Are there also private school ideologues?

This is one of the most dishonest posts in recent memory.

The issue is not about the average spending on schools. It's about the different needs of students in different socio-economic circumstances, and the great discrepancy of resources available to the most privileged and the most disadvantaged schools, whether government or non-government.

The present system works on the basis of 'to those who hath, more shall be given'. To think that public funding is given to the most wealthy schools in the country is a disgrace, as shown by the recent figures on the profit these schools are making, while still accepting money from the public purse.

Private schools work because most parents willing to invest in a private education are motivated to give their offspring the best chances at future success.

Public school students with like minded parents will most likely be that systems higher achievers because those people will nuture and encourage their kids.

Private schools work because there is usually better management of funding.

Private schools work because there are usually better controlled higher behavioural standards with persistent recalcitrants likely to be expelled.

Private schools work because these factors make learning and teaching easier and more effective.

Wish I had a dollar for every time I heard the words, "I'd love to send him/her/them to a private school but I can't afford it"

I'm tired of AEU bleatings about Private vs Public. They ought to concentrate on getting classrooms in order - 20 pupil maximum with separate classes for slow learners where the basic 3Rs rule (a kid who can actually READ can learn all about Aboriginal culture or to speak Japanese LATER if he/she chooses).
Get segregation of uncontrollable and persistant trouble makers(Social Services should be called in) and more effective disciplinary tools at teacher's disposal.

THEN ensure all TEACHERS are up to scratch. There're some who need to go back to school themselves.

These measures will likely cost.

However taxpayers funding the education of tomorrows workforce, citizens and leaders want value for money. As an employer for instance, I want job applicants who can actually READ & WRITE. Someone who follows directions would be nice too. Guess what? Privately educated people consistently outshine the public school sector in this regard. Surprise! NOT!

Sure - we probably need to invest more in Education but if that extra investment produces more of the same - well the Ministers for Education and Staff may as well take a few junkets, oops I mean Study Tours to faraway exotic places or paper bags down to the club and put it through the pokies. At least we'd see some return from the pokies ...

Well said and argued Godo. The kinds of arguments used by the author of this piece are ideologically driven. What a hide he has portraying those who support public education as 'ideologues'. What was it a great teacher once said about first removing the planks from one's own eyes, before attributing fault to others?
Cambo

Regardless of what beliefs you hold regarding the right or wrong re the Public vs. Private education debate, the simple fact regarding the AEU figures is true. The figures presented do not tell the truth. Such distortion does no credit to those presenting it and such behaviour certainly does not help the debate.

ALL education funding needs to be looked at and blaming one sector or the other for the problems is disingenuous.

Some genuine debate please.

If the AEU realised that the Labor party is just a swindle for the professionals, Lawyers, Solicitors and such, who have hijacked the Labor party and who had hijacked the Liberal Party, and who are destroying the economy, destroying the living conditions of the workers and those of small business, and are just sending Australia into that "3rd world" concept with the "all resources" exporting, bringing in as imports all the goods that we used to manufacture in Australia previously - Mostly before 1970, A system of destruction of Australia is well under way, and we will be known as just another "3rd world country", so if these parties are allowed to continue, that will be our status. We need a new party where integrity, intelligence and loyalty to our country is imperative.

Oh Devine how well you speak of the private education system. Yes this may be true but do they deal with wholesale disadvantaged students? .. NO.
Do they deal with students with behavioural problems?
Yes they just pass them on to the public system.
Do they deal with students in remote locations? No that is normally passed on to School of the Air (government run and funded). The list can go on. Yes private schools do occassionaly deliver a reasonable product but this is usually at a huge cost to the public system

I find it hard to decide which I find more unpleasant: the AEU who blame all difficulties on funding but accept no responsibility for their own behaviour on the one hand and the revolting article that sees perfection in the 'Independent' and Roman Catholic schools and utter incompetence in the public sector.

Both need to face the fact that totally irrespective of whether a student attends a public or a sectarian school the standards of mathematics (call it numeracy if it turns you on) and literacy are poor. In maths australian students are woefully weak compared to many countries. In algebra they are below the gobal average.

It follows that the biggest problems in Australian school education lies across ALL school types and must hence be caused by organisations that overarch the trumpery haggling between 'public' and 'private'. The problems lie in the area of syllabus, assessment and teacher 'training'. Subject syllabi determined by the various Boards of Study are weak or very weak across the whole nation. Being at a 'private' school will not save a student from that problem. Assessment systems vary from just adequate to totally insane (in Queensland. Teacher training fails to ensure that the future teachers know even the basics of the subjects they are going to teach, and there is almost NO hard nosed training on how to actually operate in the often harsh realities of the classroom.

This afternoon I shall tutor 3 students separately. Two from a 'private' school, one State. All in either Year 11 or 12. It will make no difference - all of them will be woefully weak in old Year 8 and 9 maths.
It's the syllabi, the syllabi and the syllabi. This childish haggle between public and 'private' is a haggle about a second order issue. As a consequence the really big overarching issues of syllabi standards, assessment structures and teacher training are being let of the hook.

Why don't we sell all schools so they can be all private schools, and real private schools with no govt; input.

The AEU argument has been nonsense since the day it was devised. It diverts attention from the AEU’s failure to obtain decent conditions for its own members in the various state and territory schools, which, to be fair, is a failure not only of the organisation itself but also of its members - teachers in general - who often whinge about their workload but are reluctant to do anything about it.

However, when the author says, “to simply continue to throw taxpayer dollars at public schooling systems that are grossly inefficient”, he is saying nonsense. I spent 33 years as a teacher. I never saw any money “thrown” at the system. It was better staffed in the 1980s than it is now, but the decline in staffing is due primarily to the last Liberal government of the state which removed 6,787 desperately needed full-time equivalent teachers between 1992 and 1998. The Labor government has rightly restored all the stolen primary teachers, but only one third of the missing secondary teachers.

Despite this, Victorian teachers voted for an EBA in 2004 that actually made their workloads worse. Then, in 2008, they voted for an EBA that restored the 300-minute instructional day, which, for complicated mathematical reasons, meant a reduction in the number of periods taught – yet, not one school I know of has actually implemented the required 300-minute instructional day, so teachers continue to teach too many periods when it is their own hands not to. Teachers are their own worst enemies. It is far easier to attack the federal government than to take the industrial and political action needed to restore the conditions stolen from them by retrospective legislation 18 years ago. It is even easier to attack the federal government than to demand in their own schools the implementation of the EBA they actually voted for in 2008.

Of course, if the parents of private school children had really wanted more state aid, they had the option of voting DLP 40 years ago. They did not do so. They live with the consequences.

"Ian Dalton is executive director of the Australian Parents Council, the national organisation that represents parents of students attending independent and Catholic schools."

I am SO sick of organisations with dishonest names. The so-called Australian Parents Council is no more representative of Australian parents in general than the Catholic's 'World Youth Day' was representative of world youth.

That rant off my chest, I would really like to see education funding provided on the basis of need, across the board.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11146#187159

Cambo, Yes, there are "private school ideologues". They are in the Red/green/getup/labour/socialist alliance. They in power, favour funding to Catholic private schools &/or other independent schools, that the Loony, Left, Ruling elite's children go to.

The LNP favour funding to private schools, that are considered to be more conservative, that their children go to.

Pot, meet Kettle.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11146#187169

Godo, read the above.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11146#187172

divine_msn, Great post, but wait, there's more, the problems with the public schools that you spoke of were deliberately created by the very same Communists, now bleating for more funding, with their anti family, pro child abuse & neglect policies.

Between 1945 & 1965 our education system was infinitely more successful than it is now. It has been "Progressively" failing ever since.

http://www.savethemales.ca/160303.html "school of darkness" Communist activity in teachers unions, academia, education bureaucrookracy.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11146#187176

Cambo, the LNP, or any non communists are "Raving Right Wing" ideologues but the Red/green/getup/labour/socialist Alliance are somehow, NOT "Loony, Left Wing" ideologues.

Please Explain?

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11146#187181

rational-debate, spot on mate.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11146#187183

merv09, Agreed, but i think we need a protest organisation first. Bring back "Cracker Night" Friday, 05/11/2010.

Candide, you had better get sick of the P&C associations then.

Recently, I was asked to stand in for the delegate from my kids P&C to the regional body. I did so, only to see if it was the same as another district regional body I had attended as delegate for a couple of years, some years ago.

It was no different. A group of middle aged lady school teachers, running the so called P&C association as a support body for teachers. In both regions I was left in absolutely in no doubt, that as a non teacher, & a male, I was doubly unwelcome.

Chris, when teachers attend a place of work for 37.5 hours a week, for 48 weeks a year, you can start that sob story, & not before.

Oh, & don't give us that rubbish about how much work they do at home. I may even believe you if you claim 5 or 10% do some work at home, but having lived with a number of them in Sydney, for many years, that story won't wash.

Most of our primary school kids would be better off with last years high school graduates, with a six months army method of instruction course, teaching them, than they are with the opinionated lazy bunch we have being overpaid in our schools today.

Hasbeen, your rejection of the notion that teachers do work at home (based on your experience living with a couple of slackers in Sydney once upon a time) is a little absurd.

In a standard teaching week at my school, teachers have 250 minutes (5 periods) of non-contact time out of a paid working week of 25 hours (note that school starts at 8:30 and finishes at 3:10). Take off 50 minutes a week for scheduled meetings and we have 200. In that time, we must plan 1,250 minutes worth of lessons, mark anywhere up to 210 students' work at a time, contact parents, complete the ever-increasing paper trail and generate our own resources. I'm sure plenty of teachers wing it, but come 4:30, when most of my colleagues are heading home, I see only one or two walking out empty-handed. There is no way that work can be done in the time allocated.

This isn't a whinge for more pay, or better conditions or anything like that. It is a statement of fact that contradicts your dismissal of "opinionated, lazy" teachers. Perhaps it is your silly and uninformed attitude that had you stonewalled at those P & C meetings. I don't expect to enlighten you here, but I cannot let your ridiculous drivel go unanswered.

Totally agree that the total amount of government (Federal, State/Territory) funding should be used when making comparisons, not just Federal.

Valid points on the use of government funding in public schools, but we should compare apples with apples. Some public schools are probably inefficient and waste money (let's hope they are a minority), but some private schools (and some public ones) do receive other sources of funding, whether it is a corporate or individual donation or some other source.

Finally, something that is not discussed much but some people have mentioned before is the independence of private schools. I realise education is a complex industry and I don't really advocate for an elimination of public funding for private schools but what kind of a system do we have where public money is used in a private enterprise?

Given that private schools receive substantial amounts of public money, are they fully accountable and transparent?

http://currentglobalperceptions.blgospot.com/

Hasbeen,

I would agree 100% regards P&C meetings. They are nothing more than glorified teacher's meetings, which is the reason why so few or any parents ever go to them.

The education system has very little connection with the public, other than using the public as a source of money.

By not telling the public the whole truth regards school funding, the AEU cannot be trusted. The AEU has also opposed every state and federal government for many years, and really some thought should be given to deregulation of that union.

The only way to reform the education system is to tie the money being spent on schools to something like a % of GDP, and to also tie the pay of teachers to student marks.

There would be a major improvement in student marks within a few weeks.

Hasbeen,

Teachers are required to attend their place of employment for 38 hours a week, seven hours a day on non-meeting days and one extra hour on each of the three meeting/PD days. There is no reason for them to attend 48 weeks of the year: normal employees attend on only 46 (once public holidays are taken into account); they work on evenings, at weekends and in holidays, easily making up for their shorter working year. It is not unusual for teachers to work 50 hours a week, though teacher-bashers seem to think a computer must prepare and correct all the student work.

In my first school, in the 1970s, union strength, with a little help from me as timetabler, ensured the maximum weekly teaching load was about 18 hours. By the 1980s, it was legally set at 18 hours a week (plus a fortnightly extra). The last Liberal government used retrospective legislation to increase it to 20 hours a week and was trying to go further til it was stopped by the AIRC and the High Court. It is now effectively 19.2 hours a week, unless teachers are conned to agree to more, which they so easily are.

I am not putting forward a “sob story”. I am putting forward facts. Teaching conditions are worse today than they were 20 years ago. You might argue this is a good idea. It is a bad idea. If society wants the best people to teach its children, it will pay them well and provide them with good working conditions; in particular, with the class sizes and time to do their jobs thoroughly. If it does not, able people will leave teaching. Work by Andrew Leigh shows that the decline in teacher pay has been accompanied by a decline in the ENTERS of trainee teachers.

My main point was that the AEU and the teachers it represents refuse to confront their own role in the underfunding of government schools: their industrial weakness and political naivety has allowed their workloads to increase. Blaming the federal government is a distraction.

Bowie - I realise the Public system deals with the most 'problematic' of our Nations students. These kids undoubtedly add millions to Education costs through interminable 'programs', damage to property, interupting the learning of others and driving teachers into stress related illness.

Re-read my post and see that I come out in support of Public schools with suggestions that would cost more in the short term but reap savings plus social and economic benefits in medium and long term. Class sizes limited to 20, segregation of 'slow' students into classes concentrating heavily on the basic 3Rs, segregation of persistant troublemakers with special intervention. Better behaviour management and discipline options, Teacher competence overhaul.

Meantime facts remain - the Private sector produces a superior product ON AVERAGE because of reasons stated. Add observations of 'eyejaw' about syllabus shortfalls (agreed) and we clearly need a return to basics first & second then the "trimmings". Note 'eyejaw' is tutoring Math - not History of First Australians or Theory of Global Warming. Numeracy weakness though is secondary to near illiteracy and inability to spell and construct simple sentences. I see quite a bit of that in job applicants - much more commonly in the State School graduate (or drop-out). This is observation not judgement.

I believe every Aussie kid has the right to the OPPORTUNITY of a decent basic education. The Private system seems to be doing a better job but they generally have a higher proportion of better 'raw material'. Extra funding for Public Schools - Yes - but unless there are serious changes to improve EFFECTIVENESS it would probably be money wasted.

Finally - it is nothing short of a crime that otherwise 'normal' young people can 'complete' High School and be unable to read. This isn't rare and as far as I'm concerned is unforgivable! You've all seen the Bumper Sticker "If you can read this - Thank a Teacher"? So - if you can't read this .....? What despicable, idealogical, illogical idiot decided these kids could PROGRESS through the grades without meeting minimum benchmarks?

//Why do those charged with imparting numeracy and literacy to children persist in misrepresenting the facts?//

Hmmm... well, because they are socialists and communists who only have themSELVES at heart. That's my opinion.

When I was in the work force up to 20 years ago, the AEU was the "Amalgamated Engineering Union", And I had previously put in a post under that misconception. By the posts, it seems that has something to do with the Education union. My father was a school teacher in a state school, and was often supplied with instructions which he considered were inappropiare and as the was the teacher of a one teacher school, anything he considered not suitable, he ignored it. It didn't really matter, because it wasn't long before the department had changed their mind and supplied another ruling which was about as usless.