Jason and runner: Your posts just pointed out to me that I put:

Same sex love *or marriage* mentioned throughout the Bible 12 times, while the sin of hatred is mentioned 21 times, lying and false testimony 30, greed, avarice and covetousness 40, theft 42, adultery 52, murder 57, self-righteousness 79, and idolatry 169 times. I don't think even rape gets much of a look in.

I shouldn't have included the word "marriage" (as in formal recognition). The reason I did was that I'd just read:

# Is a consensual homosexual relationship any more abominable to God than the worldliness and other sins that we are all guilty of? (Matthew 5:21-22, 5:27-28, 6:24-25, Mark 7:20-23, Luke 17:26-27, Colossians 3:2, 1 Timothy 6:10, 2 Timothy 3:2-7, Hebrews 13:5, etc.)

and

1 Corinthians 7:7-9, Jesus saying:

7 - I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has a particular gift from God, one having one kind and another a different kind. 8 - To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain unmarried as I am. 9 - But if they are not practicing self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion.

runner: Is Jesus is talking about his own celibate, unmarried state in contrast to others? How do you interpret "each particular gift" and "one kind and another a different kind" ?

He recommends marriage for the unmarried (which I take to mean male and female, not just female) in preference to being "aflame with passion."

Anyway it would have been better to have said:

Same sex love or homosexuality is mentioned throughout the Bible 12 times, while the sin of hatred is mentioned 21 times, lying and false testimony 30, greed, avarice and covetousness 40, theft 42, adultery 52, murder 57, self-righteousness 79, and idolatry 169 times. I don't think even rape gets much of a look in.

cont'd

I also took into consideration:

# Is the New Testament prohibition against homosexual acts an important spiritual law for all times? Or was it more just a warning against creating a scandal by violating the cultural norms of that time in history, as in the case of slavery (1 Corinthians 7:21-22, Ephesians 6:5-6), the role of women (1 Corinthians 14:33-35), dress (1 Corinthians 11:4-7), etc.?

# Are homosexual acts especially serious sins, as suggested by Leviticus 20:13? Or are they relatively minor sins because they were not mentioned in the Ten Commandments or by Jesus, and there are only 12 other mentions in the Bible? (In comparison, the sin of hatred is mentioned 21 times, lying and false testimony 30, greed, avarice and covetousness 40, theft 42, adultery 52, murder 57, self-righteousness 79, and idolatry 169 times.)

and

The Old Testament prescribed the death penalty for the crimes of murder, attacking or cursing a parent, kidnapping, failure to confine a dangerous animal resulting in death, witchcraft and sorcery, sex with an animal, doing work on the Sabbath, incest, adultery, homosexual acts, prostitution by a priest's daughter, blasphemy, false prophecy, perjury in capital cases and false claim of a woman's virginity at the time of marriage.

Attacking or cursing a parent.
Failure to confine a dangerous animal resulting in death.
Working on the Sabbath.
Adultery.
Blasphemy.
False prophecy.
Perjury.
False claim of being a virgin at marriage.

Those are all pretty much every day offences. I don't see any justice in singling homosexuals out for particular oppostion. If homosexuality is as much a sin as all the others, then surely religious organizations should at every turn, including in the courts, fight pornographers like Larry Flynt and Hugh Hefner (esp re: bestiality and incest)and as loudly and actively condemn the actions of people who use pornography.

I'm glad that we're not still seeing people executed (in our countries) for these activities; our societies, including many Christian folk, consider them pretty irrelevant deviations from an ancient cultural norm. It's rather inconsistent then to single out homosexuality for vilification.

Foxy,

Now you do sound like Julia (trust me) Gillard.

"As I've stated in the past - you are
entitled to your opinion (but not your
facts)."

I would like to see the facts presented by a university academic regards de-facto relationships, so de-facto relationships can be adequately compared to marriages.

I haven't seen facts about de-facto relationships presented by any university academic yet, which means to me they are being purposely hidden.

@ Runner

The Bible was written over a period of 1400 to 1800 years by more than 40 different authors, so what Im saying is that sodomy back then did not actually exclusively mean homosexual sex, so its wrong to assume that god destroyed the city of Sodom because of homosexual sex. Because this seems very unlikely as Genesis 19:5 said that all of the men (perhaps all of the people) of Sodom formed the mob at Lot's house and demanded to "know" the angels. The percentage of homosexuals in a typical group of male adults is generally around 5%, not 100%. Also, Lot had lived in the city for some years and would have know if all of the men were homosexuals; he would hardly have offered to sacrifice his daughters to the mob if the men were entirely homosexual. Finally, as noted above, if the men of Sodom were all homosexuals, there would be few if any children and widows in the city as are mentioned elsewhere in the Bible. So my point is that people who believe that homosexuals are the reason that God destroyed Sodom are totally wrong. Also I have to disagree with you where you mention in your previous post:

"btw your explanation of Leviticus 20:13 is more what many want to think rather than what is actually says"

>> I take people as they come.

As one should.

The question is not whether people should be handled with respect, but whether our good will should extend to pronouncements of prejudice and vilification. When does intolerance become intolerable?

For me, the bottom line is that because corrosive anti-gay attitudes are widespread in our society, sexual minorities suffer a wide range of negative health outcomes.

The worst is the higher risk of suicide among gay teenagers http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/reprint/88/1/57.pdf , though their marginalisation also places them at higher risk of homelessness, personal violence, drug-taking, family estrangement and mental illness http://www.lgbthealth.org.au/election2010

There is no niceness, let alone compassion, in telling young people that they are criminal, disordered, abnormal or just plain sinful. People who spread these notions make life unhealthy and dangerous for young same-sex-attracted people.

My same-sex relationship and your "de-facto arrangement [are] destructive to children and society" precisely because runner’s attitudes make them so. Should your de facto relationship ever produce a gay child, long before s/he has had the chance for a sexual encounter (and in spite of the best parenting you can provide) s/he will have been placed at greater risk of a range of negative outcomes by the filthy prejudices espoused by runner and many others around here.

woulfe: <"There is no niceness, let alone compassion, in telling young people that they are criminal, disordered, abnormal or just plain sinful. People who spread these notions make life unhealthy and dangerous for young same-sex-attracted people.">

I agree, and they are notions based on ancient social norms, which were superceded by Jesus and the New Testament, where priorities were stated very differently because people had the benefit of Christ's work and intervention.

I don't think it's even useful to pick through all the old laws and try to interpret them. Some of the greatest minds in academic theology have devoted their lives to it and yet there are few (if any) definitive answers on which they all agree.

These physical bodies are to me just transports for the soul; that's why I like the quote that in heaven there is no distinction made between male and female etc. I think higher order spirituality is expected of us - like caring for others esp. children; attending to our own spiritual self-improvement and (individual) relationship with God; not making judgments on others.

My personal belief is that a proportion of the population is born with attraction to others of the same sex, and that God meant it to be so. I suspect that the spiritual challenge isn't whether or not people decide to express their attraction openly and seek the same human intimacy that is a basic human need in order to thrive; but whether or not others can accept God's work just as it is, without being driven to impose, exclude, dominate and attempt to obliterate.

I think you put it well woulfe that the horrible notions that are maintained pronounce not only judgment but also punishment. I hope we soon see an end to this current (and historical) social cruelty.