Dear George,

http://library.thinkquest.org/C005705/English/sound/history.htm

About 500 A.D. the Roman philosopher Anicius Manilius Severinus Boethius specifically compared the conduction of sound through the air to the waves produced by dropping a pebble into calm water.

The following is an account of a scientific experiment before the invention of Christianity:

From http://www.juliantrubin.com/bigten/eratosthenes.html

Eratosthenes' Experiment

Eratosthenes calculated Earth's circumference circa 240 BC, based on the assumption that the Earth is spherical and that the Sun is so far away that its rays can be taken as parallel.

The basis of the experiment is the fact that on the summer solstice, local noon, the sun rays are just overhead on the Tropic of Cancer.
Eratosthenes' Experiment

Eratosthenes knew that on the summer solstice at local noon on the Tropic of Cancer, the Sun appears at the zenith, directly overhead - though Syene was actually slightly north of the tropic. He also knew, from using a vertical stick and measuring the cast shadow, that in his hometown of Alexandria, the angle of elevation of the Sun would be 83° or 7° south of the zenith at the same time. Assuming that Alexandria was due north of Syene - Alexandria is in fact on a more westerly longitude - he concluded, using geometry of parallel lines, that the distance from Alexandria to Syene must be 7/360 of the total circumference of the Earth. The distance between the cities was known from caravan travellings to be about 5,000 stadia. He established a final value of 700 stadia per degree, which implies a circumference of 252,000 stadia. The exact size of the stadion he used is no longer known (the common Attic stadion was about 185 m), but it is generally believed that Eratosthenes' value corresponds to between 39,690 km and 46,620 km. The circumference of the Earth around the poles is now measured at around 40,008 km. Eratosthenes result is not bad at all.

Barring catastrophe I expect that science will continue when Christianity is only of interest to antiquarians.

Dear George,

Most medieval Christians were superstitious and ignorant. "The Dark Ages" dated from 380 to the 17th and 18th centuries. On 27 February 380 Theodosius declared "Catholic Christianity" the only legitimate imperial religion. "The Closing of the Western Mind" by Freeman tells how the spirit of enquiry that existed in the classical world was criminalised at that point. In 384 Theodosius prohibited haruspicy, the inspection of the entrails of sacrificed animals, on pain of death, and unlike earlier anti-pagan prohibitions, he made non-enforcement of the law, by Magistrates, into a crime itself. Priscillian was the first person in the history of Christianity to be executed for heresy in 385.

However, the dominance of Christianity was only in the western world.

Islam produced a powerful civilization that made great scientific and technical advances. Chemistry, navigation, astronomy and other sciences still use the the Arabic words such as alembic (a type of flask), Deneb (a star), apogee (a high point in orbit). Islamic universities had Buddhist, Jewish and Christian scholars while Christian universities were restricted to Christians. There was a great flowering of knowledge. They took many things from other cultures and developed many things themselves.

In mathematics their influence was considerable. Computer programming would be impossible without the concept of the algorithm. It gets its name from Muhammed ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi who developed it around 825. The sine theorem of spherical trigonometry, sine tables accurate to 8 places, studies of cubic and quartic equations, reform of the calendar (unfortunately later replaced by a lunar calendar}, developments in non-Euclidean geometry and iterative methods to solve equations.

In the fourteenth century Islamic clergy prevailed, and Islam entered their own Dark Ages in which much of that world still languishes.

As the earth turns there is light and darkness in different areas. Analogously as humans free themselves from the spirit of authoritarian religion (Note: I don’t denigrate all religion.) they become free to question and learn. Unfortunately Protestant fundamentalism is gaining ground in my country, the US, at this time, and the country may be marching backwards into a new Dark Age.

Thanks George.

Atheists don't necessarily deny the spiritual, however that might be defined. There are many things we don't understand and experiences for which we cannot provide explanations. The difference probably is that the atheist waits for the explanation to manifest, usually through natural scientific progress, while the religious person bases their view on faith.

There are many ways to experience spirituality (perhaps in some way they are all manifested from within) whether it be a connection with the earth, as in many Indigenous communities, or with the natural environment around us. We can all appreciate those same experiences whether they emanate from "God" or natural processes, or part of what just is.

For some miracles must be an important part of their faith. If it gives hope, or provides answers, then those who seek to be strengthened by those views, will no doubt receive that release or comfort at a time of great need.

I understand what you mean about comfort. My mother who also died from cancer got great comfort from reading books about Buddhism, meditation, death and dying although she was not a Buddhist, but raised initially as a devout Catholic.

Dear David f,
I concede that Boethius measured the speed of sound. Nevertheless, I still maintain that medieval man could not have had a clear distinction as to what - from the forces, etc. THEY considered as existing, real - could be investigated by science (hence seen as existing, real also by CONTEMPORARY atheists) and what not. Nevertheless, thank you for an excursion into some history of science.

>>the dominance of Christianity was only in the western world<<
Exactly, so my remarks about the traditional understanding of “miracle” were restricted only to the western world, in particular its medieval period.

As for the rest, I can only repeat what I wrote in http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=9292#153841.

pelican,
Yes, there are atheist who “believe in God” by identifying God with Nature (pantheists), and those who speak of spirituality (see e.g. Ursula Goodenough, The Sacred Depths of Nature, OUP 2000) or mystical experience as just a product of the physical. (A study of spirituality that is more open-minded, admitting also the existence of Something affecting our mind that is not reducible to the biological, is e.g. David Hay, Something There: The Biology of the Human Spirit, Templeton 2006.)

For these reasons some Buddhists can be classified as atheist (from our, western, point of view), some not, although even the latter do not have the concept of a personal God in the Abrahamic sense.

I agree that there are many ways to experience spirituality, some associated with this or that religiosity, some not. Certainly no mystical or spiritual experience can serve as a “proof” for the existence of a Source of this experience that is beyond the physical. Nevertheless, it can reinforce the subject’s pre-existing faith, religiosity.

I can understand your mother - having been raised as a devout Catholic - finding solace in reading books that looked at the process of dying (eventually in hope for an existence at a higher level) from a non-Christian perspective. I myself have seen my Christian faith uplifted by reading e.g. (the translations of) Lao Tse or Chuang Tzu, though this is not exactly what the Church recommends.