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The Forum > General Discussion > Should some criminals pay the costs of imprisonment?

Should some criminals pay the costs of imprisonment?

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Eddie Obeid, a name that chills me, owes 7 million dollars, the costs awarded against him after court appearances, and over $600.000 in forforted pension payments, should the tax payers be made to pay? he has the assets why him and any one who has assets, do we not make them pay?
Posted by Belly, Monday, 9 July 2018 12:14:41 PM
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Why should we the victims of crime pay to feed prisoners? is it ok for them to walk free still having a fortune in the bank? law is not set in stone, we do not have to forever do things as they have always been done
Posted by Belly, Monday, 9 July 2018 4:26:17 PM
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Dear Belly,

You've asked a fair and valid question. However I think
it probably all depends what they are charged with
and what sort of sentence they are given. I think it
all depends on the letter of the law - which the courts
follow. Also, the money that some of these people have is
probably well hidden that you'd first have to find it,
to be able to get your hands on it.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 9 July 2018 7:16:37 PM
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I think first & foremost it is compensation to the victim that the focus should be on. After, that the criminals can start repaying their stay in prison.
Many unfortunate old age pensioners don't have access to facilities that are presently available to prisoners. Prisoners can study for degees at no cost or so I'm led to believe whilst their victims are struggling to make ends meet.
In my opinion no defence lawyer should get paid before the victim of his/her client(s) are compensated.
Posted by individual, Monday, 9 July 2018 9:52:26 PM
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Belly, I have no hesitation in saying if Obeid, and others like him, have the ability to pay for their incarceration I see no reason why not. However in the majority of cases the first consideration should be to compensate the victims of crime through a fund set up for that purpose. Obeid owes a large debt to the taxpayers of NSW. Proceeds of crime should be confiscated, and if not able to be returned to the rightful owners then added to the victims fund.
The majority of criminals would not have the resources to pay for their crimes, so getting blood out of many might prove difficult.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 9 July 2018 10:19:06 PM
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While I used the NSW filth to highlight my view in no way do I want those who can not pay to do so,however just as tax is avoided by false gifts to family and other hiding places every effort should be made to get the cash from drug dealers high income thieves/offenders and such, trying hard to see any way my thoughts can be said to ignore the victims, separate issue surely, but as a victim of Oeid and his fellow rats, I would be more than pleased to see him pay, every cent
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 10 July 2018 7:36:48 AM
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Hey Belly,
Your idea has merit, but it's also a can of worms.
You could argue people with a million or more should pay for their stay, but then they would say they were treated unfairly.

My idea goes hand in hand with other ideas I have, namely a socialist base-level jobs system 'the job you have when you don't have a job' to make use of the 5% unemployment capitalism needs to provide a pool of workers and prevent wage growth.

Then that pool of workers does things to help government save money as well as reduce construction costs on major infrastructure.

It's hoped that the work they do offsets the welfare cost.

There would be a large national infrastructure project and as for the criminals, in the same way I will offer the unemployed 'double dole' for full time work in the socialist base-level system, I'd offer non-violent offenders the opportunity to halve their sentence in exchange for full-time work on the same infrastructure' projects.
You work a day, you get a day off your sentence.
Reduce government (and taxpayers) expenditure and get something back instead.

The problem with society it gives cash as welfare but does not offer a job instead.

How are you gonna pay for free healthcare and education or make it fairer for taxpayers under this system.

Let the people who want to work and help themselves do so.

You want to feed a man a fish everyday or simply allow him to fish instead?
And create a foolproof system so that it is so.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 10 July 2018 8:34:50 AM
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Armchair Critic: You say "You could argue people with a million or more should pay for their stay, but then they would say they were treated unfairly."

Most wealthy people (say those with 5M$ or more) would be justified in claiming this. The main reason why because they would have already paid for it from their own previous tax contributions. To use myself as an example: this year I'm to pay roughly $350,000 in tax, last year it was $270,000, the year before "only" $155,000 and before that $250,000 and on and on previously. Now, considering that it costs about $300* a day on average to keep someone in prison, if I was to be canned in the slammer for a decade or two I would have easily already paid for it.

*(if I recall correctly, this figure was bandied about a couple of years ago so might be a bit more now)
Posted by thinkabit, Tuesday, 10 July 2018 9:54:43 AM
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Arm Chair Critic true but have ever asked why some seem to own a revolving door when going to court? I think, firmly, the costs of confinement are behind at least some weak to poor results handed down,in every thing we need not do things as they always have been, this is an area ripe for change, and by the way the fault you find in a job for every one exists in all things, all we can hope for is some thing better never perfect
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 10 July 2018 11:27:01 AM
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My view is that if the criminal is under the age of 18, and can't pay, then the parents should pay, either from assets or from their incomes/welfare. After all, my two kids have not committed any crimes, which is because they were parented, not just left to their own devices or to entertain themselves.

As for adults, then yes, they should pay, regardless of whether or not they have assets or incomes, because they ought to know the consequences of their crime.

User pays all the way.
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 10 July 2018 11:44:21 AM
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NO.

Imprisonment is such a cruel, idiotic and inhumane thing that it should not be further encouraged. Unless one is truly and currently dangerous to society, let them be detained in their own home (or a relative's), then naturally they will be paying their own living expenses.

If the issue is to get criminals out of our streets and those criminals have money, then let that money pay for some third-world country to accept them as immigrants and for a one-way air-ticket there, never to return.

Perhaps fines are not up to date? If so, then they should be raised, but they should not be linked with imprisonment and in any case, let no one have to pay for a service they did not request.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 10 July 2018 1:10:48 PM
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Yuyutsu no way the average person could think as you do, prison is a self defense thing much needed to protect the victims, some criminals will reoffend no matter what, see no advantage in trying to get money out of someone without any, but far too many have more than enough and why should we pay, take the nsw filth, those who used a position in government to make millions, we are their victims,twice over if we pay while they keep their riches
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 10 July 2018 3:06:39 PM
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Hi there YUYUTSU...

You say prison is such a cruel and inhuman idea, it should not be further encouraged. You'd prefer they'd be confined to their own home and therefore pay their own way. What happens if the original crime was perpetrated in the offenders home, against one of the family members, what do we do there?

If we do away with prisons, those people who've been sentenced for serious crime and who don't have homes, or others who've come from dislocated families, where do they go? No YUYUTSU, prisons are needed without a doubt. I realise you're a very strong supporter of hanging (capital punishment), but not all miscreants can be put to death, now can they. Most definitely, we do need our gaols.
Posted by o sung wu, Tuesday, 10 July 2018 5:23:01 PM
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In the general case, this seems like a very complicated legal area with all sorts of arguments I haven't even considered.

But in the specific case of Eddie Obeid? Take the bastard for everything he's got, and then a bit more. Does the man still have two kidneys? Because if he does, we could have one of those out and sell it on the black market. The price of a kidney is piddlingly small amount compared to the mountain of debt Obeid is responsible for, but it's better than nowt.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 10 July 2018 5:48:09 PM
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Obeid was one of the unlucky crooks because he got caught. What about the hundreds if not thousands of legal crooks rorting within the Public Service every day of the year ? I suppose they're protected by the head Domino who is propped up by the others to prevent falling over & taking them all out with him. Obeid was obviously pushed the other way.
Going back to the topic, the compensation for victims has never been a priority but it must be made a priority asap. As I said earlier, no payment for the defence lawyer until the victim has been compensated.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 10 July 2018 7:00:04 PM
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Hey rehctub,
I can't argue with your logic.
There's no reason (in principle at least) why people who don't commit crimes should foot the bill for those that do.

Hey Toni,
US$27000 apparently (for a kidney) but a lot less if you microfinance someone in a third world country a good deal on a sewing machine (with not so good interest rates); and then they fail to repay the money for the sewing machine and you take their kidney.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 10 July 2018 7:25:00 PM
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//US$27000 apparently (for a kidney)//

I'm not going to ask how you came by that knowledge... I may already be on watch list as it is. About an hour ago I sent a text to mate containing the words 'Mohammed' and 'jihad'. It was sent in the context of the phrase 'Durka durka durka, Mohammed jihad'. If you don't understand, watch the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIlG9aSMCpg&t=49s

But those two words in the same text... I'm bound to have thrown up a few red flags. I expect I'll have Mr. Potato-Head Dutton knocking on my door with his goons any minute now.

Although I think that when he does he'll discover, much to his dismay, that we Irish are well versed in how to deal with potatoes - and even half spud, half man, half massive cock monsters.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 10 July 2018 10:46:57 PM
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Dear O Sung Wu,

«What happens if the original crime was perpetrated in the offenders home, against one of the family members, what do we do there?»

They could go to live with a relative or a friend, or a charity could provide a place, or they could rent a place. As a last resort, the state could let them rent cheap small shacks in the outback, but most likely then, private investors would take up this business opportunity anyway.

«No YUYUTSU, prisons are needed without a doubt.»

Only when someone is still dangerous, to prevent them from doing more harm - and even then, not before offering them the death penalty as a humane alternative.

«I realise you're a very strong supporter of hanging (capital punishment)»

Not as punishment, but as an option anyone could choose in order to avoid the dreadful prospect of prison.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 10 July 2018 11:52:34 PM
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Well we have prisons, we always will have them, by far the majority would have it no other way,taking body parts? same as above, we are after all not China Obied?one of thousands who can pay and should pay the future will not stand still, it will bring changes to every thing,and prisons and the length of time a criminal stays will change too,making offenders pay, twice if you like, may well be part of that change
PS Obied infested my party, he had others in that party who never got caught, some did, for criminal acts while in office I truly think he should never be released, and every cent he made by those actions should be reteaved by government
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 7:51:02 AM
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Hi (again) YUYUTSU...

I'm sure you're a really nice human being, with a good heart and forgiving soul, and where possible, you wouldn't harm anyone, if it could be helped. Unfortunately not all people are like you. For this reason, we need to deal with some members of our community in a much harsher way and in a much harsher environment.

It's for this reason we need gaols, gaols of all types - starting with those, that are classified as open institutions, right up to Maximum Security. Those gaols needs to be staffed with all manner of men & women; from the compassionate, to the real hard-headed screw who might well knock you for six, if you show him any real 'attitude'. At those tough gaols they have men with powerful rifles, who will without doubt, shoot you dead, should you attempt to escape. If for some reason, you do make good your escape, then the police who will undoubtably shoot you, if you fail to give yourself up?

So as you can see my good compassionate friend, all strata's of law-enforcement, complement each other. Unlike the domino effect, if one part of the process fails, usually the others try to take up the 'slack' as it were. Hope this helps YUYUTSU.
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 10:32:50 AM
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Prisons, if we should or should not have them avoids the question, that being should criminal who have the money pay for time served there or us, in the end their victims
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 11:28:02 AM
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In reality BELLY you can't even extract money from the average crim. for their fines now. That's why many of them go to gaol in the first place, in order to cut out their fines, at x amount of dollars per day! So how on earth are you going to make these miscreants pay for their Room & Board ? A nice thought no doubt, but one devoid of any reality I'm afraid.
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 12:08:59 PM
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Belly,
Be aware that there are persons that oppose your view on this issue.

Just because a person has wealth or assets does not mean that wealth was obtained illegally or associated with a crime the person has committed. Therefore if the person was made to pay for the cost of imprisonment it would be penalizing him twice for the same crime, whereas a person with less wealth would get less penalty. Where and how would you draw the line?

The same argument is used against advocates for deportation of non-citizen criminals. Those against deportation say that we are penalizing non-citizens twice for the same crime.

Something to think about.
Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 1:49:18 PM
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o sung wo Bango I have zero doubt you both are right,100% but governments, if willing can bring about changes,think with me here *do you think the costs of confinement some times play a roll in questionable sentencing?* if your answer is yes then why not try?yes we have criminals who will avoid it, or try to, remember in my state, shamefully, a Minister went to prison, for granting early release from prison,after taking bribes, two a Knight, Minister for police, did so in Queensland, room exists for change.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 2:54:41 PM
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Hi there BELLY ol' chap...You are right of course. Your trouble is my friend you're too highly principled, and you're an honourable individual to go with it. The sort of miscreants we're dealing with here, are totally unscrupulous in both their dealing with their fellow human beings and with their individual government responsibilities viz. Taxation, and dare I say, Social Security.

There's a Sheriff in Arapaho County, in the State of Nevada in the US who runs his gaol very much like a Prison Camp. Attiring the inmates in the colour pink, and charging them or their families a modest daily rate for room & board, only those who are not destitute of course. Seems to be working OK, therefore any Govt. with a bit of 'ticker' could give it a go I suppose?
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 3:49:15 PM
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Funny how this important thread gets no flak from the standard resident anti-decency brigade ?
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 7:04:47 PM
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o sung wo, yes I know about that sheriff, have watched two docos about him,in the end he gets results, but again I am confronted that many do not share my view we can reform anything, if we truly want to, and a system that forces offenders to pay, for confinment, seems fairer than we the victims footing the bill, prison reform? a whole knew subject, but increased education while in prison? close continuing monitoring after release? it could go on and on a place to live and a job, before release, for me a system that by having set in stone sentences must one day end our courts contributing to our soft justice failures
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 12 July 2018 8:16:25 AM
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'morning to you Belly...

Idealistically, you theory has much merit. No! It's got tremendous merit! However it would never get past the first reading in Parliament for many reasons. Chief among them, is your idea is so very novel, and visionary and dare I say impractical, therefore no political party would give it ago, because of the political apathy and inertia they all suffer from.
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 12 July 2018 11:45:10 AM
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o sung wo in the end it is us, the average voter, who is the reason we get politicians and movements that are afraid of real change, if ANY party put such as this forward as an answer right now, the other side, more interested in being elected than our good, would oppose it, media, wrongly thinking even close to a majority of us are interested in PC would blacken it as inhuman, still one day such a policy will be considered, and the outlandish revolving door our justice system is will change
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 12 July 2018 1:28:02 PM
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I honestly hope you're right Belly I really do. But with our current crop of 'no hoper's' that we've got in Parliament at the moment, we might be in for a very long wait. Take it easy BELLY ol' son.
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 12 July 2018 3:21:04 PM
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Even on the side a chose to be part of politics has become bland,I sometimes get the view they all take us for granted, however there are contributing factors, both side to get anything passed in the senate must deal with parties that ,at best get one in nine votes,so real reform is hard,we have however had good leadership from both sides, it is my view they will come again, in both parties, reform is full of promise not threats
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 12 July 2018 4:30:21 PM
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Belly,
Even though you disagree with my views I like to offer you an idea regarding the bland thing of choosing a side.
I decided a couple of years ago that it is pointless to support either ALP or LNP.
I feel much better about it all now except that little festering, unreachable pimple that are the Greens.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 12 July 2018 7:34:13 PM
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Dear O Sung Wu,

«Unfortunately not all people are like you. For this reason, we need to deal with some members of our community in a much harsher way and in a much harsher environment.»

Unfortunately, the law does not distinguish between the good and the bad, the soft and the hard - ask Foxy, the chief OLO ideologist and spokeswoman for the power of the state, the rule of law and "equality before the law", as she wrote: «I think it all depends on the letter of the law - which the courts follow.»

The bible says "eye for an eye" [Exodus 21:24] and so the question was raised: "what if the offender only has one eye?", then they would become completely blind, suffering much more than their victim...

Yes, for some, prison could be a kind of a holiday, especially for the baddies, but for the goodies it is an unimaginable horror. Good people, myself included, suffer nightmares about being dragged to jail. Anyone can make a mistake, but some get to prison without even making one, just recently we heard about someone who was imprisoned for 20 years for a crime he did not commit. Worse still, the state has the ability to legislate in such a way that even the most benign things that good people do can overnight become "crimes" in the eye of the law (real historical example: living one's life peacefully and failing to enlist to go to war in Vietnam). The state can even legislate against morals, conscience and religion - and nothing can stop it!

Is it worth, for the sake of getting rid of criminals, say the 5% who are real baddies, to have 95% of the population who are essentially good and honest, live in constant anxiety, uncertainty and helplessness?

I say that the damage to our health, quality of life and well-being that results from the fear of prison, is worse than the damage done by criminals. The "cure" is worse than the disease!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 12 July 2018 11:11:54 PM
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Individual I understand, you may remember the theme I live with is * while I live I grow* pinched it from a tree on top of the Razor back mountain,we change as we age, the youth that once thought, briefly thankfully, Communism was the answer is now an embarrassment to this older me,long ago my *my party right or wrong* suffered injury and never recovered, this pragmatic me knows no party can ever be all the things we want it to be, no leader can be other than the party, single issue parties, small ones, senate blackmailing ones, in my view are road blocks to democracy and in the end exist to blackmail the majority,BUT both sides, in both the Trump era and after it, will be batter lead than today
Posted by Belly, Friday, 13 July 2018 7:38:58 AM
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Wot! no free incarceration?
Our rights are being slowly eroded.....
where are the unions when you need them?
Posted by Special Delivery, Friday, 13 July 2018 8:43:16 AM
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hopefully unions would agree with my view, but in truth like quite a few in this federal government some who come from that group would be in prison.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 13 July 2018 11:46:10 AM
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Hi there YUYUTSU...

I've told those who I've arrested; there's only two basic 'predicaments' in gaol - survive or perish. Most survive, by yielding to the unofficial gaol rules, established by the 'gaol heavies'. Those who're fearful, need protection, though an ultimate sign of weakness. The fact you may also be a 'dog' or a 'lagger' (you betray other prisoners; to Police). To commit such an unspeakable crime, is an automatic death sentence in gaol - thus the prison heavies put the 'dog' on you.

Once that happens, despite being on protection, you'll suffer all manner of verbal abuse & threats. Until after some time things 'may' settle down and you're allowed to mix in normal population once more. If however, your crime has been committed against a 'heavy' (you may've 'given him up' in the past), and he's been transferred to another gaol, for 'your' protection; it's possible his network, will still get you, as proven over again.

The last job I did (as case officer) was at Parramatta Gaol. A former gaol heavy had a 'blue' with another gaol heavy. He was placed in a cell occupied by another pretty tough bloke, but certainly no heavy. On 'let go' (0700hrs) the next morning, the Officer opened the cell door, only to find the cell floor awash with blood, with a saturated towel laid against the cell door.

One inmate was awake, but remained in his top bunk; while this 'gaol heavy' was laying in his bottom bunk, entirely covered up by his blanket. After several commands to get up, the Officer pulled the blanket back only to find the inmate was 'headless'. During the night our friend decided to decapitate our mate for 'disrespecting' him in one of the gaol yards, even though the victim was a 'heavy'. His head was found rolled under his bottom bunk with his eyes staring ahead in some amazement! Probably in the realisation he was no longer a 'heavy' just headless!

No YUYUTSU, gaol's not a great place to be. Best you stay out of the place if you can my friend?
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 13 July 2018 1:24:26 PM
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That seems good advice o sung wo but so very many make little effort to do that, crime is always the default for some and I doubt that will change.
my state even today is unmasking very corrupt conduct in local government and if justice has its way more prison time will be the result,we should while punishing the offenders look at new ways to make return offending less likely
Posted by Belly, Friday, 13 July 2018 5:05:25 PM
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Dear O Sung Wu,

Thanks to your reply I am really distraught and unlikely to be able to sleep tonight, or I will scream and wake up in cold sweat.

What I now need to calm me down and help me sleep peacefully, is a cyanide pill in case they ever try to arrest me, so I can bite on it before they are able to take me into the place of horrors you described.

So admittedly you were serving a body of people (the state) that does such horrendous things to people, including good, honest innocent people who either made an honest mistake, or acted harmlessly in accordance with their good conscience and religion when these just happened to conflict with that body's legislation, or who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Aren't you ashamed for having supported such a bloody institution?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 13 July 2018 5:12:50 PM
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Hi there YUYUTSU...

Am I ashamed? Not a bit my friend. The good honest souls, who you so quaintly put it, who make one minor error in there lives; rarely ever get a custodial sentence. If you wish evidence of that, just listen to talk-back radio, and hear the confected complaints of the good righteous people, lamenting the fact that so & so have got off too lightly, or something similar?

My friend, perhaps you should (with respect) pull your head out of your fundamental orifice and have a good look around you, to see what's happening in society. Have a nice evening YUYUTSU.
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 13 July 2018 5:40:12 PM
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Yuyutsu please let me say sorry for what I am about to tell you yet again, I find your views impossible to believe are shared by many, yes you are in all probability a good person, but reality demands we understand Joe and Jane average, while not committed to much at all, want to be safe from criminals, a world that can not give them that, that in fact refuses to, is never going to exist
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 14 July 2018 7:39:43 AM
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Dear O Sung Wu,

But who is to say which is an error, which is a minor error and which is a major error?
It is that same gang who are legislators-judges-and-executers.

Following one's conscience and religion is not an error.

Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is an error one usually cannot avoid.

---

Dear Belly,

Just like Joe and Jane average, I too want to be safe from criminals.

So who are the biggest criminals?

Here is a gang which:
1) is so powerful that you cannot escape or hide from them.
2) nobody can challenge them.
3) make any rules as they please about things which everyone must or must not do and demand that you follow them. These might well include rules that conflict with your values, conscience and/or religion.
4) if you fail to follow their rules, they lock you up in horrific conditions, including as described by O Sung Wu.
5) if you manage to flee from them for awhile, then as O Sung Wu mentioned, they shoot you (in which case, if their bullets kill you then you are better off, but chances are you only get wounded, then you are both incapacitated AND incarcerated).
6) they can change their rules at any time and failing to know about the changes is no excuse.
7) occasionally they might lock you up in those horrific conditions even when you did not break their rules.

Yes, there are of course other criminals too, but whom should Joe and Jane Average fear more?

«I find your views impossible to believe are shared by many»

Do Joe and Jane Average have no values, conscience and religion?
Or perhaps they are sedated to the point of getting their priorities wrong!
What sedates them? perhaps this "talk-back radio" which O Sung Wu mentioned? or even stronger drugs like television?

Perhaps unusual nowadays, but I just want to live my own life, rather than through the eyes and ears of others, this way I am awake, not sedated and able to call a spade a spade!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 14 July 2018 8:22:12 PM
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yuyutsu fair go mate! your views are out there and you must expect others will differ, first no God ever existed, yes brilliant humans set out rules to live by in every faiths book, also put some truly awful stuff in them,yes you seem to want to help every one, even me maybe, but have you seen a grandmother bashed because she would not hand over her purse? if the world existed as you want it to we would not need prisons or police, it never did and never will however
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 15 July 2018 8:48:03 AM
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Hi there YUYUTSU...

Are you living in a land of 'make believe' or something? For your benefit I'll again, try to articulate some simple answers to your questions my 'worried friend'.

(i) To receive a custodial sentence these days; especially for a first timer, even given the offence might be of a serious nature, it's not automatic, despite what you might think. The judiciary try where possible, to keep people out of gaol, if for no other reason, than a fiscal imperative.

(ii) Gaol's are tough places. And if you're sent to gaol, you'll need to completely re-access your thinking, together with your values. Best advice; keep your head down and your mouth shut. There's no impediment to practicing your religion in gaol. But you must remember, you're in a place were societies worst are kept, for the protection of the entire community. So don't expect to come across too many of your fellow (religious) brethren, in Gaol. They're the exception rather than the rule.

(ii) Gaols have towers and catwalks along different parts of the walls. In, and on those Towers and catwalks, there are trained Prison Officers, each armed with a Ruger .223 (5.56mm NATO) calibre Rifle, and carrying a Glock 17, 9mm pistol (for personal protection) in a holster on his belt. If anyone attempts to escape lawful custody, they're liable to be shot, and by any measure, they're very likely to die. The .223 Ruger is a Military calibre, and very effective. That's why the NSW Department of Correction's chose that particular weapon and calibre.

You say 'they' change the rules, and there's no excuse, for not knowing of those changes - YUYUTSU under British law, 'Our Laws' there's no excuse for ignorance of the law. Your claim that you may be locked up even though you've not broken 'their' rules...? That's aberrant rubbish Who do you refer to; by 'they & 'their's' - 'Big Brother' perhaps? Have you been reading Geo. ORWELL'S '1984' by chance YUYUTSU? Anyway my friend, I wouldn't think for a moment, there'd be any likelihood of you ever going to gaol.
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 15 July 2018 1:19:48 PM
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o sung wo your post was a lot nearer to reality than yuyutsu who may well be a good fella
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 15 July 2018 5:34:40 PM
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Hi there BELLY...

I dunno mate, perhaps our mutual friend YUYUTSU, is somewhat of an idealist. If not, one who views his world, through rose coloured glasses. Preferring not to see the seamy side of life, through those rose coloured glasses - who'd really know? Bye for now.
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 15 July 2018 5:40:41 PM
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Dear O Sung Wu,

Yes I have read Orwell's "1984", I don't remember exactly when, only that it was before 1984 and that it disturbed me greatly ever since. Digital technology is leading us this way.

I believe you that "To receive a custodial sentence these days... The judiciary try where possible, to keep people out of gaol",
but as you say, this is "these days" and times do change. All it could take for example is a financial-recession/depression, a war or a massive terrorist act, then judiciary attitudes along with the valuing of freedom and dignity might change drastically.

---

Dear Belly,

«o sung wo your post was a lot nearer to reality than yuyutsu»

But not for this miserable guy:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-13/murder-charge-against-henry-keogh-dropped/6938622
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 15 July 2018 11:59:24 PM
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Yuyutsu I think I have met folk like you on and of all my life, well meaning hoping that others care as much as you do, in the end good people but failing the reality test, my morning like every other one in to the days news papers is full of criminal acts and pain,if you and I o sung wo, too, could only talk to the young and have them listen, about the different people they will be in their future, could be if they considered that now? we could avoid sending them to prison, but reality stops that dream
Posted by Belly, Monday, 16 July 2018 7:10:34 AM
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Jail doesn't work in Australia because there is no jail, they're all more like motels. Gym rooms, reading rooms, TV, internet, studies etc etc.
Once they actually build proper jails, criminals will reconsider.
Posted by individual, Monday, 16 July 2018 7:43:45 PM
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indy tell us how you know what they are like, from the inside? how does your view impact on this thread? should we flog them as well as make them pay? I remain convinced our justice system should be able to make the better off pay for time served, could include even the costs of catching them but will be happy if we get part of my wish
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 17 July 2018 7:44:30 AM
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Dear Individual,

One day it could be you or one of your family, possibly for a crime you/they never committed, thus cannot reconsider.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 17 July 2018 9:00:07 AM
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Hi there Individual...

I understand precisely what it is you're saying about how our gaols are going soft. And I agree with you. There's no real punishment by sending a recidivist to prison. Other than the deprivation of his liberty, which can, in some small measure, 'cramp his style' somewhat.

Unfortunately my friend, as long as I've been in the coppers (32+ years), the official mantra has always been, 'a person is sent to prison as a punishment, not 'FOR' punishment'. Which means governments can virtually allow anything (within reason) into a gaol that will keep prisoners quiet, and settled.

It often remains within the purview of the Corrective Services Minister, or the Commissioner, what Inmates can get of can't get. Often unintentionally putting at risk the lives of Prison Officers who have to work there. I might add, it's generally accepted, the current Commission is a real dud, and should never have been appointed.
Posted by o sung wu, Tuesday, 17 July 2018 11:19:02 AM
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