Anti vaccine activists are making a big impact do they however have the right to risk the kids
Old illness is being seen again but vaccines exist to prevent it
Can kids be exposed because of parents views
Sure many will say parents have the right but surely too the kids do?
Interested to see what others think, a facebook page set up by the anti side is worth the read
My firm view is unless medical reasons exist every child should be protected

Dear Belly,

Vaccines are one of the most important measures
of preventative medicine to protect the
population from diseases and infection.

They have contributed to decreasing rates of common
childhood diseases and in some cases have even
wiped out some diseases that were common in the
past.

The following link explains about anti-vaxx activists:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6122668/

Very sad to read of the unnecessary measles deaths in Europe. Also read of one young fellow with anti-vax parentage who promptly had numerous vaccinations when he turned eighteen. The responsible young fellow did not want to endanger young children. His younger sibling is keen to follow.

I think it part of being a responsible citizen, but beyond public protection measures I don't see much sense in prosecuting irrational refuseniks.

I am absolutely adamant in not allowing children
into child-care centres or schools who have not
been immunised. "No jab, no play!" should be
maintained. Parents have no right to inflict
harm on other children.

cont'd ...

Here is a further explanation of the "No Jab No Play,"
legislation that was passed in the state of Victoria:

http://www2.health.vic.gov.au/public-health/immunisation/vaccination-children/no-jab-no-play

Hi Foxy,
On the one side I agree with you.
"Vaccines are one of the most important measures
of preventative medicine to protect the
population from diseases and infection."

On the other side, I think all you Pro-Vaxxers should be the ones to personally give up your lives and take the responsibility to look after the retard kids whose retardations are the results of vaccine side-effects.

You look after them, and you make sure they have a good life.
Stop making people feel guily because they wont put a gun to their childs head to play russian roullette with.

The anti-vaxxers position is not opposing the science of innoculation.
It's about ensuring vaccinnes are safe and that the increased use of so may shots at once is not harmful.

Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

<Last year, 16 Ukrainians died of the extremely contagious viral disease, which is easily prevented with a vaccine.>

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/02/measles-cases-have-tripled-europe-fueled-ukrainian-outbreak

In contrast, how many children would have suffered complications from vaccination? Measles is just one of many diseases prevented with vaccination. Would we be having this discussion if nobody was vaccinated? I would suggest that the funeral business would be booming from dying children and our health services would be overrun with the sick and disabled.

Pure ignorance and selfishness in my view.

Well seem we mostly agree, not sure how any parent can put their child at risk
But lets face it some always have, take blood transfusions
Foxy,s links help and my developing concern has been reawakened by recent old illness reappearing
Some strange things are said by the anti side and that concerns me

I'm pro-vaccinations.

All my kids, and grandkids are fully immunised.

That said, this is of some interest....

http://www.oatext.com/Pilot-comparative-study-on-the-health-of-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-6-to-12-year-old-U-S-children.php

'Parents have no right to inflict
harm on other children.'

unless of course they are kicking inside the womb.

"Measles is just one of many diseases prevented with vaccination."

And Measles is just one of the many diseases I survived as a child;
(after being sent to the kids party to catch it).

- Along with Mumps, Chicken pox etc.

Natural immunity is way better than a stupid peanut allergy.

Well not every one thinks like most but gee natural inoculation
What for? the black death Ebola, we see Polio making a come back, do we let kids catch it
Knew some would not support it but that was the reason for the discussion
Do kids of anti vaxxers have rights too

I suspect the numerous vaccinations being pumped into kids these days do much more harm than breathing co2 does on the climate. The warmist industry and the pharmecuical companies I suspect have a lot in common. No I am not anti vax but far from convinced that all are necessary. I also have a good friend whose daughter is severley handicapped. He believes the disabilty was either caused or effected by vacination. Very distressing to see this grown girl fitting regularly and messing herself.

Then you have the religious fruitcakes, the totally off the planet Jehovah's Witnesses who believe vaccination is equivalent to drinking animal blood.

According to JW's

"Vaccination is a direct violation of the everlasting covenant that God made with Noah after the flood."

You can believe its all down to the "everlasting covenant", or you can believe this mob are just a bunch of screw balls.

My comment on the 'Is There A Better Way Than The Monotheistic Religions?' thread is relevant to this thread.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8657&page=0#276553

I hate to say this but there is a lot of smoke and mirrors in the debate of vaccinations. Some who say that vaccinations harmed their kids, while others point out studies showing the safety of vaccines. Then there are where the debate comes into play whether the vaccinations are to blame for a kid's mental state or if it is due to other causes. The smoke and lies part of the problem is that there seems to always be something to support one stance and help ignore the other stance. With this in mind, I think the burden on vaccinations is on the parents to sift through what they can to descide what is best for their kids. That's the parents job and their responsibility. It is therefore their right, and not something to take away from them.

Unless there is actual evidance to show the cases of retardation had nothing to do with vaccines, or evidance to show that that vaccines are the root cause. If there is a cause to point to then it is no longer a point of smoke and mirrors to "believe what you think is true,". But instead comes down to a stance to only help and do no harm that a society can step in and say there are harms get rid of it, or that there are no harms keep it. We're not at that point of knowledge on vaccines or any many other potential causes of mental retardation. Therefore yes, it is the parent's right and responsibility to make the des idioms they think are best for their children. Including to vaccinate or not to vaccinate.

not-now-soon I agree, but read other posts, see the one claiming harm to children who are vaccinated, on what evidence?
Yes AC religion, all of them, should not put any ones life at risk, in the name of a phantom
But back to the harm done to any one
CHOLERA, POLIO just two, but tens exist, stopped by vaccines
Ebola aids a host of killing illness that can or may soon be stalled by vaccination
Parents have the right to live under a tree in Nimbin and chant all day but the kids? do they have rights?
Or are they the property of the parent

If they focussed on vaccines to curb stupidity, things would improve but as long as they';re working on increasing a longer living population, modern medicine will end up fighting itself.

indy not even close to understanding what drove you in that post
You seem unaware of the basic reason this thread exists

The very thought that anyone could be permitted to interfere with another's body and the body of their children, punch holes in them and insert unwanted substances into their bloodstream, is absolutely sickening and barbaric. How could such a vicious idea even cross one's mind, let alone infect a society?

So suppose some of you happen to have a desire, in the case before us it is to live without certain germs and viruses, but it could just as well have been to become rich and enjoy other's slave-labour and/or sexual graces for free, or to live longer by reaping and implanting other people's organs: how dare you impose the fulfilment of your desires on the bodies of others?!

yuyutsu never going to get near understanding you
But are you saying the parent has rights but not the child
That others exposed because that child is, have no rights
That the history of vaccines stopping millions of deaths is not good
Do you cringe on hearing of the latest death of a child because mum and dad would not let it have a blood donation that may have saved it
Is your stance on rights of the parent reason enough for further needless deaths

To Belly.

I understand the scope of the debate. I understand the reason for vaccines are to prevent and remove horrible diseases from being in society. In fact in my area several vaccines are required to be taken before being allowed to go to public schools, and the vaccines are required again as a booster shot later on while in school.

The point of the vaccines are not just to keep an individual from being sick, but to remove the sickness from society. In order for that to happen it has to be mandated for everyone to take the vaccinations. This is where the controversy lies, in that if there are any ill effects from the vaccines or somehow are connected to the vaccines. Perhaps it's the vaccine, or it's a bad batch the drug company made, or it was something at the doctor's office being unclean while exposing the child to these vaccines, or a combination of any of these things and other elements. But the point is that if there is harm from the vaccines, something a parent has to worry about with retardation or some other ailment, then it is the parent's responsibility to do what they thing is right for the sake of their children.

This isn't an issue of child rights because the parents are looking after their children when making their decision.

Dear Belly,

«But are you saying the parent has rights but not the child»

On what grounds are you claiming that the best interest and wellbeing of the child would be served by following the dictates of foreign people rather than of his/her own parents, in other words that some others "know better"?

My view (on which I expanded in the past) is that one's parents (assuming that they both are in agreement) are most likely disposed to be the best to know what's good for their child.

«That others exposed because that child is, have no rights»

Other people do have the right to protect themselves, but not to harm others.
They may for example rightly demand that unvaccinated children do not come physically near them or their own children.

«That the history of vaccines stopping millions of deaths is not good»

I wasn't saying that, but since you asked, my view is that what is good for one is not necessarily good for everyone else. Wellbeing is much a function of values and circumstances, which vary between people and cultures.

«Do you cringe on hearing of the latest death of a child because mum and dad would not let it have a blood donation that may have saved it»

It deeply depends on the intention of the parents, whether their refusal was selfish or for genuine care for the child.
And what does "saved" mean anyway? Your presumption (likely based on Western/Judeo-Christian values) is that life is automatically better than death. I do not share this assumption. In my view, for example, one should not be saving the body at the expense of spirit.

«Is your stance on rights of the parent reason enough for further needless deaths»

This is not about parents' rights, but about the ability of parents to best represent their child's true interests. Depending on circumstances, death is not automatically bad or "needless".

Who else but parents can protect their child from mistaken/inappropriate values of society?

What about "Do unto others....". People refusing to vaccinate their children benefit from the choice of others who vaccinate their children. In turn, unvaccinated people may acquire preventable infections and spread them to children below the age of vaccination with devastating consequences. Unfortunately this scenario is not a hypothetical one. The Blairs were shamed into vaccinating their children with this reasoning.

not even close to understanding what drove you in that post
Belly,
Why am I not surprised !
To make it more understandable for you I'll try this explanation. More people depending on others equals more resentment.
You're one of those whom I offered to contribute $ 5 in every weekly wage & pension towards a program to once & for all make a real start to put a severe dent into poverty. Haven't heard anything on that from you as yet.
With our $5 each we could accumulate sufficient funding to produce helpful commodities to be sent to those who think they'll need more children to look after them in old age. This would be a start to population/birth control/prevention. Please don't ask me to explain that again also.
Modern medicine keeps more people alive for longer but not at their expense. Medical waste is one of the worst type of waste produced so, we have more & longer living people with an increased amount of really bad waste, all of which needs to be paid for taxpayers.
The time has well & truly come to make people responsible for their indiscriminate breeding at the expense of others. Fewer children born equals fewer children starving to death equals healthier children/people. All that's needed is sterilisation after two children. Even runner shouldn't have a problem but more than likely wasted sperm will still be murder in his opinion.
Did he ever call it murder when he was wizzing the odd one through the knuckles ?

no even close to thinking that was worth replying to indy
However even you, well maybe, would find no fault with vaccine that stopped Cholera
That stalled Polio, that may one day kill Cancer

My problem with medical problem solving is that by solving one problem they create two more.
Whenever a new remedy is discovered to prolong life, they need to find an answer to population growth. I can't think of another non-violent method other than pregnancy prevention.
The real problem is now that the Pill has not resulted in lower population growth, it has result in a massive growth in immorality. Thousands of children die every day in countries that do not have pregnancy prevention & in countries where this option is available to all it has become a National social suicide.

This is a really interesting issue and goes to the heart of how we view ourselves.

It is not surprising that the US is the wellspring of the antivax movement. Possibly the most religious nation in the Western world and arguably the most afflicted by conspiracy theorists, mistrust of 'big' government and the enshrinement of individual over community rights.

As I have said to the antivaxxers in my extended family, I respect your right not to vaccinate your children. I agree there is a very small risk of an averse reaction to vaccinations. Further, in a community which has a high uptake of vaccinations there may well be an argument that protection from a strong herd immunity is sufficient to allow that right to be exercised with very low risk to an individual's child. However I make it very clear that people who choose to sponge off those who vaccinated (and thus exposed their own children to complications) should be very grateful to the rest of us who also saw the communal benefit in doing so.

I did have an amusing exchange with one antivax mother who when I asked her if her child came in from playing with a rusty nail in their foot would they take them to get a tetanus shot she said of course because it wasn't a vaccination. When I explained that is most certainly is a vaccine she obfuscated at length. The conclusion of course is if her child was in direct danger of contracting some disease and no longer was served by a communal herd immunity then her stance on vaccinations would be out the window.

Her grandmother of course is aghast as she had experienced children going to hospital with hooping cough and not returning to neighbouring houses, of polio afflicted children trapped in iron lungs of with calipers on their legs in the playground.

So in my mind antivaxxers should accept with good grace every measure that those in the wider community use to attempt to mitigate this selfish behaviour.

Steele Redux,
The very same principle can be applied to National Service ! Don't contribute, don't claim any benefit that comes from the service !

Steele Redux well said indy? well you got your national service
What if we did have national service
What of the immunization those youths get?
The issue remains vaccination not what the neighbor has hanging on the cloths line

Belly,
What you don't seem to want to accept is that participating in a National Service alters just about everything from mentality to health, to economy to commitment to Nation building.
Everyone benefits even those who don't believe in it. It reduces unemployment & crime rates.
Drugs would become a much reduced problem because of National Service participants becoming less & less like cattle.
Once you have a more responsible society it also becomes a more cohesive society.
Nation Service is desperately needed in Australia !

http://globalnews.ca/news/4967561/measles-danger-deaths/?utm_source=Article&utm_medium=MostPopular&utm_campaign=2014
Found the link while looking for some thing else it is confronting
indy in all truth I will never share you intense views on national service
It is not and never will be, a cure all
War time? maybe but as a tool for fixing things, some that are only in your mind? no thanks

a tool for fixing things, some that are only in your mind?
Belly,
So, you think drug overdosing, welfare cheating, theft & break-ins, assaults, DUI deaths, unemployment etc are only in MY mind ?
Boy, have you got some growing up ahead of you !

Dear individual,

There seems to be a bunch of Councilors here in Victoria who agree with you.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/south-east/casey-councillors-vote-in-favour-of-compulsory-military-service-to-help-curb-youth-unemployment-crime/news-story/7772705c453a2d7531a8fffd3e749065

However there is a stark reality at the other end for those who then go on to full military service;

"Veteran unemployment is at 30.2 per cent, more than five times the national average."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-12/what-to-do-about-veterans-unemployment/9538402

This disturbing statistic is one of the drivers for depression, substance abuse and suicide by returned soldiers.

So it appears deferring education and civilian work experience can be quite detrimental to the chances of a fully realised career.

However perhaps instead of compulsory national service the opportunity to participate in programs like those touted in the US.

"Investments in National Service programs such as AmeriCorps, VISTA, YouthBuild, and other youth corps programs deserve serious consideration as part of a national strategy to tackle unemployment, provide anti-poverty services, and strengthen our economy. These programs can prepare young adults for long-term employment opportunities in the public and private sector.

National service programs create full-time positions that are—in most cases—jointly paid for by public and private resources. These entry-level public service positions pay a poverty-level living allowance or slightly more, and they come with health-care benefits, sometimes child-care benefits, and the opportunity for Segal AmeriCorps Education Awards, which help recipients pay for higher education, educational training, or student loans. National service programs are not designed as long-term career positions, but these national service jobs have historically helped boost job creation by providing opportunities for difficult-to-employ youth and recent college graduates, while also building nonprofit organizations’ capacity to continue this important social service."
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/poverty/reports/2009/11/16/6910/national-service-and-youth-unemployment/

Unless of course you are wedded to the notion that they need a weapon in their hand.

Steele redux,
I am in favour of prevention rather than cure & that's why we need an education system instead of the Billy Goat show that are our present eduction institutions.

The thread was intended to highlight a concern
Not about every thing that concerns us, we can all start threads
It was about the moral right of parents to refuse their children protection
Maybe it was also about that protection, not in my view, but the view of the anti vaxxers
I introduced those against blood donations, because in my view they use a moral reason, not every one agrees with
What then of those children, reading on the subject can be confronting
Some on turning 16, have got the inoculation parents denied them
What is this saying
Individual, is your view in fact saying you do not support the immunization to stop Polio,Cholera,and tens of mass killing illnesses?

you do not support the immunization to stop Polio,Cholera,and tens of mass killing illnesses?
Belly,
Of course you had to misinterpret my post. No I am fully supportive of the above just as I am fully supportive of sterilisation (or if possible temporary) after two children to bring down the number of people suffering the above mentioned illnesses.
Oh, if only they could find a vaccine for the mass indoctrination that is the cause of Leftsts mentality !

indy old mate your words used by you make the question an honest one
from your first post in this thread when talking on subject, not always seen, you belittle immunization
it seems to have had its run, a subject well worth thinking about
but if it is just you and me talking about other subjects lets give it a miss

let's give it a miss.
Belly,
Fine, but I always prefer to offer the option of suggestions, that's far more constructive , you never know who might right them & actually consider them.

Over night indy, not sure if it was a local paper, read the Australian government is asking facebook to stop anti vaxx pages spreading fear
Also read, but do not yet understand, about a flesh eating boil like thing, taking hold in Victoria
Hope they get a shot for that

Hi Belly,

//about a flesh eating boil like thing, taking hold in Victoria
Hope they get a shot for that//

I thought they got rid of that at the December election. It was called the Guy Boil, wasn't it lanced by the voters? Don't tell me its that new one, the O'Brien Boil, a real pain in the arse that one.

Paul yes agree but it is true, or the press is beating it up, that numbers infected are growing
If they develop one for political spin Scomos mob with need it by the 44 gallon drum

http://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/deadly-measles-infects-thousands-in-philippines-as-vaccines-shunned-20190220-p50z4c.html
Evidence some seem to suffer because of the anti vaxx movement

Dear belly,

It is an illustration, from individual's responses, of the difficulty the rightwing have with this issue.

They are very much about individual rights being superior or trumping the communal rights of our society. Therefore if a person chooses to exercise their individual rights by refusing to have their children vaccinated, then the ethics of the rightwingers should mean they are wholeheartedly supported, especially if the State does something punitive like refusing child payments as a result of that refusal.

But there is an element of 'law and order' at play here too. Anti-vaxxers are often lumped in with anarchistic fringe types which the right usually abhor.

So we can forgive individual's reticence to take a firm stance on anti-vaxxers.

There is also the far left ideology which sees the pharmaceutical industry as an evil capitalist enterprise. Conspiracy theories are rife at the political extremes. Ideology affects how people evaluate evidence. I think it something we all need to be aware of when forming an opinion.

With vaccination the key is to keep things mundane. Coming down heavy on anti-vaxers is just fuel for the extremists.

So we can forgive individual's reticence to take a firm stance on anti-vaxxers.
Steele redux,
??

steele redux to be honest it is refreshing to see a normal balanced post in this thread
Not surprising to see festers either
As we wallow in the mud Trump like right are producing, it is interesting to see basic wish to protect children used to trash one side of politics
Any want to explain why
How can an issue about health, even life and death, of kids, become left v right
This issue, read the recent link, is growing, its victims are dying
While a left v right verbal war may please some how is it contributing to answers

Just watched a program where medical researchers are finding that the more we fight decease the more harmful microbes are getting the upper hand.

Hey individual,
I watched a short youtube documentary a while ago which discussed a different kind of approach to medicine, but I can't find the link to it.

Instead of trying to fix the body with all these legal drugs;
The people in the video advocated an approach something like this:

Take a kind of a broader view of the human body and it's essentially needed vitamins, minerals nutrients etc; then:

Remove what shouldn't be there;
And put back what should be there.

- With the result being that the body should then repair itself.

Seems simple and logical enough.
I wish I could find the link to it again or remember what they called it.

Belly,

Politicising vaccination will only do harm in my view.

ACs

I think you are outlining the fad junk science of today. I think it total crap directed at conning people, not helping them. As a long time sufferer of chronic illness I can say that modern medicine has worked miracles for me and junk science is junk. That has been my experience.

Seems simple and logical enough.
Armchair Critic,
Only one problem with that, Govt doesn't fund simplicity & logic !

Fester IF the subject has been politicized it was not by any of us
It in fact is a world wide concern and in truth beggared if I know how you can think it is not well and truly a political issue now
Truth is the thread started with the news the Australian Government has asked facebook to take some control over anti vaxx pages on its site
AC the British Royal family have been known users of Natural therapy , you touch on a form of that in your post
BUT the defeat of Cholera is just one achievement of modern medicines we need such and hope, or at least I do, a cancer cure maybe be in the form of a shot in the arm

Modern medicine seems to be like building a large aircraft with no runway to land it on !

Fester you posted while I was doing the same
I did not say I support Alternative medicines, however some clearly seem to work
Take Aspro, first a product of willow trees
In fact science constantly searches for new medicines in plants around the world
Linking anti vaxx to Alternative treatments is a bridge too far for me
After all the only link I see is both have true believers on both sides of any debate about their use

Belly,

Just to clarify, my comments about complementary and alternative medicine were in response to Armchair Critic.

When I look at issues like vaccination, I do so on the basis of the scientific evidence, which for vaccination is overwhelmingly suggestive of benefit. The difference between what I define as modern medicine and alternative treatment is that modern medicine has been evaluated scientifically to show efficacy. On that basis aspirin is part of the set of modern medicine. I don't see the origin of a medicine as relevant, only the evaluation. The medicine I take for my psoriasis is also an industrial chemical used to make paint and glue among other things. What makes it a modern medicine is the scientific evaluation of its efficacy.

I hope this gives you some idea of my perspective.

Thanks Fester it does, small world! not going to try to spell it but I share your illness
Could laugh with you for hours about the cures I have tried
Not helping that I like to garden in my bare feet
Wish they had a shot for that
One day, just for the fun of it may start a link about so called cures, believe me some of them are way out there

Hey Fester,
Sorry for not responding earlier.

I wish I could find the link to that video again.
I'd rather you argued the merits of the videos content rather than the focus be on me for saying it; but I did say it without providing a link and I can see how my comment might be misconstrued as the opinion of a pro pseudo-science quack and I'll cop it.

I don't want people thinking I'm some Anti-Vaxx-extremist cross Anti-Modern-Medicine wack-job, so I'[ll outline my positions.

My official position is 'Whatever Works Best'.

I am NOT against the science of inoculation.
My issue relates to questions around their safety and effectiveness that contradicts the official narrative.
If there are harmful side-effects they aren't 100% safe.
If kids who've been inoculated can still catch the virus targeted then they aren't 100% effective.
Big-Pharma will play down any negative effects.
I just believe people should have a right to all the facts and if there is a risk of harm then it should be their right to choose.
- The issue you mentioned is certainly a technicality though.

If someone could give the TRUE facts so I can weigh up the amount of harm done to a population by not vaccinating at all against the total harm caused by side-effects (allergies and harm done by anaphylactic shock, autism, fitting changed personality etc. the whole truth) then I'd be in a better position to judge.
I'm also concerned about the large amount of shots at such young ages.
You should see the current schedule.

[Cont.]
Regards Medical Treatment - 'Whatever Works Best'

I'm genuinely pleased and glad that modern medicine has provided answers that improved your health and well-being and quality of life, and I support that whatever it is.
But for many people modern medicine hasn't yet discovered all the answers and many struggle finding the right medications, and doctors will try all different ones like their patients are lab-rats.

I'm not saying I support selling snake oil or the ideology.
- I'm just simply stating that in regards to good health etc.
Taking away what shouldn't be in the body and putting back what should be there doesn't necessarily seem like an illogical approach, whilst the drug-based way may sometimes create more problems than it fixes.

Look at these kids with ADD, I'm not sure the drugs they are giving them do them much good.
I support whatever works best.

Thanks, Belly.

Psoriasis is a bugger of an illness. Unfortunately I also have psoriatic arthritis that will deform joints if untreated. Thank goodness I have the public system to fall back on if ever my treatment fails(it has been working bloody well for me for over six years), unlike the pig's breakfast of a system in the US. So many tragic stories there and a load of shonks taking advantage of the opportunity. But the illness does give an idea of how people's beliefs are influenced by personal experience.

Armchair Critic,

On vaccination as a cause of autism, Andrew Wakefield's research was found to be fraudulent and the guy was struck off the medical register. Despite this he is doing very well financially from his anti-vax cult. That being said I have a friend and colleague with a family friend who has an autistic child. No political extremism at all, but no amount of evidence would convince her that the autism and vaccination weren't related.

As for the benefits vs risks, there are many parts of the world with unvaccinated populations to study. Pakistan and polio is a prominent example, not helped by allegations the CIA used health workers as a cover to search for Osama Bin Laden. Seventy odd murders of health care workers so far. Fortunately the anti-vaxers aren't as militant elsewhere.

Fester my main illness is the Australian male one, too set in my ways to tell my doctor every thing
Been a tough old roster all my life but walking sees me need a rest after about 50 meters bones not breathing
In fact resting now after four wheel barrows of garden mix 4 to go
AC very much like you I use some natural therapy stuff
Bet you never used sump oil and kero on your feet!

I've sourced treatment from bunnings and pine tar from a horse supply shop, so I know the mindset Belly.

All I'd add on vaccination is the concerns of some about the diseases brought into Australia by refugees and the risk that this poses for the locals. Guess why we don't have those diseases here?

Fester humor helps when your feet open up and it hurts to walk
Your other point visitors refugees migrants bring things here is quite true
Also very humor loaded
Some, as you will know, claimed AIDS was not related to sex
Others, fairdinkum! claim Coke a cola makes men sterile
Back to the long list of advisers cures , not one worked,the kero and sump oil came because farmers tried curing dogs with mange
Also the medical cream used on dairy cattle to clean up mastitis.
We both know it is the body own immune system not a bug

Derisal. I have used that. Don't forget kerosene baths for scabies: Just a tablespoon or so in a warm bath. Worked very well in its day. I used a topical with crushed aspirin and pine tar palliatively for years. Stained plenty of shirts and linen with it. Hands and feet largely spared, apart from the odd swollen joint, oil drops and arthritis. Never used steroids as I didn't want thinned skin.

Are you able to use occlusion for your hands and feet? I know of one fellow who has had good results with Stelara through the NHS. I have also read of others getting local steroid injections as well for acute cases. Modern treatment can make a dramatic difference.

Well wishes.

'If someone could give the TRUE facts so I can weigh up the amount of harm done to a population by not vaccinating at all against the total harm caused by side-effects (allergies and harm done by anaphylactic shock, autism, fitting changed personality etc. the whole truth) then I'd be in a better position to judge.
I'm also concerned about the large amount of shots at such young ages.
You should see the current schedule.'

probably could not sum it up better Armchair. One wonders the tremendous harm those pushing pseudo science with the warmist scams that has made more people sceptical. They have manipulated and told so many lies in order to line their pockets it is hard to not at least question why they would not do the same with vaccinations.

Yes there is harm and waste as a result of pseudoscience. The research linking vaccination and autism was found to be fraudulent, unfortunately not before a good deal of money had been wasted on further research which showed no association (Wakefield had been funded by lawyers who had been engaged by parents in lawsuits against vaccine-producing companies:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3136032/). What studies convinced you of a link, runner? I think that Wakefield should have been jailed. His fraud, committed for financial gain, has left a legacy of many dead and disabled kids. I wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire.

'What studies convinced you of a link, runner? ' Who said I was convinced Fester. I am a skeptic as I mentioned having been told by a good friend that his grown daughter's severely handicapped condition started immediately after vaccination. They have had 25 years of cleaning up, a life of medical appointments and suffering. I also know of a man personally who has been wheelchair bound (previously perfectly healthy) when being vaxxed against whooping cough. He thought her was doing the right thing for his family. I know 'the science is settled' brigade is often dishonest and don't report the full facts. Personally I would still choose to be vaccinated against some diseases but am still sceptical. As I mentioned the so called gw 'scientist are into deceit up to their eyeballs. I just hope medicine is not the same.

Runner your last post, not being a smart a ,is exactly the reason this thread exists
Yes fathers mothers want some thing to blame
And yes they blame vaccination
But that is the very heart of this debate science has proven them wrong
Right now HUNDREDS of once anti Vaxxers will tell you they wish they got the kids protected
Because they became ill
Question, why did Polio vaccine not harm millions
How did Cholera get nearly wiped out
IS IT TRUE Polio is making a come back because some people in some parts of the world will not vaccinate
Some conspiracy's are in fact powered by idiots intent on? harming them selves and their kids