Water or more correctly water rights have become the new oil.

Part of the privatization process is to shift those rights from farmers and communities into the hands of corporate CEO's and bankers.

Secondly governments that hand those rights over to these players have contributed significantly overuse of water in Australia.

Ask yourself why would a government issue more water rights, when the system is already over used?

Why didn't the Coalition do something about it while they were in power, Sussan? Why did they allocate more water than the basin could handle? Why are you trying to stir anger against the Labor Party now that they are trying to fix the problem? Why aren't those who received the over-allocation expressing some remorse?

Putting the basin right is in the interests of all Australians not just the few who have brought the river to its knees!

http://www.dangerouscreation.com

daveg the states allocated water right as until recently the federal government had no jurisdiction. I understand you want the ALP defended at any cost though, figures. The people who have an allocation, had to pay for it - why should they feel remorse.

The Coalition government tried to fix the problem but had to deal with bloody minded ALP led states who all played politics, surprisingly they cared more about winning points against the PM Howard government then about their own mismanagement.

Turnbull had ministerial power for managing this .. I know all the wet Liberals and "progressives" wanted him to lead the Liberal Party, but even he was unable to get agreement with the states - what a guy!

At the 2007 election, the Coalition had still not been able to get Victoria to agree to hand over power over the rivers, but soon after the election it was handed over and it was quite obvious it had been held out to deliberately embarrass the PM Howard government to win political points. They wanted to deprive the Coalition of a win, and showed how little they cared really about water management .. now we'll have the idiot green/alp/indy coalition to mismanage things .. how about another inquiry? Why now a couple more?

So now the ALP is all about trying to fix it .. of course they are and will make as big a mess of this as they have with everything else.

Whatever it takes eh.

Amicus has been looking into his crystal ball, and it said it was labors fault.
I am waiting for someone to tell me what is wrong with this one.
Rid the river of the barrages at the mouth.
Allow the tidal flow to keep the mouth open as it was meant to.
Install the weirs and locks that were on the drawing board early last century.
Why allow fresh water to run into the ocean.
The coorongs and alexandrena were meant to be tidal.
What is the ecenomic costs of this....

Gillard's ALP is ever mindful that it must pay homage to the Greens balance of power in Parliament.

This water initiative is a key item of homage. Even though it is destructive, ridiculous and will go nowhere for years the ALP can say "this is what the Greens want".

So this water initiative by a politically appointed Authority is an indirect way of pitting rural and coservatives against the Greens - to the benefit of the ALP. The Greens will be painted into a radical environmental corner.

This will cost the Greens dearly from a voter backlash. Swinging enviromentalist votes will then return to the ALP...

Sneaky!

Pete

579, no, really what I'm saying is this is not the previous government, the coalition's fault as daveg was trying to make out.

I do reckon it will be the usual ALP mess as they seem to have no idea about infrastructure management as opposed to deals and mates agreements which they are very good at - so far in almost 3 years everything they touch turns to a mess, except workplace relations, which of course they should be good at since half are ex-unions officials, and that is going back to the 50s though, (who is that good for?)

I agree, remove the barriers and let the Coorong find its balance. Put in the locks and weirs, make a true inland waterway system. Why indeed do we have to have let good fresh water go that way?

mind you this will put the Greens at odds with country folks .. but that's everywhere isn't it, it's only inner city folks who seem to love the greens .. oh and the odd old hippy here and there.

It will expose the Alp and the greens to more scrutiny hopefully and maybe the media will finally get to putting the government to the test instead of always focusing on the opposition, even if it is good fun, they have no power .. well, not yet.

There are a couple of hard truths that farmers in irrigation areas have to face up to.

The first one is that farmers were getting water too cheap. I have been a farmer and I know what you can efficiently grow with a megalitre of water and it made no sense in the past, for water to be costed at about 10 percent of alternative feed sources.

The second one is that there has been massive over allocation of water and that has to stop. In order for this to happen, then some compensation will have to be paid. I have seen figures of up to $2500 per megalitre, which is probably pie in the sky, but whatever amount it finishes up at, it will run into billions of dollars.

Instead of the associated towns and villages suffering because of the reduction of employment in agriculture, the recipients of all this largesse, should invest the money in off farm projects in their own districts and so provide employment and education for those displaced.

The outcome of all this could well be a win-win situation for both the farmers and the environment. How about the farmer organisations getting their heads out of the sand and seeking to find constructive practical solutions to what is undoubtedly a very compicated process, instead of just being pig headed and negative.

David

You forgot or didn't know that in around the year 2000 Albury/Wodonga region experienced a minor earth-quake, something like a M3. Strangle the Hume Weir group declared the dam wall was damaged and it needed repair. Well what they did is released water till the dame was approx. 15% full. This was the year 200, just before the century drought that has just broke and was used to proport so called Global-Warming. This is the reason why the water wasn't available though 2000-2010.

Was there damage to the Hume Dam wall? Well the best I could see if they had some basic scaffolding setup and some divers going in here and there and you heard nothing afterward. You just saw the dam drained to near empty. Conspiracy? Highly possible. We are talking International interested in our water system here, both to buy up and control at a world level.

Farmer need to declare any no-Government body invalid and continue to use their constitutional right to irrigate without restrictions for proper use of the river water. see s.100 Aust.Constitution.

That your choice, United Nations control, or Australians!

If the dismantelling of the barrages is a good idea, then there would not be any need to cut any water quotas. Is that correct or not.
The sea will be doing what they need the extra water for. Yes or no.

It isn't quite that simple. When the water in the Coorong is saltier than the sea, which it is at the moment, then the barrage should be opened to let all the very salty water out. For some bizarre reason the people in charge seem to be very reluctant to do this. The barrage should then remain open until some fresh water comes down the river. I presume that the original reason for the barrage was to stop sea water from going back up the river, but for various reasons, one of which is the low flow coming down the river, this concept has been self defeating as the lakes are now much saltier than the sea. The farmers who relied on the brackish water from the lakes have been deprived of this water since the level has dropped and in any case it is now too salty. It could well be argued that these farmers need to be looked after, but considering the present increasing demand for water upstream, I suspect that they will be sacrificed on the alter of expediency.

That being said, the main aim of the water reforms is not to save the Coorong, but to restore the health of the whole river system which has been brought to its knees by the over allocation of water. Incidentally, the over allocation doesn't only apply to the surface streams, it also applies to the underground aquifers which are rapidly becoming depleted and if pumped down too far will also become salty. The Coorong can be saved by just opening the barrage and letting the tidal flows operate as they did before the smart white men thought that they could do better.

David

So you are saying there is more to it than keeping the mouth open.
How will extra flow help the river system. once the water has flowed there will be no more.
A regulated flow is surely better than a torrent when it rains and nothing when it doesen't rain.
Why was cotton ever allowed to be grown in AU. Isn't that the worst water user of all time.
I think if water savings have got to be made everybody has got to share in the deal.
The currant proposed water solution will not do a thing for river health. The water can only pass once.

Don't worry,

If this begins to influence opinion polls, Julia Gillard will drop it like a hot potato.

Remember she said because of the hung parliament she feels no obligation to honour her election promises.

I think country people have a right to feel the MDBP is an act of sabotage.

Governments develop policy and set up schemes such as irrigation now at issue. People, in good faith, take advantage of these schemes, build their lives and livelihoods around them and are then betrayed by government in the way now proposed.

My father was a farmer and relied on water rights he bought to irrigate his farm. He always felt water was poorly managed and that governments were at fault. He would be very distressed by what is happening as, like many farmers, farming was in his blood.

I know little about the Murray River and, judging by the comments back and forth above, am to become no wiser. This is the same with the so-called AGW debate. For the ordinary person it goes nowhere and this one seems to be heading in the same direction. A great pity, as so many lives hinge on the outcome.

I would like to also point out, as has been done above, that the Howard Government did try to tackle the water situation but were constantly and quite agressively politicked against by state Labor governments intent on helping their Canberra brethren.

It's just a pity that politicians are not made to pay the cost of this debacle as they richly deserve to - both past and present politicians. If all they can do is play politics with people's lives so unfeelingly, then they are a morally bankrupt mob and none more so than the present government.

I still live in a country town - one being encroached on by urban development - and know many here are furious about the MDBP.

They know they rely on farmers for good produce and don't want to be buying imported stuff. I think when push comes to shove country people are going to get massive support from their city cousins, and I'm glad to say, Mr. Bob Brown, Ms. Gillard and their environmental plans are in for a kicking. The sooner the better, I reckon.

579, dismantling the barrages would be good for keeping the mouth open naturally, allowing a bigger tidal water exchange between the sea and the lakes. Also the threat of acid soils would be nullified.

Not so good for those with facilities designed for the normal lakes level of 80cm above sea level, and those irrigating from the lakes.

Cotton uses a medium amount of water, similar to citrus from memory, twice that of wheat and roughly half that of rice. The problem, to whatever extent, is that allocations were distributed and farmers choose to grow cotton with that allocation. Not growing cotton would only see that same amount of water used elsewhere for wheat or sunflowers, for lesser returns. Or grapes for no return. I think failing to get the best value for the water would be a waste.

VK3AUU, I think there is some confusion about the Coorong, it is connected directly to the sea via the Murray mouth, and has always been saltier than the sea. The barrages seperate the lakes from the common area that is the Western Coorong/Murray Mouth. The barrages cannot let salty water anywhere but back into the lakes, and can't do that at present either as the lakes are 67cm above sea level and all gates are open letting fresh water out to the sea. Obviously that doesn't get the same attention as dry lake beds did.
The fact that so much water is passing through the nearly full lakes despite no significant buyback water assistance, no doubt is fuelling some of the anger at the MDBA plan.

Labor has never had a connection to the land or its families only the union movement, power,money and influence at all costs and their greens have only contempt for anyone who uses the land which is on display daily through their continued reduction in prescribed burning, tells a story.

My suggestion is that we should canvas the ability to increase the capacity of the Hume Dam .
Wymah might be a good location for a new wall. Another might be Tallangatta where two possibilities should be examined , walling off a valley that runs about South and pumping from the Hume or piping from the Mitta Mitta Dam .
All the BuyBack water arrangements are Negative thinking and the MIA solution is just plane Stupid .

TheBThing, Friday, 15 October 2010 2:13:36 PM
about 1970 a safty survey of the Hume Dam revealed a rather startling fact that the wall had moved vertically i think it was about 14 mm and an investigation revealed a sand layer in the strata way below the dam wall had become wet and expanded lifting the wall 14mm and compromising the integrity of the wall.
This revelation caused panic in the Albury area.
The solution was to set anchors upstream and steel cables layed back to the wall to allay the water pressure that could potentually topple the wall. Much argument when the wall was being built compromised the wall especially the earthen part of the wall adjcent to the concrete and beyond caused by Political imperitives as the cost had blown out and public support had critically waned , the Pollies panicked and shortcuts compromised the integrity of the earthen part of the wall.

Can't the Coorong be seperated from the lakes. Allowing tidal flow to keep the mouth open. While holding back fresh water at the lake.
There seems little depth in any of it. i don't see what adding water mid streem is going to acheive. Once the water has flowed you can't get it back.

Gday Everybody, a little history lesson for you.

Before the GFC of 2008, the SM crash of 1987 followed by the 1989/90 recession we had to have, the Great Depression of the early 1930's following the SM crash of 1929, there was in the land of OZ, the Depression of the 1890's. Which saw among other things, along the way, the shearers strike & formation of the ALP.

What caused it? Well most of the blame can in fact be sheeted home to a drought across all of central OZ, early on in the 1890's & even earlier still in the late 1880's. The mouth of the Mighty River Murray stopped flowing, no irrigation, no dams or weirs or Snowy River Scheme, just not enough water in the system naturally, from rainfall in the catchment area.

Farming activity was massively curtailed by the drought & river boat transportation, as well.

The drought eventually was broken by the return of rainfall, according to the cyclical weather patterns.

This however is different. We are talking here about the permanent cessation of at least some farming activity in the "Food Bowl of OZ".

Bear in mind also that the entire, world economy including China is about to go into GFC series 2, or "Double Dip" Recession. Where do they get that "Double Dip Recession" idea from anyway, there never were any "Green Shoots" in the US or any other economy for that matter.

Care to Re think anything, Loony, Lefties? Or are you determined to press ahead with your plans for Economic Sabotage in the "Land of OZ"?

When your religion teaches man at the bottom of the food chain everything always degenerates to the lowest common denominator, Scum, dirtbag, slease, monkey, Homer Simpson.
When the religion teaches Truth, Man is elevated to the top of the food chain great advances in medicine, food production, and all other areas of life on Planet Earth occur. If you chose a Godless life don't blame God when everything collapses. With rights come responsibilities. Our responsibility is to tend Gods great garden. The greens believe man is the cause of all the problems, Global warming, drought, corruption, greed, so he must be at the bottom of the order, so we shut up the rivers, the forests, the factories, and stop all development and job creation and go back to a world of pitiful hunter gatherers and redistribute the wealth through taxes. Degenerate to the lowest common denominator. Never let the truth get in the road of a good story.

Richie, Richie, Richie.

If man kills off the only life support systems that allows you to live in your" as you say" god made the Eden you all are so proud of making your money from, and wouldn't it be fair to say that If I have a friend that's religious, And I just got off the phone with one, and he said to me to tell you that "GOD Made HIM to look after his world that he made for all his children/us" Well I might introduce you two brothers and I'll be sitting right there to see what a green god-brother and a non green-brother has to say. I will pay money to hear the both of you. SMILE

Noah, by gods orders, was told to take two of everything, which would be a very neat trick by the way, 'and I get the basic understanding that he saw this as a very high priority, ( even thou he could whip a new world up in six days or so) and that my friend,is how it see it......... mate! GOD sounds like a greeny to me buddy. SMILE. Or maybe he made the greeny god person, just to stop the not so greeny god persons from going out of control.

Please Richie! Tell me whats the go.

"The greens believe man is the cause of all the problems, Global warming, drought, corruption, greed,............AND? smile.

" Well! its your GOD.

Well? tell us what he said when it comes to taking responsibility of his great gift?

Did he say" heres a perfectly good planet, go and screw it! and when the 4 horsemen come back,( rollie eyes ) I'll beam all you followers up, and she'll be right mate! I'll fix it and just put all you good people back, and we'll play it again SAM.

Ok. Heres the mail. The coming for Christ is just around the corner, OK! Lets say, I'll get back to you at around 2015 or so and we will see if your right.

Hey! Iam open minded.

smile.

TTM<

He summed it up very neatly with "Put God first and love one another."

Why were so many water allocations handed out on a dying river system in the first place. But what's done is done - what for the future.

There is a lot of histrionics and exagerations in reaction to this proposal and many rural dwellers also believe the river system is dying and that governments are failing to act - just speak to the people in the Coorong and the mouth of the Murray.

How do we save a river system?

This is an opportunity for governments to build regional areas by means other than water intensive crops and decentralise some of the functions of government and create incentives for business in regional areas by a VFT and other infrastructure.

It is not in anyone's interest especially those rural residents most affected to create ghost towns in the bush. Continuing to populate highly arable areas along the coast and hinterland is also a waste of good arable land where there are higher rainfalls such as the North Coast of NSW, South Coast and the like.

Governments may have to compensate farmers or small/medium businesses in the event of the worst case, after all they pay out enough on corporate welfare. But it should not have to come to that. The human impact will only be severe if there are no other mechanisms used to keep those towns alive.

Surely with all broad consultation we can come up with something, but one things is for sure if we let the river system down we all lose.

TTM The 21 may 2011 is the go. Thats when it happens. Richie knows that.
Lets have a look at the whole river not just one region.
More weirs and locks, Taking water away from food is a stupid idea, even if some of that food is drinkable. God likes a drop of red you no.
This idea was never going to work, A much broader look is in order.

TTM The 21 may 2011 is the go. Thats when it happens. Richie knows that.

597. I know he knows. It will be most interesting. I think I'll mark it down on my calendar too. Smile.

I thought the answers was clear in what the best angle was.

As I see it, investment in infrastructure like a centralized man-made water source of the grandest ever seen, and when water from flood times or storms bloats the river systems, huge pumping stations with giant water moving capacities along with a direct underground pipelines filling this five football field size concrete hole in the ground, and in a short time, all will have more water than one knows what to do with. ( 500 to 1000 meters deep. An upside down pyramid shape and decline )

Then When up and running( a year or two to fill it ), The next seasons of flood waters comes ( and this time with NO agriculture drain ) through and flush all that's needed and the environment which is directly at the main blunt end of the stick, comes back to life almost over-night so to speak.

This is BIG PICTURE THINKING and since our continent is the driest in the world,( and getting drier for a long time to come ) and higher demands from the our systems, which will not hold up as our population will grow to the 44 million, and NO one is getting ready for it!

We might have the best brains/lifestyles in the world, but we don't have the best visions That the 21 century will demand! The end game will be, that all our systems will crash and fail, and that will hurt all.

We all know it! Its only a matter of time.

If Australia does not think BIG in the near future, sorry!

The collapse of this counties systems will be fast, and the economy will be a slow and dieing one.

It your choice Australia!

WATER! When you have it! your a winner. WATER!

And its as simple as that.

TTM

This situation over the Murray-Darlin is a power grab by the United Nations. In the long run the Snowy River Scheme will be sold and then that will mark an era where all water will be sold down stream.

If you want to stop this take over from Internationalists, then you need contest any group acting in a Government role, or foreign powers. You must non-comply with any take over and entrench the right stated in the Constitution s.100 to irrigate without limits.

And still No answer to the best actions concerning our predicament.

And you all wonder why our/Your government has to employ out-side help. lol.

Start thinking............or...........loose the lot! and you know what I mean.

Good luck.

TT

579, the lakes are fully seperated from the Coorong by the barrages and they do just as you say. The Coorong is connected to the sea via the mouth. I think the problem is because of the barrages there is not enough water volume exchanging between the coorong and the sea to keep the Mouth open. The southern ocean can shift enough sand to block the mouth with out a consistent clearing flow.

The lakes lose 800GL a year in evaporation, and are held some 80cm above sea level. They were not freshwater all the time, yet that is what people now expect them to be. So much so that they were going to risk acid soils rather than allowing nature to take it's course and let saltwater back in. And then use acid soils as the basis for more water.
The average annual flow to the Coorong/Sea(maybe not adjusted for the last 5 years results) is still over 5000GL, enough to turnover the whole lakes volume 2.5 times as it is.

[Deleted. Off topic.]

We should be building more dams.153,000GL pours into the ocean in Nth Qld,and hardly a drop is harvested.We have become the can't do nation and have made ourselves slaves to the large corporate interests.The trading of water rights will see the big end of town own amd control most of our farms.We will soon be net importers of food soon if we do not wake up.

The Greens are controlled by the large corporate interests.Just look at who send them donations.

Dear Arjay,
The tree huggers have been around for a long time going right back to the beginning. The lust for money is the root of much evil. What has that to do with control. When man try's to dominate and control other men, God takes his hand of blessing off a nation and lack becomes the norm, hence when men allow idols eg money to stop them putting God first, the curse comes into play. The modern green movement was started by the rich and powerful who love money and control. Jesus showed us how to bring correct order to our lives so that the blessing would again flow and we would become like a tree planted by a river flowing through a dry land.
Possible with God. Impossible for man. All the buy backs and controls do not put one drop of water in the rivers and when man plays God over other men the curse comes into play and mismanagement and corruption becomes the norm. I have been around long enough to see society go from law abiding to dishonesty becoming the norm. That is not to say that everybody is dishonest, just that the benchmarks have been lowered so prideful people see the perceived need to manage others lives. Control versus serventhood. One leads to the death of a society, the other causes the society to flourish.