Severin
I agree, that I may also be accosted by a drunk person and if I lived in Melbourne that is probably highly possible on selected streets and at certain times. But that is a separate issue. Responsible alcohol use does not lead to the same problems as other substances especially Crack cocaine or Ice. Heroin use has long term effects on the brain and the effects of heroin use on foetal development is well documented. Heroin is highly addictive.

I agree that alcohol abuse is a problem too, but that is partly my point why add to the list of legally obtained substances.

I have been around people high on drugs and it is not always fun nor do people behave considerately towards others under the influence - no matter how the film industry or other entertainment media attempt to glamorise drug use.

In many criminal cases drug use has led to the committing of serious and not so serious crime including murder. And I am not talking about the drug trade but what people might do during a drug induced neurosis. Even if one does not subscribe to that view, further research is certainly required if we are to go down a legalising path.

There is mounting evidence that drug use causes a variety of mental illnesses in some people genetically predisposed particularly in relation to seemingless harmful drugs like cannabis.

Why is it we seek to legalise substances instead of investigating more into what it is that draws people to drugs? Shouldn't we all be investing in achieving a healthier society.

Civil liberties does not just apply to users.

pelican,

You can arrest people for breaking the law as a result of their drug use. As you can arrest terrorists under the existing laws that say you're not allowed to blow stuff up. There's no need to criminalise two people who enjoy riding motorcycles meeting each other to stop violent crime.

There is no need to outlaw the drug because a few cant handle it. And it is a few in comparison to how widespread drug use is through all walks of life in the community.

What we are really doing is criminalising poverty. We turn a blind eye or give a slap on the wrist to the rich and middle class when they take drugs. It's only those pikeys who need to be prevented some of the life pleasures of the rich and middle class. Legalising drug use would bring the price down, allowing the poorer the same joys as the rich. Cant have that can we? We keep all the coke for the rich, and leave the more damaging crack to the poor, then jail them for using it. Then in places like the US with privately run jails, they are used for slave labour. All for wanting a simple joy the rich are allowed.

'investigating more into what it is that draws people to drugs? '

It's simple. It's fun! It feels good! Why don't we investigate what draws people to sex?

pelican: "I have been around people high on drugs ... [they don't] behave considerately towards others"

True, but irrelevant. Firstly no matter how you feel about the inconsiderate behaviour of people high on drugs, I happen to rate drug death rates as far higher consideration. So is how well drug users function in society, and I rate receiving medical support, holding down a job, being home for the kids as better on that scale than being jailed for six months. How about you? And finally the discussion here is not about how people behave when under the influence, it is about how to avoid being under the influence.

You statement implies illegal means less consumption, but figures presented show the reverse. So where is your counter evidence? Here, more evidence your "common sense" beliefs are wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Netherlands#Results_of_the_drug_policy

pelican: "further research is certainly required if we are to go down a legalising path."

Ah yes. That old canard of "further research required". I am surprised you stooped to it, given how common it is. We have had prohibition for 40 odd years. Look at the table 4.2 in http://www.aihw.gov.au/publications/phe/soduia06/soduia06.pdf Absolutely no change drug usage from 1991 to 2004. Isn't 40 years of this failure to improve enough for you?

pelican: "There is mounting evidence that drug use causes a variety of mental illnesses in some people genetically predisposed"

True, but your point again escapes me unless you are subvertly trying to say "cannabis use will go up if we legalise it". By the by, the evidence also says those very same people will use cannabis, illegal or not, because they are ill, desperately need a solution and so self-medicate with it.

pelican: "Why is it we seek to legalise substances instead of investigating more into what it is that draws people to drugs?"

You're kidding me. Are you really claiming that is the choice we face? Are you really saying if we legalise drugs we will not investigate them? Tell me you aren't saying that, please. If you are, explain the continuing investigations into the effects of smoking.

Pelican

I know you are as concerned as I and I want you to know that I understand an respect your position even while disagreeing.

"Why is it we seek to legalise substances instead of investigating more into what it is that draws people to drugs?"

A fair question. In my own case it was to both deal with depression and yes, to have fun. I use different drugs for different purposes. This is a typical reason for humans to use drugs since primitive man first ate some overripe and therefore fermented fruit. While saying drug taking is part of human culture sounds trite, it is nonetheless true. We can no more legislate against drug taking than we can against stupidity. However, we can mitigate the damage.

I also disagree that heroin causes more and worse brain damage than alcohol.

Please consider:

"Alcohol can kill brain cells directly, or nutritional problems associated with alcoholism can do the damage. Chronic heavy drinking is associated with an increased risk for an alcohol-related form of dementia.

Heavy drinkers are less likely to consume adequate levels of essential vitamins and minerals and additionally, alcohol’s effects on the gastrointestinal system can limit the body’s ability to absorb these essential vitamins and minerals.

Alcohol-related dementias are not the same as Alzheimer’s disease, though they share some similarities. Alcohol-related dementia impacts cognitive capacities more globally, affecting far more than just memory. In addition to memory problems, symptoms of alcohol-related dementia include:

* Changes in personality
* Altered judgment
* A reduction in social skills
* A reduction in logical planning skills
* A loss of coordination"

http://www.drug-rehabs.com/alcohol_related_brain_damage.htm

Or consider what won't be achieved by continued criminalisation:

• Stop gangs from selling other drugs to our kids (since illegal drug dealers rarely check for ID);

• Stop drug dealers from brutally murdering rival traffickers for the purpose of controlling the remaining criminal market for other drugs;

• Stop drug dealers from firing on cops charged with fighting the senseless war on other illicit drugs;

• Stop drug dealers from killing kids caught in crossfire and drive-by shootings;

Cont'd

Cont'd

"Stop overdose deaths of drug users who refrain from calling 911 (000) out of fear of legal repercussions;

• Reduce the spread of infectious diseases like AIDS and hepatitis, since marijuana users don’t inject their drug like heroin users (who sometimes share dirty needles and syringes because prohibition makes it hard to secure clean ones);

• Stop the bloody cartel battles in Mexico that are rapidly expanding over the border into the U.S;

• Stop the Taliban from raking in massive profits from illegal opium cultivation in Afghanistan."

http://www.alternet.org/drugs/144573/former_police_chief_norm_stamper:_%27let%27s_not_stop_at_marijuana_legalization%27/

I understand why you say:

"I agree that alcohol abuse is a problem too, but that is partly my point why add to the list of legally obtained substances.".

And I reiterate we can't legislate against the human disposition towards taking drugs, but at least with alcohol we have support programs and abusers are not charged as criminals as well.

Had I been caught for taking illegal drugs in my past, I would not likely be here today discussing this issue with you as I do not see how a criminal record would've in any way assisted me in recovery than the actions I took myself.

rstuart
Where have I said smoking is a good thing? And there have been much in the way of scientific evidence that now points to smoking as harmful, hence the continued efforts to reduce smoking. Much more difficult to make illegal once it is legalised.

I haven't subvertly said cannabis use will go up - I openly claim that it WILL go up as I have said many times on this issue on OLO.

It is sometimes difficult not to sound repetitive when the same issues arise. You are welcome to delve and find any of my other comments on this issue in the OLO archives.

Hysteria and contrived outrage doubting my integrity in raising research issues (clearly needed) only makes your position weaker rstuart.

Houlley,
Yes the rich get away with much not just in the area of drug use but in white collar crime and tax evasion. It is wrong in both cases. Sex does not have the same impact as drugs. But thanks Houlley and Severin for taking a more reasoned and thought out response without an accusatory tone.