Another sickening expose of cruelty to sheep on 60 Minutes. When the hoo hah about 'poor farmers' starts again, remember this: live exports make up a mere 5% of the sheep meat market. We are merely pandering to the requirements of a rotten, cruel religion.

OMG! I totally agree... BAN LIVE EXPORTS!

It seems no-one can do it without massive deaths and torturous conditions for the animals, and, we should simply accept it is not acceptable to treat animals so inhumanely.

As to linking it to the muslim religion only...Have you ever been on a farm?

Slitting the throats of animals occurs all throughout Australia, WITHOUT the pre-stunning of the beast like happens in abattoirs, on most farms.

You can single out the Muslims but the same things happens in Australia on good old animal loving anglo-saxon Christian heritage farms..also.

Sad but true... I have seen it!

Have you ever been on a farm? I mean a big one, usually called a station? I drove by one and noticed literally hundreds of dead sheep on the sides of the road. I asked the owner what happened. He said you drove sheep and a certain number die. Now he was quite sanguine as it was his money rotting on the roadside but he would know!
Our problem is the inner city idiots and Walt Disney. People think sheep are people not herbivores with a herd instinct and a short life-span.
Also the shipping company loses money if their cargo dies! The current minister is a total loser pandering to the Disney fans. Just keep out of it!.
Understand, you do not know, sheep are not people and taking the livelihood of fellow Australian so you can "virtue signal" is despicable.

Dear JBowyer,

I was on a property a few days ago and discussed the issue with a third generation sheep farmer. He was utterly disgusted with what had occurred. I will be sure to tell him you think he is a Disney princess.

Sheep, like most animals, like to lie down at the end of the day.
I didn't see any room for them to lie down on the ship, probably they have to stand the whole way as with some lying down, the rest can trample them.
I know that on the railway sheep were packed in to stop the possibility of trampling and it was part of the job of the train drover to go along, at stops, to prod any that were down, back onto their feet.

Personally, I'd stop live exports of animals that could be slaughtered here.

I'm surprised at the dismissive attitude some have about the well being of animals - even if they are off to slaughter. Animals are sentient beings and we are responsible for how we treat them.

I am well aware, JB, that sheep are not people. I am not an animal lover either, and I eat meat. But needless suffering should not be OK, and live exports constitutes needless suffering. Putting a stop to it was the only decent thing Gillard did. Most meat to most of our customers is exported as carcasses. If Muslim countries want to kill animals themselves, they should ensure that they carry enough for themselves to do so. Sheep and goats are well suited to their crappy countries. It is not the killing of animals I object to, it's the inhumane transporting of them I find objectionable. I would also suggest that all of the sheep tossed over the side were not dead either. Thankfully, the ship in question has been banned from loading more sheep in SA for the time being. I hope the agriculture minister sticks to his guns, and I respect the courage of the young man who brought the barbarity to our attention. He will never work in his chosen profession again and, as a Pakistani, it's odds on that he is a Muslim.

No matter how much I support trade and Australian farmers, I believe live transport of animals should be banned.

I do not want to see live exports banned, but I think we should insist on much higher standards. For a start, air conditioning should be mandatory.

Why on earth do the exporters of live animals export
into a ho,t steamy, humid, summer season, enclosed
in air-tight, unventilated ships, when records show that
animals will die in the thousands. Exporting into the
Northern Winter would resolve the problems.

The fault lies with us, no one else. And it's time for
the government to intervene and set the standards to
prevent this from happening.

Foxy,

"Why on earth do the exporters of live animals export
into a ho,t steamy, humid, summer season, enclosed
in air-tight, unventilated ships,..."

The ships are neither airtight nor unventilated if they were the crew would die in the toxic fumes, but that said, you're otherwise spot on.

To all,

Have a dekko at this: http://secure.animalsaustralia.org/take_action/live-export-shipboard-cruelty/?ua_s=BLE.com

and then say that Australia's name is not sullied by the live export sheep trade.

not quite as bad as the slaughter of unborn babies.

Dear Is Mise,

I just exaggerated to draw attention to the problem.

Besides, so many animals in tight spaces - generate a
lot of body heat, excrement, urine, and they trample
on each other due to lack of space - and breathe in
whatever available oxygen there may be and emit CO2.
Can't be good.

Exporting in cooler conditions would alleviate the heat
and humidity problem.

You got it in runner, well done!

:-))

do you think anyone connected would be happy its cost them money

Well done Foxy! You also got in the sly dig about CO two! I give up, Disney Princesses, global warmer and let's get rid of a nice little export industry and prove how good you are.
Personally if had my way when you sold an animal it would be the buyer responsibility after that. Mind you our Aboriginal artists want a cut of every sale after they have sold it so I can see where you are coming from. Did you see my own little dig?

Pilot,

In the days of sail, the animals were treated better.
Conditions weren't good but apparently better than today's live export ships.

See:
http://boundforsouthaustralia.com.au/journey-content/livestock-on-board.html
and later in steam,
http://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/nz-first-world-war-horses/transporting-horses-from-nz

Dear JB,

You give me too much credit.

It wasn't meant as any sort of a dig.

I simply was too tired to type carbon dioxide.

Anyway, I'm not for banning the industry.

I'm simply suggesting not to do it in hot,
humid weather - where the conditions are
unbearable for everyone.

Your dig? Nope, I must have missed it. But then
I normally don't look for that sort of thing.
Or I usually prefer to ignore it, unless of course
it persists. Then it depends on my mood at the time. (smile).

Now, having watched the 60 Minutes video, it shows a disgusting situation. I wonder how many differing companies are involved in the live export of animals. The show only related to one ship/company, not the whole industry.

Second, I note that Animals Australia and Lyn White were involved. This is the mob involved in the story about cruel treatment of animals in Indonesia, which resulted in our then PM (Gillard) shutting the whole industry down, which caused massive losses to Northern cattle producers. It has been alleged later that White and/or her cohorts paid Indonesian workers to be cruel to animals while they were filming. I am surprised that people here accept this portrayal on face value. I would not trust or use any material from AA or White.

The current affairs programs are masters at slanting, twisting and manipulating stories to show what they want. I am sure some will recall the untrue stories and portrayals about kangaroo harvesting. Untrue stories, by activists, have caused major damage to the fur trade in the past

Dear Banjo,

Quit your bloody whinging mate. Howard didn't ban the trade for a few months like Gillard but for years to many countries, in fact he steadfastly refused to reopen live cattle exports to Egypt at all. It was only when Rudd bowed to pressure that it was resumed. Howard was also the one responsible for ensuring vets were put on board the ships, it seems not to have been enough in this instance and more strict enforcement will have to be put in place to control these exporters.

Why aren't you bagging Howard? He had far more impact on the live cattle industry than Gillard. But no not a bloody peep. Typical.

To totally ban live exports means a Overseas buyer turns to another Country to source live animals. Australian exporters loose sales and Australia then has to find markets for processed meats. However those markets we loose demand live animals. We then have to cut into already established processed meat markets supplied by other Countries. To have a build up of live animals in Australia without markets would cause hardship to Australian producers.

The live export trade should be banned completely. Time and again cruelty in both transit and in the overseas slaughter houses has been highlighted by the Australian media. I suspect much of what has been aired is only the tip of the iceberg.

ttbn "I am not an animal lover" did you ever have a pet? Dog, cat, saber-tooth tiger, did you not love your pet?

Foxy, Because I don't think there is any winter season when you are crossing the equator. In Saudi Arabia there are two seasons, hot and hotter.

Issy, glad you have come on board.

Runner, I oppose abortion as much as anyone, but you seem to equate everything to the "slaughter of unborn babies" So to be different, how does it equate to the buggering of children by the religious?

Pilot, they have already done their sums, and worked out how many deaths are allowable to make the whole barbaric trade the most cost effective and therefore the most profitable. Its the African slave trade revisited, except instead of using humans we are substututing sheep.

Banjo, like the banning of the live export of African slaves caused massive losses to Southern cotton producers. The banning of live exports of cattle caused massive losses to Northern cattle producers. Crap had been alleged! By who you and the like minded.

Steele, could that be because Banjo is still smitten with Little Johnny

' So to be different, how does it equate to the buggering of children by the religious?' the same as the buggering of children by atheist and Indigeneous Paul. Disgusting. Just ask some of the bbc staff.

Paul,
You can spew your propaganda all over but all responsible and truthful people will not deny that Gillards stopping the cattle exports caused massive damage to our Northern cattle producers and other people. It is correctly called unintended consequences. Responsible people consider the effects on others not just their own ideals, but not the greens. You want to shut industries down, live exports and the coal industry and do not care less about those workers and others that rely on industry for a living. so much for greens humanity.

In this case there is no other market for our old castrated male sheep. How do we dispose of them otherwise, the unintended consequences!

What I am saying is that people should not just accept what the current affairs programs portray as they have a very dubious reputation as far as unblemished truth is concerned. Do not be too quick to condemm but let the dust settle, then evaluate. The Minister is correct in ordering his own investigation before taking action.

Dear Banjo,

So jamming them on poorly ventilated boats to be processed overseas creates more jobs than processing them here? Don't be an idiot.

The Colac Meat Works near us exports about 80% of its output, a lot of it to middle east countries.

But many meat works are struggling with low supply because it is so much easier for these big, many foreign owned, agribusinesses to just ship the stock off for a quick buck.

You want less jobs in this country and should be brave enough to admit it.

Paul,

The greens are so feeble minded that they simply want to ban everything other than organic farming and renewables.

Banning live cattle exports was one of Juliar's singular idiot moves that ranked along with her carbon tax lie and screwed labor in rural areas for a decade.

SR,
I know you are not too bright but do not be a complete fool. You believe that sheep exporters do so because 'it is easier'? Come on, it is far easier after purchasse to send them direct to an abattoir. They export livestock because that is the requirement of the customer. A busnessman who thinks he can dictate what he will sell to his customers will go broke as the customers will go elsewhere. Fact is some require mutton on the hook and others require mutton on the hoof and there is little market for mutton in Aus.

The fact that we can dispose of our aged wool producing sheep is a vital part of keeping the wool industry viable. Your ignorance is profound.

Dear Banjo,

You wrote;

“The fact that we can dispose of our aged wool producing sheep is a vital part of keeping the wool industry viable. Your ignorance is profound.”

Good lord do you really think this is about getting rid of aged sheep? That little myth got blown out of the water way back in 1985.

“The original specification for export sheep was for old Merino wethers, that is four years or older”

“ithe average age of wethers shipped since 1981 has been less than three years with a growing proportion of sheep being less than eighteen months”

http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate/Significant_Reports/animalwelfarectte/exportlivesheep/~/media/wopapub/senate/committee/history/animalwelfare_ctte/export_live_sheep/04ch4.ashx

You my friend are pig ignorant about this issue and really need to go and do some research before posting anything else.

If you want the money bad enough...you perform whatever is asked of you....nothing's changed....just the wrapping....and the yapping on different days

A good thing about New Zealand: they cut out live exports years ago, and their lamb is much sought after in carcass form. I would like to see our customers refusing to take any of our meat until we stopped the cruelty of the whole dirty business of live exports: it is shameful and barbaric.

Shadow, you and others can misrepresent the Greens aims and objectives as much as you like, with such unsupported nonsense as "they (The Greens) simply want to ban everything other than organic farming and renewables", rubbish, where is your evidence? You along with the likes of the National Party have no concerned for the welfare of animals at all. You simply see them as a money making commodity to be cruelly exploited in the most horrendous and vile ways possible in pursuit of the almighty dollar.

On the Nationals, how could they have concern for sheep when their leader didn't have any concern for his wife when he was out bonking the office chick, at taxpayers expense.

ttbn and Is Mise, good to see. although we are politically divided, we are singing from the same song sheet on this one. How much you might deny it, you both are not entirely black, you have a little bit of green coming through, well done.

Yes, Paul, a little bit of green but no red.

There's a lot of talk about this - radio etc - and I will be contacting the new agriculture minister. I suggest everyone who is against live exports does the same thing.

Paul,

Not a speck of Green in me. You are making your usual assumption that you and the Greens, and only you and the Greens, have 'good' feelings. Come to think of it, I haven't seen di Nasty or anyone from the official Greens coming in on this.

I am just off to post a letter to federal agriculture minister, David Littleproud, at PO Box 6022, Parliament House, Canberra, 2600. He can also be contacted on Facebook and Twitter.

We should all be contacting politicians on matters that concern us. Just voting every three years to keep them doing the same thing they did the previous three years is not much help.

SR,
I did not say anything about other sheep, this is the way we dispose of our aged wool producing sheep. As there is virtually no market for mutton in Aus, all our wool producing sheep end up being exported either in cartons, on hooks or live on hoof. When overseas buyers cease to demand livestock the trade in live exports of sheep and other animals will cease. All you have to do is convince the consumers to buy sheep meat instead of live sheep. Piece of cake!

Until then, the consumers in other countries will obtain their requirements elsewhere if we stop live exports.

Banjo the only things SR understands are threats, insults and when that fails cry the victim. The mostly Arab countries taking live exports would totally ignore the SR's of this world.
It really annoys me when these do-gooders think they can lord it over people trying to make a living. Obviously not as much as some smarmy, posh little twat, virtue signalling politicians. As Keating famously shouted "get a job"!

I've heard enough. Those of you bagging live sheep export are just plain stupid and totally off topic. You really want cruelty? Stand guard one night on a farmers sheep paddock, if your lucky you might see a bunch of dogs or a fox and watch what happens. You green idiots and your mates are so lacking you think like little children. On the topic of sheep ship ventilation. Have you ever even seen a sheep ship, up close, or at all? Just like a sheep 'crate', the trucks that transport livestock, are 'slatted', not fully enclosed, they have to be, because just like the ships, the truck drivers have to, every so often, check the 'load'. They employ the same routine on a sheep ship. As for the weather debate. I can't believe you people did not think that if it's summer down under then it's winter up top. So if it's summer up top then it must be.......wait for it........... winter down under. So what have we learned today? If it's cold in one hemisphere, then it stands to reason it must be, what in the other hemisphere? HOT! Correct. BY George you guys catch on quick. So don't ask stupid questions. If a client has a particular request, whether it's personal religious or otherwise, the supplier quotes his price and the deal is done. Unless you goody-two-shoes are so concerned about the welfare of these animals, you appear to have all the time in the world, maybe you're uni students or just don't work and on the dole, then I'm sure the ships owners will let you go along with the sheep and take care of them and their welfare. Several good things will come of this idea. One is the animals will not die because you have these magical powers to make sure they don't and secondly, you will get an ocean cruise and see the world for nothing, and best of all we would be rid of some ignorant fu()wits for a while, and with any luck you won't return.

//Those of you bagging live sheep export are just plain stupid and totally off topic.//

The topic is 'Ban Live Exports'. I fail to see how discussing live exports counts as being totally off topic, but I'm not 'blessed' with your 'intellect'.

//You really want cruelty?//

No. That's kind of the point, ALTRAVing lunatic.

//Stand guard one night on a farmers sheep paddock, if your lucky you might see a bunch of dogs or a fox and watch what happens.//

What does this have to do with live exports?

TL your another moron like your mate P1405. Your off topic because it's not the exporting of the sheep that is the problem, it's the death of the sheep and how cruel it is, according to the experts on this topic.
Again you twat, you call the transport of any animal and subsequent death by non physical or painless means cruel. Why do you display such an ignorant and arrogant attitude when you know full well your stupid badgering like your mate Paul is futile, when you know very well what I mean. Attacks by dogs and foxes is cruel! Duh. Dying because of heat exhaustion is not cruel by comparison as they did not suffer a painful death by being torn apart and getting pieces of flesh ripped off them. Now that's bloody cruel. No dying by heat exhaustion is sad, not cruel!The dic' describes cruel as, 'willfully causing PAIN'. You and your bleeding heart rent-a-crowd moronic mates, stop picking the sh!t out of peoples comments when you have even less to offer and what you do offer is not worth reading. Now sh!thead enough of the name calling, I too can work up a barrage of words that will expose you for the sniveling little man that you are. Or is it that your not a man but a 15 year old rebelling against ANYONE and ANYTHING. Because that's what you sound like. Now play nice and if you have any questions ask them nicely and just imagine that everyone else out there is not there to p!ss you and Paul off, they are just commenting about something. OK?

//death by non physical or painless means//

//Dying because of heat exhaustion is not cruel//

//dying by heat exhaustion is sad, not cruel!//

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAKG-kbKeIo

ALTRAV,

As the person who started this topic, I would like to point out to you that the live export of sheep IS the topic; it is the ONLY topic, the actual killing of sheep has nothing to do with the topic. I would also like to point out that I am not a 'green idiot', as you appear to have taken me for; in fact, I am generally regarded as one of the more conservative posters on OLO.

Perhaps you might like to rethink your ill-considered abuse? You might also like to give thought to the fact that you might be locked-in, inhumane thug and extremist if you think people have to be green or left to object to cruelty to animals?

I have to say that, in this case, you have shown yourself to be an embarrassment to the conservative side of politics.

When it comes to money we are officially in the animal cruelty business.

Whistleblowers providing proof of cruelty are now subject to prosecution and Barnaby Joyce has made it abundantly clear that this government does not want to know about anything that might stand in the way of profit-making. If that video was shot on Australian soil the cameraman would be up on criminal charges.

As for the Gillard 2011 temporary halting of live exports, here are some forgotten facts.

It was done to prevent international cattle export boycotts which were a real possibility at the time.

2011 was a bad year for graziers, but that was due to the devastating drought followed by a severe wet season.
Total live cattle exported in the first quarter dropped 34.8% on the previous quarter, the lowest since December 2007.

But that collapse occurred TWO MONTHS BEFORE the live cattle ban.

Straight after the trade suspension the industry improved. In September 2011, cattle sold to Indonesia was the fourth highest monthly tally on record and total monthly value to all countries was the third highest.
Sales volumes to all countries also shot up after the ban - up 39.8% and prices also up from $838.82 to $950.71 per head.

It's always been about money and politicians are happy to score points over animal cruelty but only when it's to their electoral advantage.

Let's see how Turnbull and Co weasel their way out of this one, both at home and abroad.

I have lived on a farm down south and aboriginal communities up north and animal cruelty abounds in both places, except on farms it’s generally not intentional.
People tend to overlook the fact that live meat is essential in the markets we sell to overseas, not just for religious reasons but also because many of the buyers of this meat have no refrigeration and meat needs to be processed daily, which is only possible if the animal is alive.
Being transported by boat is really no different than being transported by truck and currently some animals spend days locked in trucks whilst being transported to markets.
Surely it is possible, in this day and age, to be able to provide the most humane means of transport we can, whilst still allowing the practise to continue.
But for those truly upset by the treatment of live animals on ships, I suggest you never watch footage of how those animals are treated by the people who buy them at the other end. I’m fairly stoic but even I was horrified at how these sheep were transported to people’s homes.

Big Nana, I was involved in the original trade delegation to Baghdad, I/we supplied the sheep crates (aka livestock transporting semi trailers) as part of the original and on-going live sheep export trade. Obviously it has been many years ago now. You are quite right in your point about how they are treated at their destination. I remember one example where a Mercedes turned up and a sheep was loaded into the boot, (trunk). This was not considered cruel to them, but merely the norm. In seeing that I was reminded of the story where an Aussy farmer bought a prize ram from the auctions. He put it in the back seat of his new Mercedes. Whilst refueling the attendant alerted him to the fact that the ram was tearing up his back seat with his horns. In response the farmer said, 'that's ok son, he's worth more than the car'. Different world, different priorities. To me they are both wrong but that is for them to decide. We are merely observers. And yes, money is the key driver to everything on earth. A statement which sickens me is 'for the greater good'. This is the politicians mantra, and it gives them a free pass to all manner of wrong decisions. I have been challenged by many and now by the author of the topic. He maintains the topic is live sheep export trade. He does not see that if the sheep ALL arrived alive, we would not have this discussion. He claims I am off topic by suggesting the topic is in fact the 'dead sheep or the dead sheep export trade'. I take a realistic view and say that right now this is the norm, and merely accept that, like employment, you can never expect 100% full employment and neither should you, unless you are in control of ALL parameters. It is immature and child-like in thinking that we can transport sheep without losses. I say to my detractors, 'GROW UP' or MOVE ON.

ttbn, I can also give as good as I get, in fact I can comeback with such abuse you have never heard, so tell the smart arses who replace their lack of intelligent comments with abuse so as to hide their inadequacies. How many times must I remind commentors, these are discussion forums, designed to exchange information in an attempt to arrive at the truth and learn something along the way. It has nothing to do with emotions. So if someone wants to start throwing abuse around, it's OK, I will respond in kind. Then I would like to get back to the topic. If the abuse persists then that person must be sanctioned because this is not the forum for such matters. If someone is offended by my comments, I don't care. If I have made a factual mistake, I would be greatful to being corrected as I am attempting to make a point with the correct facts. It is the reader who makes the decision to be offended. I will say it again; emotions have no place in discussions. They only contaminate a discussion and therefore the conclusion.

Dear ALTRAV,

Well here you are again using your broad range of endearing terms like morons, f-wits, idiots, little children, ignorant, on the dole, twat, sh!thead, and snivelling just to raise a few.

Let me see if I can earn my little gold star as one of your detractors.

Firstly let us acknowledge of your broad hatred of Aussies, something you have made abundantly clear on numerous occasions.

But far more seriously we should unpack your probable pathology. You have expressed zero empathy for the welfare of these animals, something that is a red flag for any decent psychologist or psychiatrist, and it speaks directly to either your intelligence or your psychopathic tendencies, or even both.

“There may be cognitive limits in the ability to take the perspective of others,” explains Hodson. In other words, the less intelligent you are, the harder it may be for you to put yourself in another’s shoes — and the more likely you are to hold prejudiced beliefs about other groups. If someone is unmoved by the plight of elephants shackled, beaten and forced to perform in circuses or of animals poisoned and blinded in laboratories, perhaps they similarly lack the ability to consider the animals’ point of view. The anecdotal evidence linking intelligence and empathy for animals is certainly intriguing. Some of the world’s greatest minds from throughout history — including Pythagoras, Leonardo da Vinci, Mohandas Gandhi and Leo Tolstoy — have been vegetarian.”
http://www.scoop.it/t/empathy-and-animals/p/1253541113/2012/02/20/lack-of-empathy-for-animals-linked-to-lower-intelligence

“The link between animal abuse and interpersonal violence is becoming so well established that many U.S. communities now cross-train social-service and animal-control agencies in how to recognize signs of animal abuse as possible indicators of other abusive behaviors.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/13/magazine/13dogfighting-t.html

You certainly show proclivities towards interpersonal violence, you have illustrated a singular lack of empathy for the animals involved, and you have vigorously attacked any posters who have raised concerns about their treatment.

Are you an idiot or a psychopath?

SR, now you see, you are the one we should all be concerned about. I have explained my case and I stand by my comments and opinions. Your problem and others like you is that you have not experienced life and all it's foibles. I told you I don't care what you think of me personally, it has no bearing on the facts or the topic of discussion. This is where I call you some of the most vial and put-downs I can conjure up; if I could be bothered. It's a given. When I call you and your lot out with words and names you obviously take offence to, look back at previous postings and you will see that it's in response to some morons attack on me. Now, let's deal with my empathy problem. I don't care what people said what about someone who has no empathy for animal cruelty. You are full of sh!t by attacking me in this way as I have said that what happens to these animals is SAD, not cruel. This is where I call you a name befitting your level of intellect and understanding on this particular comment. The topic is LIVE sheep export, not DEAD sheep export. What do you and your fairy mates expect? A 100% survival rate? If you do then I am justified in calling you whatever names I want for being so blatantly stupid and uninformed. So when you finally come to accept that sheep will die whether in a ship, in a paddock, in a holding pen or in a sheep crate, you will have learned something and gained another level of maturity. In the meantime shove your arrogant suggestions of some idiot academics and their studies. For the record, I'm not a violent man, never have been, but I will not stand idly by and accept some fools opinion of something they know NOTHING about. I do. Did you actually read my post about being part of the original live sheep delegation to Baghdad? Or were you suckling on your mothers teet at the time?

//People tend to overlook the fact that live meat is essential in the markets we sell to overseas, not just for religious reasons but also because many of the buyers of this meat have no refrigeration//

No refrigeration? Then let them eat vegetables.

There you go, problem solved.

//Surely it is possible, in this day and age, to be able to provide the most humane means of transport we can//

Of course it's possible. But that doesn't mean that live exporters will - unless the Government makes them. I don't think it's unreasonable for voters to tell the Government they would like to see such policies enacted.

I can understand Paul and SR wanting to ban live exports as their ideology supports anything that damages Australian industry. They support anything that is detrimental to our industry and economy.

I am a bit surprised that others call for the banning of live exports as this would adversely effect many industries. I can only think that they have not thought the matter through. Where is the evidence that this is an industry wide issue?

I do not think these same people would advocate the closing of all police services or defense services because there was misconduct at one station or unit. Nor would they want the closure of all aged care facilities because one nursing home failed its residents. Yet here we have one ship with allegations of failure of animal care and people are calling to shut the whole industry down. I am not aware of any evidence yet that suggests the same problems on other ships. Until then I will only support calls for penalties relating to this one ship.

People should put their emotions on hold and think rationally about the situation.

A correction:

//I don't think it's unreasonable for voters to tell the Government they would like to see such policies enacted.//

Further research suggests that the policies are already in place, and that better enforcement is what's required. I shall have to write a new letter to the Minister.

//It has nothing to do with emotions.//

//I will say it again; emotions have no place in discussions.//

Do you think if you keep repeating that long enough, it might come true?

It's just that it's not a very convincing proposition when your last four posts have consisted of nothing but an extended tantrum.

//It is immature and child-like in thinking that we can transport sheep without losses.//

Of course you're going to have occasional losses. Statistically, you will lose the odd sheep here and there to natural causes. If you took the same number of sheep as you put on an export ship and left them on a farm for the same period as the sheep were being transported, you'd expect losses from both groups (if it was a large enough group of sheep).

That's not what's happening on the live export ships. It's not the occasional sheep dying of some random sheep disease; it's large numbers of sheep, all dying from the same preventable causes, because the operators of the export ships are dodgy. The fact that there is no such thing as an immortal sheep does not imply that animal cruelty through negligence is acceptable.

Apparently it doesn't bother you that these people are operating outside the law, let alone the bounds of common decency. What a little rebel you are, ALTRAVing lunatic.

//If I have made a factual mistake, I would be greatful to being corrected as I am attempting to make a point with the correct facts.//

Liar.

//Your problem and others like you is that you have not experienced life//

So much for trying use correct facts, eh?

//What do you and your fairy mates expect? A 100% survival rate? If you do then I am justified in calling you whatever names I want for being so blatantly stupid and uninformed. So when you finally come to accept that sheep will die whether in a ship, in a paddock//

And if you expect that sheep in a paddock will suffer the same mortality rate as sheep exposed to criminal negligence on live export ships, are we justified in calling you whatever names we want for being so blatantly stupid and uninformed? Or will that constitute abuse and induce further tantrums?

//For the record, I'm not a violent man, never have been, but I will not stand idly by and accept some fools opinion of something they know NOTHING about.//

XD

Whatcha gonna do about it, princess? Cissy-slap us over the internet?

//I do.//

The evidence indicates otherwise.

//Did you actually read my post about being part of the original live sheep delegation to Baghdad?//

Yes, of course you were. We're all totally convinced by all your really believable claims, every single one of them. Why, every time you come up with a new one they become even more believable.

//Are you an idiot or a psychopath?//

Well he's obviously an idiot, Steele.

But yeah, when I read his posts demonstrating his blasé acceptance of cruelty to animals it certainly gave me pause to wonder - as other posts from him have previously - whether or not he actually suffers from anti-social personality disorder.

He certainly seems, at times, to be unburdened by that sense of right and wrong we call 'conscience' which most of us take for granted and whose absence is a key feature of ASPD.

But I suspect that what is a more probable explanation for his outlandish behaviour is just that he lacks basic social skills (possibly he's 'on the spectrum', as we like to call it these days) and that he hasn't quite grasped the difference between trolling lefties and coming across as a deeply disturbed loner at odds with commonly and broadly held standards of morality.

It is amazing the extent of stupidity and arrogance being demonstrated by the 'we know who'. Now I know you are just trouble makers, part of the far left rent-a-crowd. Your last act of irrelevance was just played out by challenging me on my statement of being part of the original delegation to Baghdad re; the live sheep export trade. If you need proof look up the archives and look for a Mr D Hughes a major sheep/livestock grower back when all this began. OH and BTW you smart arses, sheep dying is nothing new and NOT cruel. Sheep getting their throats ripped out by dogs and foxes and so on, IS! Go away and learn the difference, before you excrete any more sh!t from your mouths. As I said earlier, I won't stand by and listen to someone talking sh!t. Before you make unsubstantiated claims, you all grow up. I don't know what you people are on but trying to destroy an Aussy export based on some childish fantasy of cruelty is just plain stupid and is akin to gross vandalism and naivety. Grow up. You people are not to be taken seriously. Don't bother responding unless you want to be denigrated further.

//If you need proof look up the archives and look for a Mr D Hughes a major sheep/livestock grower back when all this began.//

Aren't you supposed to be a wog, ALTRAVing lunatic?

Hughes doesn't sound like a wog name.

Tony, you are just digging yourself a bigger and bigger hole. Now sunshine, shut-up, listen and learn. Now Mr Dave Hughes was the sheep station/farmer/owner. He headed the delegation along with the relevant govt rep and ministers. I was just one of the group who was part of the supply chain/infrastructure. Don't you watch TV when the govt makes a big deal of some new export or venture with/to another country. Now, got it? What have you done, previously or lately which has helped Australia's balance of payments/exports and so on. Yes I'm a wog, so what I'm supposed to sit back, bludge off the govt, collect the dole and completely destroy any form of self esteem and personal pride. No wait now who does that remind me of. For the next several years we designed and built any and all the transport equipment required by the Saudi's, from sheep crates to transport equipment to facilitate the importation and housing the millions of sheep which were ultimately and still being exported to the middle East today. So if I don't stop to shed a tear for the odd sheep dying, either in the paddock, in the sheep crate or in the sheep ship, I don't appologise. I leave that little job to all the soft cock, nancys out there. I take it as what it is and just move on. If you want a sheep for a pet, I am sure there are many places that will accommodate you. This is not one of them.

"I was just one of the group who was part of the supply chain"

ALTRAV, were yo one of the sheep?

Baa, baa.

Guys, enough. I'm actually tired. Can't you see what your doing to your credibility. Now I'm beginning to feel sorry for you as the other commentors read what you are saying. I know we have differing opinions on practically everything, let's agree to disagree. I'm too old to try to talk like a primary school bully, so let's just leave it for the next topic, where we can sling mud to our hearts content.

I suppose if they ban live sheep exports, they can always convert those ships over to low budget Middle East cruises for us Aussies. "Join 20,000 others Australians as you take a one way $10 final trip of a lifetime to the Middle East! Enjoy the sea sickness, and lack of food and water as you get tossed overboard somewhere in the middle of the Indian Ocean 2,000 clicks from landfall. Book your standing room only now, you wont last at this price."

Dear ALTRAV,

No one called you anything in previous posts on this thread, but you launched straight away with terms like f-wits, dole bludgers, idiots, little children, ignorant etc.

Then when you cop a little bit back you go all sooky on us.

I have repeatedly said you need to grow up. Try it for once.

Dear Banjo,

I have been reading up on the early settlement of Victoria and there was an interesting little snippet germane to our discussion.

In 1836 settlers were bring sheep over from Tasmania as quickly as possible to help secure land claims. They were shipped in lots up to 750 at a time from December through to March on journeys which typically took 5 or more days.

Of the 4212 sheep transported for George Russell only 4 died at sea representing less than .001% loss.

No I know these journeys were 5 days instead of 15 but Bass Strait is not the most forgiving stretch of water.

Here we are 170 years later accepting losses of 4% as standard and over 10% as just 'regrettable'.

Why?

SR, firstly, I am surprised you did not find ANY evidence of what I said. Just look back at some of Pauls responses, that should do it.
Now on with your comments re sheep. Firstly the crossing was obviously much shorter, and most importantly the climate in the Bass Straight is cool to cold. Now even though the sheep are shorn they are subject to temperatures which are about the same as here. The ships are not sealed boxes, they carry water and feed. They don't want anymore deaths than we do because obviously someone is going to be held accountable. I can just imagine if the unthinkable happened and the ships turned up with ALL the sheep dead. I can't imagine. What is out of place in this debate is the unrealistic expectations of a particular 'type' of people who appear to demonstrate a complete lack of maturity and reason. This is so because to expect several thousand sheep to be moved in this manner and not result in some deaths is clearly immature and unreasonable. Let's say we do it the old fashioned way and we 'walk' them to their destination. (if it was even possible) would one of the brainiacs out there care to tell me how many would die along the way? As for them being in a hot environment. Firstly, most days it's always windy out on the ocean. Baring the odd calm day. So if it is hot from where they leave, it stands to reason, it is cold where they are going, and don't forget the temps and conditions in both environments are very similar, so the sheep that died, very likely were doomed before they left. These continual attacks on very important trade deals making Australia many millions of dollars is just futile and childish. How about the mantra, 'for the greater good'. Many Aussies lost their lives in battle under that mantra, I think we can forego a few sheep by comparison.

ttbn, when did you suddenly decide to back such a mindless cause. Ban Live Exports! Really? You would not suggest such a thing if you were better informed about so many things which are affected by your title. Quora limits responses to the point that they do not carry enough information to convey an informed response, and so we see so many mindless unhelpful comments. It is immature to simply expect the cessation of ANY livestock shipments based on the antagonists premises. It is a fact, livestock die, all the time. So you must not use that as an argument. These are not healthy stud animals they are dealt the hand that they get, just like any other living thing. The fact that they are at the bottom of the food chain is just a fact and no more. The fact that you and others like you are awakened enough to actually comment against live exports is a demonstration of your lack of maturity and life experiences. You and others like you, those who picket the ports and try to disrupt the movement of livestock are in fact criminals. Those backing such ridiculous moves are at best 'air-heads', who as I said have not experienced the fullness of life and all it's machinery. You sit there sipping your triple latte what-the hell-ever, and between tweedle dee and tweedle dumb, and a few more of your lesser informed compatriots, including the ones sitting there petting their pets, conclude that animals dying is the fault of mankind. Well guess what they just die. It is a gross mis-acusation to push the cruelty banner. No one attacked them with a weapon and bashed their heads in. No one ripped their throats out just for fun. So stop vilifying and lying and exaggerating the live sheep or cattle or goats export situation. You are being ridiculed more and more by the rest of the population. We are all sick of seeing, hearing your people's raves and rants. Pick another 'real' problem area and move your cause to that one. There's nothing to see here.

Dear ALTRAV,

You wrote;

“SR, firstly, I am surprised you did not find ANY evidence of what I said.”

Seriously mate I can't keep up. I specifically quoted the derogatory words you had used in your opening post. They are there as plain as day. Perhaps you might want to go and read it to refresh yourself.

Look I get that you have a tendency to pile on without thinking and I probably should be cutting you some slack as it is not normal behaviour, but you have illustrated an ability to dial it back when you get pulled up so I encourage you to review your posts before submitting.

SR, duly noted. I cannot accept questionable comments. I am wired to respond according to the veracity and relativity of a comment. I do not deal in personalities so if I find a comment is way out of line, I respond accordingly. The hoo-haa that has plagued the live animal export trade is unjustified and should not be entertained. Too many untruths are quoted in the name of facts. The best one which gets all the ....... going is, cruelty. Stop hyping it up. There is no damn cruelty. This is a wasted cause. You know very well that sheep die, all the time, all that changes is, where they die. The livestock have food, water and air, which is more than they get where they came from. Do you seriously believe that the exporters are ok with their cargo dying on them? No but being mature, reasonable adults, they know that deaths are inevitable. Now if only we can get you and your compatriots to accept the truth/facts about the live sheep export trade, we can all move on. Ban live Exports? No, ban the ones who think they know what they are talking about and don't!

" There is no damn cruelty"

Pull the other leg, it whistles.

Is Mise, the problem is not cruelty. You and others like you have taken a narrow and childlike view on these issues. If you refuse to admit that these animals were more than likely weak or ill before they left, and therefore a good chance they were going to die, that's your un-informed decision. What is in question here is not whether these deaths are 'cruel', but who is saying they are cruel. I have given examples galore as to what IS cruel. Dogs attacking these animals and ripping their throats out, for fun, now that's cruel. When these sheep die it is SAD not cruel. You wonder why I come out fighting. Here is such an example, when I hear blatant attempts to make a point by exaggerating or just plain lying. The do-gooders have no real or tangible grounds to justify their stance on this topic and so they over-reach in desperation, in a pathetic attempt to win their point. As I said before, Don't ban live sheep export. Ban the people against it. It would be far more productive and justified to gather up all those against the livestock export trade and load you all up on a, let's call it a 'dip-ship', and all our problems would be solved. Just think, because you all think you've got the answers, well this would be the perfect way to put them to the test. Good luck and 'bon voyage'.

ALTRVE, you certainly are a rare one. How does one attain true nirvana, discovering ones inner self, reaching a higher astral plane beyond that of mere mortals. The answer is simple according to you; "Support Live Sheep Exports", the rest of us are just 'air-heads'.

Take this diatribe "Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 16 April 2018 3:33:51 PM" read it, its absolute garbage!

Paul, once again you rave on. The umpire came back a long time ago with an answer to your input to some of these topics. If my comments are 'absolute garbage', then yours are too. Why do you and others have to comment about things you know NOTHING about. When I look through the topic list I do not comment on topics I am not familiar with and just keep looking down the list. If there's nothing there for me, I just move on. Out of ALL the commentors on this topic, I am the only one with actual knowledge and experience on this topic yet you challenge me. Why do you bother? Instead of mocking and knocking, how about asking me questions about this topic? Not only will you become better informed, but you may help explain to others as to why their attitude is mis-directed. Well I tried.

ALTRAV, your assertion that there is no animal cruelty on these ships is wrong. The vision shows sheep in the most disgusting of conditions. Why you would claim otherwise is beyond me. Or is it you accept such cruelty when there is a buck to be made, nothing else matters.

Farmers do not send off 'weak and ill’ animals; they would lose business and more than likely be prosecuted under one or of the health regulations required of a 'clean, green’ country. What we saw on that ship was bloody cruel, and anyone who thinks otherwise is not a very nice person. Only a complete ban on live exports will stop the cruelty. There are more countries wanting chilled carcasses that those wanting to kill their own, and civilised countries should have put a stop to this barbarism long ago. New Zealand did, and their lamb is prized above ours all over the world. NZ doesn’t pander to anyone.

ttbn, farmers DO send ill animals abroad. As for NZ getting better prices than us, sure it's because they are a better quality meat. Haven't you noticed the difference? I have. You can babble on as much as you like your attitude and those of your mates, as I have already said, is childlike. I don't care if you or anyone else thinks 'I'm not a very nice person'. Again if you and your girly mates want to go down to any holding yards in the middle of winter you would have something to say about that even. You people are unrealistic and would fail in the real world, in real life situations. Stop carrying on about nothing. I don't care if the conditions are appalling to you and your lot, you don't count, you are irrelevant in the greater scheme of things. And I say this as a fact and not with malice. The conditions are what they are. They started out nice and clean and by the time they got to their destination it was dirty. DUH! You lot are far too impressionable. As I said, like children. We don't know the veracity of these expose's. Were you there? Was anyone you know there? Possibly behind the camera. Exactly where and when were these pics taken. Are they historic footage to try and make a point? Too many questions mate. I'm sorry you and your lot are in NO position to debate this topic. I AM. Remember, I was involved in one of the original contracts as there have been many dating back many years.