. Not only that, but many more girls complete year 12, so the few best of the boys are still 20% below the average girl.

In comparison to girls, boys like facts, not feelings. Competition not collaboration. Exams not continous assesment.

Everything that boys enjoy has been largely removed from modern teaching practice. No wonder boys are failing

No Flo, tests prove who has understood the information on the subject. It is very hard to remember "stuff" & reproduce it, if you have not understood it in the first place.

Assignments only show who is good at rewriting something produced by Google.

That our education system has been bastardised to a ridiculous extent, to favour girls, is obvious when one finds, in a math test the question, "define the word number".

Daniel, it would seem to me you are complaining about the wrong part of the school process. If kids can do the tests successfully, the system is working reasonable well. It would appear to me your complaint is actually with the curriculum, & those who designed it. not the schools.

I don't think teachers can point the finger at too much else.

I have seen report cards coming back with the same words written about a student, but by different teachers. This means that these teachers must have been using some type of standard manual to write exactly the same words in the report card.

And, as was mentioned in another forum, assignment are so often returned by teachers with few or no comments written on the assignments by the teacher. This then gives the student no idea on what was good or bad about the assignment, and gave no guidance to the student on what to do in the future.

The teachers themselves were not adequately expressing themselves or communicating with the student, and so often, they have no communication with anyone else also, other than asking for more and more taxpayer funding.

They ask for more and more, but want to return as little as possible.

vanna,

Of course, different teachers use the same comments on students’ reports (not “report cards” – a term which I never heard used in a school in 33 years of teaching but is now heard from non-teachers because of the Americanisation of our language). They are probably using comments databases, a most efficient way to cope with the heavy workload imposed on teachers. As English coordinator in one school, I devised a very effective comments database that also automatically calculated the students’ level on the CSF, with a manual override available.

Given the renewed push to increase class sizes, now emanating from the Grattan Institute, you had better prepare for even fewer comments on students’ assignments. After all, it all takes time, something that the legions of teacher-bashers have no understanding of.

The more money that teachers ask for may be that required to restore their salaries to the comparative levels that applied 35 years ago (something over $20,000 for a teacher on the top Victorian classroom level) or that required to restore secondary staffing to the level that applied 29 years ago (10.9:1, compared with 11.9:1 now). You don’t specify which or any time period – naturally.

I am not a teacher basher Chris and fully acknowledge all of the hard work and personal dedication and sacrifices made by many teachers including my sister, a long term neighbour and friends.

I have compared curriculums [including assignment tasks/request' setting, class work with respect to the type of work covered, the volume of work conducted during class time, marking, class settings/environment]compared to the 70's - 90's.

There have been fantastic changes made within the education arena although I feel some extra concepts should be introduced to take the pressure off teachers nationwide allowing them to get on with teaching and educating our future children with some extra concepts introduced.

To address the timing element for marking both during class and teachers after hours leisure time; each class in secondary education should have another teacher [either 3rd year prac or qualified editor to assist teachers marking English, Maths, Science, Biology, Commerce type subjects]; primary subjects where students rely upon those subjects for university and apprenticeships after Year 12 completion.

One teacher per 1-33 ratio should have changed years ago.

Competitions and prizes/trips donated by government to acknowledge and reward years 9, 10, 11 and 12 students who read a certain quantity of books annually [spelling and grammar will improve], study well, complete and pass all of their maths, english and science while working with a careers adviser from the beginning of year 9 for encouragement. It is far too late for Year 10 students to be chatting about careers or workforce placement half way through Year 10. I discovered lately this is still occurring in some schools.

A couple of security guards employed and installed within each secondary school to turf out kids who are troublemakers, defiant, wasting teachers and principals time and resources, taking it away from those who choose to learn. The mere presence of security guards psychologically poses a warning and threat to those time wasters and would benefit secondary school security during terms.

"Security guards" - "effective comments databases" - "automatically calculated CSF levels" - "competitions and prizes/trips donated by government"....brrrrr.
So this is the reality and promise of institutionalised education in the 21st century. All very well for the bureaucracy involved, but you wouldn't want to send a child to one of those places to become a well-rounded individual - would you?
I employed my "manual override" and decided to homeschool.

Chris C

Re heavy workload.

I know of a high school that offered over 30 subjects to grade 11 and 12 students, and many classes were down to about 10 students, and some subjects were eventually dropped because of lack of students, but still the teachers were giving the same comments on the report card, and giving few or no comments on assignments.

This minimal lack of communication showed absolutely no effort by the teacher, and gave the student any real guidance as to what to do.

I also know of a married couple who are both teachers.

They go on overseas holidays in their ample holiday time, and they often spend their weekends camping. If the surf is up during the week, they are at the beach by 4.30 in the afternoon. In fact, between them they now have about 8 surfboards and windsurfers.

For lesson plans, they just repeat what they did the year before, and if a student does badly, they recommend to their parents to send the student to a tutor.

Not ironically, tutors charge about $100 an hour and are often teachers doing tutoring as a side line.

We even had our kids school refuse to let the year 11 & 12 kids take their math test papers home. WE considered it would be a good idea if parents, & tutors used test results to find the kids weaknesses.

It turned out the hard working teachers had been using the same tests for 5 years, & wished to continue this practice, hence did not want to let it out for public perusal.

After I sent a copy of the letter I had prepared for the local paper to the head, the practice changed.

I think we should give these hard working teachers an extra 6 weeks non contact time each year, to allow them to do all this marking, & preparation.

How? Give them 4 weeks leave, like every one else, & have then work the other 6 weeks they now have off. That should make the poor little dears a bit less time poor, & stressed.

we are unique,

It is important that a teacher mark his or her students’ own work because the teacher needs to know his or her own students and because part of the learning from it is for the teacher, who may seen certain concepts not widely understood and therefore decide to reteach them .

I don’t know where the 33:1 ratio comes from. The PTR in Victorian primary schools is 15.7:1 and, in secondary, it is 11.9:1, though the secondary one ought to be restored to the 10.9:1 it was three decades ago.

vanna,

I see you have decided to ignore my comment about the non-existence of “report cards”.

Has been,

You haven’t got a clue, have you?

It is a reasonable efficiency measure to use the same test papers year after year, but it has the downside that you allude to. I guess the school will have to become twice as inefficient and swap papers year-about.

I’ve heard the usual garbage about how easy teachers have it for over 35 years now. I have given the figures on working hours before, but as they are facts they cannot compete against the ridiculous bile and anecdote that spew forth whenever teachers are discussed. I suggest that, instead of resenting people whom you – falsely – think have it easy and wanting to make their working lives worse, you get your union to improve your own working conditions.

If you cared to think a bit more, you would realise that the attitude displayed by people like you is one reason that people do not want to be teachers. Why join a profession that will be denigrated on a daily basis by people who would not last a day in the classroom?

Chris C,
Re Report cards.

By this I mean end of term assessment forms that the students bring home for their parents (or in our society “parent”) to sign.

But if the teachers are using the same comments about students from a standard database, and also using the same exam paper year after year, then the whole thing must be getting very close to a form of plagiarism.

The student is required to show original thought and use original words in their essays and assignments, but the teachers use words from a standard database and use the same exam paper.

“Do as I say, but don’t do as I do” should become the motto of such teachers.

My son received the same assignments twice this year as he received once last year - Buddhism - what was God telling us...LOL...an emphasis for peace and respect in our lives?... along with a repetition of two other assignments for other subjects. My line of repetition to son "Hold on, these assignments appear identical to the others we've done, they are on the computer saved".

Those people who have not taught at all or regularly for years should spend a few terms in classrooms, participate in staff meetings and attend courses, take kids on excursions, arrange and conduct interviews, mark papers, liaise with parents over student issues, plan a great deal of the work for students and continue/further teacher educational studies during holiday periods, key in performance indicators, complete teacher performance evaluations, arrange and participate in sporting, charity and fundraising school events often after hours as occurs with most excursions minus the overtime

ChrisC, & w a u, I lived with one teacher for 12 years, she was a head when we split up. She was not over worked any more than someone in private enterprise, earning similar money. In fact her over all hours were less than mine.

A lot of our friends were teachers, & the entire crew of my yacht, for Wednesday afternoon, & Friday evening races were teachers. They always had the time.

I was also an office bearer, mostly treasurer of P&C associations for 12 years.

My present partner established & ran, for the P&C, the school text book hire scheme, for our local high school. She put in 3 days a week, I did all the book work, & together we covered, & or repaired some hundreds of thousands of books in 17 years.

That scheme averages $170,000 a year net input into that school, & saves the parents quite a bit of money.

So no, of course, I wouldn't have a clue about schools, but I'm sure I have attended as many planning meetings than any teacher below a deputy head.

I had read your contributions to schools on previous threads Hasbeen however over the past 8-10 years times have changed dramatically work load wise for teachers [one of my siblings is a school principal and teacher] and often compared both eras regarding many aspects of the education system, students, curriculums, standards, staffing and other issues. One of the main topics discussed is that people in general have absolutely no idea of all the extra hours, over many years that teachers have contributed, educating Australian children.

Fetes and other events attended by teachers, in their own time, on weekends, in addition to sporting events when schools compete with one another, along with many more after hours events, yet few people are honest or just thoughtless in acknowledging all the sacrifices and unpaid time Australian teachers over their 30 year career, have made, for the simple love of educating thousands of Australians now working.

My comments are curriculum based.

vanna,

As I have already said, I never heard the term “report cards” used by anyone in my 33 years of teaching. Every principal, teacher, parent, student and departmental official spoke of “reports”, meaning the “end of term assessment[s] that students bring home for their parents”. Americans say “report cards”, and now the term is being used here.

Plagiarism is copying someone else’s work, passing if off as your own in an academic or creative context. Using databases and re-using material you or your colleagues have prepared is not plagiarism.

The teacher is not requited to show original thought and use original words in assignments and reports. The task of the teacher in preparing work is to help a student learn. If something used before does this, the task has been met. The purpose of reports is to convey information on student learning. If comments from a database do this, the task has been met.

Has been,

The availability of teachers on particular afternoons or evenings to crew yachts is irrelevant to their total working week. What they could not do Friday evening because they were on your yacht they could on Saturday morning. Teachers average over 50 hours a week on work, far more than the standard 38-hour week.

It may be that your hours are excessive.

Your efforts to help local high school’s textbook hire scheme are commendable, but they do not show knowledge of the daily work of teachers, whose holidays are justified by the stressful nature of their work.

You might also consider the difference between teaching year 7 and year 12 and the difference between teaching PE and teaching English.

I don’t know why you specify “planning” meetings, but the typical teacher has three meetings a week. Those on administrative committees, curriculum committees, School Councils and the like have more.

Chris C
Repeating the same exam year after year may be constructive, because it can help find the areas that students are normally weakest in, and steps can then be taken to improve the teaching methods in those areas.

However, with the tragic decline in maths and science in so-called Australian education, and it seems a likely decline in English also, teachers do not seem to be taking any steps to find better teaching methods for those areas that students are normally weakest in.

While repeating the same exams, the teachers also repeat the same comments about students on their report cards, and overall show a continuing lack of innovation and willingness to try something different.

Like Hasbeen, I have also had considerable experience with teachers over the years, and their No 1 priority seems to be “getting money from government”. In fact they seem to think that spending as much taxpayer money as possible improves student marks, when the records show very different.

Their last priority was to spend any of the money from the Australian taxpayer in Australia, and they never blinked an eye at importing everthing they used.

About middle priority was the actual education of the student.

Like Hasbeen, I have also ived with a number of teachers in the past, and at that time I had to start work at 6.00 am, (while they were still asleep), and I got home about 5.00 pm, long after they got home.

My work also involved working weekends and public holidays, and during the annual leave of 5 weeks, it was expected that you spend a number of days of that leave at the workplace.

vanna,

Why are you still saying “report cards”? Did the teachers you lived with them call them that? As I have said twice already, the term used universally in schools in my time as a teacher was “reports”. How did this Americanisation of the language sneak in? Or was it just Victoria that used “reports”, while other states actually wrote them on “cards”?

There hasn’t been a “tragic” decline in maths and science, as the PISA results show year after year. There has been a minor decline in comparison with some other countries, the reasons for which are complex. In reading, the lowest decline in Australia, was in Vicotira, where is was an insignificant 516 to 513.

I put that best performance in the country down to the Labor government’s re-investment in education – i.e., the spending of more money – and its re-introduction of some sort of system in place of the previous market rules.

I worked with hundreds of teachers over 33 years and none of them had their No 1 priority as getting money from the government. Many of them knew the benefits of smaller classes and decent teaching loads (which do cost money) and they, like all workers, wanted to be well paid, even the more than $20,000 more that they got in 1975 compared with now. Society would, if it cared about children, support them in their quest for decent working conditions and pay because society would want the most able people to go into teaching and to stay there.

Victorian stonemasons won the 8-hour day 155 years ago. All employees should fight to retain it.

Chris, perhaps vanna is a north Queenslander.

They were always called report cards, when I went to school there, & they were in fact a card, so not all that much on them.

However, unlike today they did have the most important things for parents, interested in their kids progress, like percentage mark scored in a test, & position in class, or in some subjects, position in that year.

The incompetent teacher who's kids were all doing badly, could not hide behind a whole pile of bull dust about competition being bad for kids.

I was appalled when my oldest daughter did HSC and I found out that the the point of the English exam was to regurgitate a memorised essay. As far as I am concerned this makes the English exam a speed writing test. I thought the point of an exam was the unpredictabile question which forced the student to think on their feet and write cogently in a limited time frame.

What does the current form of the English exam assess? As Daniel Brass says it tells us that the student has a good memory and can write fast. How do we know that the memorised essay is the student's own work?

I thought the point of English was to teach students to communicate, but good writing seems to be rather low on the list of tasks in the classroom. The rationale for English that Brass shared with us in his article does not mention communication as a rationale for English.

Realising that Brass had quoted a small extract I checked out the NSW Board of Studies document online: http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/syllabus_hsc/pdf_doc/english-syllabus-from2010.pdf Communication is discussed in the rationale of the course. However, the impression that I have is that the quest to identify techniques in the texts being analysed and the 'paint by numbers' approach that Brass believes is encouraged by the curriculum leads to a lack of time spent in developing the ability of the students to effectively communicate what they found in the texts being analysed. One of my daughters who is currently doing year 12 observes that English teaches students to deconstruct texts but not how to construct a text themselves.

I would like to see a lot more time allocated to helping students become better communicators. We need a curriculum that gives teachers the time and encouragement to do this.

I have lived in every Eastern state of Australia and been either a student or parent of a student in each one. Each state/place has a different vocabulary that is used for education (and also for some other things). I agree that 'report cards' sounds American and I certainly did not use that phrase or hear it when I was at school or more recently as a parent in most places that I have lived. However, it seems to be an extensively used phrase in Sydney.

Let's just accept that in some parts of Australia different language is used for different aspects of education (eg different names for the first year of school and the last year of school). While there are strong similarities between the education systems of each state, they have operated separately from each other for well over 100 years. It is therefore understandable that over time different words are now used to describe the same thing.

Has been,

Perhaps vanna is a North Queenslander or, from what Perkinsy says, a New South Welsh.

If you have any evidence that ranking students’ position in class adds to overall educational achievement, please share it. Most schools I taught in graded by letter, but one graded by a mark out of ten to one decimal place (effectively the same as a percentage). It made no difference to work standard or effort.

Competition existed in every school I taught it. It is a myth that it has gone.

Perkinsy,

Perhaps instead of seeing “report cards” as an assault on my Australianism, I should see it as an assault on my Victorianism. I fear it may be another case like the so-called standard gauge. NSW reneged on the deal with Victoria and SA to have broad gauge in the 1850s, yet managed to get its gauge adopted as the standard throughout the nation 150 years later. I hope that the same does not happen to reports, given that there is no “card” involved.

Chris C
Having smaller class sizes makes no difference if the teaching methods are not good enough.

The decline in maths and science has become so extreme that universities are now describing it as “critical”, and the PISA test does not test for what a student knows. The TIMMS test does, and ranks Australian students below world average.

These students are technologically illiterate, and while the class size for science subjects in many high schools has declined dramatically, the student marks and student interest in science and maths has declined also, due mainly to inadequate teaching methods.

As for English, it was found that about 30% of foreign students applying for permanent residency in Australia could not pass the immigration department’s standard test for English. This is after they had completed a degree at a so-called Australian university. So they could pass a degree at a so-called Australian university without being able to adequately read and write English, and who knows what the standard is for the rest of the students in the country

I have yet to find a teaching who does not place getting "Government funding" as their highest priority, and I really don’t believe teachers would care if the standards for English fall below world average for English speaking countries also.

I agree on the class size thing Vanna, my classes in prep, & primary school in Townsville were never less than 45, & usually more like 50. Every kid in those classes had a reasonable knowledge of the 3Rs by age 7 at the latest.

Granted our teachers had a bit more discipline going for them. Disruptive, or difficult kids got the message rather quickly back then.

It is little wonder that student interest in math & science has declined dramatically. We have virtually no one who can teach it in some senior high schools.

In our 1700 kid, near city, country high we had an average of 65 kids doing math C, & physics in 11 & 12 each year. However for many years, the school had only one teacher who could do, let alone teach math C, & some of the physics.

This may have been OK if he was conscientious, & had the kids interest at heart. Unfortunately he was a union delegate, & that was his main interest. This kept him out of the class room about 15/20% of the time. The year he took long service leave was even worse. The biology teacher, & the lady from the subcontinent, [who's degree must have been one of those mail order ones] who were supposed to do his job, had no chance.

I could show my daughter how to do the work, but she said I didn't do it right, not as "they" wanted it, so she & another girl spent 9 hours every Saturday getting to & from a coaching clinic at QUT. They then helped a few, as did the brilliant kid for who all this stuff was child's play. [Don't you hate those kids] Come to think of it, it's not hate, just envy, & he was a really nice kid.

The rest of those kids, the cream of our local crop, just wasted a couple of years going through the motions.

I don't think our English courses were that bad, but then, with my ability in English, how the hell would I know.