Yes ,Brian,you are probably of the same generation as I am.The generation born to parents who came through the Great Depression and whose motto was,"Waste Not,Want Not".

I took that motto to heart but a lot of my contempories didn't and the lesson has certainly been lost on later generations.

Never mind,the Limits To Growth will teach the lesson anew - painfully.

Nooo.ooo...ooo it dont take strength to stop buying cheap goods.
Little or no money are much more effective.

socratease

"if we believe this to justify our purchase of absurdly cheap
manufactured items, then how much better are we than the Australian
who excuses himself for having sex with a 14 year-old girl in Bangkok
because she needs the money to live?"
If you can't see the difference and you're prepared to buy those $12 shirts,
it begs the question of what you would do with that 14yo in Bangkok.
I think your analogy is seriously flawed but then again I'm not a moral relativist.

I think if you asked the Chinese, would they rather go back to
starving, as they were 25 or so years ago, not many would
volunteer. In fact there is now a whole middle class generation
doing pretty well, not everyone works in el cheapo factories.

As things improve, even those places are coming under huge
pressure to up wages and working conditions. In other words,
things are getting better for the average Chinese and they
still manage to save something like 40% of their wages!

For us there are benefits too. Ask the poor in Australia,
if they would rather buy a 12$ shirt or a 60$ shirt, espeically
when it comes to kids clothes.

Today we have more choice then ever before. We can pay the
price and buy industrial drills and other power tools, if that
is what we need at work. Yet if some pensioner wants to do
a bit of woodwork now and then, he'll now be able to afford
power tools that he could only previously dream of and they will
still do the job. I don't think that is such a bad thing.

In the 60s and 70s they used to refer to "Japanese junk",
as Japan built to a price rather then a standard. Now the
Japanese are ahead in quality on much of what they produce.
China is and will change too, it just all takes time.

Thanks for a splendid article steeped in ethics, Brian Holden, I'm sure you speak for many people.
I too am guilty of participating in this frivolous lifestyle, and buying products that are cheaper to replace than repair. Though obsolescence (and fashion) is another factor driving our disposable mentality.
What does frustrate me is that people balk at condemning the real villain, indeed this villain is so omnipresent, omnipotent and inviolable as to be unseen, more like a deity, or the air we breath, a kind of Lucifer-inspired pantheism: I speak of course of capitalism and its fatal dynamics.
We don't see capitalism critically; we've been condition to see it (in as much as we see it at all) in a binary political relationship with failed communism, rather than on its own remorseless terms.
The dynamic of capitalism is reducible to the "profit motive", though the celebrated entrepreneur is as helpless as those from whom surplus-value is extracted.
The surplus value derived from the means of production has to be converted into capital, which is achieved via the sale of commodities, whose cost necessarily exceeds the derivative purchasing power of that productive community. Ergo capitalism cannot function in a closed system; in order to forestall overproduction and underconsumption, it must expand its markets ad infinitum, both intensively (greater efficiency, innovation, competition) and extensively (by creating new markets). Yet we live in a closed system and this juggernaut must inevitably run out of fuel---which is all humanity, and all the Earth's resources are under this dispensation, is: fuel. Before capitalism reaches this theoretical limit, however, the "side effects" of this dynamic, environmental devastation and general strife, are likely to bring the whole thing crashing down.
We long since passed the point where morality had any relevance. The children in factories in China etc, are merely the logical progress of this amoral divinity.

My dear old mum used to say that "poor people can't afford cheap things". It's an adage I've always applied, and I still reckon she was right.

Squeers is right of course.
The Chinese fared much better under communism.

Dear Proxy,
thanks for illustrating my point about binary thinking :-)

Well said Squeers.
It is Capitalism that is driving endless growth in population and consumption. The disposable ethos is vital to capitalism and its pursuit of nothing but profits. If products lasted a long time then no one would need to keep buying them and once everyone had one the factory would have to close or reduce(horror) in size.

The whole system of capitalism is riddled with inconsistencies and waste and is destroying humanities ability to think and stand on their own two feet. The inequality, environmental destruction, waste and exploitation inherent in the capitalist system will be its downfall. It just remains to be seen whether humanity is intelligent and rational enough to change before a catastrophic meltdown.

*It is Capitalism that is driving endless growth in population and consumption.*

Not so Mikk. Religion is driving endless growth in population.
Freemarket economics invented the pill and other family planning
methods. If it were up to the free market, abortion would be
freely available to those who want it. Religion entwined with
politics prevents these outcomes, not the free market.

Capitalism is not driving endless growth. I believe in the free
market, but that does not mean that I need to keep consuming more.
It just means that I believe that human innovation should not
be limited by the State, who does not know better.

Yes indeed some people always want more. Note the amount of people
buying lotto tickets each week. But that is not the fault of
capitalism, more the nature of some people, who seek happiness
in wanting ever more, even if its a flawed philosophy.

Don't blame capitalism for flawed human nature.

Religion is not driving endless growth in population [within Australia]and abortion is readily available for people who want it. Just mix with teenage girls and young people, Yabby, from backgrounds of religious indoctrination. They would be able to set you straight on this subject! Likewise adults of religious faith: the commandments or Bible interpretations they espouse are generally contrary to their actions; for various reasons.

For instance, Yabby, there would be as high a rate of abortion, as many sexual experiences, if not more, within families of a religious background, as there are within families who are either Athiests or non-religious. Many of the Catholic school girls in my day lived and slept in rebellion and contradiction.

The same could be said for the past 30 years. The average family numbers back in the 90s and the 20th Century consisted of a family of four or five including religious families. Most of the larger families at present am friends with are from European or Middle Eastern backgrounds with 6 dependants [by the way, none of these families are 'religious'].

P.S. I agree with some of your other comments regarding capitalism though Yabby

Yabby:
<Capitalism is not driving endless growth.>

Dear Yabby, capitalism is about endless growth, by definition!

<I believe in the free market, but that does not mean that I need to keep consuming more.>

It's not just about you; it's about the global scale of it. In any case your very lifestyle (and mine), without conspicuous consumption, is profligate in the scheme of things.

Unique, you are looking at population/religion locally, I am
looking at it globally. But then our population hardly matters.
If every Australian died tomorrow, in 90 days of global breeding,
we'd all be replaced, as global population keep increasing
by around 80 million a year.

If every person on the planet had the choices that Australian
men and women do, there would not be a problem of increasing
population. That is not the case. Hundreds of millions of women
still don't have access to family planning, abortion is still
illegal in large chunks of the world. Organisations like the
Catholic Church, still fight tooth and nail against condoms,
the pill, a knot in the line, you name it.

In Australia religion has little obvious effect on Govt, not so
in most of the rest of the world.

Squeers, sure its not just about me. Fact is that its about some
people always wanting more, no matter which system is in place.
So its about human nature as such, blaming capitalism is the cop out
here.

Dear Yabby,
We're actually close to agreement. Absolutely, it's about human nature, about "self-interest" and the "profit motive", these are the driving forces behind capitalism and why it's so successful. If you're interested, I've started a similar discussion here: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3765&page=0

Obviously Yabby most things revert to human nature, however my point to you remains the same regarding Australia [locally] as you term it, in relation to population growth, religion [locally and westernised countries] and following religious protocol.

It is irrelevant as to whether or not the catholic church or any other religions are anti-condoms or the use of contraceptives. Many kids and young adults sleep around using all types of contraceptives condoms and withdrawal methods who are from catholic anglican presbyterian methodist baptist and other religious backgrounds. My point in the previous post was to make you aware that most kids from religious backgrounds do use contraceptives widely and religious teachings in fact causes more rebellion for these kids to sleep around and use contraceptives.

Guess its called 'human nature' Yabby.

I've hear it said that the only difference between a wage slave and a slave on the cotton-fields is that wage slaves have to feed and clothe themselves. They can move to a different field but will always remain slaves to the system.

Likewise we are all trapped in the cycle of consumption, whether we like it or not.

Built-in obsolescence guarantees that modern goods are designed to have a finite life and will inevitably need to be replaced.

*It is irrelevant as to whether or not the catholic church or any other religions are anti-condoms or the use of contraceptives.*

Unique, it might be irrelevant here in Aus, I have never claimed
anything else. But it is not irrelevant in those parts of the
world where women have no access to contraception and other family
planning options.

If you lived in the third world, with no money, no place which
sells family planning products, no place which tells you how to use
them, no place which provides abortions, short of keeping your
legs closed forever, you too might land up with a tribe of unwanted
kids, far more then you have ever planned for or desired.

Next time may I suggest Yabby you state third world countries [regardless of whether or not Missionaries and Aid Workers are educating and encouraging contraception methods in certain parts of Africa: a friend I know who has lived over there for 15 years as an Aid worker] has stated there is a significant improvement in certain regions re; overpopulation.

The one child China policy was implemented to discourage overpopulation and is working, in addition to many other countries seeing the light despite their religions. This is a point you and I will have to beg to differ on Yabby. Enjoy your week.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1999/06/99/world_population/381340.stm

Perhaps you just arn't very well informed on this topic, Unique.

Here is just one of many URLs dealing with the subject. Google
Vatican and birth control, you'll be reading for as long as you
like, how religion globally interferes with family planning in the
third world. The result, another 80 million extra people a year
added to the human population.

Until we solve that one, all the ETSs in the world will be nothing
but a feelgood exercise for those who can afford it.