Dear runner,

I totally disagree with you on this issue.

You call it "legalised killing?"

Why are you not content to let a person die
in peace and serenity when they are in great
pain, have lost their functional and mental
independence and are only being kept alive
by artificial means? Why do you think it
just that doctors pursue a vigorous therapy
that would benefit no one except their own
satisfaction in twarting death, regardless
of the consequences?

Can't you see that technologies that were
intended to save people from unnecessary
death are actually having the effect of
depriving them of a dignified death?

And you call their right to die - "legalised
killing?"

How do you feel about capital punishment?

King Hazza,

MY point was that, at the simplest level, suicide should be legal, it should not be a criminal act. Of course, counselling, etc. should be available.

At a more complex level, of a person suffering a terminal illness, whether in a hospital, hospice or at home, if that person was still capable of operating, say, a morphine pump, then that person should have access to such means, to administer their own treatment. But, given the necessary involvement of some health care provider in this case, the oversight of this process, in practice, would have to be formally supervised by qualified staff. But the bottom line here would still be the self-administration of the process. I think this may conform to your scenario, or one of them.

We get into very tricky territory when we start talking about people who do not have the physical means to self-administer. If people cannot self-administer, how do they indicate their wishes one way or the other ? Yes, a quadriplegic person perhaps can speak, and therefore can indicate orally before appropriate witnesses, etc. Perhaps, like Javier Bardim in 'The Sea Inside', he can suck from a poisoned drink through a straw - after all, this is still an act of personal autonomy.

But where people cannot do even this, how does one know their intentions ? Issues of cost, 'quality of life', etc. should play absolutely no part in any of this, by the way - these are mealy-mouthed erosions of personal autonomy which should be ignored. So clearly, there are boundaries around what is permissible and what is not.

And surely, as somebody wrote in a newspaper today, we should be putting much more into palliative care and pain relief ? Sometimes, I wonder if a lot of this sanctimonious talk about deep concern and compassion does not constitute something of a straw-man ?

[TBC]

King Hazza and Foxy,

As an atheist and a socialist, I do think we must be very circumspect about playing around with people's lives:

* people are precious (what on earth would socialism look like without people, in all their variety and foibles ?)

* and we each get only one life, with nothing before and nothing after. There are no gods, not even one, and never have been.

Frankly, I am appalled at a sort of death-oriented ideology which is being promoted, implicitly passed off as 'Left', which devalues life, people and the future. A sort of Goth Left, I suppose. Surely, socialism or the Left should be life-affirming, people-affirming, future-oriented ?

Oh well, back to your cave, Rip Van Winkle.

Foxy you ask

'Why are you not content to let a person die
in peace and serenity when they are in great
pain, have lost their functional and mental
independence and are only being kept alive
by artificial means? Why do you think it
just that doctors pursue a vigorous therapy
that would benefit no one except their own
satisfaction in twarting death, regardless
of the consequences?'

I did not know I did support the above. I actually think anybody should be able to reject being kept alive by medical means. I also think we should relieve the pain and suffering of people as much as possible. Why is it that those who support euthanasia are so quick to be self righteous and demonizes anyone opposed to it. Certainly many in Holland has lost their life involuntarily due to 'voluntary euthanasia.

Talking about a person's right to die is different than talking about a doctors right to kill. Again look at the dishonesty of arguemnets of those argueing for killing the unborn have used over the years. You know as well as I do it is now about 'rights' not compassion or decency.

I said before I have no problem with 'voluntary' euthanasia but the track record of these social reformers shows that when it comes to life and death they can't be trusted. I smell another death industry in the air. The killing of babies is disgusting enough.

How do you feel about capital punishment?

For certain crimes yes.

Hey! Rip van winle and company.

Yes I do agree that this topic has been run over to the point of unretreivable road kill, but there's still little problem with voluntary euthanasia.

When in a coma or brain dead etc, I mean, voluntary euthanasia as I understand it, would be a very neat trick.

Can any-one please demonstrate how this is done. lol, I cant wait for this one.

TTM>

I would have thought that this example was a fly in YOUR ointment, TTM, where voluntary euthanasia was clearly out of the question.

Some problems don't have solutions, TTM, at least not neat and tidy ones.

But isn't it intriguing how often discussions about 'voluntary euthanasia' slide, ever so compassionately and with great regard to quality of life, into how society needs to find ways to ease the departure of Alzheimer's patients, people in vegetative states, and people in other situations in which 'VE' should be clearly ruled out. Yes, it is inconvenient for those people to be taking up space, using up taxpayers' dollars, requiring staff and resources - what do we do with such useless people ?

In one of Arthur Upfield's 'Bony' novels ('The New Shoe, 1951, p. 98) an old bloke complains:

"The younger generation think only of money.... Stay in the country and carry on when their fathers want to let go ? No. Country life is no good for them. Let the old man die quickly. They want the cash. Never a thought to give in return.... "

So there's nothing much new under the sun :)