For months I have read postings on this forum constantly linking to a site for Halal Kind Meats and touting it as the answer to live exports.

Seems to me that Halal is sending our own standards backwards and has been allowing ritual killing of animals to happen here in this country.
http://www.farmonline.com.au/news_daily.asp?ag_id=44263

I suppose it was just ignorance and wanting to believe that Halal did have the welfare of the animal uppermost in mind, but cutting the throats of animals and just letting them bleed to death? Isnt that one of the reasons people fight live exports? They dont want animals to suffer those barbaric practices? Well, here it is right on our own doorstep.

Why do they want animals conscious during slaugher anyway? Its just plain cruel.

you're right, pf. in fact, i'm against cruelty to any animal, so let's outlaw dogfights, cock fights, and rugby, league, and afl.

soccer can continue, but players must wear cricket leg protectors.

cricket can continue, but only underarm bowling- headstrikes do little harm to those brains, but there is a chance of eye injury.

tennis to be replaced by beach volleyball.

and most important, cars to be limited to 40k top speed.

I agree with you on this one PF, although I gather that this one
is not just about Halal, but Kosher for the Jewish market as well.

Its also what I have been saying all along. There is plenty of
animal welfare stuff happening right here in Australia that
we should be looking at, before we take the high and mighty
approach that many so called animal welfare groups have taken
on here. ie. The notion that we are so sophisticated and
they are all barbarians in the Middle East. Its simply
not as black and white as that.

But then every animal welfare group that I can think of is
rattling the money tin on their website. They need easy,
catchy, slogans to do it with. "Ban Live Sheep" is exactly
that. Push peoples emotional buttons with much misinformation
and money flows in. Its just not that black and white in the
real world.

The fact that it is ritualised is irrelevant. If it is done right, slitting an animal's throat isn't necessarily a bad way to kill it.

Where do these people come from?? Any one who thinks it is ok to have your throat slit and left to bleed to death is ok ,in the name of ....whatever,be it animal ,human and or soccer players have sick minds!!
Get these cults out of Australia now!

Is anyone here privy to the exact slaughter process of the slice of rump steak you buy out of woolies?
How is this most humane?

Thank you, PF for this thread- I'm feeling quite ignorant because I didn't even realise that slaughter without stunning the animals first was still happening in Australian abattoirs.

I thought that Muslims agreed with stunning before slaughter. So why is this happening?

It's very cruel practice and for no reason at all, ritual or not, should cutting throats of conscious animals be allowed in abattoirs in this country.

People who say that it is not cruel should really get some more information about it.

This APPEARS to be another cheap shot. Freediver was spot on. The average hunter slits throats the finish off game. It doesn't take long, and if you think the way Christian based society (which is your argument) do it is perfect and it's not stressful..."tell em he's dreaming".

No StG, this has nothing to do with ‘christian based society’. Why should our animal welfare standards be diminished in the name of any religion? What would you prefer, to die slowly in agony while you bleed to death, or bleed to death and know nothing of it? What reason is there for wanting these animals to be fully aware of the fact that they are dying?

“The average hunter slits throats the finish off game. It doesn't take long” Just how long was the animal suffering before this compassionate hunter even got to this stage StG?

My point is, we had procedures in place at abattiors to minimize the stress that an animal has to go through at slaughter, why should any of that be changed for the benefit of religious beliefs? I am not saying it was a perfect method but it is certainly better than what is happening to these poor animals in the name of same deity or custom.

The meat that we buy from Woolies is slaughtered in a very similar manner. The animal is stunned by an electric shock or a captive bolt...it is unconscious so does not feel any pain when it is actually slaughtered. It is hoisted then its throat is cut, the throat is cut so the blood is able to drain completely out of the carcass(exsanguination). The Muslim and jewish cultures believe that stunning the sheep hinders maximum bleed out....

If the blood is not drained completely from the carcass the quality of the meat can decline, it also affects the colour and taste so it is the only method for the correct slaughtering of an animal for meat consumption - the conventional method of 'stunning'before the slitting of its throat is obviously the more humane.

and I forgot to add....if the throat is cut correctly the animal should be dead within 15 secs.

Izzo,

Is it true that many animals get through the stun process and come out still conscious on the other side?

Just curious as I'm not overly concerned about the Halal style. I could be wrong, but I'm under the impression that keeping animal stress as low as possible is also part of Halal butchery.

The fact that America is allowed to export beef to Australia regardless of mad cow disease bothers me far more.

I have no problem with Halal killing if it’s how they want to do it. I would object strongly if Halal was imposed on the rest of us.
I was disturbed last week by a report on John Laws talkback radio that women walking past a mosque were abused for not being covered up. This if true is totally unacceptable to me. The gradual creation of no go areas in South West Sydney is totally abhorrent.

Chainsmoker,
If the slaughtering is left too long than yes the animal can regain consciousness but if the throat is cut it will obviously never recover. As you say the animal is supposed to be calm and not stressed when slaughtering - which is impossible as the animal would be incredibly stressed already as it has travelled to the abbatoirs in a truck, sat in a treeless yard for a day and then mustered into the slaughterhouse with hundreds of other sheep.

In my opinion the only humane way to kill a sheep is in conjunction with the captive bolt. If the slaughterman are not trained it is very easy to botch. To do the Halal method correctly you are not allowed to severe the spinal cord which can create some problems ....and it is not easy to actually cut through neck tendons and vessels in one fowl swoop...

I once watched a relative drain a few litres of blood from a horse. All it took was a neat little nick at the neck. Not sure what was done to the horse, but it stood there peacefully throughout the whole process, which took considerable time.

Can I suggest that before you start this misinformation campaign against evil cults undermining our society, you first confirm that halal killers are actually cruel to the animals? I've killed plenty in my time by snapping the neck, bleeding, iki jimi and a blow to the head. No method is perfect.

SILLE
In the meat industry we are already unknowingly eating meat that has been killed in a manner required by the muslim and jewish religion. When the animals are killed for these cultures some carcasses are checked to make sure the cut in the throat was done correctly - if it wasnt the carcass is either discarded or put through the mainstream markets - so, the next leg of lamb you buy could of easily been slaughted in the name of Allah!....food for thought! (pardon the intended pun!)

Do you go fishing PF?. We are all fairly comfortable with fish suffocating or getting their heads partially caved in. Far worse way to die than getting your throat slit. Wouldn't you say, PF?.

StG, why is it wrong to opt for the kindest form of slaughtering possible?

It is not true that stunned animals do not bleed thoroughly- the stunning just knocks them out for 20 or so seconds but heart and breathing never stop.

There surely must be scientific evidence available to show that there is no difference in bleeding between stunned and conscious animals.

But what if a Muslim guy were to go fishing? Who know what odd things he might say while throwing the fish into the esky.

Celivia, nothing wrong with that. But do you know what the kindest form is? What makes you think stunning them as well reduces the overall pain? Do you have any experience in this area?

A bullet between the eyes is the most humane. I'm all for that. Should we do everything we can to hurt the meat industry even more?...no. I find it fascinating that many of the people who moan about one thing or another won't put their money where their mouths are and subsidise farmers out of their own pocket. Form your own charity for animals destined for 'ritual' slaughter and buy them off the farmers. Don't buy meat. Don't eat fish. Don't buy chicken which live in the worst possible conditions. Think about the last few minutes of the meat you just ate for dinner. Why is it that 'they' do things less civilized than 'us' everytime?. Come up solutions, instead of more problems.

Hello Everyone.

Sorry I did not see this thread before.
It would be fair to say PF would have a better idea than most about which is the kindest way to slaughter any animals.

Firstly I must explain that Muslims refuse the stun gun because they beleive the scull must not be damaged or broken and must be perfect for Allah.
There are other issues with the blood being fully drained.
I am pleased to see so many comments on this thread.

I am a bit curious however just what the Federal Government are up to here.
Dont get me wrong I am also pleased that they are taking a stand- So long as they DO overide the States and start to take Animal Welfare seriously.
Anational FEDERAL Law is required for all abattoirs in Australia.
There has LONG been a problem with the States not taking Animal Welfare seriously.
As Yabby and PF will tell you the Federal Government through AQIS DO have pre stunning requirements but not so the States.

Especially the domestic plants throughout Australia. Kosha IS the most cruel of all.
To Answer you question PF I am waiting on a reply from AFIC regarding what stand they are going to make regarding this.
If they do not take a leadership role and do the right thing by the Animals I will not contiune to work with them.

I WILL be informing you all of their reply. In the mean time-

I am asking our Prime Mininster this Question.
Dear Prime Minister- Thank you for launching this enquiry into our cruel State laws mostly under labour- However will you now ban live Exports considering you KNOW the treatment at the other end is unexceptable because these poor animals are NOT stunned there either?

In the mean time does anybody remember Jolandas thread about all the local shops suddenly selling Halal.
Food for thought.
AFIC our MOU was to improve Animal Welfare.
This is your oportunity . I await your reply.

Original Message
From: Halalkindmeats
To: George Czaus ; AICOL ; ikebal.
Cc: wendy.lewthwaite@bigpond.com
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: Meeting Gold Coast

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/religious-ritual-slaughter-faces-review/2007/08/03/1185648153115.html

Hello Ikebal
As The Muslim Leaders of Australia what are you doing about the above please?
Are you prepaired to go public with a Media R denouncing such treatment of Animals?
I have been contacted by the Media for comment on the above story.

I am speaking with several in the next few weeks including 60 Minutes.

Please inform us as to you position on this as a matter or urgency given our public stand of support to AFIC as you know we are a Animal Welfare Organisation.
A Simply Yes or No Please Ikebal.
The offer of the plant in QLD is still on the table so that could be used as a much needed oportunity to improve the public image of Muslim members of Australia to work to improve Animal Welfare and to be involved in assisting our Aboriginal People in Regional Areas.
If you dont mind me saying Ikabel as we discussed at our last meeting the image of Muslims in general in Australia requires that Muslim Leaders are seen working together with other Australian People and Authorities.
This is a unique oportunity for AFIC to lead the way in Animal Welfare and set an example of leadsership to show they are working as one.
Please reply asap.
Also Can you send me Amjads new mobile number please as you suggested I contact him.
Regards
Wendy

Original Message
From: <ikebal.patel@
To: "Halalkindmeats" <info@halakindmeats.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: Meeting Gold Coast



regards
Ikebal

Yabby.
It is black and white. Slaughter here and use a bolt gun or stun gun.. Thats the most kind way. Here is one Animal Group that is not always rattling the tin. Where would the animals be without Animal Loving people who form these groups?

Feed driver- Why dont you try it?

Patrica Thanks for sticking up for common decency to Animals.

Goddess- Woollies normally buy through Aussie plants that use the bolt method. That is by far the kinder. There is however going to be a push to supply halal for domestic.

Celivia. Good to see somebody with so much sense of fair play involved in this thread.

STG- Your wrong. It is cruel.

Izzo yes of course we must pre stun with a bolt.
chainsmoker. Mad cow comes from Intensive Farming. Australia is growing more and more feed lots. What does that tell you.
Sillie. I will reply to you in a seperate post.

WHERE THE AVA_ AUSTRALIAN VETINARY ASSOCIATION??
How about standing up for the Animals you swore your alligence to.

Will the Minister For Agriculture and the Prime Minister Please disclose the MOU signed by him with Brunie two years ago to launch a new Halal Brand In Australia and diclose if this brand is exempt from pre stunning?

What other arrangments and MOUs have been signed[ or are being signed with other countries such as Brunie Malaysia to allow the pre stunning to be removed?[ If Any]

What meetings have been held in the last few months to discuss Halal Accreditations and Slaughter?
Be warned if your :"review"? finds its ok for Animals NOT to be pre stunned you WILL have the whole of the Australian and the world public come down on you.
Enough is Enough.
Australia has a wonderful oportunity to become the largest exporter of CHILLED meat in the world.
I suggest you find someone with compashion and good business sense.
We will NOT stand by and see Australia turned into a third world country.
Go ahead and have your review but remember the eyes of the world are watching .

Do not talk for me pale, I can make a fool of my self.
For century's these folk have killed their food this way.
And in truth we often kill in far worse ways.
Have you seen the fear in the eyes of cattle standing in line waiting to die?
I will never except Muslims telling me how to live, and I will never tell them, EVER to change a basic of the religion they live by.
If we stop eating meat one day we may find some one telling us how to humanly kill a lettuce.

Belly ~ Spot on.

What we need as a modern country is a political party for the animals that will look after animal rights and make changes to the animal laws.
The wold's first Party for the Animals (PvdD)is located in the Netherlands, with four seats.
They have made many changes already and usually their ideas are backed up by one of the parties in the coalition, especially the Labor Party.

They now have banned a main supermarket from selling meat that has been slaughtered without a stun gun and are promoting the use of a friendlier method: gas, to knock the animals out before slaughter, which won't damage the skull.

Also, because they can't boycot imported meat, there are black stickers on all meat packages of imported meat of animals that haven't been raised or slaughtered in a humane manner.

There are now also special supermarkets that have banned all animal unfriendly produce- one would find only free range produce there.

They also had a big influence on all private health funds vegetarians get a discount.
http://blog.peta.org/archives/2007/04/the_dutch_conti.php

Freedriver, I have no personal experience on slaughtering methods, I listen to the experts.

"A bullet between the eyes is the most humane.

It's not very practical. Except maybe if you're out in the middle of a field. It doesn't always work as effectively as you would expect.

"It would be fair to say PF would have a better idea than most about which is the kindest way to slaughter any animals.

Why? Because you agree with her?

"Feed driver- Why dont you try it?

Try what?

"Freedriver, I have no personal experience on slaughtering methods, I listen to the experts.

If you listen to the experts, why are you quoting peta?

"It is black and white"

Pale, your passions and emotions might be black and white,
but clearly the facts are not!

What we have at this point, is some meatworks in both the
Middle East and Australia, using stun guns, some not.

What we also have is some first class boats, with new
and better ones coming on stream, then some old biddies.

Some of those newer boats have far better conditions then
most feedlots in Australia.

So its a case by case issue, not black and white, as
you feel.

My family and I are meat producers - we mainly trade in fat lambs of which we breed ourselves.

A common misunderstanding is that alot of people think that it is the Australian producers that created the live export industry where in fact it was demanded by the market. In other words certain countries prefer the animals to be live on delivery so they are able to slaughter them in accordance to their religious beliefs. It would be far more humane for the animals to be slaughtered here than have to be shipped over on a boat...if the slaughterman is trained properly the animal is least likely to feel pain using the Halal method so makes s\more sense to encourage responsible training of the slaughtermen I would think - unless the animal rights movements think they can change the Muslim beliefs....cause you will never stop the export of sheep or cattle - dead or alive.

This is typical of the animal rights movements once again farmer bashing without any consideration for the industry whatso ever....bit like the mulesing issue. I would hate to think what they thought of a sheep with half its body eaten away from maggots because it wasnt mulesed.

PALE
do you really believe that all farmers are unbelievably cruel and really enjoy hurting the animals which provide them and their family with an income. If you really knew the people within the industry you would realise that the large majority treat their animals with respect because if they are neglected at all they wont thrive, grow and produce quality wool or fatten for market.

BTW, we kill our own meat. My husband shoots them in the head in the paddock,(he doesnt get them into the yards because he believes the sheep get too stressed and affects the taste of the meat) cuts its throat straight away, hangs it then skins it, removes the internal organs etc, leaves it overnight than butchers it at dawn. YUM!

Celivia....how on earth does this "political party" in the Netherlands police the "raised humanely" bit? Sheep can be bought and sold several times over before it gets to the dinner table, how on earth would they know?

Sounds as ridiculous as the "organic grain" many of you probably buy and pay top dollar for. Next time you fork out your big dollars for "organic" think about this: we have a neighbour who grows grain for the organic and mainstream food industry....and guess what the difference in the production is - NOTHING. It is all sprayed with chemicals, planted with fertilizer, harvested by the same header and transported in the same truck. There are no pre-requisits, no checks, no testing - nothing...the mill he sells it to divides it and sells half as organic and half as normal....why isnt there any checks etc you may ask? because it would cost a fortune and the end consumer wouldnt pay what the inevitable price would be.

PF

It's hard to believe you are criticising only the Halal method of slaughter (though inhumane) when you fail to allude to the heinous practices of our very own industry in Australia.

In fairness to the posters on this thread you should also inform them of our "civilised" methods where we use the poison 1080 to kill feral animals. Some take days to die in agony.

Then perhaps you should alert them to the ignominious practice of intensive pig farming where sows are incarcerated in cages so tiny that to feed its young, the nipples must protrude through the cage rungs.

You and I have debated previously, the Australian method of sterilising cattle. Shove your hand up the cow's back-end and slice her ovaries off to drop in her belly before sending her packing - no anaesethic!

Of course we have the issue of battery hen farms - totally gruesome, the practice of debeaking, and the ongoing mulesing of sheep without anaesethics. Then we have the castration practices - again - no anaesethics!

I commend you for alerting readers to the inhumane practices of other cultures. However, I believe, that you as a farmer, also have an obligation to thoroughly alert readers to our own inhumane treatment of other species in this "civilised" nation.

You know: "People in glass houses.................!

Yes dickie we have HAD that conversation before no point rehashing all that now is there. This is not another veggie argument.

People in glass houses dickie? You presume way too much.

They point here is whether or not we should lower our animal welfare standards in the name of religion. Yes I am a farmer and send animals to slaughter every week at a licensed abattoir that stuns my animals before they are slaughtered. Yes I have followed them through the line and watched it happen to assure myself that it is the most humane method possible.

Apart from whether or not you believe it is ok to let the animal just bleed to death while conscious, what sort of struggle would have to go on before these animals were even stuck? Do we start slashing their tendons to control them? How much extra stress are you prepared to put on these animals? And all in the name of Allah? The meat quality must be awful.

So dickie, what is your stand on this, you don’t actually say you seem more interested in condemning me personally.

PF

I have never condemned you personally, though it is hard to convince you of that.

I am well aware that you treat your animals as humanely as possible though you and other opponents on animal welfare threads seem intent in turning debates into a bun fight.

Obviously you didn't pick up on my post where I alluded to the Halal method of killing as "inhumane." However, I am more familiar with the cruel treatments perpetrated by Australians on Australian animals.

Therefore, I remain firm - we must endeavour to clean up our back yard first whilst remaining vigilant of the cultural practices of some countries who want to continue them here. That also includes the practice of cock fighting. Similar to our industries in Australia and our scyophantic governments, they appear oblivious or indifferent to the inhumane practices in which they engage!

Actually there isn't a great deal of difference. We commit acts of barbarity on other species for maximum profit - middle easterners commit them in the name of religion!

Freediver wrote ~

""A bullet between the eyes is the most humane."

It's not very practical. Except maybe if you're out in the middle of a field. It doesn't always work as effectively as you would expect."

I wasn't suggesting that as a solution. I was saying that IS the most humane (if done by a professional), but obviously not the most practical in the slaughter house

Izzo I thought it was illegal to slaughter meat at home (ie without a licence etc), or is just for personal consumption?

StG, practical restrictions will always limit what is done. A bullet does not necessarily eliminate suffering. Who knows how long bits of the brain live on, experiencing pain etc? It would be far more humane for example to blow the head of entirely with an explosive that completely mashes the brain. Not practical however. Then there's lethal injection, which takes a bit longer but may also involve less pain. The whole problem is that there is no objective way to measure pain. And is pain the only thing that matters? What about stress? If you could save the animal a lot of stress with a bit more pain, would it be worth it?

Hello Everyone.
Yabbs first. Yabby the position of Australian Muslim Leaders in regards to live exports remains unchanged. They have reported time and time again there is no reason why Australia can not be the hub of Halal meat world wide. They are opposed to long unnessary hauls and prefer all Animals to live a good life before Slaughter.
That marries with the other 96 percent of Australian People.
So that much is black and white.

The [now] position of AFIC is that there is no proof one is kinder than the other- [ bolt stun slit throat].
This is of a great dissapointment to us and some what of a surprise.
There is preshure from other countries not to pre stun.Of course the almighty dollar does come into it.
This debate is about the use of pre stunning.

Celivia Thank You for your informative post. There is a very special Vet working in the Neverlands who has with the help of others done much. Of course we need AnimalWelfare reps in Parliment.

Belly Your post is not rational stg - same.
Feeddriver - Why Do you agree with PF- because she is correct.

Izzo We work with many good farmers. What you posted is untrue.
Dickie Your comments are always welcome and your efforts to improve animal welfare over along period of time are noted.
However PF is absolutly correct. There has been FEW farmers that have consistly posted on threads to improve Animal Welfare.- Too Few.
She is a good example of what all farmers should be.

We are of course to now consider our position. It was a huge step foward to work with Muslim leaders regarding live exports.
However I cant say I agree with no pre stunning.
We are discussing this with AFIC.
I think its time we all turned our eyes to the AVA.
Australian Vetinary Association.
It is worth mentioning that some people really honesty think slitting the throat quickly is kinder.

How say the AVA?. I think Dr Wirth of the RSPCA has made it clear for years he does not agree.

"There is a very special Vet working in the Neverlands who has with the help of others done much.

We prefer to work in the real world.

"The [now] position of AFIC is that there is no proof one is kinder than the other- [ bolt stun slit throat].
This is of a great dissapointment to us and some what of a surprise.

Why is it a surprise? How would you prove anything about pain?

"However PF is absolutly correct. There has been FEW farmers that have consistly posted on threads to improve Animal Welfare.- Too Few.

Maybe they are too busy being farmers and can't wait half an hour for the page to load.

Pale, what Australian Muslim leaders think, really does not matter.
96% of the Australian people don't have the foggiest about the
live trade, neither is it an election issue. The buyers matter,
they are Muslims. The animals matter. The farmers matter, they
own the livestock and should be paid a fair price for them.

Things are so bad in the local meat industry at the present time,
that when one company tried to upgrade some plant, they bought
it from a Thailand manufacturer, which included installation.

When the specialists applied for 457 visas, so they could come
and install the equipment, Mr Andrew's Dept rejected them.
So that gear is sitting in the yard, unistalled, doing nothing.

I'm starting to wonder if the Immigration Dept has some meat
industry hating veggies in there somewhere.

Yabby

Umm, Now there`s food for thought- Funny as. Are you talking about the plant in WA? I thought that had been approved.

I think you may find its their GATS "protection plan." Its protect the trade dollar all costs".


The only time I got a three page letter from Mark Vailes office was five years ago.
It went into great detail to tell me there would never be staff for abattoirs allowed through the GATS.
Considering its the only trade other than prostituion not allowed to engage staff that way one can only think its to protect their buddies in the live trade.
As for the no pre stunning that is something that JAKIM will have to address.

They should remember this- there is always somebody trying to take over any business. Meats no different.


You talk to any old meat worker and he will tell you its all cruel but he will pick the bolt over the stun gun anyday.

The stun gun was a comprimise which works pretty well most of the time.
Muslims have approved the use of stun guns so why go back to the dark ages.
I should think the AVA would have little difficulty to show that but as they are paid by the Government I guess we had get our own few thousand vets to disclose the kindest method.
AFIC are now saying there is no proof its more cruel than the stun gun.
I think they are going to have to show that. What a pity. There was a huge oportunity for Australia to become the hub of Halal to the expense of the live trade.


Antje and I went to the shopping center the other day. All of the food outlets were Halal. Its time the Government passed a law for everybody to disclose what the product is.

Some people might like to only buy from Australian Slaughtered methods.

I think its their right to know.


Not happy Jan!

PALE – I hope you don’t believe for one minute that halal is available from so many outlets because retailers believe it is a humane method of slaughter? No, most of those retailers are simply trying to cash in on halal and draw in more customers and probably charge a premium for the meat as well. For those that have been ignorant enough to believe that halal was in the interest of the welfare of the animal, the truth is now being revealed and it remains to be seen how many of those retails take halal off the shelves scared of consumer back lash.

Freedriver,
I agree that Peta are a bunch of extremists, as are a few other animal organisations. That doesn’t mean they are always wrong; sometimes they can provide good information or encourage people to do the right thing.
For example, Animals Australia says that killing animals without stunning is illegal under federal laws and encourage people to send emails to the ministers who can help stop this cruelty. http://www.animalsaustralia.org/features/time_to_get_angry.php

I do not belong to any group because I usually do not agree with all of the policies of a particular group, but I do like some of the things that some of the groups have to say.

If AVA does not do anything about this cruelty, I wonder what all the vets who are not AVA members think about this and whether they can do something.

Izzo,
“how on earth does this "political party" in the Netherlands police the "raised humanely" bit? ” I think they are just anti-intensive/battery farming and pro-free range. Not sure of the exact date, but around 2010 there won’t be any caged chickens allowed throughout the countries of the UN, and the rules for transport of live animals have changed also, e.g. no more than 9 hours traveling and buyers must buy from the nearest producer. I am not sure of the way this is going to be policed. In circumstances where the distance are greater than 9 hours travel, the animals need an overnight break and be able to graze somewhere before they continue their journey. In that case, I think that they need to sign in and out of the overnight place. Sorry I do not have more knowledge about it, I just remember bits and pieces from randomly reading little news releases from the Party for the Animals.

PALE,
is there a website of that vet? Just interested to look at it and what they have done.

"For example, Animals Australia says that killing animals without stunning is illegal under federal laws

Is this meant to be an example of 'good' information?

PALEIF: "In the mean time does anybody remember Jolandas thread about all the local shops suddenly selling Halal."

Yes, that was hilarious. As I recall, it descended into some preposterous claims about people being secretly fed another religion, humanely killed donuts, or some other such nonsense.

Freediver,
"Is this meant to be an example of 'good' information? "

Why, do you have information that contradicts this? I'd be interested to know if you can post a link.

If it's a fact that killing without stunning is illegal, then yes I would call facts good information.
What would you call it- false information?

I kill animals all the time without stunning them. I know plenty of other people that do also, across a wide variety of animals. I seriously doubt that that is the law.

Good Evening everyone.
Firstly reply to PF.

PF said
– :"I hope you don’t believe for one minute that Halal is available from so many outlets because retailers believe it is a humane method of slaughter?"

PALE replies . No its because its in demand.
Halal isnt a choice if you are a Muslim.
They actually believe its a "crime to eat meat not slaughtered in Halal fashion".[ Haram]unlawful. It is something instilled in you and your family before for thousands of years.
I cant even think of a crime by comparison in our daily laws- because we are free to choose and eat as we want.
They are not. It has nothing to do with Animal Welfare. If its not blessed by Allah you may "not" eat it.
You dont even think about it.

PF said-
No, most of those retailers are simply trying to cash in on Halal and draw in more customers and probably charge a premium for the meat as well.

PALE replies- No thats not it either. Halal is in short supply and very much in demand. Muslims sell Halal and its not possible to have a bit of both[ especially side by side]

That would be a sin in the eyes of Allah.You may not use any cooking products or that are not Halal either- In anything. You MUST look for a Halal fast food shop or restuant if you want to eat out.
If you put it like that its a ready made market really and one must consider if nothing else Mohamed must have been a clever business man.
Next time your out take a moment to observe people walking up to the store and looking for the Halal certification certificate on the wall before they order.
Just think if the Catholics had throught to make a pilgrimage to the Church in Sydney once a year.
I am not trying to offend anybody. I know from personal experience that many Muslim people are good hard working people who have overcome impossible odds to make a new home for themselves in the West.

Celiva

Cetainly. I will put up a couple of links next post. I had them but I have a problem with my computer right now.
We enjoyed your informative posts.

Feedriver. Yes of course its good information. The public need to know what is and isnt legal. Of course the next question the public will ask is\
- Well if its illegal who is turning a Blind Eye- and Why?

Morgan- There was nothing wrong with Jolandas thread except she had difficulty expressing her feelings.
She was saying she had a right to know if a product was slaughtered and marketed by any religious demands. She wanted to be informed and given a choice.
It was more about her rights than animal welfare however the message was the same.

Feedriver. I take it you are in the country.
Do you slaughter your own sheep and beef.
What do you think is the kindest manner?

What I do know is if the Government give approval to Muslim abattoirs not to pre stun then as Halal is advertised on the wall "all food outlets must be"!.
People have a "right' to know what they are buying and eating.
Its as simple as that.
Every single product must be labelled and every food outlet must be clearly signed.
There are thirteen Islamic Councils in Australia. Leaders come and go. Eventually it will be the young Muslims that want to move forward and they will insist on pre stunning.
I should think they will get a lot of support from many of the ordinary Australians and all of the Animal Welfare groups.
In the long run I dont feel this is a smart move.

Dr Wirth of RSPCA has already said it is not exceptable and they were lied to. JAKIM were quiet happy to look at gas stunning but somebody decided to take the easy road.
The old saying- The easiest way in the begining is the hardest way in the end.
Or perhaps- United we stand.
Divided we fall.

The thing I am worried about is that Australians once more will blame the Muslims or Jews for this practice of unstunned slaughtering, while the government is to blame for its appalling animal laws and not taking a firm stand.

Australia is “supposed to be” a secular country, but seems to be fine with having religion (Christianity as wel as Islam) all too often interfere with the freedom and rights of both animals and people.

As I have learnt in past animal discussions: animal laws have not been updated in the last century. Correct me if I’m wrong- nothing was done in the past 100 or so years!

I hope that some day animal rights will become an election issue, that Australia will follow some EU countries who obviously are more evolved in this area rather than the USA.

Ironic, isn’t it, that the more secular countries treat animals more respectfully than the so-called Christian (or religious-leaning) countries!

Celiva
Wendy asked me to post these links for you.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=ethical+vet+andrew+knight+&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU

I agree the Government is to blame.
What their responsibilty is simply. To take Muslim leaders hand and guide the way. To build bridges of friendship and understanding.
This certainly wont achieve that.

I cant even say I think its because they are allowing themselves to be bullied because other stands taken to protect Australia have been taken.

Its simply that they dont care.
Animal Welfare is not an issue they wish to debate.
They cant be bothered.
Its the Animals that miss out once again.
Animal Welfare is a election issue Celiva.
The real prblem is as you said we need a party formed.
You hit the nail on the head.
What are the Dems and the Greens saying about this do you know?
Its discusting and shameful to have a hundred year old act with basically no changes. Even then its the only act of Parliment In Australia that is NOT enforced.

I see this as a huge mistake by the Australian Government and Muslim leaders because if it wasnt an election issue this time it soon will be.
This is ging to gain heaps of support for all animal groups and the backlash to Muslims and the Government will be enormous.
Australian people simply wont cop our country being thrown back to the dark ages of the middle east.
It shows utter lack of respect for our laws from Muslim Leaders.
Thats something the Government need to think about.
Muslims except pre stunning.
Thats a fact of life.
Well most Muslims other than the extreme.
So we are now in Australia going to abide by extreme Muslim laws are we Prime Minister?
They dont even respect you to suggest it.
What does that tell you.
[ Give me the child until he is seven and I will give you the man Wendys says often]
So John Howard is this the example you are setting?
All Aussies will roll over for allah.
Maybe the next request will be we all face Mecca to Vote.
``Think about it.``

"Feedriver. Yes of course its good information. The public need to know what is and isnt legal. Of course the next question the public will ask is\
- Well if its illegal who is turning a Blind Eye- and Why?

Before you get too carried away, why don't you try finding something 'official' or at least something from a more trustwarthy site about these laws.

A link to the DAFF site on treatment of animals at abbattoirs. Note that right down the bottom of the page is a reference to Judaic slaughter, which requires the animal to be concious when its throat is cut, but condones instant stunning as soon as cut is made. So perhaps its not about efficiency of bleeding at all...

http://www.daff.gov.au/animal-plant-health/welfare/nccaw/guidelines/livestock/abattoirs

How about some animal rights group conduct a bit of research on brainwave patterns for various methods of death. Which ever results in brain patterns ceasing faster would have to be the most humane. They can then use scientific evidence to back their claims, rather than emotive rot.

Country Girl
All you need do is a google search. The Question was aked by PF of us do we Agree with Ritual Slaugheter In Australia.
The Answer is no.
On the link you put up you will see the Names Dr Wirth and Glenys Ogjes.
It probably is fair to mention both these people over many years have been invited to meet with ourselves and Muslim leaders from both here in Australia and overseas such as celiva mentioned

We invited Glenys to join us regarding introducing Gas into Halal plants which several leading Muslim people from overseas.

Has anybody see a Media R from Senator Bartlett or Bob Brown about this?

AFIC also put that in a sub to the Senate enquiry into Animal Welfare. It features in our MOU with AFIC.

There was NO interest. Given that they knew of our MOU with Muslim leaders to work to improve Animal Welfare we find that extrordinary.

Dr Wirth is also head of WSPA In Austalia and our group was denied membership. Thats of more interest than annoyance to us.

Another example of their lack of interest would have to be the fact that neither have contacted us regarding this issue "again" despite knowing about our work with Muslim leaders.

It is only fair to the Muslim people and leaders to point that out.
We MUST learn to work together with Muslim people and Leaders.

Dr Wirth RSPCA has stated RSPCA were lied to by the Federal Government when assured nobody was practising ritual slaughter.
Ok - Thats pretty serious indeed.
Stop There. We need a Royal Com into that right now!

Are we happy being on the web page along side Muslim leaders supporting them and Animal Welfare?
Yes because its a start towards working together.

Are we happy by the about face of this proposal to not pre stun animals[ without at least speaking with us] No we are not!!.

What do we need? A Royal Open public comm into the meat trade and Animal Welfare.

BTW.

Just read my own above post and sometimes things dont come out the way we mean. We want to make it very clear we totally support other Animal Groups one hundred percent.

The wonderful work done by Animals Australia Animal Liberation PACAT Dawn low and too many others to mention is invaluable.

Especially Lyn White.

What we are however saying is sometimes an indiviual person or persons can stand in the way of progress.
I have seen this happen time and time again . Considering its the animals who suffer we have a zero tolerance for over inflated egos.
People say there is a lot of inta fighting amoung Muslims and Muslim Leaders.
I would be lying if I didnt say- Yes thats quite true.
The last five years has been trying to say the least. Its often hard when you have many members of a Mosque coming from different parts of the world.
Like us some are more educated and some are quite concerned about Animal Welfare.
Some are from the old school and have not changed much from what I can see in thousands of years.
What I have found interesting and to be truthful surprising is they all are concerned about Animal Welfare.
Sure they might see it totally differently and you can argue until the cows come home.
However what sets them apart is the fact the are happy to discuss it and we encourage the other groups to try to work together with us by attending some meetings with Muslim Leaders of Australia.

It is beyond the pale that stubborne arrogance is the only reason these meetings have not been happening for several already.
We support ALL animal groups and we encourage them[ again] to work with us and attend meetings with Muslim Leaders we hold our MOU with.

For The Animals

Taryn,
Thanks for that link, I will have a good look soon; my pc has been extraordinary slow, I think we’ve used up our limits.
Both the Greens and Dems seem to have a fair animal (federal) policy in place so I assume they would be on the animals’ side on this issue as well: http://greens.org.au/about/policy/policy.php?policy_id=18 and http://www.democrats.org.au/policies/policy_dis.htm?id=39&policy=Animal+Welfare+Policy .

The ALP hasn’t released their new policy yet, and I can’t find an animal policy from the Liberals, Family First or the Socialist Party either. In the meantime I have emailed them and waiting for a reply on their policies.

The SP replied and wants to see more proactive checks on animal welfare. They share my view that the government puts profit before interests of human workers and animals.

Anyway, I’ll be keeping an eye on this topic- if there’s any news about stunning and slaughter we could continue to post it on this thread.

Celiva

Family first have NO Animal Welfare Policy? dont even start me on the churches reps again.
Shame.

I assume SP is State Parliment? Labour Government have zero interest in animal welfare. It is the states that have allowed dometic abattoirs to operate without any re stunning.

According to Hugh Wirth RSPCA the Federal Government have straight out lied to RSPCA.
We need to find out who is bending to them and - Why?
Considering this has been put on the table just weeks before a Federal election I cant say I agree with Yabby that the meat industry is not political.

I am not going to pretend we are not extremely dissapointed with AFIC especially given it was 'our' suggestion to meet with Peter Mcgauran regarding accreditations for Halal Slaughter.

We all saw the AWB enquiry.
I personally resent AFIC using the benefit of having our people on their web page working together under a MOU for animal welfare then pulling a stunt like this without contacting us.

I find it down right dishonest and lacking in credability.


I am both surprised and extremely dissapointed with the new President also.
That said I can assure you there are many Muslims who do not agree with this and want to pre stunning continued.

Those people have put their hands up to forming a Muslim Animal Welfare group and I know they will get a lot of support from Australian Muslims.

I guess Muslim Leaders in Australia will learn that people can be voted in or voted out as leaders.
Much like Howard and Rudd.
Thats what happens when you live in a democracy so it doesnt matter how much preshure you get from third world cruel countries from overseas- people ought to remember this is Australia.

These people will no doubt have the support of the Australian public and all Animal Welfare groups including I would think the RSPCA.
So I guess the lesson to be learned here is.
Here today- Gone tomorrow.[ Not a smart deal Prime Mininster]

Ritual Slaughter without stunning of Animals.
Australia Says NO

Just a foot note.
PALE is considering a tell all post regarding dealings with AFIC leaders.
You dont have to be interested either in Animal Welfare to find it extrordinary reading.
This is the straw that broke the cammels back[ no pun intended] especially after our meeting with the President a few weeks ago In Brisbane along with State Government.
Enough is enough

It never ceases to amaze me that "some" modern Muslims feel they have the right and perfect freedom to criticise us as being corrupt and contradictory but whenever anyone dares to critise them along the same lines, they label this as rude, offensive, and racist!

You are right PALE, there is a real double standard here. They dont mind at all offending us with their preference for ritual killings and bringing down our animal welfare standards, but of course we will be accused of racism for taking a stand now that they have been caught out.

Thank You for your comment PF.
Taryn is going to post a letter sent to their President yesterday.
[ Only because this computer isnt working]
I felt is was only fair to disclose it on your thread enquiring- Halal Kind?? Meats please explain?
Please note Silence on this issue from Kevin Rudd. ALP Where are you??

Your correct about brining down the standards[ not that they were so high in the first place] but this is beyond the pale.

The Australian public have a right to know what was in the MOU signed by John Howard two years ago with Bruni.? Also what other MOUs have been signed with Maylasia or any other countries.
Were RSPCA informed?
Apparently not according to Dr Wirth RSPCA.

His words were clear. He stated- "We were lied to when we were assured by AQIS this was NOT happening in Australia."

That would mean the Prime Mininster lied or issued intruction to keep mum on this agreement from RSPCA- Or I guess to be fair to the Prime Mininster Dr Wirth lied after the event.

Now considering in the past there have been many so called enquiries into Animal Welfare ALL OF WHICH BTW recomended live export cease immediatly] we need to ask for a open Royal Commission into the whole affair.
As for the standards of the Muslims both here and overseas I do not believe this business about if an animal is not treated with kindness its not Halal.
What I think is really behind this stand suddenly against stunning is simply apart from a small cost

THEY REFUSE TO WORK WITH THE WEST In Anything!!. Its a stand Against Western Culture. Thats why Australia needs Muslim Leaders prepaired to assimulate.

WE REFUSE TO PRE STUN ANIMALS BEFORE SLAUGHTERN BECAUSE IT WAS INTRODUCED BY THE WEST.

Isnt that Right?

Mystery Solved

PF
AN OPEN LETTER TO AFIC BELOW.
Thank you fr brining this to attention and being my favourite Farmer!
Taryn

12th August 2007


Dear Ikebal
We have been placed in a most embarrassing and difficult position by AFIC.
It is clear our MOU is not respected. Not to discuss this proposal to the
Government of not pre stunning animals at Abattoirs is outrageous and quite
frankly rude. AFIC is aware that on your web page along with our
organistation there is the Humane Society of NSW, The CEO of RSPCA QLD,
George Czaus a lawyer and director of HKM The Founders of A International
Language School, Tom Hannen the X federal Leader of the AMIEU who in
particular having seen and worked with abattoir staff for thirty five years
totally opposes anybody NOT pre stunning animals. Be it Islamic OR Kosher.-
Brad Saunders representing the Aboriginal people and State Government of QLD
plus myself founder of PALE and HKM founder and director.

The same applies regarding our meeting in Brisbane that HKM called and
brought along with them a rep from the State Government supporting the
proposal including a offer to fund it.

Despite the fact HKM worked tirelessly to achieve the offer of funding and
compile the project you stated [ in front of Brad] That you thought HKM
should stand back for a while] in the same breath as saying you were pleased
the QLD State Government had made an offer of funding.
Let me remind you it is HKM who hold discussions of MOUs with Aboriginal
Councils - and the State Government. Putting it bluntly Ikebal it was HKMs
proposal to the State Government - and AFIC.
It is a pity AFIC did not see this offer through HKM as a beginning of
becoming more involved with working along side Australian People and
Governments.

Our true position now as a Animal Welfare Group has been damaged.
We have spent a great deal of our time working towards softening the
attitude of all other Animal Welfare Groups towards Muslim people and
leaders.

To Be Continued-

Continued-
It seems AFIC are not to respect our MOU despite now having a new President.
What Muslim people need as you freely agreed to at our meeting is some good
publicity and an opportunity to show they can work well with main stream
Australian companies and the general public.
This is another example of what our organisation has already experienced
with AFIC and the meeting we held with delegates in Brisbane only to be cut
out of the loop later after providing the initial contact.
AFIC several years ago have already received a letter from our lawyers in
regard to this behaviour when we were working with Amjad.

May I say I would have thought the opportunity to work on this project with
us might have far outweighed the repair of a roof of a Mosque.
Well may you say Ikabel there is no proof that not pre stunning is any more
cruel than pre stunning? I can assure you there is a great difference and
as Muslims have excepted pre stunning I can not understand why you would
agree to go back to pre historic times.
George and his family operated and owned abattoirs for years and Tom as I
said had has thirty five years of knowlegde .
The difference is- And I have personally seen it- Not using a pre stun the
animal stuggles for breath while having the blood drained out of it while
still alive and conscious. As opposed to the pre stunning where the animal
is rendered unconscious.


I would ask you to remove us from your web page and of course consider our
MOU at an end.
It is with regret you chose not to work with us however you leave us without
any other choice. On a personal note to you Ikabel I am extremely surprised
and very disappointed.

Regards
Wendy Lewthwaite

Hmmm, I think this is an issue of internal Islamic politics. What
is really halal or not, is open to religious interpretation by
various Islamic scholars. I think Wendy is mistaken in her belief
as to how much local Islamic leaders matter. They don't, for
Islam is unlike the Catholic Church, with one supreme ruler.
There are many schools, many interpretations, all valid in their
own way. Local Muslims would go out of their way to not tread on
the toes of various Islamic scholars.

The best thing that Australia can do is to remind Muslims that
the Koran states that they should be kind to animals. If it can
be shown that slaughter without stunning is in fact not kind to
animals, then the argument is simple.

Rodger Fletcher has been able to convince his clients, that stunning
before slaughter is a good thing all round. The rest of the industry
should learn from that.

Yabby

Wendy`s saying - Where are the AVA and RSPCA.? Shes also saying if a few others had got behind this it may have had a different result but at least we gave it our best shot.

Yes Rodger does manage to do business and do very well at it with Muslims by using pre stunning.

That only proves it can be done and the Government should use him as an example for some law and set standards for Animal Welfare.

You and I both know the civilised Muslims readily except pre stunning.
Anything for a vote Yabby. Dont hear any objections from Rudd either.

This was in direct conflict with our MOU and previous meetings held with overseas reps who were quite happy to look at gas down the track.

No Yabby this is local and pretty much driven by one person.

AFIC are extremely short staffed and often major descions are left to one or two people and the rest follow.

As you said Rodger can work with overseas without any problem.

We ought to remember ritual slaughter is illegal in this country.

So why is the Government even having this conversation. I might add behind our backs knowing full well of our MOU.
WHY? are they not out there charging people?

You mentioned the Catholic Church. I cant hear them objecting can you.

Here is their chance to show the world how merciful "their" God Is.

Perhaps we need to look for better Muslim Leadership because there are many projects available for those who want to work together with Aussies building plants and especially working with our Aboriginal people and Regional people.

Rodger as you said has good working arrangments with Muslim people so your right Yabby- We just need more Rodgers and more good Muslims and their leaders who already work happily with him to lead Australian Muslims in the right direction.

You can judge a Nation by the way it treats its animals.

G

Yabby
I note you could have put the boot in but you didnt.
You and I have argued this Halal slaughter thing for a very long time.
So your words of wisdom are noted and the spirit it was given in.
I will take a break for a while and lick my wounds. A lot of good people have been burnt and I would be less than honest if I didnt say I feel responsible.

Later who knows I might write a book on my experiences over the last five years working with Muslim leaders.

Might be a good way of educating the public about Animal Welfare if not about honour and credability.

In the mean time at least we have a web page up so if I change the Kind to Cruel and pop up some pictures of Ritual Slaughters next to the pictures- Ah Mohamed. [ You have the links]

The beach looks good and riding through the bush with a Bundy.

Work with the Aboriginals can contiune with Japan or other counties but somebody else will have to run it.



Remember to ask at your shopping center is it Halal? There are more and more shops opening using Halal each day.

If the Answer is yes there is a chance this animal was NOT pre stunned.
Although this practise is illegal In Australia it would seem the Government dont care?

You might like to walk over to the next counter with Aussie food.

Either way its "your choice" and you have a "right to be informed" to allow you to make that choice for you and your family.

In the mean time it is interesting to note some of the emails recieved by us from Muslim people who do "not: support ritual slaughter and do support pre stunning.
Where there is light - there is hope Yabby is correct.

Just a question for PALE if you don't mind.

I was under the impression that Halal slaughter and Kosher slaughter use the same method: cutting the throat while conscious.

When you said that Kosher slaughter is more cruel than Halal slaughter, I tried to search the internet for the differences to no avail.

What is different about the two slaughtering methods that makes Kosher more cruel than Halal?

Celiva
So Sorry I didnt see this. With Kosha they stick them several times in different places to bleed them out. Often skin them alive.

Thanks, PALE- that sounds extremely cruel!

Did any of you see this article?

Labor seeks improvements in live export trade

Monday, 05/11/2007

Labor says if it wins government, it may have to halt the live export trade, unless the Australian public can be satisfied with slaughter conditions in overseas markets.

The comments have angered livestock groups including the Australian Beef Association, which is demanding Labor change its policy.

The Opposition's agricultural spokesman Kerry O'Brien says before halting the trade, a Labor Government would work with the industry to improve standards.

"But perhaps some markets will not be available to our live exports, as has happened in the past, because we can't get the settings right," he says.

"In some particular cases the government may have to step in and say look, this particular market refuses to deal with issues of animal welfare, that will damage our reputation and the industry's reputation, it's best until we can resolve that issue, that exports don't go to that market".

Pastoralists in Western Australia's Kimberley region, who rely on the live export trade, say they are shocked by Senator O'Brien's comments.

Jack Burton from Yeeda Station says Labor's stance is worrying, given it has a strong chance of winning the election.

"More than it affecting my vote, what I think it's done is that it's made me feel that if one side of politics has such a blatant disregard of people like us who are up here trying to do the right thing with our lives, then it's a real eye opener of what they think of rural Australia I suppose," he says.

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/2007/s2081756.htm

Celivia
Thanks for your quick action in posting this.
Your post you put up here would be highly vauled on this thread-
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1223&page=0

The point you just raised is what we are debating on right now.
All the old Charters are on there and its to biggest political beef up of the elections.
The redident rast old Yabbs is having kittens.
Hes busy tormenting Dickie that he just send lambs to Mecca.
In case you missed it The two Agriculture Ministers went head to head on Landline ABC On Sunday about live Animal Exports.
The Howard Government represented by Peter McGuran exposes how liitle they care about public opinion.
Re ALP talking up improving live exports- We MUST watch them.
They know full well the only! way to stop cruelty in other countries is to not send them\ - But slaughter here.

We must be careful they are not playing the game until elected- then buger the public like this government we have.
Its GOT TO BE No Live Trade or Nothing at all from ALP
There IS no comprimise Mr Rudd.
You want to bring higher numbers of migrants here to Australia- Ok well here are the future jobs for country towns. not all work is in the abattoirs as the meat trade flows off to many others.
Thanks Agin- hope to see you on the other thread taking on Yabby again
We all got huge satifaction out of that. Believe me.
Poor Old Yabbs- He cant help it if hes awful.