Oli!The message is not lost.

If humans can think, whats the problem? I will sit here and wait for you. I can word all the mind can think, but at what consequence? I time, one chance...........Thats a fair call.

TT

Oliver! Let the world go too sh@t and lets see what happens.

TTm

Hi Oliver,

>>the Church should not be allowed to investigate crimes "before" civil authorities are involved<<
Does that mean that you should not be allowed to try to find out the truth asap if your, wife, brother etc. was investigated for - or even just accused of - say, murder? I think the Church (or anybody) is not allowed to investigate anything in such a way as to obstruct official criminal investigations. If they do, that is unlawful - not the investigation but the obstruction.

>>there could be secular observers when the cardinals meet to discuss matters<<
I wonder which company could function if outside representatives, perhaps from the competition, would have to be present at the meetings of their board of managers.

There could be many reasons why a History Department of one university is less responsive than that of another when asked by a member of the outside public a question that might either be too complex to answer simply, or is sufficiently general (Matteo Ricci in China?) to have many books and articles written about. Although I agree, they should have realised that if the question was genuine you could get the answer from “the competition” (as I suppose you did), hence either answer it themselves or explain politely why they cannot. Well, here I have at least more experience - albeit not with the History but Mathematics Department - than with legal proprieties or improprieties we have been discussing.

Thanks and cheers again.

George, I would recommend that you take some time to review your posts on this thread.

Then ask yourself whether you they represent a form - well-argued, it must be admitted - of special pleading for your religion?

Because it most certainly looks that way to me.

Hi George,

A Church or a Bank is not a family. If I protected my wife or brother (I have both) from the consequences of a murder, my action would arise from caring for a love one, but it would be illegal. “ASAP” would mean hours. There is a high chance I would suggest they turn themselves in, perhaps, knowing they are likely to be caught given modern forensics, morality aside. I would respond differently to assisted euthanasia and a heinous assault murder. Back to work situations (Churches and Banks), I feel sometimes whistleblowers are necessary: e.g., Big Tobacco.

Agree. No Bank would allow an outside observer into a Board Room and in some instances it could be illegal (collusion/trading). In fact, where I once worked only “senior” managers and head office managers responsible for the implementation of strategies were allowed to see MInutes. No suburban branch see the Bank’s projected share prices and acquisition targets. On the other hand, Government (RBA and ATO) did attend some meetings. Legal council too. And occasionally peak bodies like the Farmers Federation:

A panel looking at the Sexual Abuse in the Church might comprise, say, three senior Catholic clergy and three junior Catholic clergy, two lawyers (one criminal, one international), two members of the Public and Protestant minister, perhaps even a Rabbi. Look at a University Council. It usually has a mix of senior academic appoinmentts, government appointments and student representatives. As I mentioned, a civilian relative of mine once sat on several police committees, to externalise/open processes.

[Aside: Because sometimes she travelled in a police car (travelling at normal speed) she has a strong memory of how the cars on the motorway would just move aside and make a hole in the traffic.]

I do not see the current debate in terms of theism Vs. enemies. It is more like a police corruption scandal and cover-up. Only there is a closed red line rather than a closed blue line. I suspect typical atheists and skeptics would hold a Church has a right to exist. Removing the wayward clergy is another matter.

Regards.