Crabsy,
The reality of our situation can only be apprehended through the heart and God willing you'll rank high among His friends:-). I look forward to your future articles.

salaams

That's understandable, crabsy.

>>Again and again people come up with a statement to the effect that “unless you give rational objective evidence to prove that God exists then you are living in a delusion.” I wanted to show that the empirical evidence they demand is sometimes irrelevant because one can perceive phenomena through non-empirical means (dreams, contemplation of a numinous event in nature, listening to a powerful piece of music, etc.) that are just as real as objective facts encountered through the five senses.<<

Wanting to change the battleground is a well-established ploy whenever the existing one becomes uncomfortable.

But I think you may be fighting the wrong battle. And the manner in which you subvert the English language to your cause is evidence that you are also using the wrong weapons.

For a start, it is intensely unfair of anybody to describe you as delusional, if your only crime is to be unable to produce "rational objective evidence to prove that God exists". The only delusion you could possibly be accused of would be if you actually believed that there is such evidence.

So, it is pretty pointless to pick a fight with those who "demand" such evidence, since both you, and they, know there is none.

The other reason you should avoid such battles, is that it leads you to make statements like this:

>>...one can perceive phenomena through non-empirical means (dreams, contemplation of a numinous event in nature, listening to a powerful piece of music, etc.) that are just as real as objective facts encountered through the five senses<<

Those phenomena are of course real, in the sense that they clearly can exist for some people. That is black-and-white, yes-or-no, does-it-or-does-it-not stuff.

But I dispute that they are "just as real as objective facts encountered through the five senses". That is a use of the word "real" that extends it into a comparative, which renders it effectively meaningless.

"More real" and "less real" are nonsensical concepts.

Once again you are distorting the language, which only serves to to further confuse the issue.

Yes Pericles, I have to agree that I used poor language that time.

<<But I dispute that they are "just as real as objective facts encountered through the five senses". That is a use of the word "real" that extends it into a comparative, which renders it effectively meaningless. "More real" and "less real" are nonsensical concepts.>>

I stand corrected. Maybe a better wording would have been: "Those phenomena too are real, but perceived by different means than are objective facts encountered through the five senses."

hey gratefull
would appriciate your casting your eye over this
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4184&page=0

need some fact checking

[i quoted the words of the prophet
want to make sure i got the context right]

anyhow now to reading the other replies

happy new christ year

crabsby ..have you read this twaddle
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=11380&page=0

it seems he is doing some strange twists
and i cant figure out where he is leading with this

by the same measure..im frustrated..that people dont get god
god is simply speaking..the logic...reflected in/of everything

pericules asks for proof
well..look at a dead thing
its egsactly like the living thing
but gods life spirit..has moved on from it

and nothing man can do to bring it back..
but make another..using gods method..[love/sex]

life comes only from life
you ask for a asign thats it

science claims life from NOT life
but cant manage to make the idea breath

you ask dear brother...for proof..of god
i ask for proof of not god

you have belief in science method
well get it to prove its theory

even this delusion of evolution...is without fact
little wonder people like crabsby..need to grasp straws

god egsists...in us all...and outside all of us
life is his sign..no life...
means an absense of god..sustaining it to live

we may know god..by study of the nurture inherant in nature
science didnt make life
it cant even create life..in the lab..or outside it

surely in this is a sign for the thinking man
as our dear messanger mahamoud revealed
first make one like it

may peace be upon them all
[upon you all]

realise who makes your heart beat
who makes your lungs beath
who makes the dna replicate rna..who does it all for all of us

by intelect..of faith...know the logic/logus
that via his light..sustains life into love

in the end..we all get we are a part of the light
but not the light

[for god is one]...

fullstop

see the light is within...and without
inside us...and outside of us

egsists...as well as insists

Yes OUG, its a beutiful description of Mary and the birth of Jesus.

Crabsy,

I think you would be interested in the following lessons in tasawwuf (sufism): http://www.shadhiliteachings.com/tariq/?act=file&id=3

salaams