Dear David.. see Proxies post.. do you understand ?

Celivia and David- again, I think we should wait out for the detractors to read the thread and the arguments for abortion- we have better things to do than to agonizingly guide the slow kids through the lesson that finished when the lunch break is on and the rest of the kids are outside.

Especially Celivia, considering that they couldn't answer a simple question of the "unknitted jumper"- or for that matter, an unfertilized egg or sperm, an adult etc, I wouldn't put the effort into trying to convey your points as thoroughly as you normally do.

They have more than enough to try to rebuke if they can.
What you're asking such people to do is think broadly on the full implications of the issue- when its clear that if they WERE capable of this, they would have cited something more specific already than a few lazy cliches.

The important point is we've padded out 24 pages so far of counter information, for anyone more sensible to see (and the lack of even a specific rebuke capturing the whole issue in sight).

Once again the abortion issue is split between reason and religion.

Those with religious convictions are not likely to be convinced by mere facts.

Those with reason, merely get frustrated replying to scripted emotional rubbish from the anti choice nut jobs.

VERY well said Shadow I cannot think of a better way to put it.

I second that, King Hazza.

I just wish that, in debates about abortion and euthanasia, people would agree to a definition and then use the correct terminologies.

I'm halfway through reading that new article "Defining Euthanasia" and think it looks interesting enough.

I will abort myself from this thread unless the anti-choicers try to have a more honest debate.

There have been some great points made here, and I'm certainly going to keep the link to this discussion to refer to when I need it.

If I have to say one positive thing about Rhys' view before I leave this thread is that at least he is, unlike the usual religious anti-choice brigade, backing better sex education at schools and having a wide range of contraception available.

Thank you, all!

Reason versus religion is a false dichotomy.
I'm not religious and didn't realise you needed to be to value life.
The real problem is that when people anchor themselves to a concept,
in this case "choice",
no matter how nebulous that concept is,
they will tie themselves up in irrational knots to justify their position.
They lose the capacity to reason, as they seek to shore up their stance.
This enables them to justify partial birth abortion and even infanticide.
If you doubt this, you only have to look at President Obama's
multiple blocks on the Born Alive Infant Protection Act
when he was an Illinois Senator.
Putting a living survivor of abortion in the waste disposal unit to die becomes the "right thing to do" to supporters of "choice" because not to do so would violate that higher principle.
Tell us again, what is reasonable?