Peter a manifestation of the mentality flowing from those who refuse to recognise sin is their inability to see things as they are.

So human behaviour that is insensitive and ignorant and sometimes brutal, i.e unloving, is labelled as racist, sexist, ageist, bullying etc... and that it is not as it should be!

And when things are not as they should be we develop state employed tribunals and advocacies that say " you must not do this or say that.." whilst being very well paid and feeling the glow of rational warmth, if there is such a thing. People are denounced by slogans and this has the effect of making people docile and scared to opine on social issues as they really are. It really is Animal Farm stuff.

This glimpse of the limitations of rational thought encourages me to apply my own intellectual ability to see where fits our wonderful story of a Creator God revealing himself in human life through time. It is a story of promises, blessings and curses but with a reality underpinning them that reveals who and what we are and what we can do, for good and bad. The agency is forgiveness, not condemnation by sloganeering labels.

In a time when the world is subject to dramatic change, and associated opportunity, risk and danger, it is rather pathetic to see progressive thought / politics stuck on gay marriage and abortion rights. It has nothing to say on human flourishing or development that encapsulates the whole person and all persons attaining a balanced life - a life available to all that contains the joy and peace of the Risen Lord. A life to be chosen once there is a desire for it and the divine spark in us kindles.

You are writing good work Peter.

sadly/peter..you base your premise..in error
and quote only a partial quote..thus follow the..wrong conclusion

2..You..who answer prayer,..to you..all people will come.

3 When we were overwhelmed..by sins,..you forgave..our transgressions.

4 Blessed are those..you choose and bring near..to live..in your courts!

We are filled..with the good things..of your house,of your holy temple

or try this..more correct version

<<Iniquities prevail against me:
[as for]..our transgressions,..thou shalt purge them away.>>

now purge..is an active..process
till we repent...AND start redeeming
we are only honouring..good[god]..with our lips
[and remain in inequity]

i explained it more/fully..here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4008&page=0

that covers..how we 'purge'...the WILL to love..sin

also..that line should be read..in conjunction of

Ezekiel 16:63 Then,..when I make atonement..for you for all you have done,..you will remember and be ashamed..and never again open your mouth..because of your humiliation,..declares the Sovereign LORD.'"

you should not..base your opinion..on single sources
http://bible.cc/psalms/65-3.htm

anyhow..i shall finish reading your topic...in time
the heading at least sounds...right

but its we who must work...at atonement...[at-one-meant]
you are not alone...[al-one]

god judges no-one

"Peter a manifestation of the mentality flowing from those who refuse to recognise sin is their inability to see things as they are."

Perhaps you should turn the mirror around.

Which posters so far have not recognised sin or human flaws? The argument is about whether religion has any influence on the prevalence of sin and whether human nature needs the supernatural to provide a meaningful and peaceful co-existence.

By Christian accounts, God created man with sin so he must have been prepared for the consequences of free will and confident that the natural good he bestowed would win over the evil even if we don't get it right all of the time. Just because one person commits an evil act such as Port Arthur, or those who perpetrated the Holocaust etc does not mean every human is capable of such evil. They are aberrations given most people do not go around killing off each other willy nilly.

If humans are perceived purely in terms of 'sin' as some religious folk are apt, it does not explain the great good that people do with or without the presence of God.

peter..i have read..your article..
but/cant find..a..punch line..to reply to

there are points..of course
that..i feel..are off..the mark

<"..We have rights..because..we have done-away..with..any idea of community..justice..or duty..to others.">

this is..of course debatable..

what are drug..or speed laws..[homo..or abortion...or euthinasia...regulations..

but community..moralists..seeking..some form of..communal punishment
either seeing it..as their duty..or ours

or..<"..But what if..our sins..are stronger..than us?">

well thats comparing..apples with grapes
[who has the right*]..to judge anyone...

what is sin?
by who's measure..?

there are stronger...and lessor sins

[one of the worst...is adultery...im not talking about cheating on the misses...but..the*church...missrepresenting...jesus's teachings]

take the deciete..of jesus...dying..so we..can sin..[being some sacrificial...goat..[lamb...for us to sin...and be forgiven]

jesus saw no sin

then..the lie of a day of judgment
there is no judgment-day...[jesus return..confirmed that]

and while were at it...his returning...was for..'these days'
[this..{his}..generation..'shall not pass'..etc]..

to have people be decieved..he is comming back
as some wrathfilled god..to judge us..is absurd

he was man..[born of woman]
he died...and returned...

said to even..a thief..on a cross..beside him.

''this day..you shall be in heaven'
[or words to that affect]

so revealing..then proving..
there is no future..RESERECTION..'day'

yet those..[the rock]..upon who..this malformed body of christianity..is built...[that drink wine....calling it..'his blood'

hang his mortal remains..on the walls
saying..behold..he died so/you can sin

its all just too absurd...
little wonder..its rejected..in this day and age

its dogma...

[jesus came to heal..'the fathers divided house']
not to..build..a new religeon..

he came to reveal..so much more*
but whats the use..its the blind leading the blind

<<This is not..about petty morality..or even about compulsion
but what things..are closest to our heart.>>.nails it

those..loving to sin..shall*..sin
regardless if we..'forgive' them

write..rev 22;11..on..our heart

till we WANT*to..actually try..to do better
its just not going to happen

let the tares..grow with the wheat..

our life choices..determine...our own*harvest...
at our..*own passing-over..[as i have tried to explain]

<<Modern liberalism..tells us that..it is up to each individual..to choose..>>..and thus is..the truth

<<and that..we have no right..to make judgments.>>
lest we be judged..*by the same measure

god dont judge
its best..we learn that..here/now

simply love..good....by loving neighbour

Pelican

Human flaws are to sin what "I made a mistake" is to wrong doing. Fancy words that avoid wrongness of act and offload it to the whim of physco - socio behaviour. As such it avoids the seeking of forgiveness.

God created man and saw his creation as "very good". Adam (mankind) was free to act and in his freedom he acted in sin. And it is so in every human being born across the span of human existence on earth.

Goodness is in man, as God exclaimed after his creation that all he made "was very good". The human evil (sin) in his behaviour occurs in the absence of the good in the act. Hence goodness, being of man, is in all men and women so is not limited to the people of God. Their inheritance in a living faith in the God of Promises, in the here and now, is a joy and peace of heart amidst the turmoil of an active life in service. That is where you see the saintliness of people like Sr Mary McKillop.

cheers

Rhian
I have just returned to my desk to find your considered and helpful comment. The piece was adapted from a sermon and I was worried that it was too polemical. Of course freedom is primary in Scripture, but it has a different source to that of the freedom we celebrate in secular society that has no basis. The issue of freedom as regards secular power is quite different from the personal kind that was the focus of my article. The Christian obeys the laws of the country until they obviously run counter to the freedom of the gospel.
Peter Sellick