Severin I don't want to spread this across yet more thread's (CJ has already asked about the relevance to the thread where I made the comments I assume that you are referring to) - a fair point. I responded to your earlier comment on this thread thinking that I was on the original.

I don't consider your claim that I "only object when it is by posters who hold a difference of opinion to you" is fair but if that's you opinion after seeing my posts over such a long period then there is nothing much I can do to change it.

R0bert

CJ

“I've already demonstrated that there is nothing "feminist" about Coc de Mer's marketing, nor indeed their customer base.”

No, you’ve merely chosen to disagree with my claim that this business’ key customer base is a group of women who think they are being feminist by conducting their sex lives in a particular way.

“the values you display here are entirely consistent with good old prudishness that existed well before second-wave feminism.”

I don’t want to see a return to 1950s morality any more than you do. Just because I aren’t from one extreme, doesn’t mean that I am from the other.

“In my apparently somewhat wider experience than yours of the sexual attitudes of women who espouse feminist ideals, only a very few indeed raise objections to women asserting themselves sexually.”

True, but quite a few will criticise women who choose not to sleep around. They mouth hollow platitudes about freedom of choice yet attempt to peer pressure these women into conducting their sex life in the approved way. Almost all are critical of men who sleep around. Remember the outpouring of hatred that has followed recent footballer scandals.

Severin

I have no problem with you just for making criticisms of others. I simply wish to point out that most people are keenly aware of pressure to behave in certain ways yet fail to notice others. For example, those of us who criticise the promiscuous are told to mind our own business yet others don’t seem to notice the pressure that they place on women to have a confident raunchy sexuality that doesn’t suit all women. You seem to notice criticism of women about their sex life yet fail to notice similar pressure on men. There is nothing wrong with this, sleazy blokes put their wants before women’s feelings.

IMHO one of life’s trickiest moral dilemmas is knowing when to pull others into line and when to leave them be. This is made more difficult when much of this pressure goes un-noticed. Don’t feel guilty for using pressure to encourage others to think of others. Used carefully, your outspoken nature can make this world a better place. Just be prepared for a robust discussion about exactly what sort of world we would like to live in.

Robert

It isn't just you who finds Benq nasty.

benk: << ...you’ve merely chosen to disagree with my claim that this business’ key customer base is a group of women who think they are being feminist by conducting their sex lives in a particular way. >>

Your haven't substantiated your claim at all. There is no evidence, either in the article or in your comments, that "this business’ key customer base is a group of women who think they are being feminist by conducting their sex lives in a particular way".

You may think that they are, but you have no basis upon which to make the claim. Neither does Abigail Bray.

<< Remember the outpouring of hatred that has followed recent footballer scandals. >>

I don't recall any "outpouring of hatred" about footballers merely "sleeping around". What I do recall is widespread condemnation of a misogynist culture in rugby league under which some players were found to have regularly had unconsensual group sex with women.

That is quite a different matter to "sleeping around", don't you think?

R0bert

Agree to disagree. No problems, I am not here to proselytise nor to score points, simply to present my POV as honestly as I am able. Therefore, I call it like I see it. Some here take it personally.

I will always continue to consider your contributions - whether or not I agree.

Benk

I neither care whether men or women sleep around or not - nor do I care whether MTR, Bray have no sex life at all. I do care when they present articles as being based on feminism when in fact their agenda is a traditional conservative one.

I believe there is a balance between being uptight conservatism and out of control lascivious behaviour. I do not wish to impose either on anyone. Bray's article starts from a false premise, that Sex Shops run by women are a sell-out on feminism. There are as many opinions of what is feminist as there are women. I can only speak for myself when I say that Bray is denying her sisters their freedom to run a business of their choosing - whether or not I agree with the type of merchandise is entirely moot. I would no more admonish Roddicks than I would any other sex shop. Many men run Adult Shops - why doesn't Bray take issue with them?

"There is no evidence, either in the article or in your comments, that "this business’ key customer base is a group of women who think they are being feminist by conducting their sex lives in a particular way".

What sort of evidence would satisfy you? Do you expect me ask the company for a copy of their market research? My life experience tells me that many women feel that conducting their sex life in a particular way makes them feminist.

<I don't recall any "outpouring of hatred" about footballers merely "sleeping around".>

After the Christchurch incident started to look consentual, many people were admonished for pretending that consent made it all ok. The consentual aspect of Shane Warne and Tiger Woods' infidelity didn't shield them from criticism. You will never convince me that our society is accepting of men who use women.


Severin

"I neither care whether men or women sleep around or not"

Through most of the 1990s, men were encouraged to be sensitive new age guys. We were supposed to be caring, sharing and not into using women. Surely some social pressure is ok, as long as we don't pretend that we never tell others what to do.

"There are as many opinions of what is feminist as there are women."

Can't men have an opinion? What about conservative Christians?

"Many men run Adult Shops - why doesn't Bray take issue with them?"

Neither these men nor their customers are pretending that they are acting on principle.