As Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel since 1948, and the vast majority of Jerusalem is within the recognized borders of Israel I don't see the issue with the USA recognizing this fact.

You and Trump

It need not concern anyone here, or anyone anywhere, where Trump decides the U.S. embassy in Israel should be housed.

NNN, AKA captain obvious and others

The question I asked was very simple, If the capital of Israel has been in West Jerusalem for 70yrs long before the occupation of the west bank and Gaza and is not claimed by the Palestinians, then what is the objection to the US recognizing this and moving its embassy there?

Dear Shadow Minister,

The Israeli parliament and many of its governmental institutions have always been in Jerusalem. The reason why most countries had refrained from siting their embassies there was to try and keep this as a bargaining chip for Israel to move towards a two state solution.

Now America has spent its chip without anything in return. That is their right but it is perfectly justifiable for the Palestinians and indeed other nations to be upset at this move. Let us hope Australia doesn't sycophantically follow suit although given Julie Bishop's track record this may be in vain.

Stupid primitives. Trying to bring about armageddon and the end of the world.
Time to end the primitives and their ancient beliefs in superfairies and their love of hatred and bigotry.
If you are a godbother you are the problem.

I've been watching the PBS News hour on television.
Only 19% of American Jews support
the US President's move.

Julie Bishop has announced
that Australia does not support the US in this matter.
The International community - is united in saying
recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel
is disastrous for any hopes of reviving meaningful peace
talks.

The status of Jerusalem is one of the pivotal issues
that diplomats and peacemakers have said must be agreed
between the two parties (Palestine and Israel)
in negotiations.

Donald Trump's abandonment of decades of US policy has
set him at odds with the rest of the world and could have
far-reaching consequences.

In 2015, Palestinians made up 37% of the city's population of
about 850,000. Many live in overcrowded homes and
neighbourhoods, unable to get permits to build or extend.
Three quarters live below the poverty line and 25% live
in neighbourhoods cut off from the rest of the city by the
separation barrier.

It is difficult to see how Trump's move will improve conditions
for them. Nir Barkat, the city's mayor, said on Wednesday,
"Here in Jerusalem and Israel we applaud the president
and if people become violent they will pay a heavy price."
Palestinians already are. Some 200,000 Israelis live in
settlements in occupied East Jerusalem, illegal under
international law. They will celebrate along with the Israel
government the US President's decision.

This will reinforce the view of many Israeli politicians that
there is little to be gained by negotiating with the Palestinians.
A very bad move on behalf of the US President.

".. the Israeli position is mainly based on the current municipality boundaries of Jerusalem, which resulted from a series of administrative enlargements decided by Israeli municipal authorities since the June 1967 Six-Day War. ."
The Prime Minister , Vladimir Putin , used city authority decisions to enlarge his title to Ukraine-Poland and approve settlements in Crimea . A quick tweet to Trump Towers , simple movements by tanks and the capital works were approved. China announced it would not buy the Philippines until the price became more tempting but Darwin is ready to go , also some cheaper lines in Canberra ministers.

SR,

I take it that what you are saying is there is no reason to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital other than trying to force Israel to come to the table?

Given that the Palestinians have still refused to recognize Israel's right to exist and have pre conditions for talks that essentially require Israel's total capitulation, it can be reasonably argued that there is no serious intention of the Palestinians to negotiate.

If this is true then the Palestinians are the ones that need the prodding to come to the table, and since doing bugger all has kept their leaders in power perhaps a sign that a complete failure to compromise has consequences might prod them into doing the right thing.

I see that the Czech republic has now followed suit.

Jerusalem has always been the capital of Israel. This has long since been agreed, with the Congress voting back in the 1990s to so recognise it. The US Senate voted 90-0. The Obamessiah agreed in 2008, but he was seeking election. After the election he was more 'flexible'.

Trump promised to move the embassy as part of his election platform. It seems people are unused to politicians keeping their promises.

There is only one way peace will come to this region and that is when the so-called Palestinians come to understand that the deals already offered are the best they can get. Until now they have hoped that by holding out they will eventually get a better deal which will allow them to eventually destroy the Jewish state. Trump is disabusing them of this notion.

The US Congress has also voted to cut off funds to the Palestinian kleptocrats until they stop the policy of rewarding the families of those who murder Jews and infidels.

It is rumoured that there are secret deals being made between Israel and the Saudis who are terrified of Iran and the bomb that Obama has virtually gifted them. It makes sense that Israel and Saudi draw closer together. But this clearly means that there will be less Arab support for the so-called Palestinians.

The tide is moving against them. Perhaps they'll come to realise that they cannot win and that there'll never be a better time to make genuine peace than right now. Perhaps they just need a gentle nudge.

What I can't work out is why Trump would appear to be helping the Jewish state. After all, we keep getting told by our moral betters that he's a Nazi and white supremacists. Something doesn't make sense there </sarc>

The United Nations has never recognised Jerusalem
as Israel's capital because of its historical
importance to other religions.

In its 1947 plan on partition, the United Nations
divided the holy land into two nations - but
deliberately left out Jerusalem out of the equation as
a special entity in recognition of its shared religious
importance.

Foreign governments, in recognition of international law
have in turn refused to recognise Israel's sovereingty
over Jerusalem, unless or until the city's status is
decided through formal peace negotiations.

More than 150 nations including Australia maintain their
diplomatic missions in Tel Aviv. None appear ready to
follow Mr Trump's decision.

It should be noted that Israel captured the Arab half of
Jerusalem (as well as the West Bank) from Jordon in the
Six Day War of 1967. Under international law the land
remains occupied territory. The United Nations does not
recognise Israel's right to the land. Of course some
200,000 Israelis living in the settlements in occupied
East Jerusalem, illegal under international law will
celebrate Mr Trump's decision, as will the Israeli
government.

The problem will continue with both Israeli and Palestinians
claiming the city as their rightful capital.

More on this complex issue at: -

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-07/why-trump-recognising-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-is-complex/9236268

Of course, Jerusalem should ultimately be recognised as the capital of Israel, but timing is crucial - now is entirely inappropriate. Maybe in forty years. Expect many, many violent reactions across the Muslim world tomorrow night. Perhaps a thousand killed in Pakistan alone, including many innocent Shi'ites, Sufis, Bahai's and Christians - what great fun !

Of course, Jerusalem has been a Jewish city, on and off, for three thousand years. If figures such as David and Solomon actually existed, then yes, three thousand years.

I've wondered how on earth Jerusalem could be a Muslim city. The only connection I can think of is that Muhammad flew there on a winged horse with a woman's face, on the night that he died. Okay, that makes sense. But why to Jerusalem ? Because the only way to get to Heaven was by climbing Jacob's Ladder which extended above the Temple of Solomon to Heaven, according to Jewish custom. That raises the issue that perhaps very early Islam was formed out of a break-away Jewish sect ?

It's well known that there was a stud farm for breeding winged horses south of Mecca - it still operates. As it happens, my grandfather was in Palestine at the end of the First World War. He was on very good terms with a Bedouin leader who asked him, as a crack horse-breaker, to go down there and break in a few of their more difficult horses. He found them to be very skittish, so he said, small and dainty ponies, but soon had them under control. He found it easy to ride them, he just had to hang onto the wings. In fact, he flew on one back to Beersheba to rejoin the Remounts. So there you go: Jerusalem is a Muslim city.

Joe

Dear Shadow Minister,

You trot this baseless tripe out every time this subject is raised and I have little inclination to go through it yet again.

However it remains an indictment on how much yet again your ideology trumps any sense of truth or justice you might have.

The continued building of illegal settlements in occupied territories against international law and the Geneva convention by a government which obviously has no intention of allowing a viable Palestinian state lay bare any notion that the Palestinians are anything but the victims here. For you to be unwilling or unable to recognise this is frankly contemptible.

What a champion!.

Jerusalem, that is Western Jerusalem, has always been the capital of Israel.

That said, the government of Israel has imposed the occupied Eastern part of Jerusalem over the citizens of Israel and over the residents of Jerusalem in particular, as it forced by law the "unification" of Jerusalem under one council.

This was not just a hot-air political statement, but has many practical ramifications: more public and private institutions in Jerusalem migrate to the eastern side, more main roads are built that pass through the eastern side and anti-discrimination law prevents companies from providing services only in the western side. This makes the life of Jerusalemites, Israelis, visitors and diplomats who conscientiously do not wish to partake of the occupation, very difficult if not impossible.

In addition, segments of the main roads to Jerusalem pass through the West Bank, including both freeways and 6 kilometres of the new (which will become the only) train line to Jerusalem, which is expected to open next March. True, there are ways to bypass those roads, but they are longer, winding, slower, have no public transportation and are impassable during heavier snow (when the trains continue to go and every effort is made to keep the freeways open).

While moving embassies to Western Jerusalem is in principle a good idea, in practice it must be weighed against the above transportation issues.

About time! How long are we going to support and encourage civil war in Israel? The two state solution isn't working and won't start to work because we wait long enough. One of the two states (Israel) actually gives a damn about their citizens. The other state (Palistine) uses it's citizens as an army of terrorists or as poverty stricken meat shields. The leaders of Palistine are unable and unwilling to lead their people out of poverty and into peace. It's time to support Israel, and only Israel, so that the country has authority within it's land and not a continual civil war.

Among other reasons step up to an actual solution and support it, instead of blundering around and hoping murderers will change their ways.

Not_Now.Soon

well said

Israel has defined the northern and southern borders. "From the river of Egypt in the south to the great river Euphrates in the north would include all of modern day Lebanon and three-fourths of modern day Syria." And half Iraq where IS rebels were defying Jerusalem's police. Trump may get the crowds he's entitled to when he walks to his new embassy in Great Israel and does an Abraham of Lincoln speech.

God forbid anyone should provoke Muslims in the Middle East!

SR,

You are a joke, first you accept the facts upon which I base my argument, then accuse me of baseless tripe. Here are the facts again, and you are free to point out any errors:

1 West Jerusalem has been part of Israel since 1948, is recognized as such by the international community.
2 West Jerusalem is not subject to any claims by the Palestinians.
3 All major arms of the government of Israel has been based in West Jerusalem since 1948.

Some more facts:

4 West Jerusalem has already been recognized as the capital of Israel by Russia in April, and now by the Czech republic.
5 The Palestinians have effectively refused to negotiate for more than a decade.
6 The US has had legislation passed for 2 decades to move the US embassy from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem.

Foxy,

The condition of the Palestinians in East Jerusalem is not going to improve unless there is some negotiation. The unelected Palestinians leaders know that any hint of compromise is likely to lose them their comfy aide funded positions and are not likely to budge unless something changes, otherwise in 2067 we will be in exactly the same position.

Timing is everything in this game. Of course, one day, Jerusalem will be recognised as the capital of Israel. But now ? Why ? Is Trump deliberately trying to destroy any feeble moves towards rapprochement in the Middle East ? Not to mention his son-in-law's chances of ever being listened to in the region again. My God, what a moron.

What do you reckon the death toll might be by the end of this weekend ? And the next ?

Timing.

Two rockets fired into Israel from Palestine today. Something for the OLO Left wing thugs to cheer.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Foreign governments, in recognition of international
law have in turn refused to recognise Israel's
sovereignty over Jerusalem, unless or until the
city's status is decided through formal peace
negotiations. More than 150 nations including
Australia maintain their diplomatic missions in Tel
Aviv. None of them appear ready to follow Mr Trump's
decision

.

ttbn,

If people's opinions on this forum that disagree
with yours bother you more than your capacity
to have civil discussions and you have to stoop
to calling people names then it is time for you
to re-evaluate your sense of morality.

I could be wrong: Maybe

(A). Trump has a very cunning plan, perhaps to force the issue, with a bit of collateral damage of course, but to bring people to the table, to all agree to a two-state solution with Jerusalem as the capital of Israel; [yeah, that should work];

OR

(B). he IS a moron.

I suppose we'll see by the end of this weekend.

My money is on option (B).

Joe

Dear Shadow Minister,

Please don't deflect.

I was obviously addressing this bit of nonsense from you;

“Given that the Palestinians have still refused to recognize Israel's right to exist and have pre conditions for talks that essentially require Israel's total capitulation, it can be reasonably argued that there is no serious intention of the Palestinians to negotiate.”

The Palestinians have repeatedly agreed to recognise Israel's right to exist. way back in 1988 Arafat made that commitment and in 1993 followed it up with a letter to the Israeli PM in which he declared;

“The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era...I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments: The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.”

What Israel later did was to raise the ante by saying this was not good enough and instead insisting that the Palestinians now must recognise Israel as a Jewish state, something I fully agree they should never have to do especially given the number of non-Jewish people who live there.

But we have been through this before and yet you still roll out your go to falsehoods whenever this issue is raised. I really do find it distasteful.

Foxy,

I'm surprised that you had the sensitivity to realise that my comments were directed at people like you; you appear to have had a brief relapse from your sanctimonious, goody two shoes, never wrong, bullying, usual self. Your are insufferable.

SR,

I then take it that you have accepted all the points I raised in my previous:

1 West Jerusalem has been part of Israel since 1948, is recognized as such by the international community.
2 West Jerusalem is not subject to any claims by the Palestinians.
3 All major arms of the government of Israel has been based in West Jerusalem since 1948.
4 West Jerusalem has already been recognized as the capital of Israel by Russia in April, and now by the Czech republic.
5 The Palestinians have effectively refused to negotiate for more than a decade.
6 The US has had legislation passed for 2 decades to move the US embassy from Tel-Aviv to Jerusalem.

With regards Israels right to exist, I believe the letter from Arafat stated: "the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid".

However, the situation to date is that the PLO charter has not been changed and still refuses to recognize Israel, and secondly as Hamas now represents about half of the Palestinians and they firmly refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist, I find your insistence that the Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist as somewhat hard to swallow.

Foxy,

The recognition that Israel's capital is Jerusalem does not necessarily recognize Israel's sovereignty over the entire city, and thus does not violate any international law, otherwise Russia would not have done so.

ttbn,

Oh dear, more skid marks coming out of your
mouth instead of your rear-end.

Dear Shadow Minister,

“The Palestinians have effectively refused to negotiate for more than a decade.”

The Palestinians have insisted that the expansion of illegal settlements be completely halted before negotiations can progress. Why is that an anathema to you?

To any fair minded person this is a completely valid position. These settlements are against international law. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

The Palestinians are far more accepting the right of Israel to exist than the Israelis are of a Palestinian state especially along the 67 borders.

How about you park the ideology and accept the facts on the ground.

Foxy,

Like all of your kind, you revert to 'common' and low class when the veneer is penetrated.

ttbn,

Just putting it in language that poor old you would
understand dear heart.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Of course Russia would support Mr Trump, after all
they helped get him elected but 150 nations,
including Australia disagree with Mr Trump's decision.

Foxy,

Russia did this in April nearly 8 months before Trump. Also this was a Trump promise, which was legislated by a massive majority in both the congress and senate in the 90s and promised by Clinton, Bush and Obama.

Dear Shadow Minister,

This is what the Russians said;

“We reaffirm our commitment to the UN-approved principles for a Palestinian-Israeli settlement, which include the status of East Jerusalem as the capital of the future Palestinian state. At the same time, we must state that in this context we view West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.”

There was no such distinction from Trump;

“Therefore, I have determined that it is time to officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.”

Chalk and bloody cheese my friend.

".. does not violate any international law, otherwise Russia would not have done so.."
gasp..choke..
John F Kennedy said 'I'm a Berliner sausage' , Russia is no good and East Berlin is dear to the heart of freedom-loving investment capital and West Berlin is Berlin with US embassy , Marines and nukes including East Berlin and Moscow is fine with that . It's the Law .

SM,

Yes. The moronic Left would have cheered if Clinton or Obama had actually kept their promises to do what Trump has managed to do.

Donald Trump has introduced a new twelve-inch doll
of himself that speaks seventeen different phrases,
which is amazing as that's five more than the real
Donald Trump.

cont'd ...

And the doll is available for purchase for Christmas.

Hi Foxy,

Where can we get some ? A gift that would keep giving. Why say only five ?

Joe

Foxy

r u looking for a role on the drum? You have become queen of the cheap shots with little substance.

Yep, runner. She gets cheaper and nastier as she runs out of Google references and pointers from the ABC.

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

The doll is available from Amazon online.
You can order as many as you want.

http://www.amazon.com/Talking-Donald-Trump-Apprentice-Collectible/dp/B0002UADAK

You can also buy a Hillary doll. I gather the Hillary doll can't really stand up by itself so its quite life-like.

Buy the two together.

Then whenever you're feeling like you need a little cheering up you could re-enact last years election.

Trump has once again demonstrated his naivety when dealing with world affairs, a dangerous treat indeed. The man has an extremely inflated view of himself, and the position and roll of the US in the world. The US might have the biggest guns, and the biggest ships, but Trump is playing with fire if he thinks he is, and his country is, so powerful that it is invulnerable to retribution by extremists, 9/11 proved its not.

Any credibility the US may have had as a "peace maker" in the Middle Easts is undermined by this unilateral action of Trump's. The majority of nations, including Australia, are committed to a two state solution in the region. Unfortunate if the Palestinians conclude they are being shut out, as this shows they are, they will react, and many people will suffer for what is simply frivolous action by an out of touch, but powerful world leader. Lets hope this can be avoided and the peace process can continue, for the sake of so many innocent people.

SR,

Irrespective of the qualification, the US was the second superpower to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Note that Trump made no mention of the claims of either side.

Secondly addressing your previous post that I missed:

If the Palestinian precondition for talks was just that the settlements were frozen, then I might agree with you that it was a reasonable request, however, this was far from the only demand:

"Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has demanded that Egyptians force Israel to freeze settlement construction and release the fourth batch of prisoners before he would consent to attend the summit in Cairo. Abbas also demanded that Israel acquiesce to negotiations based on the pre-1967 lines and pledge ahead of time to implement any agreements reached in the talks."

These pre conditions are so unrealistic and unreasonable that most fair minded people would believe that it is a deliberate attempt to sabotage any negotiation.

Without compromise, the status quo will continue, with more settlements and more conflict. The ball is in the Palestinians' court.

.." with more settlements and more conflict. The ball is in the Palestinians' court."

"Poland must immediately end its invasion of Silesia and threats against the Reich and Berlin...sorry , time's up..surrender all territory. Half is Russia's. "

It's highly amusing to see complete nobodies rubbishing Trump, the most powerful man in the world. He doesn't even know you clowns exist.

Ttbn,

Yes, one day, Jerusalem should be the capital of Israel. Now is utterly inappropriate. Trump may have buggered up any chance for peace and rapprochement in the Middle East at a critical time. Why couldn't he have waited ? Is he the sort of self-obsessedbloke who just has to fart, even if he's in a lift ? Christ, what is he, seventeen ?

Or does he have a truly-truly cunning plan, to draw out the antagonists in all of these complex interactions across the Middle East (including Turkey) and force them, after much bloodshed and violence, to examine where they stand ? Well, we know where most of the countries stand on every issue, that's been done to death, up hill and down dale.

I'm struggling to see what good might come out of this dumb-dumb move. A total moron.

Joe

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/939006911629869056

Here we have Bill Clinton, George Bush and Barak Obama stating that Jerusalem was the capital of Israel and pledging to move the US embassy to Jerusalem.

Joe,

You are clearly a Trump-hater. I am assuming you also took against Clinton, Bush and Obama when they promised to do the same thing, but cravenly ducked out?

It is perfectly 'appropriate' at this time. There will never be peace in the region as long as Islam exists. There is simply no excuse for the West's reluctance to take the war to the Muslims instead of just sitting around and copping it like the bloody cowards we are.

Ttbn,

Timing, as the 'escort' said to the bishop, is everything.

Joe

That's another thing! Bishops used to consort with 'actresses'. Now it's 'escorts'. Things are getting worse all the time:).

Dear mhaze,

Thank You for your suggestion about a Hillary Clinton
doll. There's one that would be a perfect match with
the Trump doll as you suggested earlier.

It's called The Hillary Nutcracker.

It's nine-inches tall, fully functional, resin
nutcracker with an amazing likeness of Hillary
Clinton.

It has stainless-steel teeth secured inside upper
legs to grip and crack nuts in their shell.

It stands upright and has internal stainless steel
components and spring.

It's guaranteed to be the talk of any party and would
definitely present a challenge to an over-bearing
Trump doll. What fun!

http://www.amazon.com/CSB-Commodities-HCN1-Hillary-Nutcracker/dp/B000UB0004

"It's highly amusing to see complete nobodies rubbishing Trump, the most powerful man in the world".
Power . He has power. p o w e r

Hi Foxy,

Maybe you can train your Trump doll to try to grab your Hilary doll on the pussy, as is his habit, crushing his tiny fingers. I could watch that for hours :)

Love,

Joe

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

I can't train the Trump doll to do anything.
He's got a teflon brain (nothing sticks).

teflon
ttbn
no , wrong spelling

Dear Foxy,

Yeah, I forgot :)

Love,

Joe

"Trump may have buggered up any chance for peace and rapprochement in the Middle East at a critical time. Why couldn't he have waited ?"

Yeah. The peace process has been an utter failure over the past 70 years. A peace settlement is no closer now than it was in 1948.

But...but...but if only Trump had waited another 6 months I'm sure everything would have been resolved, Palestinian and Jew forever reconciled and permanent rainbows would bridge the River Jordan.

Sheesh!

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein, (attributed)"

As I said above, there are massive changes going on in the M-E with the defeat of ISIS, the revolution in Saudi Arabia and the rapprochement between Israel, the Saudi coalition and Egypt. Far from being the worst time to do this, this may be the best time.

Hillary as a nut-cracker....seems about right.

So did Hillary become a nut-cracker because Bill decided to get his (violent) jollies elsewhere or did Bill decide to get his (violent) jollies elsewhere because of Hillary's penchant to breaking nuts.

Peace in the Middle East is a fine sentiment, but it is not going to happen as long as Islam exists. When the Nazis wanted to take over the world, Western allies declared war on them and won. The West has not got the resolve to do that at the moment. All out war against Islam is the only way to go. Failing to go to war is suicide.

Hi Mhaze,

Six months ? No, forty years. Forty years. Forty years. Or maybe more. When its time comes, not before. This is 'Politics 101, for the Opportunity Class kids'.

Joe

"Islaam.org
WAR
A major war between Muslims and Christians: Half the Christian army will sign a peace treaty with the Muslim army, while the second half of the Christian army remains the common enemy.
ISTANBUL CONQUERED BY CHRISTIANS
The enemy half of the Christian army conquers Istanbul, Turkey.
The two Christian armies reunite, conquering Syria.
At age 40, Imam Mahdi appears in Makkah, then flees to Madinah.
Imam Mahdi’s army CONQUERS PALESTINE , JIHAAD ON INDIA .
Imam Mahdi returns to Syria and establishes Muslim rule over the lands he passes.

Jews will number 70,000 and will wear expensive silk attire and carry double edged swords.
Jesus descends during the lifetime of Imaam Mahdi and kills Dajjal anti-Christ at the Gate of Hudd, near an Israeli airport .
Jihad will be stopped; peace, harmony, and tranquility will be on earth. The earth will produce abundant crops and fruit. The people will follow Islam.
Jesus PASSES AWAY AND is BURIED NEXT TO MUHAMMED."
-
George W Bush ( peace be upon him) , mission accomplished with flying horses and burning arrows, preaches "Bring it on" and the people follow him with crops , tomatos and fruut .

Reading and re-reading all of these posts, I'm still puzzled as to why Jerusalem is in any way a Muslim city. Okay, Muhammad flew there and then from the Jewish temple, climbed up Jacob's Ladder in order to get into Paradise. That raises the question: do all good Muslims have to do that, to go to Jerusalem, to the Temple of Solomon, in order to get into Paradise, or just Muhammad ?

Why 'Jacob's Ladder' ? Because it is supposed to be, in ancient Jewish custom, the site of the place where Abraham was about to sacrifice his son, and later where Abraham may have been buried, and/or to where his grandson Jacob took his body, something like that. i.e. a Jewish site.

So why did Muhammad put so much store in a Jewish custom ? Why think that the journey into Paradise starts from a Jewish site ? Was Muhammad just a copy-cat ? Was he originally Jewish, i.e. when he was pre-Muslim ?

Did pre-Muslim desert Arab culture have a concept of Paradise, or did they have to borrow that concept from the Jews, or more likely from the Christians ? Is most of Islam entirely derivative, from all neighbouring religions and cultures, Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Yazidism, etc., and from Syriac, Coptic Egyptian, Berber, Kurdish-Mesopotamanian, Persian, Armenian, eastern Mediterranean - all of those rich urban cultural influences in the seventh century, certainly rich in relation to the backward desert culture of the remote Arabs of the time ?

So many questions that never get asked. :(

Joe

Dear mhaze,

Hillary looked at her marriage with Bill as
like having a gallstone. You deal with
it, there is pain, and then you pass it.

Foxy,

" there is pain". Well maybe she should have put some ice on it. Wasn't that Bill's advice to his other victims. (http://dailycaller.com/2017/11/17/juanita-broaddrick-coming-out-with-new-book-on-surviving-bill-clintons-alleged-rape/)

Oh wait they weren't victims because Hill, who claimed she thought all women should be believed, refused to believe them, and used her power to silence them.

No matter what Trump does, the world will owe him mightily simply because he kept the psychopaths outta office.

Loudmouth,

You said Trump should have waited until this critical time had passed. Now you say the critical time might last 40 or more years!! And you think that makes sense?

The less than faint odour of someone who just thinks that no matter what Trump does, he should have done the opposite. I have a feeling that, had the Obamessiah kept his promise and done this, we'd have been assured it was a masterstroke on the path to peace.

Dear mhaze,

As Fran Leibowitz famously stated at the time
that Donald Trump ran for the Presidency -
"No, he's not going to win. There's not that
many morons in the US!"

She's now admitted that
she was wrong.

Foxy and others have given the opinion that the US move will negate
any hope of peace and a two state solution.

There never was a possibility of a two state solution.
There is a significant difference in what the Palestinians say in
English and what they ay in Arabic.
Abbas knows that if he compromises with Israel he will be dead the next day.
The fundamental bottom line for the Arabs is defined by the Koran.
"If you meet a Jew kill him !"
They are unable to accept that there is any place in the middle east for Jews.
The Koran states that any place that has been occupied by moslems remains moslem forever.
Now we can see the difficulty of a no compromise stance, but do not
forget that moslems have a damaged genome and compromise is beyond
their ability to accept. You can see this in everything, the
intolerance of other religions, the over the top reaction to anything
that seems to criticise Islam. The Mohammad cartoons for example.

I suspect that Trump has come to the conclusion that after 20 years
plus of failed negotiations, about which the moslems have never failed
to let an opportunity be missed, he thinks that there is nothing to be
achieved by letting it continue.
Perhaps it comes from his book, what to do when negotiations stall.

Make a preempting move.

Muhammed wanted to correct Jews and Christians and cancel their ceremonial religion to have the same god but on Arabic terms . This meant taking over the Jewish temple ruins , getting Jesus onside , riding to heaven and cutting the deal with Allah for a merger of books , prophets and chosen people .

Obama had it both ways , for Israel and for Palestine.
Mr Obama told pro-Israel lobby group the American Israel Public Affairs Committee "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided. .it's going to be up to the parties to negotiate a range of these issues. And Jerusalem will be part of those negotiations."

In 2012, 71 percent of the $160 million that Jewish donors gave to the two major-party nominees went to President Obama who spent $1.1bn. ( around 10%). They got 1 sentence of support for Jerusalem for $110 million or $10 million per word.

//No matter what Trump does, the world will owe him mightily simply because he kept the psychopaths outta office.//

Does that include 'grabbing 'em by the pussy'?

' Does that include 'grabbing 'em by the pussy'' yeah we know Toni this behaviour certainly seems far more common among the regressive. In fact its sad that all those big mouths who threatened to leave the USA if Trump won reneged on their word. Yeah many of the Trump supporters are 'deplorable' eh Toni. And Hilary supporters white angels. Give me a vomit bag.

deplorable . regressive . psychopaths . pussy . impeach . liar . jail. great . power .

Malcolm and Bill . sigh...

//Yeah many of the Trump supporters are 'deplorable' eh Toni. And Hilary supporters white angels. Give me a vomit bag.//

Yes, runner, we know you're in favour of sexual assault. Now run along, will you?

All the left whingers on the site are saying that the recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel has killed the peace process. Well considering that the "peace process" has been in a vegetative coma for 2 decades, perhaps a shock to the heart is required to get it going.

The unelected so called Palestinian representatives in the PLO and Hamas have cushy jobs and are extremely wealthy having siphoned off $bns of aid into their own accounts. Why would they want to change the status quo?

"East Jerusalem, the proclaimed capital of Palestine, is administered as part of the Jerusalem District of Israel, but is claimed by Palestine as part of the Jerusalem Governorate."
In the rule-book of Wars ( an Olympic sport like Skate-Board and Surf) you win when you take the capital with at least 10 players and deny access to competing nukes and stones. It's slightly unusual for another team such as B-grade US Megatons to invade the field but all's fair in Russian democracy. Trump will drain the Governorate swamp , bomb Pyongyang and shift goal-posts.

Typical loudmouth, I asserted a few weeks ago:

"Of course, Jerusalem should ultimately be recognised as the capital of Israel, but timing is crucial - now is entirely inappropriate. Maybe in forty years. Expect many, many violent reactions across the Muslim world tomorrow night. Perhaps a thousand killed in Pakistan alone, including many innocent Shi'ites, Sufis, Bahai's and Christians - what great fun ! "

Boy, did I get that wrong: Hardly any violent reactions across the Muslim world, not even in Pakistan, the Festival State for Violent Reactions. And so far, not a thousand killed in Palestine within days but [only?] six or so within a month. In the 'Australian', it is asserted that Iran is now looked on as a much greater threat to Sunni Islam and the Arab world than Israel is.

But I don't believe that Salafism has given up its struggle [jihad] against the West, merely put it back for a while. The front-line now, perhaps, runs from the Straits of Hormuz through Qatar, Bahrain, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon. One complication for the implicit alliance between Salafism and the western 'Left' is that some of the 'Left's' darlings are on the other side, Assad for example, and Iran itself (after all, they're anti-American, therefore .... )

Curiouser and curiouser .....

Loudmouth

I see that Guatemala is now moving its embassy to Jerusalem, and the US has cut its contribution to the UN by about $300m in retaliation for the silly vote by the General Assembly.

Yes Loudmouth, the whole reaction to the US embassy decision was one
great fizzer.
If it means that the Palestinians will refuse to negotiate that would
be fine as it will formalise the status quo.
Now they can get down to a real world position of accepting that Israel is there for good.
Their demand of from the river to the sea was never going to happen.