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Arjay,

Containing China ?! Check this out: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-10/08/content_8767743.htm and see who is doing the heavy lifting for whom, and who is piggy-backing on whom.

Yes, vanna, the Yanks are so dopey that they didn't think of that before they rigged those buildings. But, hey, you did, which just goes to prove your cleverness :)

To get back to the topic: yes, pumping money into schools, and teacher training institutions as quickly as possible, particularly for teachers to work in schools for girls, would be a win-win situation for both the Coalition and for Afghan women (and win-win-win, if we count the ultimate benefits of stability to China and its investment policies).

But ironically, the longer the Coalition is in the country, and the more effective an educational program for girls might be, the more brutal the Taliban would be, wherever it could re-establish itself.

So that's the dilemma: do 'we' stay and finish the job, no matter how longer it takes (come on, Arjay, tell me that it can never be finished), or do 'we' withdraw, give the country over to the Taliban and every other pro-Khilafa group as a safe haven, and bugger the millions of girls and women ? And all of the men who have supported them ?

Or is education, free speech and freedom of expression bad because the Yanks claim to be supporting them ? US bad, therefore Taliban good ? Is that the level of thinking that the 'Left' has sunk to ?

Jo

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The point of this article is being lost already. The fact is that helping people is a vastly better option than killing them.

Unfortunately this fact is lost on the Americans who appear to believe that dropping a bomb on, or firing a missile at someone, will lead to peace and unity and democracy. Of course, they don't really believe this but it is a good camouflage for their blatant imperialism and the fact that they make money from war.

It's up to America's allies to tell them to stick their 'endless war' policy up where the sun don't shine! Hopefully this will happen this week when Afghanistan is debated in the Parliament!

P.S. Will all those Aussie war-lovers keep in mind that Australia is in the middle of a Muslim world. America isn't.

http://www.dangerouscreation.com

Loudmouth,
BTW. Thanks for your previous abuse. It only goes to show that "education" does not always work, or in your case it hasn't much.

But why does China fear al-Qaida?

Vanna,

Thanks for the serve. Why does China fear al-Qaida ?

1. Its western colony, Xinjiang, PLUS Qinghai, PLUS Muslim areas in Yunnan and elsewhere - together these make up about a third of China's imperial territory. Afghanistan borders its territory in Xinjiang;

2. Overland, China's trade routes go through Muslim countries, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, etc., which are not particularly stable politically, and which would be easily infiltrated by Islamists from Afghanistan if it fell to the Taliban. China is increasingly dependent on these countries for its oil and gas supplies;

3. In Africa and the Middle East, al-Qaida and its affiliates (AQIM, AQAP) are harassing Chinese mining projects in a number of countries. China knows that it would not be difficult for al-Qaida to incite locals against Chinese on racist, political, economic and social grounds.

The Chinese government would be very well-advised to fund the education which Brian is advocating, for its own long-term interests - not to mention other infrastructure projects.

Joe

For goodness sake... WAKE THE HECK UP Brian Holden...your thinking seems unrelated to the strategic issues facing the world.

The US and Australia are in Afghanistan for STRATEGIC reasons of self defense.

Here is how it works.

1/ Taliban victory/re-taking of Afghanistan
2/ Taliban then move at removing the secular/lukewarm muslim regime in Pakistan
3/ Taliban get their filthy paws on NUKES... and if they don't obliterate the idolatrous Indians (and themselves) over Kashmir, they will surely have a go eventually at 'the great satan' in New York.

So...no matter whether we win hears and minds or not.. we are STUCK there as long as Pakistan is not absolutely rock solid and stable.

My gripes are as follows:

1/ END all poppy production forthwith..and just take the reaction as it comes. If it produces hard core enemies.. deal with them in a very final/terminal manner.
2/ Forget trying to understand Tribal societies from a secular humanist perspective..it is not going to happen in this or the next lifetime.
3/ As for how to produce a stable government in AFghanistan? Forget that too..it's impossible.

4/ The best solution is

a) Forget that 'human rights' exist..because they simply do NOT for the tribal mob or their lords.
b) Divide the country into Pashtoon areas and Turkmen areas (with their own governments)
c) Put the Hazzara's where they are least likely to be liquidated (whether they like it or not) (remember..the Hazzar'as did their OWN dirty work against others..which is why they are now reaping their 'reward')

5/ Work with both for the exploitation of the natural resources in a fair and amicable sharing manner.

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Joe Loudmouth,

A further question. Where does al-Qaida get its arms supplies?

Also I’m not certain that education by itself stops wars. Iraq had an educated population, but invaded Kuwait, and countries such as Germany and Japan had an educated population, but invaded everyone.

Also not certain that women will stop wars, educated or not.

Highly educated women such as Hillary Clinton, Margaret Thatcher, Condoleezza Rice, Madeleine Albright etc have no record of ending wars.

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It seems to me that we have not yet learned the lesson presented by Greg Mortenson, and until we do then the war in Afghanistan will continue. The continual killing of both active combatants who in another context would be regarded as partisans, and innocent women and children, by what can only be described as an invading army, must come to an end. The billions of American dollars are doing nothing for the Afghan population, the money is just going into the pockets of the warlords who in turn are passing a lot of it over to the Taliban in protection money.

We should get our army out of the place and let the natives go back to their tribal form of government and forget about trying to turn the country into a democracy.

As a final note, if anything real comes out of Canberra this week I will be very surprised, in view of the fact that both sides of parliament seem intent on cosying up to the Yanks.

David

I agree with the author in that I believe education is one of the most effective ways forward for places like Afghanistan.

Education will lead to better employment and a higher standard of living.

If the women and girls in this country were given a proper education, they will want the same for their children.

Maybe then there would be no need for disaffected young men looking for answers at the feet of violent, radical Muslim clerics and their like.

I more or less agree with AIR, and vaguely with the author, my reasons for this differing POV is my experience in South Pacific Nations.

It's terrific and we all feel good educating people and wanting this to lift their lives out of the primitive state they are in. However, if all this does is frustrate them because they cannot then join the modern society and partake of it, but now know so much more, then is it gift or a curse?

In PNG the Christian missions all went out into the jungles, established schools and educated people, great for them, not so great for those receiving it in the long run. This education gave the villagers a false sense of hope that they could all be teachers, doctors, engineers etc. The reality is they could not do these things.

Many of the young villagers all want a piece of the action they have all learned about, so gravitate tot he big cities, where there is no opportunity, no welfare, no system at all to support them. The big towns are full of young people who have turned to crime as the only way to survive because they all wanted a "better life".

It's the same in the rest of the world where the do gooders go to do what they think is a wonderful thing, but for the recipients, only a fraction of them can take it up, for the rest it is just a wasted exercise.

In PNG, the missionaries have done so much damage to the society, and I can only surmise the same will happen in other primitive societies.

How are these girls going to benefit from an education? If the education teaches them to question their faith or their menfolk, then it could even be deadly.

Sometimes it's better to just leave people to their primitive state, they are still happy, not knowing more than they need to.

We should not be determining what is good or bad for them, they are stuck in a primitive cycle and will be held there by their beliefs.

I have a much better idea.

Let's not do any harm and let's also not try to do any good. The former is by definition bad. The latter usually ends in tears for all. The road to hell really is paved with good intentions.

What we should do is GET OUT of Afghanistan and Pakistan and STAY OUT.

No soldiers and NO officially sanctioned DO-GOODERY either.

The only problem is Pakistan's nukes. If Pakistan implodes who gets them?

I assume that the Americans and Indians have a joint contingency plan to seize the nukes with the help of corrupt Pakistani officials who doubltess have received large sums for their assistance. That's the only intervention we should contemplate.

Dear lentaub

You said:

"In PNG, the missionaries have done so much damage to the society, and I can only surmise the same will happen in other primitive societies"

I know LOTS about PNG and the amazing mission school scene there.
I also know the deep appreciation felt by PNG indigenous people.
I guess there might be schools run by non evangelical missions which are a big dodgy..so I'll not make a blanket statement that they are all good.
Please note...this is not a 'bash missionaries' thread :) You can have one more go (the other cheek) then..it's curtains for you (grin)

Now.. back to the issue/topic.
Most of you who seem to promote the idea of us 'helping' them (Muslim world) by giving them "education" might ask yourselves 'education in....what'? Presumably you think Western secular Humanistic based education is what they need ? ROFL.

I wish all of you who seem to think that way would actually GO and live among tribal people for a few years.. it would change your outlook dramatically.
Add the "Muslim" factor to the tribal factor and it's further complicated. The education you wish to supply would not be received unless it also included an 'Islamic' theme/focus...and I'm not sure we really want or need that.

ALGOREisRICH

Huh?

I didn't even know there were missionaries in PNG and I certainly haven't made any comments about them.

Have you gone off your meds again?

I agree lentaubman;

Modernization and assistance in another country (one that might not be too happy with us) only achieves anything positive when the people there are already secular/modern-thinking enough to accept it.

Some theocratical places that follow Shariah enthusiastically would not only reject these things but will treat it as a hostile act by us to deviate people from their religion, or demand an equal cultural exchange of their regressive belief system for our medicine, culture and technology we offer them.

By staying away from them we achieve relations with them that are much more comfortable for both sides and less likely to end in tears.

My policy- no bombs, no books- if they would ever want our help, they can ask for it first.

King Hazza wrote:

>>if they would ever want our help, they can ask for it first.>>

That's about the sanest comment I've seen on this thread.

And I'll go a step further. They should have to pay something for any help we supply even if it's only 50 cents in the dollar. That way we'll know they really want our help.

However I'm excepting disaster relief from this. Obviously if there's a flood, a tsunami or an earthquake we all rush help to the scene.

Thanks vanna,

<<Where does al-Qaida get its arms supplies?>> Wouldn't have a clue, but I wouldn't be surprised if they get their arms from every arms selling country, directly and/or indirectly.

You're right, education by itself doesn't stop wars. But in this case, anything that weakens the vile pre-medieval patriarchy in Afghan culture should be welcome. Not all cultural practices are equal, King Hazza, not racist practices, slavery (for men or women) is not equivalent to freedom, equal human rights are not equivalent to their opposites, women's rights are incompatible with Shari'a law, with the Koran, and with tribal law. And education will give women options, even basic education, not just training as teachers and doctors and architects.

And no, educating women will not stop wars. Some educated women go along with wars. Yes, yes, yes. But all things being equal, and in situations where education means hope, the opportunity for choice and for the expression of humanity, I'd give it a go. As long as it loosens the bonds of patriarchy and medieval culture, it's fine by me, chauvinist that I am. Preservation of culture ? Couldn't give a toss.

Frankly, what I expect to see in the next ten years, if the Coalition stays in Afghanistan, is a very divided society, with the men way-back, and the women racing ahead. In other words, if the men don't want to join the world, let's not stop the women from wanting to do so. After all, we are talking about a society whose maxim about women is: "The only place for a woman is either in the home or in thegrave." This is a society which has been at war with its women, who are little more than the breeding chambers for the next generation of boys. Such a society does not deserve to endure, as a society. Put that in your bong and smoke it.

Joe

AIS my point about PNG is that the same hand wringing "we have to do something" for the natives/primitives/villagers everywhere has differing outcomes -often the motivation is more for those delivering the educating, than looking at what the receivers need most, if they need it at all and if they can use such an education.

it's incredibly arrogant to go into primitive societies with the view that anything you can teach them is of benefit, it might be to you, but not to them always.

I know first hand the result of the christian mission in PNG .. you might know of the missionaries, but have you seen the social results of their work. Not just hear how wonderful the work is from the missionaries .. go look at the big towns full of kids who wanted a better life and get nothing, as the villages empty and there will not be another generation of villagers. Who is that good for? the missionaries all pat each other on the back, another year of graduates .. with nowhere to go and no way to use their education.

This article is more of the same. Assuming that wanting to help primitive peoples alone is a good reason to do it.

Why not just leave them alone .. and if they ask for help, fine, otherwise you have no idea what a social disturbance you are causing, what effects it will have in 20 years when all the educated kids leave to follow their dreams, flock to the cities and clog it up with dreamers.

It's not bashing missionaries, it's asking if the social arrogance of the west is really needed, yes they may be primitive .. and happy that way.

Joe Loudmouth,
No, education does not stop wars. Nor does it stop terrorism.

By various accounts, about 60% of Al Qaeda have tertiary education, and of course their leader (if still alive) has or had a degree in civil enginerring.

This article gives some actual figures of Muslim terrorists:-

“he found that 17.6 per cent were upper class, 54.9 per cent middle class, and 27.5 per cent lower class.

16.7 per cent were educated to a level less than high school; 12.1 per cent had at least a high school education; 28.8 per cent had some college education; 33.3 per cent had a college degree; and nine per cent had a postgraduate degree.

Of 265 of his subjects, only 9.4 per cent had a religious education, and 90.6 per cent had a secular education.”

http://www.spiked-online.com/articles/0000000CA5E4.htm

On the other side, Hilary Clinton has a law degree from Yale, George Bush has a MBA from Harvard, Condoleezza Rice is currently a professor at Stanford, and the charming bundle of fun Donald Rumsfield has been awarded eleven honorary degrees.

So education does not stop wars.

I would think that it must be known where the terrorists are procuring their weaponry, because plenty of terrorists have been captured.

But where or how they are procuring their weaponary has not actually been told to the public.

Dear Allegedly Well Intentioned Loony Lefties, Does anybody know the death rate among Christian Missionaries in Pakistan? A, 95%.

Many Western teachers there to "Help" have also been accused of being "Christians, distributing Bibles" & also Murdered.

I propose we deport all members of the Radical, Extreme, Loony Left factions of the Red/green/getup/labour Communist Coalition plus the Socialist Alliance to all Islamic nations, so that they can, "Be the Change they want to see".

Please go there, educate the girls & leave all the boys behind to be "Educated" in a "Madrasa".

Your 5 year "Plans for Failure" have done wonders for "Education" in the land of OZ.

vanna - they make their own weapons, an A-47 can be made anywhere you have a reasonable lathe, as can RPGs, then you need various chemicals to make powder, not hard to obtain and percussion caps - slightly more complicated not but insurmountable.

All the AK-47s and RPGs used by Al Qaida can be and are made in towns like Peshawar in Pakistan, in Kabul or anywhere there are enterprising capitalists.

Educating fitters and turners in these countries enables mechanical skills, then reading and writing to get plans and understand them ..

they don't have to go outside their own areas to get reasonable weaponry .. if they want SAMs, that's another thing - we never hear of all the old SAMs given to mujahadin by the USA to use against Russia way back when, because they are a more sophisticated weapon with solid fuel, that ages .. yes, it has a use by date and when that is up, it is unstable .. best not to use at all.

you don't have to find a bogey man in the west

Amicus,
A car bomb is normally not that sophisticated, but I would think that an MK-47 would have to be properly designed before it could shoot straight, or shoot more than 10 rounds.

It is a tangled web when there is some evidence that Russia has been supplying the Taliban with weaponary, when previously Rusiian fought a decade long war against the Taliban.

And some evidence that the US taught Afgans how to make car bombs, so that they could set them off in towns in Russia.

There are underlying causes for all the trouble and stife, but I don't think lack of education is one of them.

"That's about the sanest comment I've seen on this thread."
Thankyou lentaubman, I was thinking the exact same thing about your propositions.

And I also agree- excluding disaster relief, we should not be offering any of our assets or assistance for free either- their willingess to actually pay would indeed suggest that there is enough support for our presence than to go blindly in and get a nasty shock;