Shorten, the subverter of justice, set for Prime Ministership.

https://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com/2016/05/15/bill-shortens-alleged-crimes-are-fraud-theft-adultery-and-rape-to-name-a-few-should-he-be-pm/

Why should past crimes of the political class, be forgotten at election time?

Dan

I have allowed this post with misgivings. What it links to is factual, but it would be very easy for comments to become defamatory. I've also checked out the site that the information is on, and the author clearly has some issues, and is reckless when it comes to allegations. I'd caution anyone to be very careful before linking to his material. He is currently being sued for criminal defamation.

Graham.

Shane Dowling does not deal at all in innuendo, true. But he does demonstrate the real cost of free speech; (and as it's becoming increasingly obvious, the cost attached also to free thought).
He is an interesting political activist.

The defamation charges against him are tactical, as they we're likewise used against him, in his long and difficult efforts exposing fraud with Capilano honey illegal adulteration of Australian honey, with imported Chinese substitutes.

To be made look like a fool, does not prove you are one; meet Shane Dowling.

Diver Dan in saying RUBBISH I think, know this
*my days in the ALP seem to be limited*
First thank you GY no one expects you to be any better than anyone else you have my respect and regards
If it is Not intended that I be dumped this post may be the one that gets me chopped
SEE KNOW BILL SHORTEN, he was first as a delegate the head of my union
Later I became a member of thatunions officials
Bill bought two unions together,he like me,was AWU we nearly saw our union die,Bill, the Howes,another great man, held us together
Those days we even had to fight other unions,leftist, thugs and mugs, who wanted our construction members
We, in the end, took theirs,as refugees
They,the members,asked to come, the average workers is no leftist
Bill even then was a brilliant man
Firms found him so, even then, some offered help, honest help, to a man they and I saw a a future Prime Minister
Nothing illegal took place *unions always fund the ALP we funded our start, Wayne swan is another life member
Mr Morrison? yes thank you you are spot on a vote for Bill Shorten IS A VOTE FOR A GOOD AND HONEST MAN A PRIME MINISTER TO BE PROUD OF
continued

DUMPED? FROM THE ALP? a foot soldier for the years 1972 till now?
Yep,me see I know both sides have *criminals* always have had
IF you claim any understanding of politics you will know both Sir Robin Askin and Neville Wran,excelled in that roll
I upset at a fellow in HTV workers on my side, sitting under the NATIONALS tent
Talking about THEIR LAST TRIP TO EUROPE got offside
KNOWING the Obeid scum team to be bent, *as everyone in my party did* ten years before he fell
Hate the man still
Hate, deeply, every filthy thief riding on my party's back
And shout out loud about it,that will get me sacked
But allow me to say even more, IF SOMEONE ON THE OTHER side will only say the same! about recent events that stink
So Shorten,today,made the most impressive campaign opening post 2007, it needed to be, our task is harder now
But we and Australia will win on the 18th
Australia hopefully,will return to politics not lies,
DiverDan we will never get on, no point in telling you but a truth,the thread is a foolish claim untrue but should get you a job in Menzies House*they dare not run on their record
ps dumped ? ran foul of a younger Obeid, and post election intend to talk about it
My siblings who grew up on bread and sugar would be far from impressed with the European trip woman's view of social justice

Do we really need to stoop to this level in our
pre-election debates? Isn't it enough that
the nastiness is already there for all to see
in the campaigns that are being run - and it will
probably get even worse during the coming weeks.

What a total turn-off. Faeces throwing from monkeys
should be confined to the zoos - not in our public
domains, and certainly not in a forum like OLO.
The standard has certainly been lowered.

cont'd ...

Dear Graham,

I am rather puzzled. You've admitted that the author
of the link is being sued for criminal defamation -
yet you still allowed it. It would be a shame if
the forum was shut down due to the postings that
may ensue.

Dear Foxy,

Take courage:

«You've got to admire people who have the courage of their
convictions and are prepared to do something about it.
Who of us would even consider breaking the law for a cause
we believe in?

Posted by Foxy, Friday, 26 April 2019 11:27:22 AM»
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=20263#358589

I don't believe that anyone would shut down OLO: we might get a warning, perhaps a small fine, that's all. Or perhaps, though still unlikely, Graham may introduce a new forum-rule: NO POLITICS... (a bit more likely but still quite unlikely, NO MENTION OF NAMES OF POLITICIANS): not a problem, there are still so many better things to discuss...

Dear Yuyutsu,

Mr Scott Morrison has promised to crack down
on social media trolling and increase punishments
if the Coalition wins on 18 May.

Mr Morrison promised to increase the maximum penalties
from 3 to 5 years in jail for people who use
social media to - menace, harass, or cause offence,
under section 474.17 of the Criminal Code Act 1995.

The right is getting ever more desperate and sinking ever further into the gutter. Shame Graham Shame.
I hope Shorten sues you too.

Belly your well meaning but very miss-guided naivety to life is dangerous.

As I've stated on these pages in the past, I was a member of the BLF in Brisbane during Bjelke-Petersens reign in the sixties.
I've done plenty of marches under a union banner, when it was actually dangerous.
Confronted Queensland police lines unarmed against a violent and armed, right wing radical militia.

Then moved to Port Kembla and became a sub branch President of a ( not to mention) union for a few years, working closely with the waterside workers and the local communist party, advancing pay and conditions for the workers we covered.

I wouldn't mention my feelings for your favourite “Grub” Shorten. They would be unacceptable utterances not appropriate for OLO.

If he'd sold out the workers as he has done, (read the link), in any one of the situations I served in, he'd be lucky to live past the moment.
Gone are the good old days Belly.

I haven't a clue what world your in, or were in, but it could not have been too honourable if Shorten was the best hero you could find to stump up for!

Dan

Foxy GY has acted with nothing but honor
He is on the other side but he took the time to say what HE DID
Let me say this,yes I was heated in my two posts
And yes we are in DANGEROUS territory,not us here but our country
Hate pure hate is being generated by this election
Gillard faced similar hate
How do we learn to live together?as this tripe has become the normal for the very very lost right
POST TRUMP there will be such a day,such behavior will be questioned, within ten years all our rights to say anything online maybe taken away because of such as this
My post history will prove my insistence on putting the boot in to air thieves on my side
Until we all do, we empower some very real trash on both sides of the house

Diver Dan had no intention of conversing with you re your claimed ownership of a thread
The one you warned me to stay on subject
Yes know the BLF, in NSW the thugs and mugs had them shut down [CFMEU] then took them over
I AM From the right of the union movement, not the Soviet Union side
Not impressed with your latest silly walks sillier talks thread,just here to stand up for the 80 percent of unionists who are not rabble
AGAIN false/fake posts harm our future rights as we see above Scomo and trump the tramp are cracking down on such
Sir no doubt exists you would buy anything that suits your unhinged biases this thread is such, be careful be very very careful
PS warning once a poster said things on this site,supported by no one,that saw the very things that keep it alive advertisers, leave

I am not concerned by these alleged crimes.

There was an allegation of rape, but no actual evidence. Should someone be disqualified from the job of PM by an apparent baseless accusation? What about the job of opposition leader? I notice the article was written shortly before the PREVIOUS election in an attempt to discredit Shorten. The timing suggests it's political rather than a genuine concern about his conduct.

And the government had already thoroughly investigated Bill Shorten's conduct as a union boss in the hope of finding some dirt, but they couldn't.

That leaves adultery: not a crime in Australia. Yes, he did wrong, but it was personal rather than political and it was a long time ago. What is there to gain by holding a grudge about that?

Of greater concern is the criminal defamation suit Graham mentioned. I was under the impression that defamation was entirely a civil matter in Australia. When is it criminal, and what states does that apply to?

When the boot is on the other foot ....

Dear Foxy,

«Mr Scott Morrison has promised to crack down on social media trolling and increase punishments if the Coalition wins on 18 May.»

1. This is a respectable forum, not social media.
2. Nobody here answers the definition of "troll"¹. I can see here no menacing, harassing or offending. Graham Young would not allow any of that anyway.
3. This Morrison, isn't he a politician? Since when are we to believe politicians?
4. Penalties cannot be increased retroactively. May 18th is still in the future.
5. Coalition will not win on 18 May, so Morrison wouldn't be lying even if he promised that "All koalas will be granted Australian citizenship if the Coalition wins on 18 May".
6. Even if it did win, the small parties and independents in the Senate would not allow this to pass: there at least is a bit of democracy there, unlike the lower house where the undemocratic Australian electoral system only allows one of the two dinosaurs to win.

---
¹ a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Withdraw nothing I have said here
Restate the thread is both filth, untrue, and uninformed trash
Highlights however three things
This government,and its supporters, will say or do anything to win, *other than run on its record*
Two no concern is given not a bit, for the lasting divisions such as this brings
Three the campaign, it purely evil, lies, sets a new low in Australian politics and warns SOME think we are idiots
See you in another thread, this one is very very thin ice
One day it will be such as this thread, that brings the roof down on freedom to comment online
And tests the legal right of its posters [link and its poster here] to post such things

On this thread I have seen some outrageous hypocrisy. Only a few years ago, a left whinge activist accused Abbott of hitting the wall beside her head. That this activist clearly has skin in the game, that this supposedly happened in a usually crowded student union building and the activist has been unable to produce a single witness did not stop this allegation being aired nationally and frequently on this site.

However, when a labor youth member accuses Shorten of rape suddenly posters on this thread declare him "completely cleared" when no such thing has occurred and the investigation into a decades old rape is dropped through lack of evidence. So much for the Metoo brigade when one of their own is implicated.

Secondly, the ripping off workers by the unions in return for pay offs at Chiquita Mushrooms and Cleanevent whilst under the control of Shorten while not illegal stinks to high heaven, and the unions are unable to produce any evidence that clears Shorten of any direct involvement.

Finally, the donation from Shorten to Getup of $100 000 clearly required sign off by multiple other union officers without which it was clearly a misappropriation of funds or even embezzlement. That the union could quickly clear BS of these charges by producing the signed documents but instead are blocking any investigation through the courts makes BS look as guilty as hell.

The link in this thread, which contains rather dated material clearly is defamatory of Bill Shorten, not of some unknown and unnamed mystery person, but of a man who in 2 weeks time hopes to become the next Australian Prime Minister. What is nothing more than allegation and innuendo, old as it is, is presented in the link in such a way that a reasonable person reading it would believe it to be proven fact, and Bill Shorten is all that it says he is.

I haven't looked at the link.
I'm not interested in giving Labor my vote anyway.
It'd be like taking a perfectly good vote and flushing it straight down the toilet.

I think one test of whether Diver Dan's post is acceptable, is the conviction that he back up and defend his original post, which he has.

Yes, we are losing our right to speak freely online.
- But make no mistake people it would be the same if Hillary and Shorten were running the show.
- It's a global agenda -

It won't be because of Trump, and it won't be because of ScoMo;
And it surely won't be because of anything any forum member here says.

In any case, we should all consider that Graham had to make a point because the forum may indeed come under scrutiny one day because of this war on free speech, and the things we post and comment on.

Long Live Free Speech.

I can't be bothered opening up reference, but it's obvious that Saint Bill is being criticised; The usual nitwits are objecting, telling Graham what he should and shouldn't be publishing. The same people, of course, who roll in the muck like dogs when anything untoward is revealed by the MSM about transgressions on the other side.

Go Graham! Go diver dan!

Bit of misunderstanding here. The post is not defamatory. Everything stated in it is true, and it references public information. I wouldn't have allowed it to be posted if I thought it was defamatory. However, it's easy for people to overstep the mark, and it is obvious that the author of the original article has overstepped, and is continuing to overstep, the mark.

I was just issuing a warning to posters to be careful

There is probably a lot of muck to come out before the election; which brings us to the problem of early voting, whereby, the Reds in particular, can have a guilt-free vote before they know the truth about their heroes.

Early voting is boon for Labor. Labor starts slinging mud against non-Labor candidates right from the start, whereas the stupid Coalition is too gentlemanly to say anything about the Reds until it istoo late - if they say anything at all.

But, how the Reds do squeal whenever their own tactics are used against them!

Dear Ttbn,

What makes you think that anyone cares or even knows about the mud, or that politicians are anyone's heroes?

When I get my ballot papers, all I do is to go online and open the "policies" section of all 20 or so parties, rate their policies (on a scale of -10 to +10) and mark the ballot paper accordingly (except that the two dinosaurs always come last). There's enough work in there anyway - who's got time for the muck?

Paul,

The key requirement for anything to be defamatory is that it not true.

As all the information upon which the link is based is public knowledge to call it defamatory, and the author a troll is simply a fatuous response aimed at silencing genuine criticism.

As I pointed out above, that if the accusations contained in the link were false, Shorten with access to union records could easily produce the documents to prove that most of the accusations were false and put the issues to bed once and for all.

Instead, the unions are fighting a rearguard action in the courts to prevent these records being accessed by the police. There is no rational reason for this obstruction other than that Shorten and the unions are guilty of what they are accused of.

Yuyutsu,

I agree with your first post, even if you are casting pearls before swine who would be better off on despicable ‘social media’. Non- stop chat about very little at all is their forte.

As for the effect of muck on voting, I can’t really know what anyone but my closest acquaintances think; but, I suppose I don’t worry about it too much myself. As I said, my plan for voting at this election is this: writing ‘none of these’ on the lower house paper, with ‘end mass immigration’ and ‘end multiculturalism’, space permitting. For the senate, I have a list of the obligatory 12 below the line candidates. This list does not include the Coalition, Labor or the Greens.

Not that our votes are worth much. As I read recently, and reported on OLO, parliamentary politics is irrelevant, no matter who forms government. The country is run by ideologues in institutions and big business.

I thought it rather hypocritical to accuse Morrison of being a "classic space invader" when all Morrison did was entering wasted space !

well the Democrats in America clearly demonstrated they are very happy to embrace any grub that is anti Trump. I dare say Labour has far worse than those who were forced to resign from One Nation. The difference seems to be regressives embrace grubs in their own ranks while calling for the blood of those they oppose. Any Russian collusion yet? Thought not. Any lying Democrats and media resigned yet? Thought not.

The rumors, whispers, allegations and yes facts, are only known by Mr. SHORTEN, and a handful of police. There's been much gossip and speculation abound, even among police regarding alleged criminality associated with Mr. SHORTEN. Whatever the truth may be - As I said earlier, it's only known by Mr. Wm. (Bill) SHORTEN and a handful of police members?

Personally, I have very little time for the leader of the Opposition, or his brand of politics. However, it's utterly fallacious, and downright injudicious, for anyone to make allegations of criminality concerning this individual, unless they have verifiable proof that's capable of being tested, in a properly constituted, Court of Law.

Shadow,

As I read it, according to you if something is considered "public knowledge" then it cannot be defamatory. You also claim "for anything to be defamatory is that it not true". Are you claiming all that is public knowledge is true? Take one example from the link provided;//At no stage has Bill Shorten been cleared of rape// just like 99.9% of the population. The inference is because an allegation was made, that until proven innocent Shorten must be guilty. Is there proof that Bill Shorten is guilty of rape, if not then this bloke is impugning Shortens reputation. Interesting this kangaroo court relies heavily on another discredited kangaroo court, the so called Trade Union Royal Commission, headed by a person who was shown to exhibit a degree of bias against the labour side of politics.

Dowling also relies on rumour, under the heading "Shorten gets one of his staff pregnant" Where is the evidence this is a true statement. Read on and its rumour put out there by none other than the rabid right's mouthpiece Piers Akerman from a far right Murdoch publication.

Dear Paul,

There are many bloggers who deal
in a mixture of allegations, rumour, and
fantasy. The difficulty for any blogger is
to make themselves heard in the cacophany of
online voices. So to stirrers such as these
notoriety is a precious asset. The threat of
legal action by a would be PM would be tauted
triumphantly through the blogosphere.

We need to take what they write with a grain of
salt.

On the more positive side - look at Hawke - hardly
a saint and yet he led with the help of Keating
and made THE changes which saw Australia develop
into a 21st century economy before its time.

Some people here are bringing up the old "reds
under the beds" scare again. It shows their age
and how far out of it they really are. (probably
mentally and physically).

The only kind of "Red"that appeals to me is the following:

http://taking-shape.com.au/product/a11722/smooch-me-brooch

cont'd ...

Ooooops. Sorry for the typo - here's the link
again:

http://takingshape.com.au/product/a11722/smooch-me-brooch

Paul1405, it is not defamatory to say that someone accused someone else of something. Some of what is published on that website would not be acceptable on this website because it is clearly not based on truth. However, that Bill Shorten was accused of rape, that there is a rumour that he got a member of staff pregnant, that he short-changed workers in various industrial agreements, and that he took donations which he didn't declare until much later, plus some others are all on the public record.

The public generally think that all politicians are corrupt, so these sorts of allegations don't tend to change votes. People just shrug their shoulders.

It's not my post, but I think the issues about donations and industrial agreements are material. Shorten is a deeply dishonest individual and will be a terrible prime minister. He will dud anyone else to get his own advancement. Just ask Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd.

Thanks Graham Y for your clarification!

GrahamY,
Do you think Bill Shorten's response to the accusation of short changing workers is material? He made the point that under WorkChoices the workers and unions had very little bargaining power, so there was no way of avoiding the workers getting short changed.

We only have to look at his ridiculous scaremongering to see that ScoMo is already deeply dishonest and a terrible PM. Whereas having just watched QandA, I think it's now safe to say that not only will Shorten be our next PM, but he will be a good one.

Aiden we need a like button, I like your post

Graham,

In your line of argument, its so easy for those that want to, to attack those they don't agree with. All you need is a media outlet to create a "story", that in turn becomes "public knowledge", then others of the like mind can reproduce that material at infinitum. Like in this exercise, reproducing that material as though its accepted fact, which it is not. Its all very clever but it doesn't make it right.

The reproduction of the obscene rantings of Adolf Hitler towards Jews would be acceptable with your line of argument. I am all for free speech, but many put hate speech under the banner of free speech, which is wrong and unacceptable.

//Shorten is a deeply dishonest individual...Just ask Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd.// I do not recall either Gillard or Rudd putting that on the public record. Morrison might fall into the same category, just ask Abbott and Turnbull or some of the pre-selectors for the seat of Cook

workers getting short changed.
Aidan,
isn't it more a matter of workers short-changing themselves by supporting Labor ?

Paul,

What is public knowledge is generally what is not in dispute.

For example unlike 99.9% of the population Bill Shorten has had a complaint of rape laid against him by a woman who was at the time a vulnerable intern in the labor party and who has no apparent motivation either political or financial to make a false claim. That decades later there was insufficient evidence for a successful prosecution does little for his reputation. That BS while married knocked up another man's wife and is rumoured to have knocked up another ALP staff member does not imbue him either.

That under Shorten a series of agreements that severely disadvantaged workers by $100s of millions were negotiated in return for generous donations to the union is also public knowledge. That the unions refuse to release any records of these transactions stinks to high heaven.

Aidan,

That these contracts were negotiated under work choices so the unions had no choice but to accept the substantial payments from the employers is unmitigated bollocks considering that none of the employers could have stripped the employees rights without a union agreement.

You might not have noticed Paul, but that is exactly how global warming hysteria has spread. Someone publishes a dodgy paper, which all the hysterics latch onto and reference and repost. The next thing you know it is the truth.

These are not strategies I use, but others do, and I'm not going to selectively adjudicate between people who are essentially doing the same thing.

You might recall the Tony Abbott case where it was alleged he intimidated a woman at a university when he was a student, or the Kavanaugh case in the USA.

If you want change, then you need to change the laws.

BTW, I have a copy of Mein Kampf, and Hitler is clearly mad. I'd be happy to reproduce some of his speeches. No harm in exposing idiots. And it's not illegal here.

Dear Aidan,

I watched Scott Morrison being interviewed by Leigh Sales
on the 7.30 Report last night. It did not go well.
Morrison came across as very aggressive. He tried
talking over Leigh Sales, and kept on attacking Labor
without answering the questions being asked. It was a very
poor showing.

On the other hand - I also watched Q&A later in the evening
where Bill Shorten faced a large diverse audience at Monash
University - answering questions from members of the
public, students, school students, and questions via
Skype. The heat was really turned on for the man.

He behaved admirably. He was relaxed, and warmed to the
audience. He easily handled some very tough questions with
ease. Unlike Morrison, Shorten did not launch an attack on
the Liberal Party. He behaved graciously and professionally.
And displayed the qualities of a leader.
I've never been crazy about Mr Shorten in the past - but
after watching Q&A last night - I was impressed.
Very impressed. I agree with you - he will make a good PM!

Dear Foxy,

I'm wondering if you also managed to watch Chris Bowen on Q&A? I thought he was quite impressive.

Bill Shorten has done enough to win the PM job. I still have issues with the bloke but they are now well outweighed by what ScoMo and his bunch have become. I think there would probably half a dozen of those within the Labour party I would prefer above Shorten to be PM and to be truthful one or two of the Coalition would get a guernsey as well. But Morrison is well down the list.

Just as Howard ran on some solid old style Liberal party values I think Labour is now doing the same and people are responding. Bowen has articulated these with far more effectiveness than Shorten and ultimately people will probably decide to give the 'team' a go despite their misgivings over Shorten.

There are a number of people on this thread who are avid supporters of Trump despite their knowledge of the terrible sleaziness and dishonesty of the buffoon. Shorten's foibles do not come within a bull's roar of Trump's.

Jonathan Holmes - previous host of "Media Watch" wrote
back in 2012 that -

Shane Dowling's Kangaroo Court of Australia and Larry
Pickering's The Pickering Post have at various times
and to varying degrees led the charge in pursuing the
Julia Gillard-Bruce Wilson affair. They were able to pursue
that alleged scandal with far more freedom than the
mainstream media, a mixture of fact, allegation, rumour,
and fantasy, secure in the knowledge that they are to all
intents and pusposes operating outside the sanction of the
Defamation Act.

"I've no doubt that Julia Gillard would love to sue all
of them - or rather she would love to be able to use the
threat of defamation suit to silence them. But I'm sure
she and her advisers are astute enough to realise the risk
is that attempting to do so would make matters far worse for
her."

As explained earlier - the difficulty for any blogger is to
make oneself heard in the cacophany of online voices.
So to stirrers such as these, notoriety is a precious asset.
The threat of legal action by a PM would be touted
triumphantly through the blogosphere.

The blogger might well ignore legal demands that they cease
and desist, in fact, they would probably relish the
opportunity - a civil court action would afford them
to represent themselves and to trot out documents and
witnesses in support of a defence of "truth." The
evidence may or may not convince a jury - but the mainstream
media would be able to report it all because it would
attract the privilege that attends court reports.

Even if a defamation action was successful there would be
precious little chance of recovering monetary damages
(because bloggers often don't have any money) and even if
one was silenced like a game of whack-a-mole - three others
would pop up in their place.

In the case of Mr Shorten - it is rather pathetic that old
claims are still being raised to try to smear the man.
Smacks of desperation.

Dear Steele,

I did watch the episode of Q&A in which Chris
Bowen appeared and I did comment on how impressed
I was with the man. He is a great communicator and
knows what he's talking about. However, as I've stated
I was totally charmed by Bill Shorten last night.
He seemed to bring back the old style of politics - that
is so very much needed in the current climate of the
jungle that is politics today. The are lessons for all
to be had in this kind of approach. Attack, slogans,
smear tactics no longer work or appeal to voters.

//What is public knowledge is generally what is not in dispute.// At one time it was public knowledge that the Earth was flat, it was not generally in dispute, except by a crazed bunch of radicals led by Copernicus. Being public knowledge, and not being in dispute did not make it true. Accepting an allegation as truth because it is being made by a nice person is unreasonable. Scandalises allegation made against any person will do little for their reputation, no matter who makes the allegation, some mud sticks.

//That BS while married knocked up another man's wife// Please provide evidence of that, otherwise withdraw it.
// and is rumoured to have knocked up another ALP staff member// That rumour came straight out of the office of desperate Liberal with plenty to hide Michaelia Cash. Shadow, I'm not going to play tit for tat, and throw up Joyce and Christensen.

// I have a copy of Mein Kampf, and Hitler is clearly mad. I'd be happy to reproduce some of his speeches. No harm in exposing idiots. And it's not illegal here.//. That could work on some Graham, but not others. As far as I know, neither Neville Chamberlain or Robert Menzies, two men I would consider intelligent to a degree, both did have ample opportunity post 1925, pre 1939, to read Mein Kampf and then declare Hitler as clearly mad, they both failed to do so, in fact they did just the opposite. We should not always hide behind the curtain of legality, sometimes we need to exercise some moral judgement as well. Steve Dickson is a case in point, the bloke did nothing illegal, yet the guy has been penalised for his moral behaviour. I have difficulty with the Brandis statement, "people have a right to be bigots". What did he mean by that, was he only referring to some old bloke that sits in his armchair swearing at the TV when there is something on about "gays". Or the bigot who gets out there, in your face about gays, inciting unintentional violence

Shorten is certainly no Brett Kavanaugh however it did not stop the leftist lying media and feminist from total lies and character assasination.

runner,

Which "leftist media?" and which feminists are you
referring to. Be more precise please. And supply us with
some evidence.

'Which "leftist media?" and which feminists are you
referring to. Be more precise please. And supply us with
some evidence.'

check with your doctor Foxy. You certainly are suffering short term memory loss.

runner,

Answer the questions. Don't divert.

Here we go, here is Bullsit Bill's signature on the Cleanevent agreement that stripped all its workers of penalty rates which as most of them worked out of normal hours cost 100s of workers up to $400m in lost wages.

https://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2019/05/bill-shortens-signature-on-no-overtime-pay-clean-event-agreement.html

Friend of the worker Bollocks.

Well yes said I would not return
But the thread gives me great joy
Unproven charges, claims that a charge equals truth
JOY, a wounded beast lashing out at the cliff it thought jumping off was a good idea
That low blow in this mornings comic book press
The inability of posters to see the flood of ex candidates, yes from both sides not as many as the beast has lost
Barnaby,his recent past reaks failure both in home life and work
Bill Shorten welcome to the lodge, but get ready, that wounded beast has intentions of jumping of that cliff many more times this and the next week

Scott Morrison is a nasty piece of work! How did this bloke enter Federal Parliament in the first place? Through a very dodgy and undemocratic pre-selection process. The vote in 2007 was Michael Towke 82 votes, Scott Morrison 8. Who wins the pre-selection Morrison. How was this so, well in jumps Murdoch's News Limited, publishers of 'The Daily Telegraph'.''The campaign against me started four days after pre-selection,'' Towke said. The Daily Telegraph then published four stories about Michael Towke which he believed had defamed him, destroyed his political career, and caused untold stress to his family. ''These stories sent my mother to hospital,'' he said. ''They demonised me. I wanted to confront them in court.''

News limited did everything to keep the matter out of the courts, It first offered a $110,000 payment, plus a private apology, to avoid going to court. But the price it demanded was that the matter be kept confidential. The company was told to take a jump. See you in court.

Though Towke would eventually win his legal war, the damage had been done. The adverse media coverage set in train a reaction within the party to get rid of him. A second ballot was ordered, in which the balance of power was shifted away from the grassroots in Cook and to the state executive. The second ballot gave the pre-selection to Scott Morrison. Amazing. He had been parachuted into the seat over Towke's political carcass. Morrison clearly had backers who wanted him to get the seat. ''These guys were prepared to ruin my life,'' Towke said.

HELLO WORLD! No not John Laws, Joe Hockey,adding to the threads charges , did our Joe, a shareholder in that firm grant is a privileged run to gain government contracts
What about the Barrier reef contract? to a firm registered in a tax haven?
CAYMAN Islands NO LESS
Water by backs, dare we talk about that?
Good heavens without the Comic book press and some here bleeding voters maybe be about to vote for policies not lies/fear, dribble
Now about the Member for Manila,or is he tourist minister?
The list is endless ,unless you are unable to consume the truth

Hey Belly, you need to check your facts. You're getting confused. The Barrier Reef money went to a charity registered and established in Australia with a very respectable board.

The Cayman Islands registered company was actually a parent company for the company that the government bought some water rights from in the Murray Darling Basin, partly at the recommendation of the Queensland Labor government.

The last is an increible smear. For some reason it suggests that the Commonwealth was conspiring to evade Australian tax legislation when all it was doing was buying water rights from someone who owned them. Originally the firm had been chaired by Angus Taylor, but he had no connection with it by this time.

Yet there is no allegation they paid too much, or that there were other sellers available at a lower price. Somehow the vendor's tax arrangements are key, even though no one asks a vendor to show them how much tax they pay. All you want is secure title.

The biggest corruption I can see in this country is the Labor Party and the unions, particularly the CFMMEU. This is a criminal organisation, yet Shorten is supporting them against the Building and Construction Commission. They are Labor's biggest donor. They own the government and have representation in their policy-making. The next government will be partly owned by criminals.

Paul,

It is posts like your last one that make people think that greens are retarded.

Firstly, while Towke was shafted by adverse news reporting, and in spite of neither you nor the SMH have providing even a smidgeon of evidence that Scott Morrison was involved, you are quite happy to defame him.

Secondly, the open and vicious character assassination of a sitting senator Jeremy Buckingham by so called comrades puts what happened to Towke in the shade.

Finally, in spite of Shorten having been caught red handed robbing workers for 30 pieces of silver, you, Foxy and SR think he craps gold.

SM,

I have not admired Mr Shorten in the past.
However, I was impressed by his appearance
on Q&A. I now feel that he does have the makings
of a good PM.

Mr Morrison on the other hand
seems to have little to offer apart from being
aggressive and totally out of touch with the
electorate. As for "crapping gold?"
I wrote on another thread - there's just not
enough toilet paper in the world to clean up
all this crap some people create.

pretty much on the mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLpE1Pa8vvI

Dear Shadow Minister,

What?

This is what I wrote in this very thread;

"Bill Shorten has done enough to win the PM job. I still have issues with the bloke but they are now well outweighed by what ScoMo and his bunch have become. I think there would probably half a dozen of those within the Labour party I would prefer above Shorten to be PM and to be truthful one or two of the Coalition would get a guernsey as well. But Morrison is well down the list."

Hardly a ringing endorsement is it.

But according to you because I'm prepared to rate him above Morrison I then apparently think he 'craps gold'?

I have repeatedly relayed my misgivings about Shorten on this forum and I still have them. I know it doesn't compare with your visceral hatred of Malcolm but that is all you are going to get.

Rah SR. We are well aware that the only person you think craps gold is you.

The rest of us, except for perhaps Belly realise the stuff you crap is Pyrite.

Dear Hasbeen,

Lol. Actually a good line from you for once.

Well crapping pyrite is a whole lot better than speaking shite which I'm afraid is your forte my friend.

But be that as it may old cock you do seem a little quieter than normal now that the neo-cons are no longer in the ascendancy. Dutton, Abbott etc running the very real risk of losing their seats.

Must be a very sobering time for you.

Hasbeen and Shadow,
How long will it take you to realise it's all just crap?

___________________________________________________________________________________

GrahamY,
Why the ridiculous claim that "there is no allegation they paid too much"? Plenty have alleged that, and indeed I am now. What they were buying was overland flow rights i.e. floodwater should a flood occur. And not only did they pay quite a high price for what was likely to (and AFAIK did) come to nothing, but the problem of too little water in the river probably wouldn't even need alleviating if floods occurred.

My my kids have hijacked the keyboard
This threads is about supposed evil acts from the leader of our next government
But hate, blind hate and mud throwing gets a run
Some one bet a million dollars on Labor today, see SMH, to win about just under a quarter million
Bleeding leftist out of control voters, how dare they
And during the autopsy, after the self inflicted defeat,You must turn on [Liberals ?
Small l Liberals who too reject your control of THEIR party

Thanks, Belly:

Snowflakes to the Right of us !

Snowflakes to the Left of us !

And all so offended by each other, poor dears.

Grow a pair, you fellas.

It may not be deformation, more like defecation, but it sure is sickening! The Liberal supporting Murdoch gutter press 'The Daily Telecrap' tried to smear Bill Shorten with dirt through his dead mother. How low can you go, after the whole disgusting crap backfired it was heartening to see Scott Morrison "distance" himself from the cowardly attack. Just another nail in the coffin for the government.

Maybe I am smug, but bet on it I am no mug, rather be compared to steely than the lost aged right
Offended by this thread, its raw effort to throw mud, I now love it
The smell of burning conservative flesh is refreshing
Even knowing other Liberals are doing some of the burning
A week ago England, shut down, forever, its last coal fired power station
Bleeding science!
We may pipe some of the heat from this debate over there if it gets cold
Sunday after next can hear the screams now, great fun

Paul1405, I should probably have said no one serious. Your knowledge of the price of water rights is zero, or pretty close to. I don't make any claims to know what water rights are worth either, but I could pretty quickly build a case one way or the other by quoting comparable sales, the value of which must be available. That no one has means the price is not seriously in dispute. It is just a mud-slinging exercise.

On Bill's mum. That's a classic attempt to milk a penalty. The paper criticised him for not properly acknowledging his mother's success and he turns around and says they are demeaning her. That's Bill for you. He will turn anything to his advantage, and loves to play the victim card.

And of course all the usual suspects will seek to milk it for him as well. It's a bit like soccer. They spend more time on the grass pretending to be injured than they do kicking the ball, and the crowd loves it.

GY morning, well aware your views are far different than mine
But are you aware most agree with Bill, it was a low blow from the gutter press
Still finding joy in the thread
It about the pain conservatives are feeling because of the coming defeat?
Dutton on the ABC gee he is still on song as he nears his last week and a bit in politics
Bill at least, on election night, tell us he will govern for all Australians
Unfortunately Morrison can not, after all he can not even unite his own party

There's nothing like a good old sob session to attract votes from the politically naive.

Left=lack of integrity, doesn't get any clearer than that !

The Daily Telegraph is a strongly biased
conservative tabloid published by National
News - part of News Corp. It's known for
being strongly biased through its story
selection, the language it uses and its
political affiliation.

Scott Morrison has made it quite clear that
his sympathies went to Bill Shorten because
families should be off-limits to the media.
He was right and gracious to have done that.

It is not unusual for Australian PMs and
MPs to cry both in and out of office.
The lists of not only Australian pollies who have
(from Malcolm Turnbull, Malcolm Fraser, Bob Hawke),
but overseas politicians are to numerous
to list here. Even Maggie Thatcher, Bill Clinton,
have been known to shed a tear.

We have come to accept outbursts of emotion from our
political leaders as displays of genuine human
feeling.

Dear Individual,

Politician=lack of integrity, doesn't get any clearer than that !

There is a much more serious matter pending.
Shortan stated that he would amend 18c to give it more strength in
particular against "hate speech".
Di Natali was videoed saying that he would bring in legislation against
hate speech by Alan Jones, Andrew Bolt, Kenny and two others who I
cannot remember to remove them from broadcasting. He made it clear
they would be banned by government action.

These comments are the most dangerous I have yet heard from a
politician in my lifetime.
They are blatant, specific in whom they are aimed at and what the
consequence of their application would be.
I am sure there are those here who do not like the named broadcasters,
but that is hardly the point.
It is a direct attack on freedom of speech and belief.
Evan at present it seems that your employer can exercise control over
what you say and do in your free time. You would have to be very
careful about what you write on this site.
I suggest you read Mark Latham's speech in the NSW Legislative assembly.
I believe it is at Mark Latham's Outsiders web site.

Dear Bazz,

You and other posters on this forum should read the
following link. It just may align your fears:

http://www.eurekastreet.com.au/article.hubris-and-hate-speech-in-mark-latham-s-nation

cont'd ...

My apologies for the typo.

Here's the link again:

http://www.eurekastreet.com.au/article/hubris-and-hate-speech-in-mark-latham-s-nation

It's worth a read.

Foxy no doubt I and maybe you, have become one of Grahams usual suspects
Nevertheless truth matters,to us at least
Do you know the daily smelly graph was once the Labor daily?
Then the Packers came along and made the comic book section go front frontpage to the back, inclusive
Mr America has refined it, no longer even in touch with truth it will get worse in the coming week
LOVE THE CLAIM WE ARE POLITICALLY NAIVE!
Same must apply to the just over half of voters about to vote this mob out
The thread deserves my saying sorry, got it wrong, yes it made unproven claims, yes again it made claims that have been investigated without any charges
BUT it did give us the opportunity to return serve, been fun
The walking SMIRK scomo, is in very real trouble, seems he may be blamed after the election
Who is their next leader? whisper is it is known within the ranks right now

Graham, nothing on water from me, confused with someone else. On Politicians, having met quite a few over the years, including several Prime Ministers. One thing I suspect of all the leaders, and that's from both sides, is that under the veneer of affability which they like to project to the general public, dwells a far more ruthless individual. Otherwise they would not achieve the paramount position they do. To reach the position of top dog over others just as ambitious as you, takes a degree of ruthlessness, guile, and at times down right nastiness, all in the name of success. Shorten has those qualities to succeed, and now and then despite the rigid attempts to hide them, they come out in Morrison. What was it Turnbull said when Morrison got the top job "I've been had!"

With politics being very much a popularity contest these days, to achieve that popularity it's sometimes necessary to project a false persona which resonates with the average Joe. That is the way of the beast. Its not wrong, and I dare say personally many politicians are likeable people, with good honest intentions, their mothers do love them.

My wife was a personal friend over many years of the NZ Prime Minister David Lange, and she claims that lovely persona he projected was in fact David Lange inside and out. Proves there is always an exception to every rule.

Dear Belly,

Most people I know don't have opinions that are
set in concrete. Data moves as we get more
information - our thoughts are not statues suspended
in time. The people I know use their brain - observing
the world and their immediate environment. They judge
people by their actions - not so much their words.

As I've told you previously - my husband and I have
already voted. Hopefully we've made the right choice.
Time will tell.

In our electorate a voter forum was held on climate change.
Liberal Party MP Kevin Andrews did not front voters to hear
their concerns.
Neither did two other Liberal Party candidates at a nearby
electorate. So much for listening to the concerns of
voters. Do these people really expect to be elected?
These days voters expect more from their MPs - than just
having them sit in Parliament and sleep while collecting
huge salaries.

Sorry Paul1405, it was Aidan. Not sure how I made that mistake. Apologies.

Hi Paul,

My mum lived in Helen Clark's electorate, Mount Albert, and she told me that if anyone wanted to talk to Ms Clark, they could ring her mobile number any time.

Joe

GrahamY,
Is the Murdoch Press the sole source of your information? It doesn't seem a likely scenario, but it's the only explanation I can think of for the absurd claim you're trying to double down on!

Try a better information source: http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/controversy-over-$80m-water-buyback-deal/11036382

Aidan, a strong case for a Federal ICAC to investigate this kind of deal, and clear up any possible wrong doing. This $80 million deal stinks to high heaven, it would never pass the pub test.

Dear Paul,

Here's another link for you on Bill Shorten's
mum and Mr Shorten's reaction:

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election-2019/why-this-was-the-most-compelling-moment-of-this-election-campaign-20190508-p51l9i.html

Of course Shorten was exploiting his mother'situation for his political abitions. Why else would he make such a show of it ? It'd appeal to the Lefties to no end !

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election-2019/morrison-s-big-problem-he-has-to-claim-everything-s-going-swimmingly-20190509-p51lqq.html
Can we all calm down?
Yes it must hurt super conservatives
It seems the election is in the bag for Labor
It must hurt true Liberals as well [there is a difference]
Knowing three seats, maybe more, are to be won by? other Liberals running as independents
Yes! I will until removed from this site! continue to return serve on the ultra right, trying desperately to convince themselves they are the Liberal party
TRUTH MATTERS
How do we? now tell me? paper over the open hate, some post here against anyone left of the right but terribly wrong big L Liberals?
After the election truth will get arun in that party as it fights for change, much needed change, just to survive

Individual,

Malcolm Turnbull - described himself as a "crybaby"
he cried on so many occasions - visibly upset about
the Port Arthur Massacre. Malcolm Fraser fought back
tears after losing the 1983 election. Julie Bishop
talked about Tony Abbott crying after he got the chop.
Bob Hawke wept over his daughter's drug addiction,
and the list goes on.

So as mentioned earlier it is not unusual for Australian
Prime Ministers and politicians to cry both in and out
of office. Most normal people have come to accept
outbursts of emotion from our male political leaders as
displays of genuine human feeling.

Your trying to make this political - says more about you
than it does about them.

Foxy my regards, that post/reply to indy was needed
But in the end no level headed clear minded person would not see it as foolish
It, from my point of view, looks like Morrison is doing more than his whole party
Maybe for the best some truly uninformed folk on what is left of his front bench
Many abandoned the ship before he called the election
Will he remain leader after defeat? on form maybe not

Of all the others there was a moral & personal good reason to get emotional, Shorten did for strategic reasons !

Individual,

No. Shorten did not do it for strategic reasons.
You need to read other sources then The Daily
Telegraph - which according to the Essential Report
is the least trusted newspaper in Australia.

Scott Morrison and other politicians also disagree
with your and very biased Daily Telegraph's actions
and take.

This link may help clarify things for you:

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election-2019/why-this-was-the-most-compelling-moment-of-this-election-campaign-20190508-p51l9i.html

Shorten is no cry baby he like me, like every true man, was upset at the awarful smear that used his mother
In the next week, and what is left of today smear will be used often
And that, in the end, is hugly funny
Informed voters, including a lifeboat full of front bench refugees know this is the end of a divided party
I highlight the link that started this thread and say if other links are unwanted why did this one get a run

Aidan, anyone can make claims like that. The piece is unbalanced - it doesn't have anyone defending the purchase - and it doesn't give examples, just makes generalised claims. That generally indicates the complaint lacks substance. Specifics indicate a case. Generalities indicate a smear.

You're always very keen to see faults in the Liberal government, and I think that blinds you to the truth. You also don't seem to be worried about proven corruption from organisations like the CFMMEU.

For balance here is a media release from the department http://www.agriculture.gov.au/about/media-centre/on-the-record/eastern-aus-ag-water-purchase.

upset at the awarful smear that used his mother
Belly,
I haven't actually seen any smear only that he failed to acknowledge his mother's achievements.
If that's a smear then we might as well give up altogether. As far as I could see he did that deliberately so he use it as cheap smear against people with more integrity.

GY that charge laid against Aiden can not be made against me
CFMEU are thugs and mugs
I stand forever against them
And others who like the childish thugs and mugs do *far more harm than good*
I however think, think, there is much more to come about that water sale, not price but who sold it who authorised it
Like a link that started this thread it getting asked is not a crime, wrong? maybe but who can say

Dear Belly,

The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age has learned
that official advice from Australia's top water
bureaucrats have stated that the class of water
bought by the federal government in the
controversial agreement should have been a last
resort option. There's quite a lot to this case that
needs examination and clearing up.

The current government has - in an effort to neutralise
the issue has asked the Auditor-General to examine
all water buybacks since 2008.

The following link explains further:

http://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/water-buyback-criticism-a-joke-says-company-at-centre-of-scandal-20190424-p51gu1.html

Well Foxy at least you read the news not constructed propaganda
Yes questions, many of them, will be asked after this election you can bank on it
And Governments links to Cayman Islands on many thing will be startling
Looking forward to tomorrow's Liberal campaign opening
But even more to Sunday after tomorrow

Thanks Diver Dan for the thread
In the end I was wrong, in airing it I learned much
And that includes a new tactic for dealing with the extreme right here
See we lefty's must, yes must, have the same rights you had on posting this
And too it provided evidence truth need not be a measure when talking of anyone
my regards

Belly.

Get off the band wagon of left and right...they are fallacious inventions of ideologues.

It's easy to see who the crooks are in life. What real evidence outside of behaviour patterns, do the Joe Blows of everyday land need?
It's how normal people navigate life.

When a judge sentences a homosexual priest to three months prison, for child sexual abuse over a twenty year span, and this man Shane Downing, to four months for objecting to the length of the sentence, we observe what could only be described as a supporter of pedophiles in the actions of the judge.
There stands the evidence! That's enough evidence for Mr and Mrs Everyman.

Dan

Shane Dowling, self-proclaimed journalist, and
a rogue blogger, was jailed for contempt of
court, for 4 months, after he breached
non-publication orders, in naming two
women accused of having affairs with network
Seven boss Tim Worner. The judge found that
Shane Dowling's conduct "borders on obsession."
He "flagrantly" and "ënthusiastically" breached
the non-publication orders in naming the women
on his website.

Too Foxy threats have been made against journalist who broke the ban on telling us Pell had been found guilty
I think freedom of the press is worth defending
Here we have some thing different, *unproven charges sold as fact*
Things said that the author and other commentators know have seen no charges laid after investigation
And, in my view, an overall panic response to the coming defeat of the government

Dear Belly,

Yes I agree freedom of the press is worth defending.
But we need to be selective in our choices of
who we support. Media ownership in Australia is
notoriously narrow. Mainstream media offers precious
little diversity and such diversity as there is
runs along predictable lines. It is difficult to
find outlets which are rational, principled
without being biased to any social or political
position.

Foxy in time the propaganda arm of a certain political movement will be held to account
It nearly was in England
The threads intent was to blacked a man, to say charges are true even if in some cases police said differently'
We are about to change government
Unless the next week is about LNP policy, not smeers it will be decisive
I doubt rage and anger will work just as raw bias never will

GrahamY,
I admit it was slightly unbalanced. Half hour current affairs shows generally don't try to balance each individual story; instead they do followups when needed. The ABC subsequently interviewed Barnaby Joyce (who tried to shift the blame onto Queensland's state Labor government) though that may have been on Lateline rather than 7:30

There seems to be a major discrepancy between your link and Foxy's as to whether the purchase actually resulted in any additional flows.

I don't think we've heard the last of this, though the investigation may have prevented it from becoming a significant election issue. What we can say, though, is that your original claim (that "there is no allegation they paid too much") is refuted.

Remember the huge focus on Abbott's past when he was PM? The comments on how he winked at someone? The long and the short of it is that Shorten history includes a lot of dirty deals and deeds and if Shorten becomes PM it is sure to be dredged up again and again.

It might be as if Craig Thompson was PM.

Again pure joy
SM you have delivered it and my thanks
IF Shorten has anything to hide, AND IF I knew about it, I would tell you right here right now
Read my post history, KNOW after the recent state election, lard heads in my party called for me to be sacked
Because of my leader in the sugar bag joke
Shorten is about to become our PM
He will be a good one, policy not personality should be our measure
Post election, the autopsy on the divided Liberal party will include this question
Did the play the man not the policy [Shorten by Morrison] help or hinder, in your defeat

Too many voters are influenced by personality rather than mentality & ability !
The original Labor doctrine has been poisoned & killed off in the Whitlam years.
No-one's actually bothered to restore it because they were too busy exploiting the weakening of the mentality of the party. The ALP is the outcome we have to live with today !

Belly,

This thread is not about Bill's personality or even all the people he has had to climb over to get to the top it is absolutely about his crooked behaviour in the past. That discussing Crooked Bill's salacious past is actively discouraged in the ALP is no surprise. That crooked bill's shady dealings are going to be dug up and put on display is clear.

Let's see how easy it is to legislate when your skeleton's are questioned every day.

SM sorry but this thread, in my view, is about a building still rage
A rage that the old tool fear and loathing is not stopping Labor
Have you, ever, highlighted something wrong on your side
indy, 43 years ago!And you still blame Whitlam?
ANY honest observer knows, Labor today is much further right than

Too that is the LNP worse problem, they too moved right
Todays ALP is further right than Frasers government was

ndividual,
What do yo think the original Labor doctrine was?
And is it something that would be worth having today?

Belly,

The coalition has tried to run a clean campaign and so far has succeeded even more so than Labor. However, if Labor wins and Shorten is fielding the questions, these past misdeeds are going to raised again and again, just as they were asked of Juliar when she was protecting Craig Thompson.

Labor has veered sharply to the left with policies that hark back to the 1970s.

Shadow, the unofficial journal of the Liberal Party the Murdoch gutter press tried to do a hatchet job on Shorten through his dead mother. One can only speculate if Morrison had an advanced copy, we'll never know. Then when the proverbial hit the fan, Morrison tried to "distance" himself from the whole sorry episode. Did you miss that one me old salt.

Heard today (ABC) that would-be President Morrison didn't bother to tell cabinet about his plan to socialise housing and meddle in the market, big government style. "That's normal", claimed Morrison.

So, there's one reason for the lies that become apparent only after an election. The boss shoots of his mouth to the public; goes back to cabinet; the cabinet says, "Nuh. Leave the socialism to the other mob now that we are back in".

Dear Shadow Minister,

To bloody right which is why they are getting put above the LNP on my paper.

This was the kind of thing that went on in the 70s. Whitlam introduced a universal health scheme with Medibank, Fraser canned it and it only got cemented later with Hawke as Medicare.

The Maternity Leave act of 1973 was gutted by Fraser in 1979 and has only really got back on its legs after 2011.

All these things turnout to be inevitable it is just the conservative side of politics hated them and so stymied where they could.

It is policies articulated by the opposition which strives to shore up the notion that we are an egalitarian nation. I for one welcome them and they certainly outweigh my dislike of Shorten which is no small matter in itself.

On the other hand:

The ALP and the Greens oppose growth in Australia via:

Hostility to the development of and eagerness to tax coal, gas and other resources, which are the nation’s most important exports

Determination to ensure the destructive substitution of high cost, unreliable wind and solar for low cost reliable coal for electricity generation

Measures that restrain the use of water for farming in Australia’s most important agricultural province, the Murray Darling, and in building new irrigation facilities and preventing land clearing in Queensland.

Why would anyone want to vote for either party.

SM admire your standing by your sinking ship
However run a clean campaign?
Funny
As we prepare for Saturday night, the warm coffee, Anthony Green, even if he is constantly interrupted by the panel
We know the result, knew it 12 months ago
Australia has grown weary of a stale government at war with itself
My focus will be on those seats that see small l Liberals trying to beat the big Ls

ttbn, some of us have noticed the economics have changed; coal is no longer the cheap option, and renewables no longer the expensive option. Nor are our coal fired generators reliable, as Victoria discovered earlier this year.

We don't have enough rain for unrestricted irrigation in the Murray Darling Basin.

We will probably always export a lot of minerals, but for environmental reasons we're better off leaving the coal in the ground. I don't know why you have so little confidence in Australia's industry that you don't think we could export other things instead.

___________________________________________________________________________________

GrahamY

Regarding your other points:
>You're always very keen to see faults in the Liberal government, and I think that blinds you to the truth.
How, exactly, do you think it blinds me to the truth? Apart from that water deal (which seems to me to be poor value no matter which party signs off on it) do you think I've made any invalid criticism of the government , and if so, what?

>You also don't seem to be worried about proven corruption from organisations like the CFMMEU.
Corruption is a serious problem that must be dealt with, and I'm in favour of a federal ICAC to do so. What I'm not worried about are accusations that Shorten's involved in any corruption. This was thoroughly investigated and he was cleared.

Aiden I long ago learned we can not change others biases, in fact we have our own
Facebook this morning, Two parties, Palmer and someone else, are paying $28 an hour, four hour shifts, to hand out how to vote
SMH story has it that senator asking Liberals to vote below the line, is said to be poaching Abbotts HTV workers
Just think!
IF one side was always right! always!
Lets make a deal [not likely here but pretend] say the voters will get it right on Saturday, they always do you know
SUNDAY! it starts! the anti GILLARD like hate and undermine Labor, better spending the time asking why Australia rejected them, but it will be thus

SR

The difference between a socialist and a conservative is that a socialist is enamoured by Whitlam's social engineering whilst the conservative sees his monumental cock up of the economy.

Belly,

As for the sinking ship, as the election grows closer the coalition's primary vote climbs and Labor's sinks. The chances of Labor getting a majority in its own right is fading, and the chances of a hostile senate are increasing.

Shadow Minister mate, read a real newspaper, one that does not run polls knowing it is not true
Get ready for disappointment
Find new ways to blame voters, unions, lefty greens, small l Liberals because defeat can not be avoided
Still you can continue to dump on the new government while ignoring the state of war within the Liberal party

Belly,

I read several newspapers, but the gold standard of polls has been Newspoll for several decades, that other polls such as essential poll are saying roughly the same thing should give you food for thought.

As for dumping on a labor government, no doubt if they get in there will be plenty of opportunities to mock their cock ups

Now hear this folks. SHADOW MINISTER is tipping a COALITION victory on Saturday. Rupert has told him so, and Shadow believes every word Rupert tells him.

//and the chances of a hostile senate are increasing.// What a nonse, Shadow my dear boy, they are not increasing, its a mathematical fact. You being a political newbee not understanding the landscape of Australian politics, you would make ill-informed statements like that. Neither Labor or the Coalition will have an absolute majority in the Senate after Saturday. The Labor government will have to deal with the cross bench, no matter what. Of course the Coalition will be counting on the votes of the extremists Hanson, Palmer and Bernardi, should they get up.

Now hear this folks. PAUL 1405 is talking through his backside again.

If you read my posts I never tipped a coalition victory, but with several polls showing that Labor's primary vote is 37% or lower, the chances of Labor getting a simple majority in either house is slipping. This means that if Labor cobbles together a minority government it will be relying on extremist parties such as the greens, and all of us remember the monumental cock up that this was the last time.

SM we will see, right now it could turn, we could get another three years of failure
Such things happen, and yes I am nervous, indeed know if we win the Rupert stable will unleash hell, on my government
BIAS? considered thought, researched considered thought is not bias
It can be wrong, but it is not bias
Saturday will mark a turn in politics not just here, America, although it may take a while, will move back to the center.
Center? yes even a Labor government knows it dare not let the boats restart, it dare not over spend, it must, must, regain the trust of those currently turning to a right that is lost in a world that never existed

Poll wrap: Labor maintains 51 - 49 Newspoll lead,
plus many seat polls.

Morgan poll 52 -48 to Labor.

Polls have been pretty much the same since the last election, and they are so regular in appearance that's its easy to wonder if they are actually being conducted - not just reprinted.

Polls have been seriously wrong in the past. Anything short of a Donald Trump shock can happen when people vote in Australia.

My tip is: after Saturday, we will have a Liberal or Labor government, with little to be positive about no matter which one it is.

Questioning the polls honesty is clutching at straws surely
We will on Saturday night, see how right they are
Foxy those number seem right
But in some seats it is near 54/46