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The Forum > Article Comments > It’s time the green message was aimed squarely at the heart > Comments

It’s time the green message was aimed squarely at the heart : Comments

By Brian Holden, published 19/5/2010

The greenies need to get their message into young minds.

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Dear Brian, there are so many “truths” in your article and they do need to be examined in more detail.

Like many on OLO, I am also concerned that we humans are damaging our environment and even causing regional climate change.

You suggest greenies suffer from communication failure as a result of constant exaggeration. You, of course are not guilty of this I presume? Except by association as a greenie for 40 years?

The problem is that what you might see as mere exaggeration; others might see as lies.

You suggest that greenies “need to get their message into young minds” To which I would reply, you need to do this because adult minds are no longer swallowing your lies? I seem to remember a similar approach with the Hitler Youth.

Further, I have grand children that have been given the terrors by the greenies already. If you can’t hack it with adults, leave the kids to enjoy their innocence and stop scaring them with the ecological “bogy man”. I would genuinely like to take a baseball bat to those who infect the minds of innocent children with ideological “education”. Don’t you think Al Gore has done enough damage?

Child Alienation is a domestic violence crime in our Family Court system and whilst taking you to court for your proposals might be more attractive, our current laws leave us only with forums such as this to rebuke you for your malevolence.

Unfortunately for the “great greenie causes”, the international protest industry is, at every level, miserably inept, emotionally dysfunctional, ill informed, politically manipulated and increasingly ineffective, except for the immense damage it inflicts upon perfectly valid public environmental concerns.

Please leave my children and grand children in the capable hands of their parents.

Butt out.
Posted by spindoc, Wednesday, 19 May 2010 9:46:24 AM
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Dear Brian,

Thanks for you clear, simple voice. Yes, I've been focussing more and more on the relentless degradation all around us. It's not just disappearing exotic species. It's disappearing space in town, more alienating big-box buildings all the time, ever more traffic, disappearing family farms, less personal service, on and on, all the things we can no longer afford ... now that we're rich.

Your post makes a good pair with this one, about the four possible futures we face:
http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010051914/climate-change-four-futures
Posted by Geoff Davies, Wednesday, 19 May 2010 10:07:04 AM
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Yes, lovely article Brian. I agree that we greenies are too often characterised by the hyperbolic doom and gloom scenarios deployed by some of the more radical activists. Fostering among young people an appreciation of the environment that we as a species are busily destroying is critical - mind you, I think that David Attenborough is just as good as Disney at this, and much more informative.

Classic rant from spindoc - he complains about "exaggeration" by greenies, then goes on to wax hyperbolically about "baseball bats" and "Child Alienation". Who's "exaggerating" here?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 19 May 2010 10:28:37 AM
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So, Brian wants to brainwash children, on the basis of sentimental pap from the 1930s and 1940s. Goebbels had a similar idea around that time. Of course, his mate Adolf was a greenie, so there's another connection.

Failing that, no doubt greenies would love to set up cadres to go around beating up people with whom they disagree. They could call them the Green Guard.

Fat Al is "charismatic"? Parasitic, more accurately.

Brian, you say you have observed that "the degradation of the natural environment is relentless". Nice generalisation. Can you give us a few facts to support that, given that we have cleaner air, cleaner water, longer life expectancy, etc., etc., and that in the good old pre-degradation days, average life expectancy for an adult male in the US and Australia was about 30 years?
Posted by KenH, Wednesday, 19 May 2010 11:38:00 AM
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Do kids really want to see endless Bambi-style films and will it change them from being money-grubbing suburbanites (like their parents) into modern-day druids? Doubt it. Social engineering is always difficult, in fact its impossible. Communing with nature will always be an elitist preoccupation, the rest of us will watch TV. In fact, while I think of it, films tend to echo popular political conceptions rather than shape them. I must catch up with the film Robin Hood but as I understand it, like Gladiator, it raves on about freedom when all the peasants are doing is swapping one set of lords for another, just as greedy..
Posted by Curmudgeon, Wednesday, 19 May 2010 12:26:44 PM
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Thanks, Brian and Geoff. 'Climate Change - Four Futures" by Sara Robinson - thanks for the reference, Geoff -
http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010051914/climate-change-four-futures
is a brilliant article that I suggest be repeated on On Line Opinion.

Tony Kevin
Posted by tonykevin 1, Wednesday, 19 May 2010 12:32:08 PM
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Does anyone know how 'carbon emisson units' will be calculated for a business apart from linking it to their electricity consumption ?
Posted by no_THIS_ismeBD, Wednesday, 19 May 2010 1:13:25 PM
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Goodness me, stating the facts is not having the desired effect so you want to ramp up the hyperbole instead?

"Humanising" other organisms, ecosystems or the planet leads to a very warped view of nature. Ultimately, if a person understands all animals as being cute little fluffy furred and feathered humans with the same gamut of emotional and intellectual experience, how then should they interpret the functioning of natural ecosystems founded upon predator-prey relationships?

No, it's not very nice for the owl that finds its home and offspring destroyed, but such is life for virtually every organism except for a minority of human beings. Such experiences are absolutely fundamental to ecosystems. Tell me, this poor, "anguish"-ridden owl with a mouthful of food... where did it get that food from? Was that dead mouse in its mouth not a member of a mouse family somewhere now also filled with anguish? In the same ecosystem will exist thousands of other predator-prey relationships, all of which have their winners and losers. That is nature's way.

This is why true environmentalists are right to focus upon the integrity of ecosystems and species, and not of individual organisms. And this is why animal rights advocates, ultimately, are the enemies of natural ecosystems and any animal that wishes to act out its natural role in an ecosystem--- including humans.

... which brings me back to hunters, who in my view comprise the majority of the now very small proportion of humans who play a full participatory role in ecosystems. As compared to spectators, participants naturally have the opportunity to attain a much broader and deeper understanding, and possibly more importantly they become stakeholders in those ecosystems.

"Take nothing but photographs", ultimately, is the opposite of what you need to be pushing if you want to foster a generation of people with an understanding of and a sense of stakeholdership in natural ecosystems. The latter is what is needed if you want to motivate truly protective behaviours--- not just pretty things to look at and a misleading guilt trip.
Posted by Russell Edwards, Wednesday, 19 May 2010 2:20:09 PM
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Fascinating proposition, Mr Holden.

But forgive me for pointing out that it is one that could only have been dreamt up by someone very much out of touch with today's "yoof".

Today's kids are all-but impervious to propaganda. Especially propaganda that comes from people whom, they believe, are primarily responsible for the immense stuff-ups they see all around them.

They see Al Gore, for example, mainly as the guy on South Park who emotes endlessly about ManBearPig, and tells everyone who will listen, that he is "serial".

From my personal observation, their cynicism of anything promoted by anyone over the age of twenty exceeds that of the the 'sixties - and those were the the times of Danny Cohn-Bendit, Alan Ginsberg, Jean-Luc Godard, May '68 and all that.

I also think Mr Holden has also forgotten that there were far fewer movies back then. There was just the one cinema in town, and the film changed every week, so the visit became memorable in a way that fitting "Robin Hood" in between "Avatar" and "Sex in the City 2" will never be.

And hey, it moves very quickly. YouTube is also useless to get generalized "messages" across. Great fun if you've filmed your mates, walking on water. But who is going to share greenie material? It will go the way of all video evangelists, whether they are spruiking Hillsong tunes or 9/11 conspiracy theory.

*Click*

He is absolutely right, though, in that awareness needs to infuse an entire generation, and all those that follow.

It's simply that he is offering a set of tools that is as effective in getting the message across as a slide-rule and a roneo machine.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 19 May 2010 2:39:55 PM
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Long on emotion, short on facts. After some initial successes, it's clear that the Green movement is slowly sailing over the horizon to found its own private nation where somebody still believes in them -- Tasmania, perhaps? (Ava Gardner said that Melbourne was the ideal place to film a movie about the end of the world, but then she hadn't seen Hobart). The national flag will be a deer -- one of those nasty feral creatures destroying our national parks -- and every year all the inhabitants will move 50k south to escape global warming and 10m inland to escape rising sea levels. By the end of the century everyone will be clustered on top of the tallest mountain, praying for the Blessed Saint Gore to carry them off to eternal bliss in Disneyland.

Meanwhile the rest of us can get on with the business of keeping people clothed, fed and productive.
Posted by Jon J, Wednesday, 19 May 2010 2:45:01 PM
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Just a quick question for Spindoc - how long were you with the Hitler Youth?
Posted by Loxton, Wednesday, 19 May 2010 4:40:11 PM
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The Greens have clearly demonstrated that inward corruption leads to outward self righteousness. This was clearly demonstrated by the gw lies. Brian forgets that kids act like their parents. I think 'environmentalist' are often among the most indulgent. Many will not even keep their marriage vows and then they want to preach their own brand of 'righteousness' to others. Leave our kids to be kids.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 19 May 2010 5:45:06 PM
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Just a quick question for Loxton - how does your insult to spindoc contribute to the discussion?

You , who, normally gets quite vocal when someone insults you, have a very short memory. So we can now ignore your usual bleating, since you return in kind with a really low insult.

On the article, just planning to focus your "message" on kids is poisonous, if it was something else being pushed, there would be outrage - because it's "green", does that mean it's ok does it.

What you might think is good, is not necessarily what I or others think is good - I might think for instance, that people who want to fiddle with children's minds or thinking processes should be locked up.

Being green does not mean you are right or whatever you do is good.

The greens are synonymous with wild exaggeration and BS generally for a good reason, for instance the squealing about 'disaster" on the barrier reef recently and how the reef was "doomed!" because a bulk carrier ran into it.

How is the reef doing O'BS artists? Should we tell the children that was a disaster, or that the usual suspects were BSing as they always do.

The world and mother nature is way more resilient than you want it to be, that's the pity - it's so much more fun running around telling everyone not to do this or that, isn't it?
Posted by rpg, Wednesday, 19 May 2010 11:12:57 PM
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Another clasic case of do as I say not as I do. You object to brainwashing of children with the Judao christian message of love which corrects the problem of greed and builds character and morals but wish to do the same with your extreme right left grean red socialist message and I suppose you justify it by kidding your self that you are saving the planet by enslaving the people with fear. As for me I would rather have Faith in freedom in Love than be controled by fear. I do not believe in colective fear in religion either. I believe in Jesus and the finished work of the cross and the resurection which is an afront to the world and the unrepentant sinner. Narrow is the way that leads to life and few find that way. With out a heart transformation it is only religion no matter what the message. You must be born again or you only have crowd mentality.
Posted by Richie 10, Thursday, 20 May 2010 2:23:17 AM
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KenH – I don’t believe Brian was referring to humans when he alluded to the ‘degradation of the natural environment,’ so you see it’s not all about ‘me, I and myself.’ It’s all to do with the human impact on the environment. However I do believe you are correct when you claim that humans are living longer – a consequence of medical science even if many are shuffling around with plastic hips, knees, heart stents, pacemakers and stuff like that.

The down side is that the prevalence of diabetes and its co-morbidities in Australia is very high by world standards for a Western nation. In fact, the number of people with diabetes in Australia has trebled since 1981 and so it's two steps forward, three back if you've not noticed.

The bulk of homo-sapiens mistakenly believe that human dominion over the earth’s biosphere means domination and as a consequence, the native creatures in Australia are being slaughtered each year by the millions but as they say, free lunches don't come cheaply.

Then there's our esteemed leaders who set a ‘fine’ example on how to dominate the biosphere – gaol birds (Burke and O’connor), the sordid WA Inc mob, Colin Barnett and bashers like Iron Bar Tuckey convicted in 1967 for beating an Aboriginal man with an iron bar, while the man was being held down.

Consequently, I’m a greenie and proud of it but the children in my families are quite accustomed to death among the various species they have cared for or encountered by accident and the solemn burial rituals performed for the deceased have been varied and numerous.

I am also of the belief that children benefit from fantasy where my children at a young age, spent hours down the backyard, hovering over an abandoned rabbit’s warren in the sincere hope they would spot the pixie with the long red hat that I had encountered while they were at kindergarten. My son was extremely excited when he ‘saw’ the pixie emerging from its hidey hole early one morning and now delights in relating the event at numerous gatherings.
Posted by Protagoras, Thursday, 20 May 2010 2:25:56 AM
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“I believe in Jesus and the finished work of the cross and the resurection which is an afront to the world and the unrepentant sinner.”

A narrative dedicated to Richie 10:

“As for the children of men, it is God’s way of testing them and of showing that they are in themselves like beasts. For the lot of man and of beast is one lot; the one dies as well as the other. Both have the same life-breath, and man has no advantage over the beast; for all is vanity.

“Both go to the same place; both were made from dust, and to the dust they both return. Who knows if the life-breath of man goes upwards and the life-breath of the beast goes earthwards?” Ecclesiastes 3:18

“You must be born again or you only have crowd mentality.” Indeed Richie 10 - I'm in total agreement
Posted by Protagoras, Thursday, 20 May 2010 2:52:56 AM
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Spindoc

you said:

"no longer swallowing your lies?"

Clearly you are a racist fascist right wing loony :)

How dare anyone suggest that the Greenies and Greens are annnnything other than,
a)above reproach..
b)have no other agenda than simply to 'save the planet from impending doom, and
c)are characterized by genuineness and sincerity of a level seldom seen in world politics for the past few centuries.

shame on you spindoc-shame... I'm hereby sending you to a re-education camp for a week or so. That'll sort your misguided mind out!

http://www.carriefairfield.com/community/index.php?showtopic=27804&mode=linear

There is no room for the politically or environmentally incorrect in this place grrrr.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 20 May 2010 6:25:15 AM
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This is from one of the links quoted in Tony Kevins contribution...
(Four futures)

//The end of the world as we know it. This is the Jared Diamond/James Howard Kunstler/Limits to Growth scenario, where civilization's immensely complex and brittle systems break down,//

Immensly complex ? sheesh.. just try reading the Greens "A Bill for a Safe Climate"

and if you can do that .. all 327 pages of it... and not be in serious need of extended therapy...then you are superman.

Greens want to put a price on carbon of $20/ton.

Ok.. but I can't quite see how they can apply this to the many and varied industries which are all unique in the way they produce carbon emissions.

Perhaps some green here can enlighten me on this ?

(wait..I have it! the new 'green' JOBS will be as "consultants" to industry..yayyyy)

The easiest way I suppose would be to just look at how much electricity they use..and compute it from that ?

I'd also like to know what 'mechanism' the Greens propose (sorry.. 327 pages is toooo much for my small mind) in order to

a) Collect the green tax?
b) Distribute it? (and to where and how ?)

I have a simple suggestion.

Let's just find a price for carbon... ok.. we have that $20/ton
and collect that tax and then use it to subsidize residential Solar power.. VOILA problem solved :)

I did try this with one carbon trading company and they replied:

Sorry this is not a service that we provide. I previously worked at Origin Energy and would recommend their solar services. You will find details on their website.
Regards

xxxxx xxxxx
General Manager
xxxxx (companyname)
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 20 May 2010 6:47:32 AM
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Oh dear, Boazy's back. There goes the neighbourhood.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 20 May 2010 7:17:59 AM
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Which insult was that, rpg?

>>Just a quick question for Loxton - how does your insult to spindoc contribute to the discussion?<<

Loxton's question was:

>>Just a quick question for Spindoc - how long were you with the Hitler Youth?<<

I thought that an entirely fair question, given that spindoc had already confessed, in his own words...

>>I seem to remember a similar approach with the Hitler Youth.<<

He probably joined up by accident, though. Like Ratzinger.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 20 May 2010 8:22:45 AM
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Brian Holden, are you following these comments?

It would be interesting to have a genuine discussion about your article instead of just seeing the comments page hijacked for continuing the shallow bickering of the OLO peanut gallery, as usual.
Posted by Russell Edwards, Thursday, 20 May 2010 9:18:21 AM
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Brian, your supporters on this thread have complimented you, “a lovely article”, “clear and simple”. Sadly not one of them was prepared to comment on the main theme and title of your thread, which is the proposition that the greenies message should focus on young minds.

Instead, they came out like a pack of snarling hounds to attack those who dared question your proposal rather than to support or justify it. They won’t go near it because they are too busy savaging their pet distractions. So whilst they are off somewhere in the doggy Park, salivating and shredding the “raw nerve” baits offered to them, we can discuss the basis for your proposal in a little more detail.

Why would you wish to impart you message to young people?

Because they are vulnerable, you can bypass parental influence, they will become tomorrows eco-warriors, you have failed to get the required traction with adult minds, you can’t win today so you are preparing tomorrows battle, your ideology is unsustainable, you are feeling increasingly isolated, public support is in decline and you are incapable of accepting this reality.

So the plan is to use the “Jesuit” approach, “give me a child until the age of ten and I will give you a Catholic for life”

Excellent, so now you can deal with intellects of a lower order than yours, you won’t have to face any questioning and you no longer need to use facts or substantiate anything. You can bury your message in children’s stories and whip them up into frenzy at some future date to promote your cause through the ballot box.

I’ve got news for you, this is not new. All totalitarian aspirants use the same model.

Whoops, have to go, your doggies have finished with their distractions and can smell the essence of this post. They are going for the bait again
Posted by spindoc, Thursday, 20 May 2010 9:38:53 AM
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Nice post Spindoc.

May I add that things have already got right out of hand with the eco-morphing of young minds by Blinky Bill cartoons, no-tree no-me koalas, Lefty eco-idealists at the local primary school serving off-curriculum enviro-twaddle to vulnerable minds.

But it's been around a while, with the current crop of older enviro-worriers still read themselves as reincarnations of Carson and Ehrlich, wilfully or ignorantly distorting the public sphere with their idealogical atavism, praying to wind back the clock to whatever stage was ideal at the time their teachers got to them.

A better course is to engage the kids as participant in nature, not just observer thereof - this will help them understand pain, cruelty, destruction and regeneration and to come to terms with the inevitable environmental footprint that results from their existence.

This will leave them with the practical skills and emotional maturity to make the calls later in life for themselves, rather than responding to the clarion of this or next week's eco-mullah.
Posted by hugoagogo, Thursday, 20 May 2010 11:22:27 AM
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“You can bury your message in children’s stories and whip them up into frenzy at some future date to promote your cause through the ballot box.”

What a sad man is Spindoc et al who see a totalitarian plot in children’s stories whose authors promote respect for the bush and its inhabitants.

Only yesterday, I informed my grandies of the horse shot twice with a crossbow (last week in the UK) by callous vandals but who survived after four fellow mares spent three hours taking turns to lick the wound clean.

The four other horses saved their companion’s life by nuzzling her for comfort and keeping the wound free from bacteria.

But Spindoc et al no doubt sees the totalitarian indoctrination of an entire generation of Australians who were fortunate enough to own May Gibb’s Snugglepot and Cuddlepie – a magnificently illustrated book that has been handed down to three generations of my family – including those who went on to become Liberal politicians – dear me! How on earth did I get it so wrong – spawning conservatives? Eeekkkkk! My “idealogical atavism” greenie plot has been an abject failure!

The anthropomorphic May Gibbs, the author of Gumnut Babies, lived a rewarding life until she turned 92, going to ‘God’ in 1969. She did not will her estate to the Bambis, who’ve escaped man's bullet, the diabolical traps or heinous forestry and agricultural poisons, but to the Northcott Disability Services, the Spastic Centre of NSW and the UN's International Children’s Emergency Fund.

The ‘bad Banskia men’ who bear a resemblance to Spindoc et al politicise the endeavours of those who teach children the value of conservation, respect and protection for non-humans. The far right-wing "Banksia men" are spawning sadists and remain intent on squandering our inheritance – the bush, once a guaranteed source of nourishment and survival for our native species.

Now massive tracts of bush - tens of thousands of kilometres of our native and state forests (and massive subsidies) are being given over to the mining industry while our primitive eco-vandals and their children - the mini-capitalists, rejoice!
Posted by Protagoras, Thursday, 20 May 2010 1:41:22 PM
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SPINDOC.....

you said:

Instead, they came out like a pack of snarling hounds to attack those who dared question your proposal rather than to support or justify it.

colorful :) makes for interesting reading.

WHY AIM AT YOUNG PEOPLE ?

I think I can tell you.

Try this: Ask every young person behind the counter or at the checkout of a supermarket or in a hairdressing salon

"what is communism"..

Seriously.. try it.. and you will quickly understand why the Greens want to aim for the young.

The responses you will get are "errr.. haven't got a clue" in many variations.
Do they know who Al Gore is ? :) yep.. sure do.

You could try your one question quizz also as "Do you know what Socialism is" ?

Pretty much the same blank look.

Try THIS ONE.. "Do you know who Mao Tse Tung was" ?

or.. "Stalin"

or... "Pol Pot"

as "The man from Ironbark" described.. "Their eyes were dull, their heads were flat..they had no brains at all"..but these kids to have brains.. it's just that there is nothing other than MTV in them :)

Prime targets for Greens I'd say. Just use words like "Fairness..Inclusion... equality..Social Justice" and they are in the palm of the Green hand.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 20 May 2010 3:24:27 PM
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I think it's fair to say that the green message is all ready aimed squarely at the heart, just like a dagger, & will do us about as much good as that implement would do us.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 20 May 2010 3:29:09 PM
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"what is communism"..

"Seriously.. try it.. and you will quickly understand why the Greens want to aim for the young.

"The responses you will get are "errr.. haven't got a clue" in many variations. Do they know who Al Gore is ? :) yep.. sure do."

If ALGOREisRICH is familiar with the name, Al Gore, without influence from the Greens, why wouldn't our working age youth be equally familiar?

ALGOREisRICH insults today's savvy young people!

In fact ALGOREisRICH, without influence from the Greens, is so bewitched with Al Gore, he's even commandeered his name!

Oh and the cringe factor here is that ALGOREisRICH has assumed the name of a Democrat and not a Republican - cringe! Well at least Gore's not a Green - whew!
Posted by Protagoras, Thursday, 20 May 2010 7:53:31 PM
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Boazy sockpuppet: << Ask every young person behind the counter or at the checkout of a supermarket or in a hairdressing salon

"what is communism".. >>

You'd be the weirdo who gets escorted from the premises by security, wouldn't you?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 20 May 2010 7:58:37 PM
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Blah.... I'll leave you guy to your soggy bikky...
Posted by Russell Edwards, Thursday, 20 May 2010 10:26:38 PM
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