The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > East Timor's recalcitrant hero > Comments

East Timor's recalcitrant hero : Comments

By Peter Coates, published 21/6/2010

East Timor to our very near north has a growing association with China - a rising power with strategic aspirations in our region.

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. Page 2
  4. 3
  5. All
maracas1

Firstly I'd like to thank you for your input, which I always hope for.

Secondly. I wrote the article contrasting Gusmao's pre 1999 career with the main bilateral issues that are on his watch in 2010 - which are Woodside's LPG plant siting and the Chinese patrol boats.

You might be trying to steer the debate to Alkatiri, Pires and Reinado, but aren't they passé now?

Your claim that Fretilin was not communist is false.

Fretilin main fighting arm until the mid 1980s was its openly Maoist-Communist subset, Falantil. All this is admitted, to his credit, by Xanana Gusmao.

In 1975 Fretilin was a movement on the run. Some stayed in East Timor to fight, like Gusmao while others fled abroard. They escaped with their lives to places that would harbour them while most East Timorese did not have a choice of getting out.

Alkatiri chose communist Mozambique http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_Alkatiri after fleeing until 1998. Note Mozambique's coat of arms here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Mozambique.

Alkatiri's choice of domicile was dominated by Marxist-Leninist FRELIMO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRELIMO which established a Soviet aligned one party state. Its not coincidental that Fretilin has a sense of entitlement that it alone should rule East Timor.

Fretilin is probably frustrated that it was Soviet aligned but the Soviets let it down by supplying nothing from 1975 until 1991 when the Soviet Union collapsed.

It seems that former Maoist aligned elements (including Gusmao) have the jump on Fretilin yet again. They (the non-Fretilin government of East Timor) are dealing to their advantage with the Maoist Chinese in East Timor's national interest.

My problem is that all this is definitely not in Australia's national interests. Australia's main interests in East Timor's are of course:

- economic (oil/gas ownership and profits);

- strategic (keeping non-western countries out – especially China); and,

- humanitarian/maintaining law and order (because people like Alkatiri couldn't make their people safe).

But I think Ramos Horta and Gusmao (with some assistance from mana Kirsty) are better than past leaders.

Regards

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 12:27:29 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Pete i have no argument about the communist leanings of Fretilin, being a communist freedom fighter was after all the in thing during most of the 20th century. There is also the issue of who is prepared to offer support without patronising them. We truly do continue to suffer from the arrogant white man attitude in this country. I really don't think we get what racism is and how it affects others. After all we elected John Howard term after term and there is no question how insecure he was about any non white anglo nations. We forgive our sports stars for racist comments because they have so much to offer.
So i return to my earlier question, can you please supply me with some credible links that show me the impending danger of the emerging China. Do we actually think they will take over the asia/pacific like the Japanese tried to do in WW2 or will they simply go with the American model of disrupting and manipulating governments and markets to suit themselves. Let's not make an enemy out of paranoia.
Posted by nairbe, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 1:07:19 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi nairbe

maracas is the person with the "argument about the communist leanings of Fretilin". I neglected to say to him that the Maoist model can be useful for insurgents. If they are nationalists that may be fine but if they turn out to be tools of great powers (like China and Russia) then they are cheating their own poeple.

I agree that we could do even more for East Timor but I don't agree with you "white, arrogance" thesis. If East Timorese were white they would still receive the massive aid and liberation we gave them.

Who's talking "John Howard" or "sports stars"? We're talking about Chinese patrol boats in East Timor now.

Re "Do we actually think they will take over the asia/pacific like the Japanese tried to do in WW2"

I resent how you labour my article with your own simplistic straw men. I'm talking about a complex multi-faceted Chinese strategy toward East Timor which does include military aid (the patrol boats). Read the the Loro Horta links I provided - please.

Re: "can you please supply me with some credible links that show me the impending danger of the emerging China."

I'm not attempting to illuminate China's world strategy just China's relations with East Timor.

While some Russian comrades (GRU's Sixth Directorate - but don't tell anybody...) have access to recent Top Secret internal strategy papers of the Chinese Central Committee, concerning the Asia Pacific (which do answer your question precisely), I cannot and will not pass them to you. Sorry :)

In the meantime this may be useful https://dr.ntu.edu.sg/bitstream/handle/10220/4383/RSIS-WORKPAPER_103.pdf;jsessionid=E8D112130CB8F74E378936CE31BC1CDA?sequence=1

Regards

Pete
(of "Nuclear Weapons for Australia?" http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/ )
Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 3:15:19 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Pete,
Sorry for any mistake over maracas, not intended.
Thanks for the link, and i genuinely mean that. It is hard to find any good research on these issues.
The military buildup and modernisation of the Chinese military is fairly routine for an emerging economic power such as China particularly given the rational offered by the author. Of greater concern would be the reactive military buildup in the region by much more unstable and unpredictable governments. This is especially problematic when a sudden change of government could see these assets fall into hostile hands. It certainly gives me much to consider and reassess, thanks.
I recognise you offence to my inference about white Australian attitudes. These always create much animosity toward me. I feel John and sports stars have much to do with it. They are evidence of our community attitude and therefore perception of current events. We question little the massive arms spending and presence of the US globally over the last ten years and justify it by identifying the need due to terrorist threat. Should other countries such as China not see this as a potential threat to their security and trade interests and security both regionally and globally.
I know i have got off subject. The end is that we can have more effect and influence in Timor if we deal more openly and less patronisingly with their government. Yes we put a lot of time, money and effort into Timor but we also seem to want a lot out of it
Posted by nairbe, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 6:03:01 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Pete,
You have handled the truth quite carelessly in the picture you painted of Mari ALkatiri.Go back and read your own reference in Wikipedia and you will learn he did not flee East Timor whilst the Recalcitrant hero, Gusmao remained.

You will learn he was SENT out along with others to establish an external mission. These included Rogerio Lobato, Abilio Araujo, Rocque Rodriguez,Ramos Horta, Jose luis Guterres. I had the pleasure of hosting them as they came through Darwin, providing them with accommodation without which they could not obtain a Visa due to the lack of housing immediately after Cyclone Tracy.

I also provided telephone facilities, linking their VJY Darwin messages with appropriate people either in New York, Maputo or Lisbon.
It may not have occurred to you that apart from the fact Mari Alkatiri had a history of residence and study in Mozambique, it was a prior colony of Portugal where Portuguese was the lingua Franca and both ex colonies were in much the same boat, striving for Independence.

I reiterate; Fretilin were not Communist, although their movement for Independence was supported by the Communist Party of Australia.
They had no alternative supporters because Ramos Horta's meetings with the Australian Government had fallen on deaf ears following the Kerr coup of the Whitlam Government placing Malcolm Fraser as P.M. who instructed the Dili radio link with VJY Darwin to close on Xmas Day 1975 and did his best to stop unlicenced radio contact by siezing two Radio opoerations.

Remember,Gerald Ford and Henry Kissinger had given Soeharto the green light to invade on the eve of their departure asking that it be executed quickly. Australia was quick to grant de jure recognition in order to obtain a good deal on boundaries which have since been disputed by East Timor.
Posted by maracas1, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 1:42:58 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Part 2

I make no secret of my support for Fretilin. I witnessed the massive support they received from the Maubere majority populace whilst I was there on the occasion of the first Anniversary of the Founding of Fretilin on 20th May 1975.

On the other hand I continue to deplore the corruption that Gusmao has presided over and the unconstitutional actions of Horta.
You could do well to study the evidence given in the Pires trial instead of writing it off.

Of course you can expect East Timor to move closer to the Socialist world because they already know that's where their real friends are.
500 Cuban Doctors in East Timor and a thousand Timmorese studying Medicine in Havana.
Australia on the other hand has only displayed a grossly mercenary attitude to this fledgling democracy by grabbing resources which rightly belong to East Timor
Posted by maracas1, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 1:45:55 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. Page 2
  4. 3
  5. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy