How about a big round of "thanks" for the taxpayers of Australia who make all this possible?

Amicus,

I read this article when GrahamY first put it up on Saturday, before briefly taking it down again. I did not get the idea that it was a taxpayer funded organisation. The article's sixth paragraph, says:

"The National Congress of Australia’s First Peoples
has been established as an independent organization
intent on creating a legacy. ..."

Perhaps you know more as to its funding than I do, or than the article says. I had intended to put it up on the index page on Saturday with these lines from Kevin Gilbert that seemed broadly in tune with the article:




"The pen is mightier than the sword
but only when
it sows the seeds of thought
in minds of men
to kindle love and grow
through the burnt page
destroyed by huns and vandals in their rage

The sword in russet hues lies mouldering
its sharp and shiny edge now dulled by peace
and blood-lust sated between customers
like some old time worn harried whore
well past her prime
awaiting some brute hand to wield her hate

The bugler sounds, the drummer sounds his beat
bright swords refurbished tilt to marching feet
gay ribands, uniforms and epaulets
entrap the eye, the soul till madness sway
them to the dance of death the piper plays

The pens in great tragedienne lines extol
the meritorious lie, the grand excuse
justification for this carnivore
called man who can't evolve in his estate
clothed and fed, his universities
and halls of learning yet avail him nought
the jungle beasts enact the same stage plays
one kind, one king, one death the same
differing nought for death wears the same cloak
regardless of technology or sport."




Not being a person with any indigenous heritage, that is about the extent of the contribution I can see myself making to this discussion at this point, other than to observe that to the extent that the National Congress of Australia's First Peoples is not a creature of government, government will be unable to shut it down if it is genuinely supported within the community.

FG who funds it?

My understanding it is yet another taxpayer funded device.

fg .. there you go, government funded, but they "hope" to get private funding as well, sometime.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/05/02/2887983.htm

"Along with government funding, the body hopes to seek finance from the private sector and aims to be self-funding in the medium term."

My understanding is that the government has given $ 26 million over five years, something like that. If somebody gave me $ 26 million, I could become 'self-funding' in a very short time, say five years - and in fact, I would be prepared to give the whole $ 26 million back after five years ;)

There have been so many of these bodies since 1973, the NACC, the NAC, right up through ATSIC, and it would be fascinating to find out if any of them have ever come up with a really valuable idea. Live in hope !

Meanwhile, twenty five thousand Indigenous people have put in the effort to graduate from universities around the country, almost all since the early seventies. By 2020, the total could easily be close to fifty thousand, one in every seven adults, and (given Michael Dodson's finding that 30 % of all Indigenous people are illiterate) one in every five LITERATE Indigenous person, aged between 20 and 60.

In Indigenous affairs, there always have seemed to be two approaches - either:

* seize opportunities as they constantly arise;

* find excuses for NOT seizing opportunities as they constantly arise.

Clearly, 25,000 graduates have chosen one path, while another 150,000 or so have 'chosen' the other, justified by illiteracy, poverty, history, culture, race and whatever other means can be found to justify doing nothing with one's life.

[TBC]

[cont.]

When I worked in Indigenous student support at the Uni of SA (Kerry's old uni), it used to strike me every year that we could always take in more students - there were always more places than suitable applicants, more opportunities than people taking them up.

When my wife Maria and I tried to go back to her community, we were amazed by the richness of plant and infrastructure, not to mention a brand-new 25-a-side forward-release dairy (a thing of sheer beauty, now demolished after operating for less than four years). And yet people seemed to be doing so little with their assets - in fact, they seemed antagonistic to the notion of possibilities. At their last AGM in 2006, the council members were overjoyed to find that they had maintained the same number of CDEP members through the year - on a community of 12,000 acres of beautiful land, almost drought-proofed.

So I am sure that any grand-titled body worth its salt will have many keen, but very experienced and jaundiced, observers [yes, a lot of grumpy old b@st@ards] who will be struggling to overcome a constant sense of deja vu, all over again.

Joe Lane

Ah well, it's only money. Since that big oaf instigated independence for PNG Australia has been forking out 1.2 million/day to make PNG independent. Now let's see, hmmh, 1.2 mill times 365 times 35 years ? Thank you Labor. xxx PNG.

Right from the start with Tom Calma and co. lobbying for another ATSIC, all Tried and Tested, Aboriginal Victim Industry (AVI) people. With Appropriate, and Continuous Victim Status and Mentality Agendas and Rhetoric.
If people are serious about so called, Aboriginal Advancement, All Legislation and Policies based on Race will Have to be Consigned to the Bureaucratic Rubbish Bin. They just “Don't Work”. Billions of dollars in this area so far. Yet according to the AVI we are, Still the Most Disadvantaged. And so, Round and Round we go.
Arthur Bell. www.whitc.info

Oh God.How much more of this tripe are we expected to play around with? We are sick to death of the clowning.
No more. Please.
Anything to knock more tax-payers dollars for grandstanding bureaucrats that are rapidly taking on the hue of indigenous leaders.

socratease

Strange that you should evoke the name of Charles Perkins who dishonestly proclaimed himself as being one of the stolen generation. I have met one of his contemporaries, a strikingly honest man of some 79 years of age. He told me how he and Charles were raised and educated and neither of them along with a group of some 120 odd half cast children were "stolen" but were rescued by the good white lady at the Old Telegraph Station north of Alice Springs who cared for them with love and kindness.

David

This "first people" is a bit dodgy too, given the trihybrid theory, which suggests that aborigines were the third group of people to arrive.

I always loved that line from Michener’s Hawaii, which goes, “The missionary’s came to Hawaii to do good, & they did very very well".

It always comes to mind when organisations like this one are being discussed.

Regardless of our different heritages we are all Australians, whether we are Origine Aboringine, White Aborigine, or migrated from another land to settle in Australia. We should not have class distinctions which label any group of people as either black, white, arab, chinese, etc. in our country. If a Congress were to be formed it should be by equal numbers of people from all back grounds of people to represent it, not one group of people. For as long as I can remember in my 61 years since my birth at Carlton Victoria, (this made me a white aboriginal) there has always been elements of prejudice in our country. As a child many of us were prejudiced towards the Origine Aborigine's, Italians, Greeks, Maltese and even the Poms (English) who migrated to Australia. In later years prejudices moved to the Asian refugees who come to Australia and now the African refugees. What many of us forget WE ARE ALL AUSTRALIAN PEOPLE NOW. We all have a right and duty of care to respect each other and reside in a peaceful life together as one people, not different groups by different cultures and backgrounds.

As far as the TAFE system in Victoria is concerned, the "white" population are the ones who are disadvantaged. Those of aboriginal descent get in free while the rest have to pay.

David

Right on, Gypsy:

"What many of us forget WE ARE ALL AUSTRALIAN PEOPLE NOW. We all have a right and duty of care to respect each other and reside in a peaceful life together as one people, not different groups by different cultures and backgrounds."

Observing the situations in other countries, France, Romania, etc., I don't think we realise how lucky we are: while it may not be perfect, the interplay between multicultural rights and activities and the common rights and responsibilities as Australians, is workable and equitable. And surely we have to make it work ?

Joe

Heyyy...let's then have an 'Islamic Peoples congress' and.. an "Asian peoples congress" and....

In fact.. why not let them all try to make laws and see how it works out?

The bottom line is...that whenever political organizations are based on skin color or race... it exists for the furtherance of that race or color. (when they are in a minority status)

The bottom line is...that whenever political organizations are based on skin color or race... it exists for the furtherance of that race or color. (when they are in a minority status)
ALGOREisRICH,
I'd add to this "and anti-white agenda".

A couple of weeks ago, I read a piece of American history by a lady who told the story of the migration of the negros from the South to more hospitable (to them) and prosperous north. It took place over a period of around fifty years starting during the first world war. It was generally the more educated ones who moved.

If you look at what is happening in the Aboriginal communities around Australia, the same thing occurs, particularly those of mixed race who see a future for themselves among the white community where there are opportunities for better education and employment.

David

For a comprehensive summary of the above see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migration_%28African_American%29

David

David,

Yes, that move in 'settled' Australia tended to take place after the War and up to the late sixties, and from areas near cities. For example, people escaped from government settlements such as Point McLeay and Point Pearce here in SA, from the late forties onwards, with a flood of people leaving in the late fifties. At first people moved to country towns, but from there they sought better job opportunities in the city, so a sort of two-step migration process occurred. But by the late fifties, many young families were already growing up in the cities.

And those young people grew up familiar with urban living, and with living and working alongside non-Indigenous people. Not surprisingly, the inter-marriage rate has been very high, 90-95 %, particularly amongst working people. Hence, a massive rise in the overall birth-rate since the mid-eighties. Hence, a massive rise in the number of Indigenous kids in cities enrolling at Year 12 level after 1999 (up five times by 2010). Hence, record university enrolments each year since 2005 :)

Hence, twenty five thousand Indigenous university graduates, almost all of whom have been through this urbanising experience.

Clearly, this is one pathway that has been fruitful. Can remote community living match it - has it really got anything going for it the way things are going now ? I don't think so.

So any national body which claims to have any responsibility for shaping policy must take into account what people have actually done with their lives, and where they are going now - with what is working, and what is not. And move on from wallowing in the past - never forget it, but never let it drag you down.

Joe

Loudmouth, go straight to the top of the class.
If this is the quintessentiual Loudmouth then may your mouth get louder and louder.
Bleeding hearts will find it hard to digest what the last paragraphs mean.

socratease

The time might also be right to redefine an "Aboriginal".

I will give an example. Because we have an Irish grandfather (actually we have two, but only one is required), if we can find the necessary paper work, the Irish government will grant us Irish citizenship. They will not grant citizenship to my neice or nephews. Even though they have two Irish great grandfathers, they are not eligible for Irish citizenship. I have no offspring.

In a similar fashion, we should not define as Aboriginal, those descendents of Aboriginals who lack at least one Aboriginal grandfather.

There are too many pseudo Aboriginals getting sustenance from the Aboriginal teat.

David

Dave, you're a brave man - I completely agree with you as does most everyone I know.

However, the ALP back in the 80s enabled any talk of questioning this subject to be howled down by cries of racism.

The problem is, if aboriginals get that diluted, then they are no longer aboriginal they are as mixed up as the rest of the population. Seems they just cannot or do not want to accept that.

This is what happens when you make someone "special".

The aboriginals don't want to lose the benefits they have over the rest of Australians, and we keep pouring it all over them so they quite rightly don't see a need to ever pull themselves out of their miserable existences, many of them, to become an Australian.

Why do we have 2 classes of Australians?

Now wait for the outrage, as the victim industry protect their patch.

Nothing will change .. it doesn't matter how much money you throw at it.

I hope aboriginals rise above the malaise and become a part of mainstream Australia and enjoy the benefits.

I don't hold much hope though as this is yet another institution that will profit best if it suppresses any progress.

On the other hand, rpg, here's a more positive thesis:

* since 1990, of the 300,000 Indigenous people who reached the age of twenty, i.e. adulthood, about 70,000 enrolled at some time at university, and perhaps another ten thousand attempted to enrol in genuine TAFE courses = 80,000. i.e. more than a quarter of the population gave higher education a shot. About 23,000 graduated from university and maybe 5,000 from genuine TAFE courses [i.e. NOT Aboriginal TAFE courses: that might get a few bites] in that time. Another 15,000 are currently enrolled in either university or genuine TAFE courses.

So about a quarter of the total adult population enrolled in higher education in that time, and about half of those have either graduated or are still studying.

So we are not talking about the odd Charlie Perkins here or there making it - 15 % of the entire adult Indigenous population has either made it or are still studying. These are the heroes. They're not sitting around on their backsides feeling sorry for themselves and pretending there are no opportunities for poor
Blackfellows. They are the future. THEY should be driving Indigenous policy, not the hand-out Blackfellows. I don't care about the hand-out Blackfellows, life is too short.

I welcome Indigenous people getting themselves together and taking charge of their own policy initiatives, that would be wonderful - just like the Poles and Dutch and Maltese and Kastellorians and Maoris and Filipinos are doing - and doing without expecting millions to be pumped into persuading them to get off their backsides.

Joe Lane

Joe Lane, another point concerning the definition of who is an Aboriginal.

Consider this. If you look at the number claiming to be Aboriginal in two successive Commonwealth censuses, you will find that there is a significant percentage increase each time. If you apply these figures to a geometric progression, you will find that after we turn over a comparatively small number of generations, almost the whole of the Australian population will be eligible to claim Aboriginality. This is not just conjecture, it is an incontrovertible fact. I wonder what will happen when we get to that point.

David

Joe I think that's a wonderful thing all those young Australians getting on with life and stepping aside from the obvious and easy route to wasted lives. That's the kind of reconciliation that makes sense and I'm more than happy for the government to pour money in it now, since it will not be needed in years to come as these young people join the community and no longer need "special treatment", as a Melbourne singer says.

I do also agree with David VK3etc, that there is another way many people are going and that is to declare aboriginality and thus reap benefits, just for that declaration.

They talk about first peoples, a term borrowed, or stolen, from North America (perhaps they owe someone an apology, but I digress). In North America you cannot just declare your aboriginality and get the benefits you do here, you have to provide proof, beyond just a few loose connections - I doubt anyone in Tasmania would survive the prerequisits if they applied here, way too tenuous.

Reconcilliation seems to be understood by Australian as helping aboriginals join the community and get out of the aweful conditions many are in, as Joe says, many are. To some other aboriginals, it appears to be code for, put your hands out and try to hold as much money as we can fill them with.

Pretty basic, yes, but that's the perception in the community - this new body we all suspect, will attempt to retain the status quo because that's their power base. If all the aboriginals move away from camps, abandon their current destructive lifestyles and join the mainstream, then there is no need for this body.

Most Australians question the need for such bodies, it is divisive and racist in its nature, a misguided reaction to the greedy few.

RPG. You have hit the nail on the head. I couldn't agree more. I have just come back from a trip to the NT and I must say that things are looking up in some areas compared to what they were a few years ago. Alice Springs is still a bit of a worry, but has definitely improved over what it was like 10 years ago.

David

VK3AUU why is it that you feel you have the right to redifine who is or isn't Aboriginal, and why is it that you take offense if your attitude is considered racist?

rpg, you object to the use of the term 'first peoples' claiming it to be a stolen term - yet you do not appear to object to the fact that Australia as a national entity is based on stolen lands, and that you directly benifit from this theft.

There is a certain meanness of spirit here. rpg reconcilliation is not about your version of assimilation and 'helping aboriginals join the community and get out of the aweful conditions many are in'. Have you not understood that these awful conditions you lament are directly caused by colonisation, oppression and the mean spirited racist attitude of blaming some fundamental flaw in Indigenous Australians like those espoused on posts like this.

Before you arc up and the dummy hits the floor, get enlightened on the real history of Australia and its governments heavy handed policies that has ensured that many Indigenous Australians are still battling incredible odds.

I certainly wish the National Congress well as Australia's first peoples need a say in how their country is managed.

G'day, Aka, you took your time :)

I fully agree with you, that 'Australia's first peoples need a say in how their country is managed.' and for that, they certainly need an effective, and dedicated, body of highly capable Indigenous leaders. There is too much as stake this time around for yet another bunch of talkers and rip-off merchants.

Seriously, I think that the Indigenous population is becoming so fragmented, in terms of space and class, that another ten years of inaction - where everybody says, 'Oh yeah, ATSIC [or whatever], they're probably focussing on some other mob, we never hear about them' - will see very sharp distinctions between Indigenous groups, remote/rural vs urban, employed vs unemployed/unemployable, which may never again be bridgeable.

When Maria and I were making Aboriginal Flags back in the early seventies, we thought that it might help to pull people together, to provide a means of unity and solidarity, given that the population was so broken up, across nearly ten million square kilometres, under eight different administrations, with extremely diverse histories over 10-180 years and - truth be told - no former history of any unity whatever, and extreme parochialism, group against group. So we sent dozens of the Flags all over the country, and overseas as well and in her lunch hour, Maria used to take them to visiting artists like B.B. King and Roberta Flack and Nina Simone and the wonderful Buffy Sainte-Marie, who displayed hers over her piano at her concerts: she would ask the crowd, 'I suppose you know what this stands for ?'.

It's not for me to say but I do feel that the Flag did temporarily give people a common tie and it's really a tragedy that some groups are now devising their own p!ssy flags, pushing their own chauvinism and actively fragmenting themselves from other groups.

As long as some new national grouping is active, dedicated, and prepared to deal with the hard realities, there might be a chance. Otherwise it will be no-business as usual, flubbing along, all talk and no policy.

Joe Lane

aka .. it's not "your" country anymore than it is mine .. it is ours, and the sooner you get that, the sooner reconciliation will take place. As long us you keep up this us and them attitude, nothing will ever change, I suspect you don't want it to and that you're very happy to perpetually beat the victim drum.

We're here, we're not leaving, and we pay the bills, all of them.

"Before you arc up and the dummy hits the floor, get enlightened on the real history of Australia"

I could say the same for you. The history, right now, is that the past is the past, we can't change it, we can't keep looking backwards as you perpetually want to do. Australia has not been in colonial circumstances for over 100 years .. why do you hang on to this concept?

Is it comforting to have a scapegoat for your "people's " problems? Less and less do Australians accept this is our fault, it's your fault, we are all responsible for our own happiness and our own lives.

What do you expect to accomplish with this attitude?

Nothing moves forward, because you won't let it, it doesn't matter what the rest of us do because so many aboriginals are stuck, as you are, in the "we're victims" mentality - not all, but you certainly always lean on that.

We can't help you out of that rut, you have to do it yourselves, stop saying it's everyone else's fault, the bottom line it that you are the only ones capable of lifting yourselves out. As long as you blame someone else, it will never end.

"many Indigenous Australians are still battling incredible odds", so join the rest of us and stop "battling" us.

How much do we have to give, how many times, before you stop spitting in our faces and accept that you are what you are.

aka "rpg, you object to the use of the term 'first peoples' claiming it to be a stolen term - yet you do not appear to object to the fact that Australia as a national entity is based on stolen lands, and that you directly benifit from this theft"

I didn't steal your land, nor did my ancestors.

Aboriginals evidently did not understand the concept of ownership, so how how can anything be stolen from them. I get your point though, like Amicaus says, you are grasping onto the victim title as hard as you can to justify your hatred, and lack of progress.

Stop hating us .. we might all get somewhere, you're all happy to take our money I notice.

So what does reconciliation mean to you, not anyone else, just you aka?

rpg, I will respond to your question even though I am disapointed that you did not respond to mine. For me the basis necessary for reconcilliation is Respect.

Respect from non-Indigenous Australians towards Indigenous Australians and reasons for Indigenous Australians to Respect non-Indigenous Australians. While there are many instances of such Respect occurring there remain many instances where Indigenous Australians would like to be able to Respect other Australians but it is just not possible as their behaviour is so poor - and Respect is the basis for Trust.

Re the issue of money it is a misconception that Indigenous Australians do not pay their way. The GST means that everyone pays tax, mining royalty comes from Aboriginal land etc. Amicus and rpg, you must have a lot of money the way you suggest that Indigenous funding all comes out of your pocket.

The Mabo decision makes it clear that Aboriginals did understand the concept of land ownership, and that colonisation disrupted this ownership - illegally.

Amicus, I have never spat in your or anyone elses face and it is you who are claiming the victim status here. Your refusal to acknowledge the simple truth of the overwhelming devastation caused by colonisation - Indigenous people were not considered citizens until the 1960s - and the ongoing impact of govt policies, indicate that you are clinging to the poor agrieved non-Indigenous persona who somehow deserves more than others. Your attitude implies that it is all the fault of the original people for not simply fading away into history or being absorbed into society to become just like you (I shudder at the thought).

If people would like Respect from Indigenous people, I suggest that they must first act in a way that is deserving of respect.

"If people would like Respect from Indigenous people, I suggest that they must first act in a way that is deserving of respect."

right, and if you want respect from Australians, stop accusing us of stealing ..

I'm a recent arrival in Australia, no one told us when we came here we all had to assume the guilt of colonials long gone.

you need to remove that chip from your shoulder before anything is going to progress.

I doubt you will, it's too good a wicket isn't it?

The "big excuse" for aboriginals in your position, "it's someone else's fault", it even might be, but it's your attitude to it that will either help or hinder you.

I don't have a problem, nor do "my people", you and yours seem to.

Anyway, this is pointless,you just go around in circles hating and whining, that it's someone else who has to pay, to change to respect to whatever .. when it's you who needs to change. Eventually Australians will get sick of paying, getting spat on called names and blamed for everything, by then you will want to have worked it out, or the gravy train will stop anyway. It can't go on forever.

Aka, if you look carefully at the Mabo decision, you will see that Eddie Mabo was a Torres Straight Islander and their customs regarding land ownership were different to mainlanders. The judgement was actually in error as it should only have applied to TI's, but it hasn't been challenged so it remains the law.

David

VK3AUU, I think that there are many legal brains that have challenged the Mabo decision, and as you say it stands as law. The British based law found that there was never terra nullius.

Amicus, you appear to object to my attitude because I challenge you to think about your attitude. I find it intriguing that as a 'new arrival' you take it on youself to be so judgemental on something that you obviously know little about.

You chose to come to Australia and you live on land that was never legally obtained by the crown. If you chose not to educate youself on the history of Australia it is your issue, not mine.

I am interested though in why you left your country of birth, as an Indigenous Australian the thought of leaving one's country is a difficult concept to understand.

Perhaps if your attitude softened you might feel less need for the rather illfounded and paranoid belief that Indigenous Australians dislike you so much. It is all about Respect.

When an indigenous person demands "respect" he/she really means more money. They dont do anything to earn it but that doesnt apply if everything they see and try to get their hands on are really theirs kept in care for them by white man.We make the darn things sell them to others, then pay taxes for what we have and earn all because this is the way wealth is generated for them.
What a poor perception they have of themselves. Victimisation is their ATM.

socratease

No socratease, Respect means just that. It is a bit concerning that you can interpret Respect to mean money - rather odd really. Please let me know the dictionary you are using so I can avoid it.

It is also a little sexist to insist that it is all about the 'white man'. Life is not centred around the 'white man'.

The views you express are not based on reality and only serve to illustrate your rather sad and blinkered view of the world.

With all these wonderous things you say the 'white man' makes, sells and pays taxes on, why are the social and health statistics for Indigenous Australians still in a world embarrasing state. Perhaps attitudes such as yours and some others on this thread are the pernicious cause of such disparity.

I know of dozens of Indigenous people who would love nothing more than to engage in productive discussion here on OLO, and not just on Indigenous issues and affairs. Many would also like to publish their own articles here for others to read and comment on. One need only read through the comments here to understand why they would not bother.

rainer .. so we should do what?

Not express opinions because there are some delicate petals in the country who might be offended?

Do they feel victimised? (is that training that does that?)

You underline the points made, that aboriginals expect a leg up they expect "special treatment" because they are aboriginals not because they are just people.

Is there anything they can do without having dancing girls sweep before them? Without having the area cleared of any comments that might question or disturb their harmony, Sarcastic yes, but what do you expect? If they cannot stand up for themselves in any other way but to be mollycoddled, then you are saying they cannot stand on their own two feet without a support mechanism .. yet some people say they "ruled the land" had "nations", what a load of bollocks.

It's a crutch, and thank you for enhancing the point well done

It should not matter one way or another what comments are made .. if they truly feel Australian. Clearly though, like you they prefer to have a chasm between themselves and ordinary Australians. They like to be propped up and have that whole victim thing going. I note aka made similar comments in another post.

So clearly you need to have censorship for our indiginous countrymen and women to feel appreciated and encouraged, what a farce.

It's a bit hard to respect that attitude isn't it?

By the end of this year, there will be around twenty six and a half thousand Indigenous university graduates - overwhelmingly, they will be working in the mainstream, especially any new graduates. Between them, they would be earning around one and a half to two billion dollars each year in salaries. Each year, another fifteen or sixteen hundred Indigenous people graduate from universities, about a quarter at post-graduate level. These people have put in the hard yards, to gain a solid educational foundation, and to be able to contribute far more effectively to Australian society.

By 2020, those numbers could be doubled. By 2035, they could be doubled again. From now on, about half of all young Indigenous people will go on to tertiary study, and most of those will graduate.

So yes, there are many Indigenous people who deserve respect, above and beyond what any human being is entitled to. They have seized the opportunities that are available in plenty, and done something with them. They certainly have my respect and admiration, because after all they will be the dominant Indigenous force in the future, the leaders of tomorrow.

But what will happen to the sit-down, hand-out Blackfellows ? I have no idea and not really much interest either. People choose their own pathways, to a large extent. Graduates have chosen theirs, welfare-Blackfellows have chosen theirs. Who have put effort into their lives, and who haven't ? That's where respect lies.

Joe

rpg, Stop playing the victim card, no one is asking for censurship. You stated that Rainier underlined "the points made, that aboriginals expect a leg up they expect "special treatment" because they are aboriginals" but I could not find it. Perhaps you have misread Rainier's post.

Rainier just pointed out that the Indigenous people who might consider submitting an article could not be bothered when the forum is overrun by people whose mind is closed by their prejudices and paranoia. It sort of lessens the image OLO has of being an intellectual forum.

rpg, you are funny - thinking that you can determine what it means to feel "truly feel Australian" and lumping all Indigenous Australians into one stereotype. It is like me saying that ALL non-Indigenous Australians are racist, when it simply is not true.

Loudmouth, I know of many "sit-down, hand-out" whitefellas. Some of them are getting a wage too - few pollies and public servants spring to mind.

A person's worthiness of respect is not the achievement of Western education. A person can have degrees and even a PhD but it is not their sole worth, or even the sole marker of intellect. One of the smartest people I knew was totally illiterate, another person who I was in awe of their intellect and humanity had a degree and was a tax auditor. These two people were close friends - their friendship was based on Respect. The first lived to be an Aboriginal Elder, the other was a well respected Elder white man. I know/knew a few people, black and white, of high intellect and great humanity who were/are alcoholics.

I also know people of significant intellegence and compassion who are not and have never been in any employment except maybe for mundane or casual employment.

I do like your numbers though Joe, particularly as excellence at Western education does not mean that an Indigenous person becomes aligned to mainstream Australia

Aka,

"Loudmouth, I know of many "sit-down, hand-out" whitefellas. Some of them are getting a wage too - [a] few pollies and public servants spring to mind."

And should we lift a finger for these loafers ? I don't think so.

Aka, my dear, we have to get away from this 'tu quoque - you too' game: I've argued with people who play it all of my life: one raises a criticism of (a), someone else points out a similar act of corruption/incompetence/bastardry on the part of (b), as if that answers that. Well, it does, in the sense that if you shouldn't dedicate yourself to (b), then why the hell should you dedicate yourself to (a) either, if both are equally corrupt/incompetent/a pack of b@stards ? A pox on both of them.

Corruption is corruption, whoever and wherever, and no alternative example can mitigate it - Black or White, we should not support corruption. Or incompetence. Or bastardry.

Yes, I agree with you about respect - but my point was that people deserve respect according to the amount of effort they put into their lives - I don't care if they work hard to become expert emu-carvers, or world peace resolvers, or ant-counters, as long as they make an effort, as long as they TRY - but conversely, I have not the slightest feeling for people who don't, who live off others, (Black OR white), who drain the efforts of others. Christ almighty, there are so many of those ! A pox on these people, too. The pity is that so many of them are 'leaders' (Black AND white).

And I think you know just what I mean ;)

Joe

Of course I meant 'emu-EGG carvers' - emus never stand still long enough to let you carve them.