Dear David Singer,
In a previous article you described with elation the prospect of the diaspora (presumably including yourself) populating the West Bank. Is this why your country is engaged activities of the following kind:

http://palsolidarity.org/2007/12/2860
QUOTE
Stealing From Children: Azzoun Children’s Park Further Threatened by Impending Demolition
Posted on: December 8, 2007 | ShareThis
Only a few months from now the entire children’s park on the outskirts of Azzoun will be in ruins, demolished by the Israeli Occupation Force (IOF). The reason given is the lack of building permit from the Israeli authorities, even though the park is located on Palestinian land.

It was in early 2006, when the IOF first razed the children’s park, demolishing it within an hour. The park, just off the road between Azzoun and Jayous, attracted many children both from Azzoun but also from the many surrounding villages, being the only of its kind in the region. The cost of US $200,000 was financed mainly by USAID through the YMCA, with some money coming from the village of Azzoun. The justification given by the IOF for the demolition was that the park lacked a building permit for that specific ground, an area which falls within Area C, thus under Israeli civil and military control. Building permits for Area C are notoriously unattainable, applicants are denied by the Israeli-run Civil Administration, even when building on private land. The IOF had, prior to the demolition, several times given the order to stop the building but despite that, the village decided to continue, strengthened by the knowledge that the building was taking place on Palestinian land.

On the morning of February 22nd, 2006, bulldozers accompanied by Israeli soldiers arrived and demolished half of the park – which consisted of two swimming pools and changing rooms. The park had been near completion, after 18 months of building work.....

UNQUOTE

cont...

cont...

Almost one year later, that part of the park is still in ruins. The other half of the park, consisting of a large playground and an amphitheater, for the time remains untouched, but looks to meet the same fate soon enough. Approximately one year ago, the Azzoun municipality received a notice informing them that the remaining area of the park was to be demolished. The pretext is the same – without a building permit they are illegal structures. Upon applying for a building permit, the Azzoun municipality was told that they could build on land on the other side of the hill, an expensive and inconvenient proposition. The park area in question is currently in a location accessible to many.

The question now remains whether the planned demolition of the second area of the park can be stopped. An Israeli lawyer is working together with the Azzoun municipality on the case, and has succeeded in getting the demolition postponed until March 15th, 2008. She is now planning to take the case to the Supreme Court, in the hopes of overturning the IOF imposition of an illogical and inaccessible building permit, a barrier which in this case is serving as a barrier to children’s recreation. Particularly in a region suffering from Israeli military invasions, road closures, town curfews, and the losses that come with Israel’s Apartheid Wall, a children’s park was a fragment of hope in very dire circumstances.

UNQUOTE

Of course this is but one of 1000s of examples, given that over 18000 homes of Palestinians have been demolished since 1968: http://www.icahd.org/eng/

#grateful

Only 5% of the Arab population of the West Bank reside in Area C which is under the security and administrative control of Israel.

Building an unauthorized and therefore illegal playground in that area is designed to create a precedent for other illegal structures being built in Area C. Involving children in such political games is designed to elicit sympathy on an emotional basis and has obviously sucked you in without understanding the facts. This is unfortunately the nature of Arab propaganda.

As the article points out the courts in Israel will deal with the issue of the validity of the demolition of this playground

Such Courts will ultimately make that decision as they did when ordering the reopening of Route 443 which had been closed to Arab vehicles following many terrorist attacks on Jewish cars traversing that road. That is how democracies and the rule of law operate.

The West Bank Arabs could do with more playgrounds, swimming pools and recreation centres. It would make far more sense to build them where the overwhelming majority of the West Bank Arab population currently resides in Areas A and B and where Palestinian Authority permission only - not Israel's permission - is required.

Regrettably the West Bank Arab children suffer whilst their political master - the Palestinian Authority - cruelly denies them these facilities by wasting donors money pursuing political instead of humanitarian objectives in the location of those facilities.

If you think I am elated - I am not. It is a crying shame to see the West Bank Arabs used as pawns in the Palestinian Authority's chess game.

That is why the Palestinian Authority must be replaced by Jordan as Israel's negotiating partner to divide up sovereignty of the West Bank between their respective states.

This solution offers the hope that the sound of children's laughter will be heard in West Bank Arab towns when they once again become Jordanian citizens as existed between 1950-1988. They have had no future under Palestinian Authority rule for the last seventeen years and this will continue until Jordan steps in.

Here is an except from a report providing the statistics on house demolitions from the "Israeli Committee against the Demolition of House Demolition". As you know it is virtually impossible to obtain a permit to build so the Palestinians must choose continue to live in run-down and over-crowded housing or build illegally. Jews on the other hand have no such problems. You know this. You ignore this. That would make you complicit in these crimes, would it not?

For the whole report see: http://www.icahd.org/eng/docs/ICAHD's%20updated%20House%20demolition%20statistics.pdf
QUOTE
STATISTICS ON HOUSE DEMOLITIONS (1967-2009)
ICAHD estimates that some 24,145 Palestinian homes have been demolished in the Occupied Territories since 1967, based on information gleaned from the Israeli Ministry of Interior, the Jerusalem Municipality, the Civil Administration, OCHA and other UN sources, Palestinian & Israeli human rights groups, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, our field work and other sources. Last updated on 7 April 2009.

Types of demolitions
.....

2. Administrative demolitions: Houses demolished for lack of a building permit. This happens in Area C and in East Jerusalem, under exclusive Israeli authority, though prior to the existence of Areas A, B & C it occurred in other areas as well. It is important to point out that in almost all cases, Palestinians have no choice but to build "illegally" as permits are almost impossible to obtain. It is also the case that in Area B, if a house is in close proximity to a military base or a road used by the military or settlers, it may also face administrative demolition. Israeli officials explain this type of demolition by stating that Palestinians are violating the zoning and planning laws and that the demolitions are merely law enforcement. This type of demolition accounts for approximately 26% of defined demolitions. Article 53 of the Fourth Geneva Convention declares that the destruction of property “is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations.” With these demolitions there is no pretense of military action, and are as such clear violations of international law.
UNQUOTE

# grateful

You are becoming quite tedious quoting Arab propaganda - and even worse believing what you read without questioning or looking further.

The crime presently being committed by West Bank Arabs is building illegally and without a permit.

I am sure that wherever you live the same kind of conduct is not permitted and unauthorized structures are likely to be demolished. That is called the rule of law.

If people flout the law - no matter how unfair or oppressive they might claim it to be - then they have to face the consequences.

By all means advocate a change to the law but don't shed crocodile tears for those who knowingly and willfully choose to break the existing law.

Aggrieved persons have the right to appeal through the Israeli legal system against demolition orders. Sometimes the authorities do get it wrong or there are extenuating circumstances and that is why Israel has Courts to redress wrongs for Arabs who are not even its citizens. That is called the protection of individual legal rights.

When a person appeals to the Court in Israel the order for demolition is automatically stayed until the authority proves to the satisfaction of the Court that the demolition should proceed.

At present there are 400 cases of appeals against demolition that have not been proceeded with by Israel because the State does not believe the demolition order can be justified. One such case goes back to a demolition order issued in 1997.

You can live by the law or die by the sword. The Palestinian Authority has chosen the latter. They are fools and those who support their stupid and irresponsible actions over the past 17 years in encouraging or supporting the building of illegal structures are as well.

Further negotiations with the Palestinian Authority are a complete waste of time. They have proved quite simply unequal to the task.

David you say: “You are becoming quite tedious quoting Arab propaganda - and even worse believing what you read without questioning or looking further.”

What Arab propaganda?

The "Israeli Committee against the Demolition of House Demolition" are all Jews living in Israel. If you watch their videos you’ll see just how easy it is for Israelis and Palestinians to work together and enjoy each others company. No need for apartheid: http://www.icahd.org/eng/video.asp?menu=video&submenu=video

And here are some photos of Israelis and Palestinians working together in rebuilding efforts: http://www.icahd.org/eng/campaigns.asp?menu=4&submenu=2

David you also say: “I am sure that wherever you live the same kind of conduct is not permitted and unauthorized structures are likely to be demolished.”

Where i come from (Australia) they do not discriminate based on ethnicity or religion in issuing permits. Furthermore, if a structure such as an extension is built without a permit from my experience the council will inspect it to see if it complies with safety requirements and if there are no objections from the neighbours will in fact authorise the structure. The notion that such a society can exist appears foreign to you. So where do you come from?

Anyway, back to my question: Are you complicit in the violation of fundamental human rights?

You know that your fellow human beings are being denied permits to build because they are not Jewish and this is forcing them to choose between either living in increasing crowded and dilapidated dwellings or risking their savings by building without a permit. This is the choice they are forced to make. This is obviously unjust. Yet you defend and parrot the official line.

Pretty sickening when you consider the number of families that have been left homeless and traumatised.

"The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions" also takes donations:

http://icahd.org/eng/18000homesdonate.asp

#grateful

Arab propaganda is Arab propaganda whether it is disseminated by Jews, Christians or Calathumpians.

Arab propaganda - like Nazi propaganda - has been spectacularly successful in demonizing the Jews and additionally delegitimizing the State of Israel as the national home of the Jewish people.

Anyone making a general statement in this kind of contentious and emotive environment must be prepared to back it up with a source that can be verified for its accuracy and lack of bias.

For example you say ICHAD are "all Jews living in Israel" I don't know whether that is true or not. What is your source?

You infer that Israel is discriminating on the basis of ethnicity or religion. Is ICHAD your authority? I will give you a source to rebut your statement:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1106498.html

Demolition of unauthorized structures is not solely restricted to Arabs but applies to Jews as well. Your claim is malicious and misleading.

You also infer that no Arab applications to build are approved. This again is wrong.

I repeat - both Jews and Arabs are required to observe the law. If they don't they both pay the consequences.

Of course none of this would even be discussed today if the Arabs had accepted the offers made to them in 1937 and 1947 and the West Bank Arabs had not chosen to unify the West Bank and East Jerusalem with Jordan between 1950-1967 when not one Jew lived there as they had all been driven out by the invading Arab armies.

The problems the Arabs and the Jews face today are the results of those poor Arab decisions and the Arabs' insistence that they are entitled to sovereignty in every square meter of the West Bank and East Jerusalem contrary to the Security Council Resolution 242, the Mandate for Palestine and article 80 of the UN Charter.

Yes - more law that is being subverted in a smokescreen of propaganda that Jews have no human and legal rights to live in peace and security within recognized and secure boundaries as decreed by the international community and enshrined in international law.

David,

Although your definition of "Arab propaganda" itself smacks of racism, let's side-step the issue and get to the facts.

You challenge the claim of discrimination against non-Jews. To mind an objective test of racism would be the following:

Consider the proportion of Jews and non-Jews in an area (eg. I think the proportions are 70/30 in East Jerusalem)

Compare this proportion to other proportions such as:
-the poportion of housing permits issued to Jews and non-Jews
-the proportion of council services going to Jews and non-Jews
and so on

Before we start, would you agree that this is a fair method of testing the claim of discrimination?

..just to add.

If there is no discrimination then we would expect the allocation of permits, council funds etc to be roughly the same as the population proportions.

If the proportions are significantly different from the population proportions then we can conclude there is likely to be discrimination.

What ye say, David? A reasonable approach to the issue?

# grateful

Funny how you avoid answering my queries. For the record I ask you again:

1. What is the source of your statement that ICHAD is comprised of "all Jews living in Israel"?

2. Do you agree that Jewish as well as Arab unauthorized structures are being demolished in the light of the authority I gave you?

3. Do you agree that some Arab construction permits are being approved?

I don't think it is really productive to continue a dialogue that clearly does not deal with the subject matter of my article which points to the unbridgeable gaps between the Israeli and Arabs positions as honestly acknowledged by Saeb Erekat and Dr Liel and the need to look to alternative options to end the conflict.

I am the first to agree that the present status quo must be changed.It is intolerable for both Jews and Arabs - especially Arabs.

Separation of the populations has been the preferred international option since 1937. It appears nothing has changed to alter that view.

In my opinion such separation can now only be achieved by Israel and Jordan dividing the West Bank since attempts at separation by Israel and the Palestinian Authority have yielded no results for the last 17 years.

As an aside I am interested in your statement:

"Consider the proportion of Jews and non-Jews in an area (eg. I think the proportions are 70/30 in East Jerusalem)"

What is your authority for "thinking" the proportions are 70/30 in East Jerusalem and does that mean 70 Jews/30 Arabs or 70 Arabs/30 Jews?

The "all Jews" is based on the videos (Jews speaking in Hebrew along with other articles). this is what they say about themselves:

QUOTE
ICAHD is a non-violent, direct-action group originally established to oppose and resist Israeli demolition of Palestinian houses in the Occupied Territories. As our activists gained direct knowledge of the brutalities of the Occupation, we expanded our resistance activities to other areas - land expropriation, settlement expansion, by-pass road construction, policies of "closure" and "separation," the wholesale uprooting of fruit and olive trees and more. The fierce repression of Palestinian efforts to "shake off" the Occupation following the latest Intifada has only added urgency to our efforts.

As a direct-action group, ICAHD is comprised of members of many Israeli peace and human rights organizations. All of our work in the Occupied Territories is closely coordinated with local Palestinian organizations.
QUOTE

Do you speak Hebrew? Some of the videos are in Hebrew with English subtitles: http://icahd.org/eng/video.asp?menu=video&submenu=video

Regarding the demolition of structures and permits the true test is a comparison between the proportion of the population that is Jewish and non-Jewish (i cann't use the term Arab because according to you it includes Jews and calithumpians) with

i) the proportion of permits issued
ii) proportion of council funds received for things like water sewerage
iii) anything you'd like to add?

According to you there is no discrimination. If this were so then i think we can both agree that we'd expect to find these proportions to be roughly similar to the proportion of population. Otherwise, we would have evidence to support discrimination.

As to whether the proportion is 70/30, this would need to be verified.

So, do you agree that this would be a reasonable procedure for evaluating whether there is evidence of discrimination?

#grateful

Seems you have trouble comprehending.

I asked three questions and you only answered one.

Your answer that ICAHD is comprised of "all Jew" is "based on the videos (Jews speaking in Hebrew along with other articles)"

Has it ever occurred to you that 1.2 million Arabs living in Israel speak Hebrew and a large number of Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza speak Hebrew too? Maybe some of those speaking Hebrew on the videos were in fact Arabs.

What motivated you to say members of ICHAD were "all Jews" when you had no substantive evidence to back your claim? Why was it important for you to make such a statement at all? Why not just refer to "ICHAD" without adding the rider that they were "all Jews"?

Before you make any statement be sure you have the source to substantiate what you write - no matter how trivial or insignificant it might seem.

When can I expect an answer to the remaining two unanswered questions:

1. Do you agree that Jewish as well as Arab unauthorized structures are being demolished in the light of the authority I gave you?

2. Do you agree that some Arab construction permits are being approved?

I also note that what you "thought" about the 70/30 proportion of Arabs and Jews living in East Jerusalem now needs to be "verified".

When you have "verified" your statement please let us all in on the source and which group - the Arabs or the Jews - is the larger proportion.

Again it is a pity you make a statement such as this before verifying it to be correct. To be fair to you at least you qualified this statement to be a thought only.

However readers are not necessarily that discerning and pick up statements such as this believing it to be factually accurate when really it is nothing more than a thought.

To anyone following this protracted correspondence please be wary of OLO posters writing anything they cannot substantiate

I detect two absurd suggestions in your reponce which indicates that you are clutching at straws

Firstly, I responded to your questions with the following

QUOTE Regarding the demolition of structures and permits the true test is a comparison between the proportion of the population that is Jewish and non-Jewish (i cann't use the term Arab because according to you it includes Jews and calithumpians) with

i) the proportion of permits issued
ii) proportion of council funds received for things like water sewerage
iii) anything you'd like to add?

According to you there is no discrimination. If this were so then i think we can both agree that we'd expect to find these proportions to be roughly similar to the proportion of population. Otherwise, we would have evidence to support discrimination.
QUOTE

However, you appear to reject this method of testing your claim of no discrimination and prefer to argue that as long as it is shown that some settlements have been pulled down and some permits have been issued to Palestinians there is no discrimination.

This of course is not an approach that any statistician would endorse (i know some statistics) and i'm fairly confident you would be aware of this. This is the first absurdity.

As for the second absurd suggestion:

If you want to argue that the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions is not organised by Jews living in Israel then the onous is obviously on you to provide the evidence. You haven't provided any evidence.

Instead you have proposed that it is Israeli Arabs masquerading as Jews who have put up the web site with all the material and videos, along with the speaking tours to U.S. by Jeff Harper (http://www.icahd.org/eng/). Take a bit of time to watch their videos and see how extraordinarily talented these Arabs are as disguising themselves and their accents.

If in fact you were confident in your claim that there is no discrimination you would have actually embrace the approach i have suggested. It is a standard approach for testing for discrimination.

cont...

Your reaction reinforces my view that you are in fact complicit in actions which leaves our fellow human beings homeless and traumatised

But one more chance:

Do you accept my suggestion for testing whether or not there is discrimination?

Or do you want to plead guilty and do your time...you'll come out as better person.

Mr Singer,
You mention Palestinian unauthorised building on The West Bank, but that news never appears in the mainstream media to my knowledge.
http://tinyurl.com/yzvr58p
Kind Regards,
HK

# grateful

You are going from bad to worse.

Please answer the following questions that I now pose for the FOURTH time

1. Do you agree that Jewish as well as Arab unauthorized structures are being demolished in the light of the authority I gave you?

2. Do you agree that some Arab construction permits are being approved?

Don't you have the words "Yes" or "No" in your vocabulary? Why do you continue writing 300 words of drivel not answering these rather simple questions when you can use just one or both of these words to answer them. If you feel the need to qualify your answer then do so.

I will deal with your queries after you have answered the above - and after you have also verified or withdraw your 70/30 claim regarding the proportion of Jews/Arabs living in East Jerusalem.

I find your view - that I have to disprove that ICHAD is not composed of "all Jews" before you produce your evidence that says they all are - a very strange thought process indeed.

Like the 70/30 claim I am not prepared to accept your statements unless you have the substantive evidence to prove that what you say is factually correct.

You may have guessed I am not prepared to accept what you say at face value unless you back up your statements with a reliable source.

So put up or shut up.

#Klein

The following is taken from Tony Blair's web site [http://www.tonyblairoffice.org/quartet/pages/key-issues/] and sets out the facts in a fairly unbiased way:

"Area C

Israel retains full security and civil control in what’s called “Area C”, land comprising 60 percent of the territory in the West Bank - under the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement reached in 1995, the West Bank was divided into Areas A, B and C, with specific administrative and security responsibilities assigned to the Palestinian and Israeli authorities in each. The Government of Israel (GoI) must therefore approve any proposed economic development in Area C. Palestinians may not develop Area C, nor make plans to do so, without the GoI’s permission. Demolitions of unauthorised structures continue, as does GoI expropriation of land. Palestinian access to agricultural land is severely restricted. Opportunities to develop tourism on the Dead Sea coast cannot be exploited. The Office of the Quartet Representative makes the arguments for a series of measures designed to promote economic development, improve infrastructure, and increase freedom of movement and access to land, in order to support effective development in Area C and help build the foundations of the future Palestinian State."

What Blair omits to say is that only 5% of the Arab population of the West Bank live in this 60% of the West Bank.

Anyone travelling to the West Bank would have seen this area resembling the vast moonscape met by Neil Armstrong.

It is however a highly strategic area whose sovereignty remains as yet undetermined and is the location of most of the Israeli settlements established since 1967. Parts of it will certainly be retained by Israel in any final status negotiations to provide Israel with "secure and recognized boundaries" under Security Council Resolution 242

Sorry David, but I'm interested in a serious test of the proposition of whether there is discrimination, and not in playing word games with a Zionist with poor manners.

Nevertheless, I'd welcome any data/sources that you can provide and i'll make my own inquiries.

#grateful

Once again can I respectfully say that it is not for me to provide you with data/sources so you can make your own inquiries as to whether what you spouted off the top of your head was true or not.

You suggested that only Arab unauthorized structures were demolished - no Jewish ones.

You suggested no Arab building applications were being approved.

These are very damaging statements - if true. I challenged you to provide the source for those statements.

If you make statements like these you must be prepared to substantiate them.

You are apparently unable or reluctant to do so.

Hot air is cheap. My time is not.

So for the FIFTH TIME I am asking you to answer the following questions:

1. Do you agree that Jewish as well as Arab unauthorized structures are being demolished in the light of the authority I gave you?

2. Do you agree that some Arab construction permits are being approved?

David,
It is share of total permits received by non-Jews and how this proportion compares with the share of non- Jews in the population that is critical and not the absolute number of permits.

Similarly, it is the share of total demolitions that involve Jews that is critical and not their absolute number.

It would also be interesting to consider the extent to which Jews and non-Jews were supported after having their homes demolished.

The impression I get is that whenever a Jewish settlement is pulled down, the residents are reallocated and provided alternative accommodation and perhaps other support.

On the other hand i have never heard of a non-Jew being reallocated or compensated when they have been left homeless. This would be another area to test for discrimination.

#grateful

Your "impression" and "what you have heard" are irrelevant and of course cannot be tested as to their veracity without you sharing with us the sources.

For the SIXTH time can you please answer the following questions:

1. Do you agree that Jewish as well as Arab unauthorized structures are being demolished in the light of the authority I gave you?

2. Do you agree that some Arab construction permits are being approved?

Yes - I am still also waiting for your verification of the 70/30 claim you "thought" was applicable to the ratio of Jews and Arabs living in East Jerusalem.

Do you want to ring a friend to help you in what appears to be a lot of foot dragging?

OLO readers might find your reluctance to answer rather surprising - as I do.

I've been busy,

i see that you are persisting with the questions and still have not figured out that my answers are implicit in my research questions i've proposed. Read carefully this time:

"It is share of total permits received by non-Jews and how this proportion compares with the share of non- Jews in the population that is critical and not the absolute number of permits.

Similarly, it is the share of total demolitions that involve Jews that is critical and not their absolute number."

In any case, i'm not interested in any direct dialogue with you after your earlier vulgar remarks, particularly in labelling anyone with a view you disliked as "Arab propagandists"

But i can report progress. Here is a snippet from a World Bank Report which describes discriminatory treatment in regard to the issue and revokation of IDs for Jeruselam residents:

1/2 cont...

2/2 cont

QUOTE
Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem live under different regulations than Palestinian residents of the rest of the West Bank due to GOI annexation of East Jerusalem in 1967 which exists in violation of multiple UN Security Council resolutions.

Under the Oslo Accords, the status of East Jerusalem was left to final status negotiations and therefore Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem are currently considered neither citizens of Israel nor residents of WB&G. Instead, they have received Jerusalem identification cards from GOI, but are not necessarily eligible for Israeli passports nor allowed to accept Palestinian passports or travel documents. GOI can revoke Jerusalem IDs if it determines that Jerusalem ceases to be the “center of life” of the ID-holder.

As part of this process, checks on official residences are conducted including entering homes to look for signs of residency. Obtaining a foreign passport, or residing in a foreign country for more than three years for purposes other than education, can also result in revocation of Jerusalem IDs.

These restrictions and procedures, however, do not apply to Israeli residents of settlements in East Jerusalem. According to statistics of Israel’s Ministry of Interior, between 1967 and 2006 more than 8,200 Palestinians had their Jerusalem ID’s revoked, with the justification for revocation in the vast majority of cases being that the ID-holder had relocated abroad.According to statistics gathered by B’Tselem, over 1360 Palestinians from Jerusalem had their ID cards revoked in 2006 – more than in any previous year since 1967 and a 500% increase over the number of revocations in 200561. Palestinians with IDs from other parts of the West Bank need a special permit to access East Jerusalem and then can enter through only four established “crossings”. Eight crossings have been provided for Israeli citizens or residents, including settlers, who need no permits.

UNQUOTE

pp10-11#http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTWESTBANKGAZA/Resources/WestBankrestrictions9Mayfinal.pdf

I’ll keep you posted on my progress