Dear John,

Multiculturalism should offer people a choice. They should be able to decide for themselves how much they wish to sequester themselves within their ethnic enclaves. Where they can learn to make that choice is in the public school system. Among other things education should give children the tools for critical thinking, knowledge about the humanities and science, the skills either to make a living or go on to further education and knowledge about the wider society. While parents should have a choice in deciding whether they want their children to go to public or non-public schools I do not believe the state should subsidise that choice. There should be no funding for non-public schools.

You also wrote: “In Australia children have rights that are not always consistent with those of the home - for example arranged marriages: arranged marriages are O.K. but the state will not force a boy or a girl to enter into such an arranged marriage if they do not wish to do so.”

Here again the public schools are key. The state should replace the school chaplains with trained counsellors so students of all religious backgrounds can feel free to go to the counsellors. That would be one way in which a teenager pressured into an arranged marriage can make the fact known. Otherwise it might require great resources and intrusive investigation to make sure such things are not happening.

I believe Christian, Jewish and Muslim schools can all be harmful. I believe one of their implicit purposes is to prevent their students from marrying somebody of a different religion. Such mixing has strains but can have desirable consequences. Christian schools can be harmful if they teach such nonsense as Creationism. Jewish schools can be harmful if they teach devotion to Israel over devotion to Australia. Muslim schools can be harmful if they teach submission of women.

Social attitudes should be respected, and we should not expect somebody with those attitudes to abandon them to any greater extent than necessary. However, we should give their children a choice.

I love how the turkish parents took their daughters out of scholl cos they thought they would be sexually molested by Aussie lads, yet the very same parents will ship those same young girls off back to some tukish vllage for a prearranged marriage with an much older man!!

Rock on germany, somebody talking sense at last

Interesting article,and a refreshing change from the usual ill -defined versions of 'multiculturalism' that have been previously presented on this site by wannabe social engineers.

I agree with the author's last paragraph. It's a promising approach to solving culural conflicts, however it doesn't quite go far enough. The best approach is to ignore 'multiculturalism' entirely.

Yes of course it goes without saying that "MultiCulturalism" has not just failed but failed utterly.

Germany... see it in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvpnDFIo9xA&has_verified=1

You need to have an account to access this vid.

We have already seen exactly this in the lead up to and aftermath of the historic anti racist, pro Australia Cronulla Protests of 2005

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0IaAe6p7vU

There is overwhelming evidence that mixing disparate cultures does not work or lead to peace.

MAIN FACTOR the primary problem with "MC" is that it is never understood by the migrant cultures as the Government states the policy. They see it as an opportunity to advance their own culture at the expense of the host culture..rather than simply 'practicing as long as it does not infringe Australian law' their own.

Then there are those who simply want to change the law so their cultural ethno/religio/centrism can have free reign and be unchallenged.

Has not worked... is not working..and will never work.

Of COURSE multiculturalism was doomed to failure.

How obvious is it that the majority of people in a given country with a given culture would object to that culture being progressively diluted as peoples with very different practices and beliefs became a prominent part of their society?

A small number of people of diverse cultures living amongst us would not be a problem. They'd be welcome, for as long as they observed the core values of their new country, and for as long as they did not become so large in number as to have political or social clout to seriously change, dilute or corrupt the practices and beliefs of their host country...or to dominate enclave areas where 'traditional' Australians feel most unwelcome.

It really is as simple as that, isn't it?

And you can bet your bottom dollar that as all manner of stresses increase in our Australian society, that mutliculturalism will become a progressively bigger problem, with less tolerance being shown between all manner of groups.

G'donya Angela!

The author has defined multiculturalism in such a way that no reasonable person could object to it. After all, most of us don’t care whether you call the inside of your house France, Timbuktu or Fairyland. You are at liberty to speak French, English, Serbo-Croat or Klingon.

You can listen to whatever music you like, eat whatever food you like and practice whatever religion you like.

For the most part you are free to cover your face or not as you like.

My friends good naturedly accept the fact that I still support the South African cricket team against Australia.

But the author’s definition does not properly describe multiculturalism as it is practiced today.

Here is an example of multiculturalism in action in Australia.

>>LAST week the Perth District Court imposed a Muslim cultural practice on a group of non-Muslim men.

Judge Shauna Deane told the men - all journalists - to leave her court so a Muslim woman could feel free to give evidence in a fraud trial without wearing her niqab.

Deane had earlier ruled that Tasneem, whose last name has been suppressed, had to remove her face-covering veil so the jury could read her face as well as hear her words.

But the male journalists were ejected, despite applications from the Seven, Nine and Ten networks to let them stay.>>

See: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/lowering-veil-on-mens-rights/story-e6frfhqf-1225940876966

It makes you wonder, doesn't it.

>>Yes of course it goes without saying that "MultiCulturalism" has not just failed but failed utterly<<

Thanks Boaz. I expected no less form you.

But let me dig a little deeper for you, and see what we can find, eh?

Britain was invaded by the Romans in 55BC, when the country was inhabited by a mix of Britons and the northern European Belgae. Then came (roughly in chronological order) Frisians from Holland, Jutes from Jutland, Angles from Schleswig Holstein, Saxons from north-west Germany, Vikings from Scandinavia, Normans from Normandy, Romani from South Asia, Huguenots from France, Hanseatic merchants and Protestant refugees from Germany, West Africans (Elizabeth I tried to get them arrested and expelled, but failed), black American soldiers from the American Revolutionary War, Lascars from India, Bengalis from Bengal, Jews from Russia, Irish refugees from the Famine...

And all that, before even the start of the Twentieth Century.

What was that again, Ludwig?

It is impossible for a country to support immigrants, as "the majority of people in a given country with a given culture would object to that culture being progressively diluted as peoples with very different practices and beliefs became a prominent part of their society".

There are far more examples of successful integration than failure.

You just don't like the idea of foreign people, do you.

@stevenlmeyer
the definition of multiculturalism I provided was in fact the working definition that was supposed to guide policy development. It was the working definition that those of us lobbying for a multicultural australia were using. With Keith Bull I wrote Multiculturalism from Practice to Policy which was an accurate description of how Multiculturalism was perceived by those of us who were promoting it.
But as you rightly point out (and this was the point of my article) that notion of multiculturalism has been lost - whereas the intention was that the onus ought to be on the cultural minority to demonstrate that their particular practice did not violate Australia's core values that notion has now been reversed as your example demonstrates.
@Ludwig - I tried to make the point that the idea of a monocultural society has always been a myth.
I suppose the real challenge that we face is summed up neatly in this you tube clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7AWnfFRc7g

Pericles,

(The Roman conquest of Britain was in 43 AD)

'There are far more examples of successful integration than failure',well yes, if you confine that observation to the liberal-democratic West prior to the mid 20th century. However it's certainly and tragically not true for the Islamic world where non-Moslem minorities are generally oppressed,forcibly converted or expelled.
'Multiculturalism',rightly or wrongly is seen as a Trojan horse for the spread of Islam,a totalitarian doctrine inimical to Western liberties.

stevenlmeyer's example is regrettably,all too common,there are many others,e.g. non-Moslems are required to adopt Islamic dress codes at public swiming pools so that Moslems can be 'included',their inclusion is our exclusion. Unfortunately there appears to be an unending supply of 'useful idiots' who think that 'multiculturalism' implies accommodation to others' intolerant attitudes.

So,let's acknowledge the huge smelly,noisy elephant in the room

MultiCulti has failed and we are paying dearly, very dearly for it's failings.

But the authors want "I believe that we too need to have a debate about these issues in Australia", why? bwcause they are the sort of bureaucrats and academics who profit from government funding of multiculturalism.

I'm proud of cheese, rationalism, democracy, social-mobility, internal-combustion engines, guns, steel, free-education, free-speech, etc etc.

I am not really impressed by curry, thai cooking and chinese new year... but these seem to be the sole benefits we have from multiculturalsm.

What I don't like is the crime, the vastly increasing masses of welfare-dependant, the colapse of 'social capital' graffitti, and squalor of the 'multicultural' suburbs.

But the author has no idea about this... he lives in a suburb like Sydney's Newtown, or Melbourne's Fitzroy... pure professional-class. white ghettos. THese lefties don't see multiculturalism, they only see multicultural restaurants, staffed by workers who live a safe distance from their nice white, professional public servant suburbs.

PartTImeParen@pobox.com

You just don't like the idea of foreign people, do you.
Pericles,
That is a very ignorant statement. Anyone with ½ oz of grey matter can tell that it is the foreign people who invade others who are the ones who force their mentality onto the hosts. Australia has been no exception. But back to the question of the thread. Whenever there is a show or festival most people appreciate what foreigners have to offer. What most people don't appreciate is those foreigners who want to make things worse due to dumb$hit religions.

That's also true, mac.

>>Pericles, (The Roman conquest of Britain was in 43 AD)<<

But my copy of De Bello Gallico has this to say in chapter 5:

"Accessum est ad Britanniam omnibus navibus meridiano fere tempore"

Which I could have sworn recorded the arrival of Julius Caesar in 55BC.

I count that as "invaded".

Certainly the inhabitants did, as you can see here:

"Cassivellaunus hoc proelio nuntiato tot detrimentis acceptis, vastatis finibus, maxime etiam permotus defectione civitatum legatos per Atrebatem Commium de deditione ad Caesarem mittit."

He came back in 54BC as well.

It seems to me that this country divides pretty quickly into those who hate to see change of any kind, and find reason after reason to moan and whinge about how the country's going to the dogs, thanks to all those smelly foreigners.

And those who get on with their lives, who don't necessarily think that foreigners are bent on evil, and who also don't believe that we need to continue to live as we did in the 1950s.

But heck, I'm an immigrant here too, so what do I know?

Baygon, you have absolutely nailed it when you wrote "the idea of a monocultural society has always been a myth".

I disagree when you write that the notion of minorities having to adapt to the majority has now been reversed .......... with respect I think that is urban myth. It's myth because the "truth" is that the overall ground rules have altered, but have NOT been totally reversed. There's TREMENDOUS pressure on new arrivals in Australia to adapt to many of our core values, keeping in mind that those core values have NEVER been static, and have NEVER been "only" the values of white residents. Right from the very beginning (even amongst the original settlers, the aboriginal people) a monoculture has not existed. Our values have always been diverse, sometimes more so than at other times.

The MYTH that the majority has to adapt to the minority is a myth that panders to the fears of people who don't understand change, and who don't understand that change has ALWAYS existed. Change is part of Australia's social landscape. It's easy to pander to this fear, because it's soooooo easy to pick specific circumstances of specific people or groups where they don't conform 100% to some other group's assertion of what being Aussie means. Even amongst the most rabid of rednecks there's disagreement of what is and isn't Aussie culture.

Aussie culture has always been diverse.

I can remember when some white Aussies were totally freaked out by the post war "invasion" of Greeks and Italians. They were convinced we were doomed and the "wogs" would "force" their culture on us.

Some Aussies basically desire a monoculture. They are a minority, but often a noisy minority with constant letters to the editor, phone calls to radio shock jocks, not to mention the modern version of countless posts on internet forums.

Our entire country has been multicultural right from the very beginning. It's been a marvelous success and our land had profited handsomely.

We are not, and have never been, a monoculture.

Pericles,

Yes, but in that case, Caesar,came, saw, didn't conquer and left. I'm sure some Roman soldiers left their DNA behind, but the Roman settlement of Britain did not occur until the invasion of 43 AD. So you can refer to that De Bellico thingy as much as you like, however, it's irrelevant.

You're making straw man arguments and offensive ad hominem attacks---my objection is not to foreigners, smelly or otherwise, but to ideologies, I hope you don't equate religion and race.

Your namesake presented much more persuasive arguments.

really it is secular dogmatism that has failed rather than multiculturalism. David f's little rant is a good example of that and he demonstrates his intolerance and blindness to anything that exposes secularism for the failed system it is. With the massive failures in the State education system all he can do is complain about Christian Chaplains and the fact that any decent school worth its salt does not push the evolution fantasy. Just like secularist twist their observations to fit their little warped theory they do the same when it comes to immigration. If we were a little more selective about who came here then many of our problems would be non existent. Go to any thriving church in Aussie (of which their are many) and you will need people from many nations getting along just fine.

Dear runner,

People who follow your superstition do not always get along fine. There were many wars while Europe was almost all Christian. the wars of the Reformation where different branches of the superstition did their best to kill each other and those who completely rejected the superstition were horrible. In your topsy turvy world science is fantasy, and irrational belief is truth.

I invite people to read runner's last post, then read my post.

Really it is christian dogmatism that has failed rather than multiculturalism. David F's contribution demonstrates runner's intolerance and blindness to anything that exposes religion for the failed system it is. With the massive failures in the religious education system all runner can do is complain about secularism in education and the fact that any decent school worth it's salt does not push the creationism fantasy. Just like fundamentalist christians twist their observations to fit their little warped theory, they do the same when it comes to immigration. If we were a little more selective about letting christians come here then many of our problems would be non existent. Go to any church in Aussie ( despite their rapidly dwindling numbers) and you will see people who heartily disagree with, and disapprove of, the beliefs of the people who attend the other different denomination across the road.

Angela Merkel's meeting with Turkish Prime Minister in Berlin was about the integration of Muslims into Germany society - they're not doing it, something we all know - Muslims don't integrate - period. How can you expect people to integrate if their kids don't go to the schools of their adopted country? They dont because it ensures their whole way of thinking is reinforced down to the next generation and so on. It will take forever before their kids become Aussified and it makes me very angry. There are 2.5 million Turkish Muslims in Germany and they refuse to integrate. Now she's actually come out and said it - good for her, it's about time someone did!

But Multi-culturalism has succeeded in Australia. When the Europeans arrived in the 50's, their decendants are now 100% Aussie, they went to our schools and suffered the wog insults and we now realize how lucky we are to have these fine people among us today.

Dear Pericles

your provision of some English history is well meaning..and on the surface might be considered 'persuasive' for the case 'for' multi-culturalism.

But..as you suggest..let's dig a bit deeper. The Romans were not particularly tolerant of little upstarts of 'non' Roman culture becoming a threat.. just ask David F what happened to his own forebears on that score.

The key to a successful state is not 'divisive' "Multi" ...culturalism but MONO culturalism as public policy. No..I don't mean 'wipe out' non mainstream cultures..but I DO mean 'educate,encourage and reward all evidence of people working to integrate,assmililate and be productive loyal citizens of ONE country'.

Now..to all but the totally irrational among us... it would seem obvious that a careful and selective immigration policy would be wise if not absolutely neccessary for this to be a goer without any major handicaps.

We don't need or want 'ex' Tamil Tigers, or 'patriotic' sinhanlese or Hi cast hindu's or Militant Muslims or Croats or Serbs who never intend to forget their own petty historic squabbles.

We can accept people from such 'national' (but not political) backgrounds on strict condition that they make a committment (with KPIs) to be good Australians and to support embrace and promote the culture they find already here.

GERT WILDERS TRIAL COLLAPSES.

As of course it should. This divisive and blatant example of just how pernicious and scurrilous 'multiculturalism' becomes should alert all of us to where 'we' are headed if not already arrived.

Victorias draconian/Orwellian Racial and Religious Tolerance Act coupled with the recent changes to the 'Equal' Opportunity Act along with the outright lies and deception of labor politicians on the issue, should sound a warning that perhaps we have already arrived.

Wilders trial collapsed because a corrupt JUDGE tried to manipulate and massge an 'expert witness' into agreeing that Wilders should be put on trial.

This example of disgraceful legal malfeasance is simply 'the destination' under left wing 'end justifies the means' political normality.

Fortunately there was some self respecting senior Dutch legal people who saw the direction and stepped in.

Even the prosecution did not believe Wilders had a case to answer.
They were FORCED to prosecute by biased judges.

Ohhhh how the Old Testament is relevant today as ever.

Isaiah 5

20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.

21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
and clever in their own sight.

23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe,
but deny justice to the innocent

The RESULT:

5 Now I will tell you
what I am going to do to my vineyard:
I will take away its hedge,
and it will be destroyed;
I will break down its wall,
and it will be trampled.

It's interesting how Al "characterises" immigrants who are not part of his cherished monoculture, as CRIMINAL types.

He does this as a manoeuvre. It enables him to adopt a phony high moral ground, by implying that if one doesn't agree with his monoculture "beliefs" then you're supporting in Australia insurrection, social disorder, criminal activity, terrorism and all manner of nasty things.

He does this phony high moral ground stuff on many topics that he posts on. It's a manoeuvre he uses in an attempt to "win". I just thought I'd alert people here to his tactics, and if you wish to take his bait then go ahead. But remember, he's baiting you.

When I was still teaching I used to read to my students a passage that described migrants as dirty, untrustworthy, dangerous, and really not fit to live in civilized society. I would then ask students to whom the author was referring. Invariably the response identified whomesoever was part of the most recent lot of new migrants. The irony was that the piece was taken from Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath and referred to the Okies. (I have long lost my copy but it was in one of the interchapters towards the end of the book be great of someone knows the exact words.) For us the point is that if we can condemn a particular group out of hand then we have a good reason for not getting to know them and as long as we remain ignorant we will never discover that they are really not that different from ourselves.

I dissagree with both Samsung and runner.

Multiculturalism is firstly a missnomer as there is no other culture that we accept in its entire form. We tolerate and accept aspects of other cultures only, some more than others.

We are multi-racial but not multicultural. Our basic laws, governance and social standards are based on the UK model, as is our defence and police forces, and local government. We even drive on the roads left.

There are many aspects of other cultures that are against our laws and social standards. Others cannot simply state that what is "outside the home is Australia and inside the home is France". Polygamy, oppession of women, forced marriages and FGM take place within the home as does certain culinary practices which are not acceptable.

Multiculturalism is a failed ideology because many groups do not accept others. Palistinians and Jews do not see eye to eye, Croats and Serbs still hate and fight each other after 3-4 generations here. More recently the Sri Lankens and the Tamils have had violent clashes in Melbourne and Sydney, one involved a home invasion and acid attack.

'Unity in diversity' is an outright lie. Facts are that different ethnic groups do not get along and the Lebs get on with no one else.

Problem is those that continue to advocate MC only see the 'nice' things like children in costumes, dragon parades, beer festivals and various eating places. They ignore the baggage that comes with various ethnic groups.

Every time we bend to accomodate another cultural aspect we compromise our own culture. Therfore cultural change must evolve slowly over time and not forced on the community by government decree. That is what we have here and is called social engineering.

Baygon, that's using "logic". I'm afraid the Als of this world run on something different, like a mixture of fear and "belief" ...... they want their monoculture; and if you don't agree then you're a supporter of CRIMINALS. LOL.

ALGOREisRICH wrote: But..as you suggest..let's dig a bit deeper. The Romans were not particularly tolerant of little upstarts of 'non' Roman culture becoming a threat.. just ask David F what happened to his own forebears on that score.

Dear ALGOREisRICH,

Yes, let’s dig deeper.

The Romans were generally quite tolerant. Other polytheistic religions such as Mithraism could practice their religion freely. The foreign gods were simply added to the Roman pantheon.

The Jewish revolt against the Romans was primarily agrarian. The Jewish farmers were possibly the best farmers in the Roman Empire. Rome wanted a supply of grain to feed their masses so they ordered the Jews to plant grain instead of varying the crops (Romans wanted a farming monoculture.) and forbad the periodic practice of land lying fallow. The farmers revolted since their land was being destroyed. It was a great disgrace for a Roman legion to lose their eagles to an enemy. It only happened twice – once against the Jews and once against the Germans. However, the Romans had nothing against Jews as a religious group. Josephus, a Jewish general, went over to the Romans but remained a Jew. He was accepted by the Romans as a historian.

Unfortunately Christianity arose. Not only did the Christians fail to help the Jews in their struggles to maintain themselves in Palestine, they even denied the right the right of the Jewish people to continue to exist. They claimed the Jewish Holy books as their own with the addition of the New Testament. They asserted that Jews did not understand their own Bible. Furthermore, the Christians said that God had abandoned the Jews, and that they, Christians, were the true Israel.

Rome became Christian and then persecuted both Jews and pagans. The Empire than adopted many anti-Jewish laws. Christians wanted complete market share. Churchmen discouraged social intercourse between Jews and Christians and banned intermarriage because the non-Jewish partner often became Jewish. Some churchmen called Jews and Judaism by the vilest names to keep Jews and Christians apart.

Jews fought the Romans, but pagan Romans were never as intolerant as Christians.

One thing implied by the good Chancellor was that some immigrants benefit the recipient nation, some see the opportunities and adapt and get in business, build wealth and integrate.

The difference is really typical IQ. Silly people argue about what IQ is, but the bottom line is that IQ is the acility to adapt. SOme migrant groups have higer IQ than others.

The Jews who had the money and widom to escape Europe around WWII were the smartest of the jews, and the jews are famously smart. At this time, every immigrant to the US sat an IQ test, so this stuff is known with certaintly.

The jews who came to the US were especially smart. And so also were the European immigrants escaping religious persecution in other periods. And so also are many of the White South Africans. And so on.

But many others sre the average, or the stupid of their race. The Dept of Immigration had stats on this back in 2001. (They don't have them anymore - with a Labour Government) For example, of the Afgan-born Australians in 2001 (before the Gulf war) 75% of them were welfare-dependant! THat's right... three quarters were on welfare! Meanwhile Chinese, SOuth African and German had a welfare dependancy rate of about 2.5%...

75% compared to 2.5%... Impressive difference!

Pity that our politically correct ALP government thinks that the truth needs to be kept secret from it's citizens!

mac, Pericles, BAYGON

I suggest that the following are the three essential rules for running a successful multicultural state.

1. Do not pander

2. Do no pander

3. Do no pander

Or, to put it more bluntly, if you want to cover your face that is your right. But if you have to give evidence in court you will remove your face covering.

No ifs.

No buts.

No special conditions.

Dear david f,

The English word culture comes from the Latin cultura stemming from colere, meaning to cultivate.
In 1952 Alfred Kroeber and Clyde Kluckhohm compiled a list of 164 definitions of culture, however "culture" is used in 3 basic senses.

Excellent taste in Fine Arts.
An integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for symbolic thought and social learning.
The shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes
an institution, organization or group.
Multi can be substituted with the word many.

I find your attitude expressed here very narrow and bigoted as you embrace the literal belief in random chance and reject intelligent design as a belief system. And also your belief that your way is the right way to skin the cat and reeks of pride, (Stinken Thinken).

Dear ALGOREisRICH,

You quote the Bible, but you know neither history nor the Bible. The Bible is neither a reliable scientific or history text nor, with its acceptance of slavery, the death penalty for violating the Sabbath and other archaic attitudes, an adequate guide for moral behaviour. Cherry picking quotes from the Bible is reasonable if you are having a dialogue with those who share your superstition. Most of us on OLO don’t. You know it and still keep quoting. You may do as you like, but I, and presumably others, do not in general regard that as meaningful argument.

The Bible is vital in the history of Jews and Christians. However, one is ignorant of that history if one relies on the Bible alone. Since the time of Jesus there has been almost two thousand years of history. Both Christians and Jews are very different now. From your posts I gather you know very little of that history.

Reading the Bible without knowing the commentary or the original language leaves you in ignorance. Eg Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

In the original Hebrew translated an ‘almah’ will conceive. Almah means a young woman. In the Greek translation almah was replaced by parthenos which means virgin, and that translation was kept in the King James Version. The prophesy of a virgin birth is merely the result of mistranslation.

There are many historians who have dealt with the period when your superstition originated. I have some of those books. Although the authors are familiar with the Bible they also rely on other writings for their history - The Dead Sea Scrolls, Roman archives, historians of the time such as Tacitus and Josephus, Cicero, Caesar and many others. Christianity is a religion, but literal belief in the Bible is superstition.

I don’t expect you to become a scholar, but I wish you would be aware of your ignorance. I am not a scholar either, but I am aware of my ignorance.

stevenlmeyer,

Yes,agreed,our liberties are being eroded by continous accommodation to Moslem intolerance in the name of 'inclusion',some cultures simply can't be included without self-destructive compromise on the part of the majority society. Lenin would have called the smug multiculturalists who are engineering this process, 'useful idiots'.

Here's multiculturalism at work in the UK, another 'no-go' area 'under construction'?

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/10/london-borough-becomes-islamic-republic.html

david f,

'I am aware of my ignorance',well said, if only more people had the wisdom of Socrates.

Dear Samsung :) Nothing like a bit of healthy criticism to liven me up on a Sunday morning!

You say:

It's interesting how Al "characterises" immigrants who are not part of his cherished monoculture, as CRIMINAL types.
He does this as a manoeuvre.

Err...actually... I was not characterizing the assylum seekers as crimmo's... was I? (chapter and verse please) but if you wish to explore that..by all means let's.

The damage and riots and violence committed by assylum seekers is criminal. Disagree?

But my point..(it seems you missed it) was that allowing Multiculturalism to rampage through our society, ends up with proven corrupt Judges seeking to manipulate trials on behalf of minority interests. "that" was my point.

StevenLMeyer..CLASSIC :) wonderful post.

Dear David F.. you said:

//Unfortunately Christianity arose. Not only did the Christians fail to help the Jews in their struggles to maintain themselves in Palestine.//

I smiled at that. "Christians failed to help the Jews in their struggles" ? hmmmmm

Mayyyyyybe...because if the Jews knew they were Christian.....they hunted them/us down and laid waste to our families and meeting places?

Acts 7
On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.

by the way..the Isaiah scroll, from which I quoted is one of the best attested documents of antiquity. (Dead Sea Scrolls..Septuagint..etc)

I presume David your source for the 'agrarian' reasons for the Jewish uprising is Josephus? Please provide a link and reference.
Thanx

MAC....that's astonishing.. well.. it would be if I had not already written the English off as 'gullible morons' when it comes to politics.

I am most sincere in my use of that word 'moron' because the dictionary states it means a person of poor judgement...which they manifestly hold dear.

How a white majority can allow a Muslim mayor to win control of 'supply and distribution' of a billion pound budget with only 13% of the vote is mind numbing.

It it any wonder the ENGLISH DEFENSE LEAGUE is growing..and growing?

Now the EDL is establishing connections with the Tea Party patriots and is planning a demo in AMSTERDAM!

Notice though, that the Wilders Trial collapsed in a heap of judicial corruption and intrigue.. again.. reasons which spell out WHY the EDL is essential for the salvation of worn out culturally bludgeoned insensible white english voters. Sadly..many of those same voters still only think with their short term hip pockets and are quite bribable. Sad..but true.

The economic Poo has now hit the fan and the job cuts are slashing and burning their way through the unfunded public service pork.

Will they learn or just whine about how the world owes them a living?
My guess is 'whine' and the cultural salvation of the nation will be left to the hard working dedicated EDL,UKIP and BNP.

Dear AGIR,

I responded initially because you referred to me to back up your opinion. I didn't.

I really see no point in interacting with you further. You keep citing that unreliable source, the New Testament. The New Testament is in part a polemic against Jews and Judaism. It is a propaganda document.

James Parkes, a Christian scholar, wrote "The Conflict of the Church and the Synagogue." On p. 128 he writes, "The Acts of the Apostles provides the starting point for these legends."

That is what I was writing about. Christian scholars recognize that there is much legendary material in the Bible. You merely repeat the legends and expect me to take them seriously. The Acts of the Apostles is largely fiction.

If you refer to me again I shall not respond. I get little enjoyment in arguing with superstition.

The Bible is not a historical document, but you keep citing it as though it is.

Yes, you're right, there's not much point trying to interact with Al. Al continually cites the New Testament as an accurate historical document, not just on this topic but on nearly every topic he writes about. He does this not because he's a "real" Christian, which he is not, but because he is a fundamentalist Christian; a fundamentalism based on radical right wing USA style Christian fundamentalism. There's no difference between a fundamentalist Christian and a fundamentalist Muslim when it comes to "believing" the content of their violent and historically inaccurate so called holy books. The fundamentalists like Al, believe every word to the letter, and these people are not the "real" Christians and not the "real" Muslims, no ... they are the fundamentalists.

Here's multiculturalism working at a multicultural melee in Paris.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eUF6AqTWck&feature=player_embedded

The 2010 Technoparade was set up under the slogan "Live better together"
but really it was just an excuse for the racist white French to damage
the immigrants baseball bats with their heads.

Is this Australia's future under multiculturalism?

Brilliant indeed Proxy..how dare that white girl damage those black fists and baseball bats with her body parts.. shame on her.

Welcome back cobber.

Dear David f,
Rome became christian. How, God does not have grandchildren, you must be born again for he only has sons and daughters. A dog returns to his vomit, has it ever occurred to you that what you believe to be Christianity may be paganism as the children rejected Gods word, and that is how we got into this mess in the beginning. If you really were a bible student you would know that there was only one race, the human race, and the separation of the people into tribes and races occurred at the tower of Babel. Christianity stands or falls on the truth of Gods word, not yours. As you weren't around 2 thousand years ago I will take eye witness accounts from that time over your word " Did God really say?". For multiculturalism to work there needs to be Love for love covers a multitude of sin. God Is Love and I am sure the National socialists and the Soviet socialists did not act out of Love. Love is the key and Jesus (Gods word) is the source of it all. Pride causes people to fall from grace. If you preach intolerance of anything other than sin (to miss the mark) you have the perverse word not the truth. You need to make a study of the origin of words to under stand them not their common usage today as change in meanings occur over time. People perish from lack of knowledge and we are very fortunate to live in the internet age for knowledge is only a finger tip away. Wisdom is the principle thing and the word of God brings correction in wisdom. Reject wisdom at your peril.

Richie 10 wrote: If you really were a bible student you would know that there was only one race, the human race, and the separation of the people into tribes and races occurred at the tower of Babel.

Dear Richie 10,

I am a Bible student. A Bible student realises that the Bible includes legends from many sources, and the tower of Babel is merely a fable. Someone who believes literally in the Bible as you do is not a Bible student - merely a superstitious believer. All humans belong to one species. Possibly because homo sapiens has managed to kill off other competing humanoid species.

Richie 10 "Christianity stands or falls on the truth of Gods word, not yours."

Christianity stands or falls on the political power it wields based on the gullibility of believers.

"Love is the key and Jesus (Gods word) is the source of it all."

Jesus did not invent love. It existed before Jesus and will continue to exist when Jesus will be relegated to mythology along with Odin, Zeus and other gods that humans have invented.

Richie 10: ...we are very fortunate to live in the internet age for knowledge is only a finger tip away.

Both the Bible and the internet contain a lot of nonsense. One should approach both with skepticism.

Richie 10: Reject wisdom at your peril.

You don't seem to be in any peril even though you confuse gullible belief with wisdom.

Your argument is based on a misreading, mac.

>>Pericles, Yes, but in that case, Caesar,came, saw, didn't conquer and left<<

What I said:

"Britain was invaded by the Romans in 55BC"

I didn't mention conquering. I included a whole lot of other folk who didn't conquer Britain either, Frisians, Jutes, Angles, Saxons, Vikings etc.

They all went into the melting pot. All have been assimilated without too much angst.

So as far as "straw man arguments and offensive ad hominem attacks" are concerned...

>>...my objection is not to foreigners, smelly or otherwise, but to ideologies, I hope you don't equate religion and race<<

That's where all the action is, on the borderlines between ideology, religion and race. Boundaries that, in so many minds, have become conveniently porous, when it comes to their own personal comfort zone.

And yes, I used "smelly foreigners" as a metaphor for all those aspects of cultural and religious differences that some amongst us use as reasons for their fear and loathing.

Ah, here's one now.

>>The key to a successful state is not 'divisive' "Multi" ...culturalism but MONO culturalism as public policy<<

What has not been satisfactorily explained here is what, exactly, is "divisive" policy.

stevenlmeyer has a view on this:

>> if you want to cover your face that is your right. But if you have to give evidence in court you will remove your face covering. No ifs.
No buts. No special conditions.<<

I accept the requirement for a witness in our courts to uncover their face. What strikes me as belligerently intolerant is the demand that this be "without special conditions".

We have a culture of sensitivity to public exposure. The treatment of minors in a court of law is governed by different rules to those for adults, for example.

Given the fact that no harm can come from, say, closing the courtroom, the only possible reason for stevelmeyer's insistence on "no special conditions" for those who are unaccustomed to show their face, must be that it is a form of spiteful oppression of someone who is different.

Just a quick, temporary diversion from the topic. Regarding the covering of the face by witnesses in court . . . . this is a GREAT misconception that "some" people have. They "believe" that jurors can better judge truth or lies by observing the facial expressions and features. WRONG WRONG WRONG. Body language, especially facial expressions, is close to the worst and most inaccurate way to judge whether or not truth is being told. It's no more accurate than the Dark Age practices of having someone tortured, and if they give in then declaring that God has intervened to show guilt.

Oh my...this is just toooooo good to miss.

The "ENGLISH DEFENSE LEAGUE" is growing by the day

http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=106505025136548765274.000487ff74adb2e3e21d1&t=h&z=6

(Make sure you wait till the little teardrops show up)

THE LABOR RESPONSE.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cruddas-urges-parties-to-choke-off-edl-surge-2115829.html

a) Cruddas (Labor Politician) says

"Camped outside the political centre ground, this is a large swath of the electorate, a people who believe they have been robbed of their birthright and who are in search of community and belonging."

Then...in virtually complete denial of the point he made above he says:

b) "Now all our political parties must search for an animating, inclusive and optimistic definition of modern England to choke off what the EDL taps into."

Which is patently ridiculous. First he says they want a sense of community and belonging...which they HAD until the import of 100s of 1000s of non English to the land,....but NOWWW...he chirps that the problem will be solved by an 'inclusive' definition of England ? ? ?

Good grief..the man must be on very serious drugs.

You can always be relied upon for a good chuckle, Boaz. So thanks for keeping up the good work.

>>Oh my...this is just toooooo good to miss. The "ENGLISH DEFENSE LEAGUE" is growing by the day<<

Yawn. Yet another neo-fascist bunch of xenophobes, whose leaders use exactly the same methods that you do to whip up the good ol' fear and loathing.

I find the sociology of these groups quite fascinating, so many thanks for bringing this one to my attention, Boaz. This one grew out of the football community of Luton, a town I happen to know quite well. It is a pretty grim place, which has been going downhill ever since Vauxhall Motors (GM) stopped building cars there. At one point, the factory employed 30,000, and during WWII, they made Churchill tanks. Now it is an archetypal post-industrial urban wasteland, with its once-famous football team now out of the EPL altogether.

A perfect petri dish, in fact, within which to grow a malignant sub-culture of clansmen, hell-bent on blaming everyone else for their inability to make their way in the world.

Originally named the United People of Luton, it was led for a while by the delightful Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, an ex-BNP thug who did a year inside for assault back in 2005.

They will, of course, crash and burn in a few years. They will get a bit of notoriety along the way, of course, but only for their sporadic acts of senseless violence. Which, if you have ever been to Kenilworth Road, you will understand immediately.

Incidentally, Boaz, I have on many occasions brought to your attention the appalling lack of research that you undertake before posting your "hey, look at this!" whack-a-mozzie pieces. This one is no exception.

All those "little teardrops" you point us to on the map were put there by the same individual over a period of a couple of days. A little digging would have revealed the fact that most of them lead absolutely nowhere.

What does that tell you?

Dear Pericles.... not a bad effort... but from a very particular and predictable perpsective of course.

Let's subject your 'astute analysis' to some further scrutiny.

1/ "EDL started as United People of Luton...led by ex BNP thug"

A perfect petri dish, in fact, within which to grow a malignant sub-culture of clansmen, hell-bent on blaming everyone else for their inability to make their way in the world.
Of course you connect their rise with the closing down of the Vauxall Factory and unemployment... of course you do :) that is part of the liberal/lefty script after all.

But a bit of REAL research on your part would have shown (I can't believe you didn't know this, perhaps you chose to ignore it ?)

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/posts/view/76784/Cops-halt-reclaim-our-streets-demo/

You jolly well know how it began..as a direct outcome of the Muslim fanatics who spat on the Public Order Act and screamed vile obscenities at British troops. The link above shows how the police were acting 'politically' rather than in the true public interest..and this further fuelled the EDL.

Oh..by the way..'who' is this un-named "ex BNP thug?"

But doncha lurrrrv this ? :)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1238213/This-England-On-trail-English-Defence-League.html

Poor intimidated muslim woman on a train.... well done Daily Mail/LABOR.

oOOOOH..this EDL hooooligans.. making her feel uncomfortable.

But THIS is classic leftist spin...

//Violence has erupted at most of the EDL's demonstrations. In total, nearly 200 people have been arrested and an array of weapons has been seized, including knuckledusters, a hammer, a chisel and a bottle of bleach.//

Of course they DON'T mention that most of those arrested for "violence" happen to the the UAF thugs from counter demo's who without fail try to goad the EDL blokes into doing something violent.

The papers don't care who started it BUT.... arrest figues don't lie.

UAF leader Weyman Bennet and his other commy cohort Martin Smith arrested ...WHY?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7489008/English-Defence-League-and-anti-fascist-protesters-clash-in-Bolton.html

"Suspicion of intent to commit violent disorder" Notice the loving face of that UAF thug snarling at the coppers eh.. pretty don't you think?

PS.. out of the 75 arrests BY FAR most of them were from UAF.

Not exactly, Boaz.

>>Of course you connect their rise with the closing down of the Vauxall Factory and unemployment...that is part of the liberal/lefty script after all<<

Remember the Limehouse rallies? Fuelled by economic misery and unemployment. I know that Mosley called himself a Socialist, but he was hardly "liberal/lefty", was he.

To be clearer, the closing of the plant was only one contributing factor. The breeding ground was the football-supporter culture at Kenilworth Road, where senseless violence is a way of life.

>>Oh..by the way..'who' is this un-named "ex BNP thug?"<<

"Un-named", Boaz? Read it again.

"... the delightful Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, an ex-BNP thug who did a year inside for assault back in 2005."

He tried to hide his identity for a while, calling himself "Tommy Robinson". Presumably because being banged up for twelve months for assaulting an off-duty policeman doesn't look good on a politician's CV.

http://1millionunited.org/blogs/blog/2010/06/25/unmasked-the-bnp-past-of-the-edl-leader/

Your Daily Mail article on the intimidation of a Muslim girl by football hooligans was most enlightening too. Did you actually bother to read it all the way through? I'm beginning to suspect you may have ADD...

"We met at a derelict building close to Luton town centre. Eleven men turned up. All wore balaclavas, as they often do to hide their identities, and most had black EDL hoodies with 'Luton Division' written on the back."

Tasty.

"...a mob of 30 white and black youths is said to have surrounded Asian students near City University in central London and attacked them with metal poles, bricks and sticks while shouting racist abuse. Three people - two students and a passer-by who tried to intervene - were stabbed."

You're just loving this, aren't you Boaz.

>>But THIS is classic leftist spin...<<

You really don't get it, do you. This is thuggery, pure and simple. It should be a surprise to see a Christian singing their praises and egging them on in the way that you do.

But thanks to your persistent, and consistent, whack-a-mozzie antics, I'm getting quite used to the idea.

Still not a good look, but.

Hi Perilous yet again...

I found Yaxley's name just before. No biggy...I don't know why the fact that he's done a bit of time should worry anyone. Obviously a man of passion no ?

We both know that people who have "done time"...for 'assault' are many, and also that some of them have ended with greatness..hmmm oh..here's one Nelson Mandela.

You are getting a little bogged down mate with the salubrious detail which fits your narrative. Look at the 'BIIIIGGGGG' picture.

I wonder Pericles.. have you ever actually been on the receiving end of raw racist hate simply because of the color of your skin ?

I see that hatred for skin color (white), religion and political ideas in the fact of that scumbag drooling and gnashing his UAF teeth in the photo I'm sure you saw.

Ok.. back to big picture stuff. You will have observed by now that the EDL is currently hosting a Jewish Rabbi :) OOps.. now that doesn't fit the 'Nazi scum, off our streets' chant of the UAF now does it? Ooooh how the Media is drooling and hungering and thirsting for some kind of 'Neo Nazi' thing they can hang on the EDL.....

But.. it just doesn't work.. not even when they plant people in EDL crowds to make hitler salutes which they 'conveniently' are on hand to photograph.

You could be quite right. The EDL might crash land in a muddy paddock somewhere. If I was going to derail them... wanna know how I'd do it ?

Simple, you infiltrate EDL with some delicious honey trap chick, get her close to "Tommy" then, she suddenly says "He was violent to me"
*Game Over* (you'd have to have a look at the 'history' section of 'Storm'handbook to see why it's relevant.

I learned this here.
http://media.glennbeck.com/downloads/10/06/STORMSummation.pdf

So..if MI5 or MI6...whichever feels the call.. to try to stage something like that..none of us should be surprised.

But wait Pericles....there's more :)

'TRUTH' time.

Media

http://news1.capitalbay.com/news/edl_protest_turns_violent_policeman.html

"EDL protest turns violent: Policeman injured after missiles are hurled in Leicester"

The hilarious thing is....he was BITTEN by a police DOG!

Regarding those missiles.. contrast the Police treatment of the "Asian youth" hurling them in front of the bobbies and how the police are treating EDL lads at a bus.

It's allll here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4AFJ2EPTXg

I so love the dog bite bit :) but hey...why waste an opportunity for a good old EDL bash eh ?

I must confess though.. their music is errr.. a little harsh on my ears... I'd prefer something milder..softer.. like this :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PebI3YUiAvU

A slightly more reverent pace.

FYI...I'm sniffing a rather strong Jewish/Zionist connection in the EDL ... not a bad thing in itself, but not toooo much eh :)

ALGOREisRICH,
You'll enjoy this.
It's just like the Forum;
reason versus insanity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGwtG8nVpUU&feature=player_embedded#!

Proxy I take it you are being ironic? The You tube link gives us an example of two equally irrational people debating an issue with little regard for the facts or indeed logic - when I initiated this discussion I had hoped for some sort of rational discussion of what our core values are. Perhaps Graham should use his contacts at QUT and see if there are any honours students who are interested in considering how long it takes for a thread to unravel and degenerate into a series of incoherent diatribes.

Baygon,

I thought John Tons initiated this discussion?

"Has Multiculturalism Failed?"

Yes it has.

"PARIS (Reuters) – Muslim pupils and parents in France are increasingly making religious demands on the state school system that teachers should rebuff by explaining the country's secular principles, according to an official report.

The High Council for Integration (HCI) reported growing problems with pupils of immigrant backgrounds who object to courses about the Holocaust, the Crusades or evolution, demand halal meals and "reject French culture and its values."

"During Ramadan, some Muslim pupils harass others who don't observe the annual daytime fast, it said. Boys who identify themselves as Muslims and reject French values harass girls who do well in class as "collaborators" with the "dirty French."

Some girls ask to be excused from gymnasium or pool sessions because they are not supposed to mix with boys, it added."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101025/lf_nm_life/us_france_integration_religion

"Increasing demands..."

"Growing problems..."

"Rejection of (host country) culture and its values..."

It's a familiar pattern, repeated wherever Islam meets the West,
unequivocally demonstrating the failure of multiculturalism.

That's tasteless, Boaz. Even for you.

>>We both know that people who have "done time"...for 'assault' are many, and also that some of them have ended with greatness..hmmm oh..here's one Nelson Mandela.<<

You compare this:

"At the beginning of June 1961, after long and anxious assessment of the South African situation, I and some colleagues came to the conclusion that as violence in this country was inevitable, it would be wrong and unrealistic for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle, and to form Umkhonto we Sizwe ... the Government had left us no other choice."

http://www.nelsonmandela.org/index.php/memory/views/biography/

With this:

"In the same year he assaulted an off-duty police officer who intervened to stop a domestic incident between Yaxley-Lennon and his partner Jenna Vowles. During the scuffle Yaxley-Lennon kicked the officer in the head. He was convicted on 18 April 2005 for assault occasioning actual bodily harm, for which he was sentenced to 12 months’ imprisonment, and assault with intent to resist arrest, for which he received a concurrent term of three months."

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/The-BNP-past-of-EDL-leader

You'll believe anything they tell you, won't you.

>>I so love the dog bite bit :) but hey...why waste an opportunity for a good old EDL bash eh ?<<

If you look closely at the video that supposedly shows the "dog bite", and if you care to be entirely honest with yourself for a moment, you will notice two things.

1. Neither of the dogs in shot is in a position to inflict a bite.

2. The policeman fell backwards, abruptly, consistent with being struck by a missile thrown from in front of him. There is no way that a "dog bite" would have caused such a movement.

But someone labels it "Dog Bite", and you swallow the story hook, line and sinker.

That's quite pathetic in a grown man, you know.

Ohhhh goood GRIEF :) Proxy... between your hilarious (but spot on) video link and Pericles 'surreal' "hook line and sinker" swallowing of a "Hope Not Hate" version (or cut paste of) events in Yaxley's life...

I just about cannot go on....I mean.. I reckon the neighbours would hear my shrieks of hilarity and unbelief.(of Pericles and Baygons efforts)

O-k..Pericles..time to bring you to book, in the kindest possible way.

Lets have a peak at how the British Media portrays an EDL event, then..let's look at the truth.

Begin with WIKIPEDIA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Defence_League#Association_with_violence_and_anti-social_behaviour

On 9 October 2010, a police officer and several civillians were injured during protests by the English Defence League and Unite Against Fascism in Leicester. A Sky News van was attacked by members of the English Defence League[74] who had earlier thrown fireworks, smokebombs and bricks at police.

Let's break this down into managable portions.

1/ "A police officer Injured"
2/ "Several civilians Injured"
3/ "Sky news van attacked by EDL members"
4/ "Who had earlier thrown fireworks, smokebombs and bricks...at police"

Freakkkkkky for sure. Ohhh those BAD BAD BADDDD EDL people.

TRUTH.
1/ Policeman bitten by police dog!
2/ Several civilians injured by UAF mob assaulting them.
3/ Sky news van ignored by EDL, but attacked by UAF.
4/ Various Missiles...hurled by ? ? ?... UAF and Muslim thugs!
(who the police ignored)

Here is the evidence.. we report...you decide.

http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/

a) Dog lurches forward, and IS in the precise position to bite the officer..pulling him back.
b) Another officer recoils from...the DOGS...

No..the action is in no way "consistent" with the officer being hit with a missile, not in the slightest because you can SEE what happened to him. (did you see any missile on the ground?)
In any case..the missiles were hurled by Muslims and UAF. (as usual)

PS. ad hominems make me stronger :)

Pericles... my beloved combatant :)

a bit of special attention to your rather idealistic estimation of Mandela and your rather undignified talking down of Yaxley and the EDL.

All the things you mentioned about the experience of Mandela and the Africans in S.A. and the 'last resort' being violence.. you clearly are not very much in the loop.

The actions of the police and Politicians toward patriotic and loyal English lads is pretty much exactly the same, though we have yet to ascertain the whereabouts of a couple of 'dissappeared' lads.

You don't see what's happening, and you seem to just swallow the mainstream media's lies and left wing distortions. I guess that's why your opinion seems to echo those same lies and distortions.

The EDL is now part of a growing world wide movement, and you just have to face up to that. The movement is growing for the same reasons any oppressed people's movement does. White English (and White Australians) by skin color.. are being systematically oppressed and treated with discriminition by activist magistrates.

You know this, but seem to choose to ignore it.

http://www.acrawsa.org.au/ejournalFiles/Volume%204,%20Number%202,%202008/O%27Connell%20Pinned%20Like%20a%20Butterfly%20FINAL.pdf

"I don't believe WHITE people should have the protection of the race discrimination act" (Magistrate Page 7)

Can it be any clearer Pericles? and don't forget those 'white power structures' which must be destroyed.

http://racetraitor.org/abolish.html

How about these ?
http://acrawsa.org.au/ejournal.htm

CATHERINE KOERNER: WHOSE SECURITY? HOW WHITE POSSESSION IS REINFORCED IN EVERYDAY SPEECH ABOUT ASYLUM SEEKERS

MELANIE E. L. BUSH: WHITE WORLD SUPREMACY AND THE CREATION OF NATION: “AMERICAN DREAM” OR GLOBAL NIGHTMARE?

(from that last article)
Through an analysis of heartland
imagery, I explore the co-articulation of
whiteness and American innocence that
characterises the memorial culture of
9/11. First, the article explores how the
American heartland is used to signify
goodness and innocence, and how
such qualities are linked with whiteness.

Forgive me Pericles for noticing that it all seems 'contra white' by skin color.

You only see what you want to see, don't you Boaz.

>>TRUTH. 1/ Policeman bitten by police dog!<<

That is so evidently not the case, I cannot believe - well, actually I can, but it is still difficult - that you do not have it in you to admit that you are wrong.

There were two dogs in the frame. Neither was in a position to attack the policeman from the front, which is the angle of attack that would have caused him to fall backwards. You will also notice, if you bother to look, that the copper on his left actually skips to his left, out of the path of the incoming missile, and then looks backwards to see where it landed.

This is the same "evidence" that you are seeing, Boaz, and it comes from the EDL site, no-one else's.

Mind you, I'm impressed by your back-up cover story:

>>In any case..the missiles were hurled by Muslims and UAF. (as usual)<<

I suppose the dogs were Muslims as well, eh Boaz?

But back to a fact that doesn't need interpretation.

>>Pericles 'surreal' "hook line and sinker" swallowing of a "Hope Not Hate" version (or cut paste of) events in Yaxley's life<<

Are you trying to suggest that Yaxley-Lennon did not do twelve months inside for assault?

And do you still believe that his sordid act of common assault, in a domestic environment, is equivalent to the policies of anti-establishment violence in apartheid South Africa sanctioned by Nelson Mandela?

Or were you actually pro-apartheid? I could easily believe that of you, as it happens.

>>PS. ad hominems make me stronger<<

You mean, this little observation of mine?

"That's quite pathetic in a grown man, you know"

Tell you what.

Your daughter is grown up now, and most likely has a mind of her own. Ask her whether she is comfortable with her dad's ultra-right-wing view of life.

Let her browse your posts on this forum for a while.

Do let me know what she says.

Call me a serial pest.. but it's o--k :)

Pericles.. poor gullible me... 'believing' the EDL version of events at Leicester... how silly of me. Of course I should bow my head in humble penance and spend a few hours of compulsory viewing and reading of good ol Nick Lowles "HopeNotHate" truth site... to be a remedial activity (set by the esteemed (black)Trevor Philips of the 'Equality' commission of course)

Oh..wait.... I spoke too soon... my lawyers P.I. just raced into the court room screaming "NEW EVIDENCE".. and here...it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh_pBLnoTmc

The good bit starts from 2.00

Same footage.. pretty much but from a better perspective where you can see the whole event...police heads to toe and the EDL group.

I look in vain for a 'missile' flying at the constable who 'went down'.. but it's plain as day that "LionHeart" our EDL covert canine operative (specially trained for this task) went forward and grabbed and dragged the constable back and down. "Good job Lionheart"!

So... I promise I won't crow or gloat.. are you prepared to revise your carefully worded 'consistent with a missile strike' now ? :)
Perhaps you could say "Definite canine intervention"

We must discuss something different soon.. economics again would be good.

Sarcasm is not your strongest point, Boaz.

>>Pericles.. poor gullible me... 'believing' the EDL version of events at Leicester... how silly of me. Of course I should bow my head in humble penance<<

We are aware that there isn't the faintest possibility that you can admit that you are wrong. Nevertheless, it is still worth pointing it out to you every so often.

>>Same footage.. pretty much but from a better perspective where you can see the whole event<<

The quality of the video is far better, no doubt about that.

>>...it's plain as day that "LionHeart" our EDL covert canine operative (specially trained for this task) went forward and grabbed and dragged the constable back<<

On the contrary, the improved quality simply underlines my point - the positions of the individuals, their actions and their reactions, are inconsistent with any involvement of the dog, and entirely consistent with a missile hitting the policeman.

The real revelation from the improved-quality video, though, is the close-up-and-personal view of the people you now associate yourself with, Boaz.

What a delightful bunch of thugs they are, to be sure!

Did you show the clip of your new best buddies to your daughter, as I suggested?

I'm dying to find out what she thinks.

Dear Pericles

//On the contrary, the improved quality simply underlines my point - the positions of the individuals, their actions and their reactions, are inconsistent with any involvement of the dog, and entirely consistent with a missile hitting the policeman.//

and...now you know why I began that new thread.

"Politics and Perception"

If the facts suggest I'm wrong..I'll admit it.

Others have viewed the material including a 'frame by frame' examination and the conclusion supports what I said far more than what you said.

The 'facts' as I observe them clearly show the policeman appearing to be 'dragged backward' and our 'covert canine' is right there and his body action/movement supports this.

If the facts are clear.. what does that say about your politics dear P ?

Multiculturalism has failed in so far as to its inadequate attention
to the systemic power that constitutes whiteness as the hidden norm from which “difference” is measured. For white people oblivious to the propensity and invisibility of their own subjectivity, the default is always to return to white ethno - nationalistic defensiveness. Hence they echo each other ad nauseam by declaring over and over again "We can't really tell you what our whiteness and privilege is about - but we want everyone that is not white to aspire to this unexplained and exemplar model of citizenry".

If multiculturalism has failed then it not the fault of those who it attempted to shield and make prosper, but rather those who wanted it to fail.

Comedy is often best served with a classic one-liner, Boaz.

>>If the facts suggest I'm wrong..I'll admit it.<<

Now that IS funny.

Have a great day.

<<Multiculturalism has failed in so far as to its inadequate attention>>

So multiculturalism has failed because we haven't had enough of it!
France has had a much stiffer dose of it than us and look what's happening there.

<<If multiculturalism has failed then it not the fault of those who it attempted to shield and make prosper,
but rather those who wanted it to fail.>>
Rainier's cri de coeur sounds like those apologists for other failed ideologies:
Communism failed because of those wicked capitalists who wanted it to fail!
But let's try again because WE can make it work,
if we could just eliminate the opposition!

Why must all these dystopian ideologues insist on trying to inflict their dreams on others?
They inevitably turn to nightmares.

We haven't had enough of workable multiculturalism in the same way we haven't had enough of 'save the economy by spending more' :)

Pericles, ur priceless. You just demonstrated my point :) and I am having a great day.. back at ya.

Not really, Boaz. Be honest.

>>Others have viewed the material including a 'frame by frame' examination and the conclusion supports what I said far more than what you said.<<

In my view, all you have shown is that video evidence - most particularly in this case - is entirely inconclusive. You want it to prove your point. I am simply saying that it doesn't, and offering an - equally convincing - alternative scenario.

For all we know at the moment, the poor copper could have slipped on a banana skin. There is nothing in the video to suggest otherwise.

And you have the chutzpah to claim that

>>If the facts suggest I'm wrong..I'll admit it.<<

There are no "facts" here, Boaz. Only your wish to show EDL as peaceful demonstrators for freedom, and those who oppose them as the agents of violence.

And I'm afraid that no amount of "facts" will dissuade you from this path.

I'm still intrigued to know what your daughter thinks of this new fascination of yours for white supremacist football hooligans.

Have you asked her yet? I'll bet you haven't - you'd be too ashamed of what she would think of you, wouldn't you.