If a site owner objects to any material of course the material has a good chance of being flushed. Objecting to it is a waste of time although I see it occur on other sites usually before the member objecting follows their material.

The material already down the gurgler is one thing, the understanding why, for me, another. Without being able to discuss the recently deleted thread or posts made within the thread as examples I’m struggling a bit.

What is flaming (a word I have only ever heard on OLO)?

Is it outright abuse or a personal attack or both? More definitions?

What are personal agendas?

Can personal agendas be of interest to everyone and worth discussing even after being labeled as one?

Can a personal agenda evolve into a group agenda or a matter of interest to many and then be purely labeled as an interesting topic?

What is defamation, or how is it applied on a site like this?

Can ones personal circumstances lead to a conversation that many would like to voice an opinion on and a debate evolve?

I know that has happened so maybe I need the word “agenda” put in OLO context?

Do we have Rules listed somewhere?

I was away for a year until a few days ago, maybe in that time things changed and I didn’t notice? Flaming, slander and outright nastiness, at times, were generally accepted as all part of the OLO debate process, this seemed to pretty accurately reflect debate in action globally. People demanding posts be removed were ignored, users screaming to be deleted landed on deaf ears. I remembered it all quite fondly.

Are both flaming and personal agendas in the eye of the beholder or a commonly held definition by the majority here?

Welcome back Piper! Sorry I missed all the fun.

What are personal agendas?

Every agenda is personal!

'Can ones personal circumstances lead to a conversation that many would like to voice an opinion on and a debate evolve?'

One would hope. There's noting more fun than judgemental gossip!

'Flaming, slander and outright nastiness, at times, were generally accepted as all part of the OLO debate process'

Ah, those were the days. I think I have let the site down really, I have mellowed so much as to become unrecognisable. I am on the cusp of retirement, considering a new incarnation (re-inventing myself, Madonna style) but all may be on hold if posters of the quality of the Piper (and of course Col Rouge) reignite my enthusiasm.

As I understand it according to information that I found on the web -
"flaming is a long standing network tradition. Flames can be lots of fun, both to write and read and the recipients of flames sometimes deserve the heat. However when this grows into a series of angry
letters between two people directed at each other it can dominate the tone and destroy the comaraderie of a discussion group. And while flame wars can initially be amusing they get boring very quickly to people who aren't involved in them. They're an unfair monopolization of forums."

An Editor or Moderator has to make a decision on how much they are going to allow. If a dissenting view is relevant to the discussion and argued in a constructive way then of course they resist editing. However if posts are clearly designed to disrupt the Forum - then yes action needs to be taken.

The art of resoned intelligent argument is a skill not easily acquired. I am still learning. However, I have learned from my past experience that it is better to keep things impersonal and stick to the discussion topic and if personal insults are being hurled don't react - simply ignore them. Bullies want you to explain yourself - you don't need to fall for that. There are rules of behaviour on this Forum - simply look them up. Also you may want to google
"What is a troll?" - in regards to the question about agendas.

A comment I made recently was deleted for 'flaming' so I learnt for the first time what defines a flame. Calling someone an idiot was my crime and it was rightly deleted. Maybe we all need a holiday from OLO from time to time so old sparring partners and perceived injustices in recurring themes that stir the passions don't get out of hand. :)

Fact is we can all debate without name calling - some people prefer to play the man instead of the ball. Sometimes it happens before we even know we have done it ourselves - it is human nature to make assumptions about people based on regular comments and attitudes on specific issues.

TPP I have never found your posts to be vitriolic so whatever you are doing seems fine, differing opinions is the substance of OLO.

Houel you honey of a man, one of my favorite people even when giving me a giant telling off or critiquing one of my more fluffy posts. I doubt you’ve softened and I will not fall for this disguise – the wolf is always there.

Col, now there was the master of the cruel and cutting remark, he was a shining star in the world of debate and unchained opinions. At times there was a feral quality to his posts that first made me want to gently prod them through the bars with a stick to make sure they had stopped trying to chew off their own foot. Much time was spent with dictionary in hand as it slowly dawned on me just how badly I had been insulted, which by the time I got to the end usually felt like a thorough assault.

I do prefer to leap right into making a judgment and insist the judged prove it wrong, I find it saves time rather than the slow polite build up of civilized conversation and understanding. It’s not easy being me I tell you.

You may be right about agendas Houel, outside of debating clubs where they are handed a topic, why would anyone here throw an opinion out there just to see how the cookie crumbled?

I hadn’t thought about it, if anyone here is doing it could they explain why, it would be appreciated.

Lexi your comment is interesting, monopolizing is boring agreed but what is “boring” is rather individual isn’t it? I read the rules, they seem incomplete and lack definition for my understanding, hence the thread. I’m not being deliberately dense but want a general explanation from OLO and not from a random google search. OLO is a community and I want OLO answers.

Dear Pelican

Your 'flame' was a comment on the behaviour of the man who heckled John Howard by throwing shoes at the former PM on the Q and A show. I always thought that flaming was personal insults directed at other posters.

Now I am really confused. Does that mean we can't comment on anyone?

________________________________

Welcome back Pied Piper - you may remember me as Fractelle.

There are forum rules on OLO - why don't you just check them out? OK - I read them ages ago and they haven't remotely helped me stay on the good side of the powers-that-be - but then no-one is perfect.

;)

Welcome back to both TPP and Severin.

Severin
No it was a bit more than that, I inferred the author was also one, by using the action of the shoe thrower to make a generalised comment about Left politics. My fault entirely.

The Pied Piper,

Welcome back. I had feared you may have been being intimidated by the DOCS Thought Police into no longer posting on OLO. It is pleasing to see that this was either not so, or that any intimidation has failed.

You ask:

"Do we have Rules listed somewhere?"

The answer is "yes we do".

(I have become much more confident in using that expression since Barach O'Barmagh, the most powerful man in all of Ireland, started using a variant of it with such success, after having first learned it from me BTW.)

If you scroll up to the top of any OLO page, be it thread or index, in the left-hand margin, just below the big words 'The Forum', you will find five web page buttons. The middle one says 'Rules'. If you click on it you get to see, guess what? The Forum Rules!

None of this is necessarily as obvious as it might in hindsight appear, perhaps because of the OLO user demographic, as perhaps exemplified by the pseudonym of the Forum's currently newest member, see: http://bit.ly/bwXzXC . I have, at the risk of appearing somewhat repetitious, commented upon this deficiency of obviousness (obviousity?) with respect Forum features elsewhere in a long rambling thread from yesteryear that in all probability contained examples of the breach of every single Forum rule.

You can, however, get straight to the heart of the matter here: http://bit.ly/9h2njc

You also ask as to the meaning of 'flaming' in its online sense. That you do not know this only shows what a sheltered life you, and I suspect many other OLO users, may have led with respect to online living. The Encyclopedia Dramatica describes 'flaming' here: http://bit.ly/aMjWxP , although I caution readers that some ads on this page are somewhat distasteful, so click at your own risk.

I have tried to introduce 'phlaigming', but the idea has not been widely taken up. The underlying concept is to try and introduce some not too wounding humour into posts posted in the vicinity of what is, or may become, a 'flame war'.

No comment :)

Hi ya, Severin - nice to hear from you.

One of my comments was deleted not long after I joined OLO - on the infamous Lord Monckton thread...so that was when I learned what "flaming" was.

I agree with Lexi that Moderation tends to be a fluid exercise depending on what unfolds on a thread.

Houellie,
Do you really think you're losing your touch?...surely not.

Idiot isn’t acceptable? I’d rather see you call someone an idiot Pelican than listen to someone being called an idiot using 350 very polite words that culminate in the person understanding that they have in fact been called an idiot using the longest available process on OLO.

Playing the man instead of the ball, considered unsporting (for lack of a better word) like within the Forum here? See that confuses me when you start thinking about so many topics started using a personal situation. And that we happily debate that perhaps the person has approached the question or situation wrongly based on their own situation and experiences?

I see it happen to Belly a lot, the implication or outright accusation that he thinks that way or this way purely because of his involvement with unions. Or once someone’s political/religious affiliations are defined every opinion they have must be a result of their political/religious stance. The best ones usually come with what gender you are and so obviously you were born to feel a certain way.

But I don’t mean to imply that arguments that have this element of not playing the ball/ovary are wrong at all in all cases either. And it aint in the rules. The rules state no flaming which is probably more about how politely you can insult someone and get away with it?

Forrest and Fractelle! I am so pleased to find you both here and you both taught me a lot. And I remember you always getting in trouble Fractelle and I enjoyed it no end. You disappeared for awhile too or weren’t around at the time I did?

DoCS did scare me off for awhile Forrest. “Phlaigming'? This becomes part of flaming a label or the alternative? Oh a link to a post from Wendy and Live Exports, I met her on another site and she was the one that first told me to check out OLO. For all I know I am her punishment on you all. Is she still banned after all this time?

Forrest

It is well beyond time that I thank you for delaying my descent into alzheimer's for another day or so.

Just reading both your lines and in between is an exercise wondrous indeed and I pat myself on the back when I 'get' you. Which is not always, but I try.

Pelican

Was your deleted post as evil as the vitriol of Foxy? Who has also fallen foul despite her studiously reading the roolz.

Now if only we could all be more like (insert name of anyone who appears to receive a great deal of latitude regards flaming) - warning to self; skating on thin ice.

'The rules state no flaming which is probably more about how politely you can insult someone and get away with it?'

See this is why you were so missed.

'I’d rather see you call someone an idiot Pelican than listen to someone being called an idiot using 350 very polite words that culminate in the person understanding that they have in fact been called an idiot using the longest available process on OLO.'

Amen.
Now where is the pontificator...

Severin,

I'd just like to make note once again that I have never been suspended, whereas you have.

Poirot,

I've been struggling for some time. A good MTR article to ridicule every now and then is the only thing that's kept me tuning in.

Good grief... Pelly if you get sin binned for calling an idiot by his right name .... woe unto us.

I suppose you 'could' have called in a 'vocabulary challenged, emotionally maladjusted individual given to outbursts of primal action"..but...'idiot' sums it up much better.

Houly... come over to a couple of my threads and release your spleen :)

Have a rant at Socialism on the 'Monkey' thread.

Piper.. I maintain that life would be pretty boring (and unhealthy) if you could never let out what builds up inside. I get 'flamed' in a regular basis and only the last time did something get done about it...but I myself was sinned binned as was another (CJ) who flamed me.
*ouch*

Yeah, but the name calling thing can go too far and you have to ask what sort of site do participants in general want OLO to be. And there is a difference between a comment dripping in vitriole or malice, and one that might even outright call someone an idiot. (No, I can't imagine Foxy's posts to be of that type-I don't know the Foxy story)

Does everyone really want OLO to turn into a free-for-all when the intention is to put forward opinions about all things political, social and economic.

There has to be some rules even it sometimes those grey areas come under Graham's subjectivity as moderator. We wanted Graham to continue as moderator so we have to abide by the rules, this site gives a fair bit of latitude really despite the odd time when one might question the ruling. We shouldn't always expect everything to be perfect or to marry with our own thoughts.

Personally the challenges and comments that make you rethink your own attitudes are sometimes the best ones. Even when Col uses the term 'socialist swill' or Houlley resorts to his favourite 'latte' anecdotes...sigh. :)

What is fun about OLO is people's perceptions. I have been called a socialist, a latte drinker, a hippie, a prude, a nice capitalist, a feminazi, a tree-hugger and a self-righteous atheist. I can cope with the flak but never quite sure how to come back without using words like 'idiot'. TPP, I don't know how to call someone an idiot in 350 nice words even after working with a fair bit of BS in the public service.

I can say thus far I have never been offended nor reported a post except my own for various reasons.

Someone even called Peter Hume a socialist once (heh heh). Just goes to show how one's perceptions are highly influenced depending where one sits on the values/ideology spectrum.

I think all personal argumentation should be deleted, for two reasons.

It is very common for people, when confronted with views that challenge their own, to revert instantly to personal insult. It adds nothing of value to the discussion, it's off-topic and it's tedious.

The personal argument itself also tends to derail any further discussion. If allowed, you get a site where so many threads end in nothing but an ill-graced exchange of abuse.

On the other hand, if A is avoiding personal argument, but B is laying it on, why should A have to put up with the abuse, and forbear replying in kind, just to participate in the discussion?

But most importantly, personal argument shouldn't be allowed because it is precisely most often used by those who who, being proved wrong, have nothing else to reply, and who hope by personal argument to divert attention from the bankruptcy of their own ideas. They should stand or fall on their own merits without the foundation, or decoration, of personal argumentation (across this nation).

Al you do cop more flak than most (even from me occasionally) but you handle it for the most part very well. :)

I actually like rules, I like to know where I am at and what social norms inside a group are that need to be conformed to so that I can belong and not offend, or at least not waste my time wanting to be a part of something that perhaps isn’t for me in the first place.

I’ve come across a few sites where people have appeared to me to be on a slightly more delicate wavelength and balk at that slightest rebuff. Yes in those situations I do step it up a notch; I want to find out if they will actually read a message of mine and promptly faint.

Most would agree (cause I am saying they will) that when rules are vague people are inclined to get confused about what is going on and what should be going on and what is allowed to go on.

But I am trying to get back in the OLO groove.

Now I am sure Graham in his head knows exactly what the rules mean and others have probably been around so long that they gathered the information via osmosis. But I remember things differently, has OLO changed or evolved or de-evolved or shifted slightly or has my memory taken on a rose tint over the year?

Passion was okay, anger was tolerated, personal agendas regularly taken down with aforementioned passionate anger rather than the delete key.

See if someone called me a socialist I’d be like “wha…?” But idiot I can happily cope with. I think that circled back round Pelican into “abuse” being in the eye of the beholder/ abused?

I’m all for Personal Argumentation Peter, it’s a big multi-syllable phrase that I suspect you just invented but I’d like to think I was making use of it somehow now that I’ve heard it.

Al I do like the way you talk. Or did just then, didn't understand a word over in the thread about electricity. :P

'Idiot' when used on forum usually means that the person using it disagrees vehemently with the person being accused of idiocy, but has no argument, couldn't be bothered with argumentation, or offers very flimsy argument, to support that disagreement.

Pied Piper welcome back.

If I'm understanding it correctly Graham is working to lift the tone of discussions. From my view too many thread's were getting bogged down in pointless personal battles between the same set of combatant's. Some like that stuff, others don't and as moderator Graham has to work out if that's what he want's the site to be.

He made the point recently that it can be difficult to get people to write quality material for the site and that's made more difficult if author's are subjected to abuse rather than genuine discussion of their articles (or so I interpreted his comments).

I'd prefer Lexi's approach and hope that Graham is successful in his efforts to clean up some stuff.

There does need to a differentiation between rebutting idea's and arguments and attacking people, no point posting here if having idea's criticized will get someone all bent out of shape but people should not have to toughen up regarding abuse to be able to take part as some have suggested when the topic has been raised previously.

R0bert

This is just another thread to criticise and undermine the moderation of the site.

It is inconceivable that any of the posters in this thread, all of whom would appear to be seasoned users of the Net and apparently active on more than one forum, could ever be ignorant of the definition of flaming and the necessary steps taken by moderators to control it.

OLO would have to be one of the most flexible and permissive forums I have come across insofar as allowing personal abuse and rants is concerned. By way of example, what other forum would ever allow the insulting labelling of article contributor and members alike as racists, xenophobes and religious nuts? Where else are names changed to insult the owner? The sole purpose of being here for a few is to set up and play destructive parlour games, especially 'let's you and him fight'. Personal attacks discourage others from participating and there is at least one long thread on OLO where that very subject has been discussed. At the time, members volunteered to assist in ensuring the rules and intent would be upheld.

Forum rules exist through public demand, to ensure that people participating in these forums are treated with respect and enjoy a positive experience. On all sites the rules are incontestable. It is usual for people found in violation to have their names removed from the database. It is usual for repeat offenders to be unable to make future contributions or visits.

Moderators strive for fairness and objectivity. However it is a subjective process that is not perfect and even Solomon would seem to be flawed and inconsistent in the eyes of some who would very much prefer to fight instead of having a reasonably polite, informative discussion.

All agreed to comply with the rules before being given approval to post and it is damned poor form to squib on that agreement or attempt to circumvent. Sledging the moderator is especially gutless. A more honest approach for the disaffected would be to leave quietly to find a site more suitable to their taste elsewhere.

But George saying “idiot” in reply to a post could actually be the readers digest version of a well thought out and intelligent response explaining in various ways why the person is an idiot, said something idiotic or/and is idiocy personified.

It is precise, succinct and to be appreciated for its mere simplicity in a world gone mad bloated with double meanings, excessive punctuation and spin. Idiot could show the person replying has no reason to show case their intelligence or grandstand at this point.

They did not feel the need to impress others with their grasp of the written word or even want to donate the time to educate someone who they considered really too stupid to grasp anything beyond a few suitably placed together letters.

In one small uncluttered declaration you will find the collective written works of man if you take the time to step back and let your imagination soar.

Idiot it is a towering inferno of text, it is a burst of literary lightening that becomes the firestorm, and idiot clasps a power in its tiny little fist that when wielded at the right time has all the potential to transcend mere flaming with the heat of a thousand suns.

Out of curiosity… was it you George, did Pelican call you an idiot?

Hey R0bert, always good to see you. I agree people shouldn’t have to toughen up to contribute or be heard but then we have to set some kind of toughness bar to begin with?

So there has been a change… I should have stopped and read for awhile first and I might have worked it out instead of stepping back in to what I recalled as the assassin infested corridors of OLO.

I will miss the challenge though, reasoned and well thought out conversations on a comfortable bench in the hallway are one thing but a sudden attack launched from behind a coat rack encouraged one to be alert when walking alone.

TPP, "I will miss the challenge though, reasoned and well thought out conversations on a comfortable bench in the hallway are one thing but a sudden attack launched from behind a coat rack encouraged one to be alert when walking alone."

Maybe so, depends on your personal preference, but the discussions have improved noticeably since moderation returned to the site rules. More members volunteered comments outside of the 'regulars' and there were new people joining and coming forward which was a pleasant change.

It was recently implied in a post addressed to yours truly (by a clownfish who shall remain nameless), in the course of a mere line and a half, that I was naive (I inferred this, the least of my personal failings), "full of it" (one hesitates ask of "what" exactly), a "w@nker", a "fool" and/or a "deceiver".
Of course I was very grateful to have had these gratuitous attentions lavished upon me, and didn't realise I ought to be taking offence until I happened upon this thread.
After consideration, however, I'm inclined to think the tone is hypersensitive at times on OLO, and that if the flame is unjust it stands as an enduring reproof against the flamer rather than he/she who remains chaste and unblemished.
On the other hand, I have to confess that at one time and another I have indeed been guilty of all those abominations named by that canny clownfish, ergo I hardly think there's occasion for me to take offence when a kindly old trout takes an interest in my moral and intellectual development.
Certainly we have to have rules. But occasionally they have to be broken, on passion or principle. My own proud moment of self-immolation occurred early on in the course of the Great Monkton Purge, alluded to above, and I reflect on my my time in purgatory with self-esteem.
My kids, btw, are terribly conformist! (they must have got it from their mother). Despite frequent admonishments on my part, urging them that rules must on occasion be broken, sometimes for no good reason, they seem bent on disappointing me and continue on compliantly obeying all the rules!

Hang on a minute,while we can not talk about the recent events I called for the deletion of an infamous couple of posts.
This site is better for its removal, hopefully few saw those posts.
TPP you would agree if you saw them right or wrong character assassination is surely unwanted.
Flaming, my view having been charged with it, wrongly, is deliberate insulting or belittling another.
May be we could return to a once used *car Park* a thread taking it out side in the car park to resolve issues between groups or individuals.
I agree we need intervention at times, no poster I know here aware of the full story would not have taken the actions GY did.

Cornflower,

One should be mindful that our esteemed moderator gave the okay for this thread to proceed - which shows that he thinks we can be trusted not to abuse the privilege.

Re: flaming. I believe it is a particularly flammable offence to target the author of an article - as opposed to the sentiments expressed there in. (especially if the author has a suggestive surname that invites one to have a bit of fun with it).

As for the word "idiot", which for some reason, flows more easily off the fingertips and into infamy even more readily that its superb cousin "imbecile", it is the linguistic equivalent of a Swiss Army Knife - always at the ready, but one must be judicious in its deployment.

Pied Piper "but then we have to set some kind of toughness bar to begin with"

And that's the difficult bit. It definitely has to be at a level that accepts that idea's will be challenged or sometimes totally dismantled.

The part I struggle with is comes when it comes to reflecting on a posters online behavior. Is it Ok to point out that someone is less than fastidious with the truth? What about some mocking when an idea really invites it? Reminders of past posts when a poster appears to be misrepresenting them self?

Re authors, I'm with Holly when it come's to pieces by MTR. In her case it does seem to be a bit of live by the sword etc. Again though I'd rather see the holes in her arguments highlighted than see a lot of name calling.

R0bert

TPP it was not George but an inference about an author of a particular subject - it is not important whom, I should not have made the inference in the first place. I agree with George.

Cornflower not everyone is a seasoned Net user and in fact OLO is my only forum other than a brief flirtation with New Matilda and an organic gardening site. Flaming is not something I have heard of prior to seeing the word written on OLO and I thought it was something to do with stirring the pot - which in a way I guess it is.

Insults can come in words more obvious than 'idiot' when discussing gender issues and I have yet to see anyone using the term feminazi be reprimanded for example. I think I would rather be called an idiot if one had a choice.

Fact is, OLO is not a playground for kids but hopefully one for grown ups.

ID/iot...or my..id=iot...i dont think of it as a bad-word
only bad-form...

i feel..those..who decend into name-calling..only reveal...*them-selves*...isnt it easier..to simply ignore idiots..than to try to correct their ignorance..?

idiot basiclly means...A foolish or stupid person.

..A person of profound mental/retardation..having a mental age below three years..and generally being unable to learn connected speech..or guard against common dangers.

[if the biggest danger
is going to the sin-bin...well who the real idiot?]

The term belongs..to a classification system
no longer in use and..is now considered offensive...

the intelect..of a 3 year-old
boy..that really reveals ignorance...
[BUT..a just reason..for upset?

only logical..to an imbisile..!]
imbisile..[noun]..meaning
1...A stupid or silly person;..a dolt.
2...A person..whose mental acumen..is well below par.

3. A person of moderate..to severe mental retardation..having a mental age..of from three to seven years..and generally being capable of some degree of communication..and performance of simple tasks under supervision.

The term belongs to a classification system..
no longer in use and..is now considered offensive.
..[to dolts..or idiots..or imbisiles..
who cannot get...*its intended *meaning..is self revelatory]

but enough..of this talk..of retarded..individuality...
in lue of...*on topic*..response

flaming...to me...is an incitement..to respond..[in a worse manner..than the manner of him[her]..who initiated..the flame

[ie the fuel*provider..]
even if innocently providing..the fuel...for a possable flame

not the bright spark...
striking blindly..at a fool..[imbisile]...; or..lunatick..or idiot...
intitialising..an idiots response..[rep-lie]

anyhow...i have confused myself..in reply
and long for the good ol days...[if thats not off-topic]

its good to see the old faces...id's...and id=iota

i wish for the day..that..we can write without self censure
[its said only the truth can set us free]

guess you can tell..i was never..a prefect..or..a hall-monitor
and got lost somewhere between grade two and three

and..english lit...is only the active..
for a re-noun..[best use of..some shaksperian/flame
revealing its best-de/light...as its ashes..returning..to the dust]

sorry...im trying too*..hard
to walk with both-feet..on opposing sides
of the barbed-wire fence...while remaining generalising

thank god...i dont make the rules
and dont..have to agonise..over enforcing...them,..[or not]

I reckon the moderators here do an awesome and possibly thankless job...

Funny, I used to participate in a car-enthusiast forum where the moderators became a bit of a "clicky" group high on their own authority. I ended up chipping one of those clowns for hammering a poster in a personal and nasty way because the poster wanted to sell car parts without photographs (contrary to site policy). The moderator made the statement "Surely you cannot be such a complete idiot..." in his nasty tirade, and when I chipped him he played the semantic "CANNOT be" as actually not calling the unwitting guy an idiot. Eventually there was a whole thread about the moderators attitude, dunno how it ended because I said my bit and never went back.

It would be nice to think we dont really need so many obvious rules like attack the idea not the man, personally I am a sarcastic person that hates my sarcastic comments taken literally and used as ammunition against me. But thats something I'll have to keep in mind.

R0bert is someone calling me gutless and disaffected and telling me to move to another site allowed?

I am finding it ironic that while defending moderation Corny you have probably broken all the rules the moderators wish to enforce. Is this part of some personal agenda you have?

OLO appears to be middle of the road at any rate – not overly moderated. Actually I had never seen a thread disappear before which alerted me to the fact that something was different and I better find out what; this being the whole reason for the thread being created which was at Graham’s suggestion. Got a pipe to put that in Corny?

Hey Squeers, you made a good point, and often someone acting “badly” will have their words at some later date shoved right back down there throat which can be awesome to behold. Police Your Own Actions comes to mind but I think that is an anarchist slogan? I wonder if conforming can be in itself an act of rebellion.

Belly babe, I thought I wrote the character assassination ones? I know that was what I was trying to do at the time but it also didn’t bother me that they were deleted. What was sad was that the baby got thrown out with the bathwater which made me very sorry if I had something to do with that.

Who is MTR?

Pat I look forward to reading a timely bit of sarcasm from you. Not directed at me though ay, OUG is a better target, he’ll pull it apart bit by bit until it begs for mercy and rightly so. :)

Moderating isn’t thankless… I saw much praise for the (deleted name of thread) decision that hung around for a little while, and the moderators on another site you talked about Pat seemed to be enjoying their roles. I’d be crap at it obviously. Understanding rules is enough of a challenge for me without also working out when appropriate to enforce them.

To cut to the chase, I cannot recall a public criticism of a moderator decision that wasn't a points-scoring continuation of a fight on the board and one that had likely raged across threads, often involving members of what appears to be a long-standing clique, or cliques.

The board has been great for weeks. There are reasons for that and while I do not agree with pelican's simplistic and diplomatic, "Maybe we all need a holiday from OLO from time to time so old sparring partners and perceived injustices in recurring themes that stir the passions don't get out of hand", there is evidence that applying the rules improves the forum. What other conclusion could be drawn?

It isn't the recurring themes and old sparring partners that seem to be the problem, rather it is the spite that some just cannot seem to avoid. That and the hounding of certain posters by a veteran push, apparently with the aim of driving disliked posters off the forum. That sort of bullying behaviour should be made unwelcome, but recently there has been little cause for concern about it.

I suggest that the recent vigilance by the moderator and more likely by forum members themselves acted in concert to improve the forum for vast majority.

I have just been reminded of the recent absence of baiting, another very positive change that should not be lost.

I haven't participated in this thread yet. I wanted to hear what you thought before putting my point of view.

From my point of view moderation is a movable feast. It depends on the context often as to whether a word is objectionable or not. "Idiot" was applied to an author. I've come to the conclusion after numerous complaints from authors that if we want a high quality of article, then we need to ensure that they receive respect.

That doesn't mean you can't agree with them, just that they have put the effort in to write an article and they have a right not to have people abuse them. They are also in some ways a guest, and so what might be harmless joking amongst the regulars might actually offend them. They are not necessarily familiar with the culture.

Some of the authors are regulars on the forum, which complicates things a little as well.

I have been trying to make the forum more civil. And I have been cracking down on certain behaviours.

The "cracking down" can be a bit uneven because I am dependent on people telling me when something is getting out of hand. I came across a thread this morning that I wasn't happy with, but no-one had alerted me so I made a call and left it alone. It will probably die out soon.

It can also be uneven because I have to make judgement calls and I wouldn't claim they are all entirely consistent. Particularly as some events may occur concurrently with other pressures which mean decisions have to be made quickly, and sometimes on partial information.

Now something more serious. You may want to check out http://morganalysis.blogspot.com/. This is a blog called "Cyberia" where CJ Morgan hosts a coven of current and ex-OLO forum participants who spend most of their time complaining about me, OLO and moderation decisions.

CJ is free to do whatever he wants, but if he wants to participate in this site then one of the rules that he should observe is that you abide by the rules of this site. He has posted copyrighted material on his site in an effort to debate moderation decisions. I don't have the time or resources to spend arguing with him on his blog. I object to material which I decided was not appropriate for this site being put on another. I don't think his participation here can be viewed as anything but an effort to be in the longterm disruptive.

So I'm proposing to ban him from the site. It's a pity. When he posts on topic rather than provoking others he makes some reasonable points.

With respect to this you might check out the post http://morganalysis.blogspot.com/2010/11/rules-of-engagement.html. Apparently because of the way OLO is programmed when a thread is deleted the individual comments live on, although they are inaccessible unless you have the exact address. According to CJ this reflects on my moderation.

Severin also puts private correspondence up on Morgan's blog site about another moderation decision. You can read about it on http://morganalysis.blogspot.com/2010/10/democracy-or-demockery.html. I'm intending to ban Severin as well.

I'm intending to ban Severin as well.

Unfortunately the word limit won't let me finish this post in one, so it will be serialised. This is not something I generally condone. :(

You'll also get an idea of how mature Cyberia is if you want to check out the photo of me fitted with a Hitler moustache. http://morganalysis.blogspot.com/2010/10/grima-fuhrer.html. If you're into Godwin's Law this is one for the scrap book.

If anyone thinks you can run a site without moderation, you might like to check out the "No d-heads" rule that Cyberia runs as part of its moderation policy. I think it would be much harder for a number here to get a post up there, than it is for their antagonists to get one up here.

The reason for that is because this site is about open discussion, and the rules are policed to ensure that the discussion is open. Some of the commenters on this site who are also on Cyberia are not interested in open debate - they want to close it down unless it agrees with their point of view.

This might give some of you some insight into moderation decisions. When you have people who are this intent on causing trouble you have to deal with them, otherwise they will end up running the forum, in which case it would become as rancid as Cyberia.

Corny you’re still doing it even though you’ve been told there is no criticism intended only me (just me) wanting clarification of the rules and a catch up of how things are being done now. Nothing has been continued here or carried over. No one questioned if the forum had improved or not and no suggestion made that enforcement of rules would not improve content.

You seem to be reading this thread with your chin over your left shoulder.

So anyhoo… after reading Grahams post an overall theme is forming that OLO is running a majority rules type deal with a notification/s that a post is probably in want of deleting which then alerts the moderator and the final decision is theirs but in general getting a notification from anyone would be half the death warrant signed for post or thread.

Graham wants more civility and is inclined to tolerate certain behaviors’ less. I know he said that it just helps me get it clear in my mind to repeat stuff.

It is appreciated that the difficulties in moderating a site about Opinions is going to be rife with objections. So now I understand the not discussing moderation decisions because yep that could just drag on forever.

Now I prefer details but I can see that it can’t be that easy, we can’t have a precise list of do’s and don’ts. There is a sort of ebb and flow to conversations and the way communities form and what becomes generally acceptable over time? Like the mention of Authors maybe not understanding was has become normal practice to others here?

I launched back in and ran straight into someone I clashed with immediately given I always react when anything is to do with the protection of children. This is probably what is called a personal agenda but I’m still not 100% on that one.

There is a blog out there dedicated to complaints about you Graham? I actually find that a little creepy and stalker like.

[Deleted for flaming and poster suspended.]

No, it's a private blog where various people who've been on the rougher end of Graham's 'moderation' kept in touch, let off steam and had a few laughs. I can't see how it's against the rules for users to discuss OLO moderation decisions privately, off the site. I've never linked to the 'Cyberia' blog from OLO, and most of its members don't post here much any more anyway.

Is it against the rules to talk about the rules in private? Or, heaven forfend, to make private jokes about Graham's mercurial moderation?

If Graham bans me for these deadful transgression, bye folks - those who want to keep in contact know how :)

Apparently CJ has locked his Cyberia blog down now, but it was not a private blog. His last post is disingenuous. The people on the blog were not on the "rougher end" of my moderation. At least one of them had never been suspended. Others had, but for good cause.

I took the precaution of downloading the blog before I posted. The fact that I could do that proves that it was not

private. In any case, when I moderate a thread I treat the correspondence as private. Apparently CJ doesn't respect those

sorts of conventions. In the interests of a full and frank discussion I post the evidence.

The pages that I linked to can be found at:
www.onlineopinion.com.au/documents/articles/Postcards from Cyberia Democracy or Demockery.mht
www.onlineopinion.com.au/documents/articles/Postcards from Cyberia Grima Fuhrer.mht
www.onlineopinion.com.au/documents/articles/Postcards from Cyberia Rules of Engagement.mht

I had some difficulty getting one or two of them to open. If that is a general problem I will have to look at it again later today, after I get some sleep.

Is it against the rules to talk about the rules in private? Well that wasn't what he was doing. If you read the posts CJ's

intention was to undermine this site. He can do that, but not by creating mayhem here. I have no control over his behaviour elsewhere, but it is strange behaviour for someone who claims to be a senior academic.

Thank you for the opportunity, the lessons, the advices, the views.

Graham Y is right in his decision to take action on me. He chooses to as this forum is his to monitor and control. We joined as guest and with every group, organization, etc. we should always abide by their laws, rules, and wishes. He tried to put out a raging fire before it burnt the whole place down. If you do not respect the rules, we should leave in peace.

I did wrong here and I suffered the consequences. If I practiced the rules of this forum in the first place, I wouldn't have had to suffer the mental and emotional self-torture I caused to myself.

I am grateful that Graham Y has allowed me to post. As I have learned so much in my short time here. This place teaches me so many lessons in life. I teaches me never to judge, it is harder to do it with strangers that you can only read their writings. Some of the posters here are wise beyond their words. I learned that anger and revenge should have no place in my heart, and a time-out is good for me to reflect on my actions.( I actually ended up abusing Graham in my rage, sorry for that)

I feel we should all obey the rules of this forum, treat each other with more respect. If I am allowed to continue posting here, I shall try my best to practice this. If I sometimes forget, I hope the rest of the members here remind me of my wrong doings.

Those who choose not to obey by the rules, it is your choice but no one forced you to join this forum and others shouldn't be punished by your decisions.

I thank you all of you who have thought me all these lessons. Some of you have come up with great suggestions in your writings. I take the good, and try to forget the bad. It's not easy, but practice makes perfect. I would like to stay here as currently this place is convenient for me for my journey.

Somehow it is human nature to 'flame' others, as it kinds of brings us some satisfaction. I have done all the wrong as the rest of you, and I am so sorry for that. I day to reflect has made me realize how I have been writing here and I hope I do not repeat my mistakes again. It was never a good feeling. When I write, I don't just address the people here, I address the reality in my life, the people who mean a lot to me, the things that happened on that day. Still, I should be more discipline here, and if I choose to vent, I should do it else where so I can respect the rules of this forum.

Each day is a new learning experience. Each day I learn more and more lessons. I learn from the virtual world, I learn from the real world.

"This game we play of life... Is tricky just like a game of chess. Make the wrong move and you lose a piece, a piece of ourselves. Think wisely, try to consider all the consequences of a move before making it. Once you make the move, you either win, or you loose. How much of it, depends on how big a risk you are daring to take in this game of life.-E.T."

Hitler mustache, cracked me up. LOL.

You seem to be going into personal details I reckon. But that's just in my humble opinion.

jinny the ninny
a.k.a. the devil ;)

Well I want to be truly open here.
I have grown here, my first posts, posts for years before in other sites too are a mess.
I did not think like that, my words just did not flow out of my fingers as they came out of my mouth.
I grew too in my views, never far from Labor/Union, even when critical it was in my view for the good of both.
I fell foul of many, fought like a child, mud ball for mud ball.
People I should have ignored, but fell time and again into a verbal war no one could win.
Then , Abbott won the leadership and politics changed.
I had/have opinions and voiced them, we here in OLO GY may not agree started an unseemly debate.
I understand why some left, maybe/properly they and me should have backed of.
We felt, truly,thread titles turning up and posts seen did not relate to fairness.
As we squabbled like chooks in a hen yard GY posted an intervention, that held the key to others leaving me beginning a search for another site.
We felt, can our belief hurt us? a balance had been lost.
My search was not rewarded, no one told me to ace it up I at last said no more, I will not get involved with those who play baiting childish games or their threads.
continued

i thought i would check-out..cj's forum
got this mess-age

<<This blog...is open to invited readers only>>
which i find revealing*

*..revealing in that everyone there must have been invited*

*meaning each has been deliberatly trageted...for specific reason*
or by specific..adgenda?...or specific timming*[ie as suspended?]

which brings to mind..how cj coukld know..suspention to be inevitable[imminent]..or actually achieved*..[i use the word achieved..deliberatly...;

meaning i deliberated if one could complain to achieve a desired result...and other sopeculations...that are possable..but move-on

<<If you are a reader..of this blog,
tell us who you are!
Sign in using your google-Account>>

and that was the one step too far
so i didnt bother seking out the confirmation of what grayham posted
[but do not doudt..what he has written..to be correct]

it strikes me..that accumulating disaffected olo members
must be about more than just getting the numbers up at a blog

but dont know enough to add more light to the topic

so saying...i repeat my love for olo
and anticipate...the next incarnation..

[wishing others would... add-in more ideas to make..it better]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11090&page=0

personally i feel...the offending bits are best esdited out
rather than the whole thread deleted...but realise time constraints..possably makes this too difficult

it occurs that if idiot is offencive..it should simply be put on the hot list...like other words..that get auto censorship

ps dont take this as a flame..to add more fuel
to the firestarter..[re cj's blog]..

ideally i would like to see grayham...host it...
somewhere on site...ie that we can keep these things..in-house

where we can be...*with our olo-peers..
yet keep our whole blogging histry..within the same...patent-ownership realm..[forum..format]...linked to the same user histry

[rather than clicking all over the globe..simply to find out whjere this or that..topic..histry..[his-story]..went]...maybe even as a paid option...[like freedom of information...re-quest?]

I have not looked at CJ Morgans site, may not do so.
I like the bloke we differ but I like conservatives too.
Foxy will be there, she was baited I was there day after day and saw it all, see TPP said it like it is ,like me she coped it because she held different views.
Now do not get me wrong, that difference makes us interesting, its the reason we come back.
Baiting exists in only a few the fact is I truly thought GY was being one sided, I WAS WRONG.
I ask no protective shield not free air to say as I wish, not changes in moderation.
I take full responsibility for my posts future and past.
Do not say cornflower the loss of CJM and Foxy makes this site better and while we should understand others views are a right we must too understand thinking differently is no crime.
This thread came about because some things should remain private and some tried to post things we are better than.
I understand why but unless you know the full story be assured we are better for those actions.

That's both hilarious and deeply sad, Graham.

It amazes me that people can make it to adulthood whilst remaining so puerile.

The exchange between Foxy and Ginx in the discussion under the edited pictures of Graham is an interesting read.

R0bert

It is no doubt forlorn, but I still hope this situation can be resolved without barring, or voluntary barring of, some of OLO's best contributors. The fact that, as OUG reports, the blog says it is "open to invited readers" should redound to its credit. Like it or not we are all subject to private vilification. During my more sombre moments I even suspect poor Squeers is not universally admired..
On the subject of blogs, I am indeed naive. I was recently the subject of an innuendo (I think), when a savvy poster implied I was a blogger, his/her rationale being that s/he can always pick em. And yet neither Squeers nor his puppet-master has ever blogged. Indeed, the blogosphere remains a mysterious realm we don't altogether believe in--like heaven and hell... Can you enlighten me, OUG?
In any event, if my esteemed peers are to be burned I hope they will soon be reincarnated.
I would only add that on occasion here personalities and cliques bulk larger than content. Though I'm on friendly terms with one or two members, that has no bearing on the cut and thrust of debate, and should not. While Squeers is undoubtedly "full of it", and a wonker(?) he does take pride in the "rational kernel" within his often satirical tone. Unfortunately, however, the rhetorical (sometimes metaphysical) shell is seldom penetrated.

P.S. If Foxy is out there, her polite (if conservative) eloquence and wit are sorely missed..

squeers if you are a wonker chocolate buy's friends.

Just in case there is confusion my previous reference to Foxy was to highlight the level of nastiness directed at her on that blog. I want Holly to get an account over there and see how long the no d-head rules thing lasts. Somehow I suspect that his opinions would be less equal than others, his right to express himself less valid than the rights of others on the site.

I don't know the history here which upset Foxy enough to leave but I get the impression from comments on the blog that the tipping point was one comment deletion. I assume that was on top of some other concerns. I miss her as well.

R0bert

Hahahahaha!

How immature! I cant believe this breakaway forum full of rebellious bad boys and girls. It's all so edgy! So daring!

As Leyton would say, Come'on! Are people really that shattered with moderation decisions? Ever heard the expression water off a ducks back?

Man, ever heard the expression get a life? I had no idea the long standing OLO clique had made a breakaway competition ala Super League to whine and moan about, what 3 or 4 suspensions? Waaaah!

Houellie,

This should lift your spirits no end.
Only yesterday you appeared a trifle wan and lacking in "Houellie spirit"...my grandmother would have prescribed you a good "tonic".

Laughter is the best medicine, eh.

Poirot

People have been banned from this website for expressing their opinions on another website. It is is both funny and sad.

Sad because:

Pelican is deleted for using the word 'idiot' yet, as she says, 'feminazi' never raises an eyebrow.

Careful what you say in the privacy of you own home - you may be banned - no-one expects the OLO inquisition.

Oh Poirot I just read that link and I feel like a voyeur!

Who needs Days of Our Lives!

It just blows me away how much people care about this stuff. The funniest thing is they've made a break-away forum and it's got people fighting about moderation of the new breakaway forum.

Apart form that. it's got a bit of a... "we've made a new cubby house, now what do we do.. Um' the weathers been nice" feel to it.

Johnny Rotten,

I was looking at things from Houellie's perspective, knowing how much he enjoys a little contretempts during the course of his day.

I haven't actually read anything from that forum so I have little idea of the detail of what was discussed.

"People have been banned from this website for expressing their opinions on another website. It is is both funny and sad."

That's not how I interpreted it. I had the impression that it was for repeated breach of the rules here (and I saw a post by Severin yesterday where she was clearly trying to aggravate Graham).

I don't recall instances of Pelican being called a Feminazi (but if she say's so I'm inclined to believe her). The question would be if that's happened since Graham has started taking a firmer hand on what's allowed and if the offending post was point out to Graham. It's also relevant that Graham has made a point that he is trying to have author's treated with a bit more courtesy (even if their idea's are dismantled).

I think that you are misreading what Graham's doing.

R0bert

Squeers/quote...<<Indeed,..the blogosphere*..remains a mysterious realm..we don't altogether believe in--like heaven and hell... Can you enlighten me,..OUG?>>

it would be a pleasure..[to try..
and convert the imagry..into word]

the heavens...[and hells]...are places
where like..assosiate..ONLY with like..
[ie like goats..can only assosiate..with goats...sheep with sheep...wheat with wheat...and tares...ONLY with tares

the simuli...clearly*..reveals..the syn-crony-ious/joinder..
between those..EARNING*..[worthy.of an invite...from those outcast[lower-cast's]..not getting..*in...or not invited to their words-feast

unlike these...diversified...specifified..wordy realms
the astral-realms...[of olo]..where we are allowed..[en-courage-d]..to interact freely..good/bad..greenie/tory...lab-ourrat..[rite]..alike]...

there is...in the excluded realms...their herd
a similtude...feeding of simular enjoyments..with
those feeling..at home..[come-fort-ed]...with those also thus rejected

much..as/is..*able..to be done..on earth..
so too..is it allowed to be done..in word...
in these wordy outer-realms...needing their comforts

or here..in-deed..[for the benificence of us all
by know-ledge..or works..that produce the good or bad fruits alike....

not only..*in the realm of words...is found these simultudes
[the cyber realm..;olo..having a more respectfull higher comminality]..but the exclusive clicks..thier one mind thinking

their..restrictive..world of word...becomes their equivelent of this material realm...of cause/affect..[where the affect is elinminated...as their cause..is thus nulified

[the similtude of vision-ing..is astounding]

That little peep hole was very instructive really. I think ginx (aka 'The vile ginx') had some very perceptive things to say. I bet they regret letting her in the house:-) She's like the drunk relative at Christmas who causes havoc with a few choice truths.

She sure has Foxy pinned. Maybe they're sisters. Even brought out some of the real Foxy (Lexi) that I've been prodding and trying to get to for years. It's a breakthrough!

I think we should send r0bert for a few sessions with ginx.

BTW I picked Lexi before reading that link so I want some applause because she cunningly changed her trademark 5 words a line style but I still recognised her.

Ah, like sands through the hourglass...

I do love a good drama. I mean I feel a bit sad it isn't revolving around me, but it's nice all the same.

Somewhere, somehow, I think Piper has brought all this fun back into OLO. Do YOU believe in coincidence?

ONE..or many?

..or all spirits..acting of one mind?
atonement..[at-one-meant]

<<However you try..to fight this,..u will not win.>>
im a lover...your the..fighter
and never the twain shall meet..i dont..*need to win
i just love playing the game..

<<Love conquers all,>>...love that con-queers..isnt love

if we love conquering..then we love the*win...
[to win..others must loose]..

love MUST not have a winner..[whiner]..nor looser

we agree<<..if there is no love,..there is no hope.>>
where love is..nothing*ELSE..can*..come-in
where there is hope..{for love}..there is hope for something better

<<I have seen..how many care,>>
but also..i have seen..how many..couldnt care...less*
i dont focus..on their negativity...but must realise we are all different...because..this is my life-path..as theirs is theirs

<<I know..how many..are making a difference.>>
AND ALSO..THE MANY..WHO DONT..[darn cap-loc]..<Dang!>

<<Forgive..the ones..that have caused you wrong,>>
turn..the other cheek...who judges..right..or wrong..do they judge rightly..or wrongly..just thinking the question gets your theory wrong

<<they have their own reasons..for making those*choices.>.
have their..*own..reasonings...fears..
learnings/earnings..[life-path]

<<I respect ur views.>>
and i love your fearlesness
no more i love your strength
no...[must focus..on the words]
yes..{got-it]..i RESPECT..your vieuw..TOO

<<Cheers..and stay positive..:)>
dont change jinny*

change the need to change..[for a real change]..
and thus..*be the change.,.you need others to be

I think the censorship of this site is problematic, as is all censorship.
A healthy community can defend itself from flamers and troublemakers. Moderation should be limited to spammers and slanderous attacks, not opinion or discourteousness. No one is unbiased and moderation is easily misused to silence those one does not agree with. The fact that me and belly seem to be the only ones still here with even vaguely left wing views shows what can happen.

As to CJs site I couldnt get in either but I am real keen to have a look. I recently had the exact same idea after some of my posts were, in my view, unfairly censored so CJ if your out there-let me in!
I now find myself, once again, questioning everything I write, fearing to write what I really feel and worst of all just deciding its not worth contributing at all. Thats why I hate censorship and feel this site has been going in the wrong direction moderation wise.

Diversity of opinion is why I come here. Censorship only lessens that diversity.

Welcome back Jinny.

Whatever DreamOn’s post contained I must have read without really taking it in or spotting anything wrong with it.

And R0bert I never picked up that Severin was trying to aggravate. I’m starting to get worried but maybe seeing these things is about being here and seeing the build up and the various exchanges regularly.

Houel people are that shattered by moderation decisions, I’ve seen them shattered and listened to how shattered they are. Hmm… dunno about shattered, some were just bloody infuriated and looking for payback.

I have seen similar experiences in other umm… communities.

Exclusions, denial of being heard affects people quite badly. Humans everywhere get very upset depending on, I guess, how important they considered their role in the community or how much they had invested in it or probably what chunk of their life was taken up by it.

Raging anger or thoroughly emotionally upset about it.

Hopefully moderators have some understanding of this, I wouldn’t demand from a soapbox that they “have” to but I hope most are people that ponder it from time to time.

Ready?

On the other hand the people that chose to get upset just rip my undies. Awesome that in their insulated world being banned from one place is enough to devastate them in various ways but for gods sakes someone pass them a freakin tissue and tell them to get a grip.

Mail me – never did change my e-mail so can be found somewhere here, I’ll give you a list of Wrongs In The World you can go focus on and bloody strangely OLO Moderation aint on it.

The time it would take to find Grahams photo and alter it I could have spent in more noteworthy ways - like picking my damn nose.

I like knowing the WHY of things, just tell me why if you ever boot me Graham. I will put on my big girl pants and wander off into the sunset. So yeah if you do ever ban me do it at sunset.

I went to the door found the welcome a bit confronting and left like OUG did.
But it was not crafted to steal our posters,of the four I learn live there from this thread two are missed two not.
Foxy left after a post of hers like one of mine was deleted.
We both had tried to get some balance in one of quite a few threads that we never should have bothered with.
And I said more about it in another thread this morning.
That thread single handedly bought about in my view this problem.
EVERY ONE of us has opinions,and holds to them, the brightest know we may not always be right.
I still hurt ,yet except, after a poster intent on highlighting child molesters within my party implied I too was one, after reporting the post GY said he had thought long and hard about it, considered my party's actions, but removed it because I had been charged.
We ALL do get it wrong we all have biases if FOXY reads this come back.
You can survive in better company that at least one combative rude poster named in your present home.

GrahamY says:

"If anyone thinks you can run a site
without moderation, you might like to
check out the "No d-heads" rule that
Cyberia runs as part of its moderation
policy."




Cyberia has moderation, and a moderation policy?


They do say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.




I have not been able to go to Cyberia. See why here: http://bit.ly/dzQCUH

Am I right in thinking I might compromise my OLO anonymity if I was to use my email address, and presumably my gmail password, to attempt to enter Cyberia? I seem to have been left out in the cold. Perhaps it has something to do with my particular sort of head? Oh dear, I suppose I shall just have to live with it as one of life's little disappointments.

With respect to Godwin's Law, I do have to admit getting a kick out of the nicely understated caption to the poster titled 'Der flammenkrieg hat begonnen' that said "Its common knowledge that the Germans invented flame wars" on the Encyclopedia Dramatica page I linked to earlier. One should note, too, the prominence given to the word 'idiot' on that page.

Incidentally, I understand that word to derive from the Greek 'idiotes' (as romanly translitterated), meaning to only be concerned with one's own interests or point of view, at the expense of having a more civically responsible outlook. Just a thought.




The long train of compartmentalised OLO users slowly wound its way through the wintry literary landscape of Higher Salacia. There was nothing like a visit to this part of the world to lift the level of posting activity. The train would doubtless soon reach its destination of Oz Wiccan, where posters could concentrate on other things and arrive at a final solution.

'depending on, I guess, how important they considered their role in the community or how much they had invested in it or probably what chunk of their life was taken up by it.'

Bingo!

I often made note of how seriously some of that crowd took themselves over the years. It's all good of course, I just find it fascinating how people think their comments are so important. Like they're changing the world or something. Some even used the expression 'My work here', it was a sight to behold.

I mean I've often been called a narcissist (A label that I like the sound of, it makes me feel even more important ;-) but I've always maintained I'm here for entertainment and never had these delusions of grandeur that my insights are so profound that others should never be denied them. (I've been called a sociopath and even a psychopath in my early days too, but unfortunately I've been letting myself down lately and it's been ages since I've had that much fun.)

People used to complain about my entertainment being 'at others' expense' which I always reply with, 'what is it costing them'? There is a scroll wheel on most mouses and also if you don't have one you can click on the bar in the right hand side instead, in a retro style that is somewhat satisfying.

These moderation topics normally come around every six months or so. It would be much easier for me if Foxy and Exam could play their normal roles again here today (You are missed guys), but in her absence I'll just have to continue to throw my voice.

Anyway, in summary, the scroll wheel is the most effective moderator, giving me complete independence in banning posters from reaching my brain. Not that I use it unless I know exactly what the more repetitive posters (Whistler anyone) are going to say. Every poster has the means to ban any posters they don't like, by scrolling past that posters comments.

It's genius I know, you can all thank me later.

mikk,

'The fact that me and belly seem to be the only ones still here with even vaguely left wing views shows what can happen.'

Oh come on! pelican has a great big poster of Che on her bedroom wall, sips Chardonnay while she posts and tells us all about the lattes she has with her elite friends in their ivory towers.

Even I often dis private schools and PPPs.

Oh yea Piper,

MTR is a strange woman who posts sometimes about men being gratified. It really annoys her when men are gratified without permission.

Belly,

Is Foxy OLO's first martyr?

Oh how the mighty have fallen. You should read that link Graham puts after the link to CJs site (It's a static copy of what you used to be able to get to). The new Foxy really lets loose. I think OLO was holding her back.

OUG,

'but also..i have seen..how many..couldnt care...less*
i dont focus..on their negativity...but must realise we are all different...because..this is my life-path..as theirs is theirs
'

I don't think it's negative not to care. Also I've always wanted to ask you, would it be ok if I copied all your posts and made a book. I need time to ponder your words, and I would like to do it in the bath. I promise I wont sell it for profit.

Flaming is making a comment with intent to cause anger. To 'inflame'. Whether veiled, or not. It's a common term used all over the net. Trolling is like flaming but is done for 'fun', to create a specific reaction where the troll knows this will happen. It's probably more commonly referred to as 'stirring', but not necessarily to cause anger.

Defamation can't be done in here. IT's called libel.

Arjay is one I would say has a permanent agenda. Others can have an agenda, but that may just be pride and stubbornness that comes across as agenda. It isn't black and white. The person accusing others of agenda may actually be the one with the agenda. Strawman arguments I believe is what that is called.

Oh, read much of the thread. How ridiculous.

Houel I read it… I’m in it! I famous!

My little scroll wheel was starting to smoke.

But now I finally know why the thread was deleted.

Foxy posts always fascinated me. The men here drove me nuts when they couldn’t see the occasional hidden razors in the honey. But I considered that a typical male flaw and not mine to worry about or warn them about. Yes I know you were on her tail, so to speak.

I bags martyrdom too - even if I suspect I was completely wrong. I started hearing about stuff happening, lawyer’s letters being sent to all sorts of websites by NGO’s and DoCS. Hosts of the servers (is that right?) started shutting down peoples websites after receiving letters. One incident, not far from me, a women had police in her home taking her computer off her. Parents claiming access visits denied because of their online posts.

Bloody hell I thought, mostly my thoughts are simple. Better create some distance before I get people up to their necks in it. But anyways I’m over it now.

Hey Stg, flaming may be common but I have only heard it here but then again I only want the OLO definition anyways. I haven’t heard of the straw man thing. Scapgoating I hadn’t heard of until recently either.

So much to learn still.

To my good friend Severin - all you did was give your POV - you never set out to hurt anyone.

And to Morgan and Foxy - freedom of speech is more important than ego.

"They'll stone you when you're trying to be so good
They'll stone you just like they said they would
They'll stone you when you're trying to go home
They'll stone you when you're there all alone
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned

They'll stone you when you're walking on the street
They'll stone you when you're trying to keep your seat
They'll stone you when your walking on the floor
They'll stone you when your walking to the door
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned

They'll stone you when you're at the breakfast table
They'll stone you when you are young and able
They'll stone you when you're trying to make a buck
They'll stone you and then they'll say good luck
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned

Well They'll stone you and say that it's the end
They'll stone you and then they'll come back again
They'll stone you when you're riding in your car
They'll stone you when you're playing you guitar
Yes But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned
Alright

Well They'll stone you when you are all alone
They'll stone you when you are walking home
They'll stone you and then say they're all brave
They'll stone you when you're send down in your grave
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned."

Bob got it right.

Houellebecq,..as far as im concerned...if its on the web..its there for people to do with..as they chose...

grayham..[or rather olo]..naturally holds the first claim..
being the owner of the format/forum...

and..we all had to.;.agree to;..the terms...conditions..to post here...so likely grayham has first bite

then there is the other..'inputs'..like the questions..that im replying too...and other referances..needing to link to..the information source's..in its origonal context..[that is hard to put into a book]

but im thinking more your teasing..
[your book would be much more readable]...

mine is more for fish-wrapping...or..to help those having other block-ages..nessitating*..a smaller*room..than the bathroom..and..*the smaller bidette/bath..with those tiny paper/hand-towels

anyhow..im enjoying..the talking...as we wend our way
towards an olo classic..the like of which we get at least weekly
but that others could only dream about

my last post was meant to be part two...of a reply to another topic

that..because of my intermitant...web*availability..
i clicked on in the 10 second window...vodaphone allows me...
[to encourage me to renew..their service]..

but that im learning to live with..
[till i see..if its worth bying another..12 months acces]

im so over posting..the same things...and
change simply isnt going to come..via blogging...
[and im not willing to sell..my soul..to do it..the other ways]

its all been said...its just people
arnt ready..to act..to change things

Good God, now there's a song. BWHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Graham has suspended me heaps. Get over yourselves. Who cares, it's his site to do with what he will. If you come to mine and I decide that your comments can only be limericks then that is how it will work. Too much ego here.

Loyalty to friends is easy when nothing rotten is in the air. But when rumours are flying, or innuendos, or betrayals - that is when the quality of true friendship becomes the stuff of heroic response.

Johnny Rotten - your friends are lucky to have your support. In the strongest of personalities, in the most blessed of lives, there are times when a person emotionally falls down. Who else can anyone depend on, to lend the resources of kindness and strength to help them get back up? A friend like you - who will not close his heart
and condemn - knowing that condemnation hurts the soul.

Johnny has FoXy been buried to her waist in the ground and had rocks of just the right size thrown at her by a crowd or is she over on another little blog thing cruising along doing her own thing without a backward glance?

I have a suspicion that she got right stroppy and hurled a few sneaky stones back after an altercation here but hardly any reason to go throwing Bob around.

Loyalty LeXi? Is loyalty more than side picking when in this conteXt? When I think of eXamples of a loyal friend they seem to include more. I don’t know if I would eXaggerate simple support of an eX-member of OLO and rename it loyalty. EXcuse me better go fiX my X it appears to be having some kind of fit.

OUG answer me this, what change do you want? You mean a change on OLO or something in your life? You are bored?

Oh and if I could turn your mind in another direction… Graham approved a thread for me, one where the nature of it means (if I calculate correctly) no answer can be wrong and argument would only occur if the topic changed. A thread I predict not one offensive post will be left. Is it possible?

There once was an OLO member who started a blog
He had some rules posted that everyone thought odd.
To log in and post
The members would boast
Only limericks got through, Stg is a sod.

[Deleted for attempting to discuss specific moderation decisions.]

Well I have not had a look, will not, see its a game we kids played.
Yes I have had my moments but am here still.
Because this site is both private property and the best.
We are making this thread a big one, because it interests us, not I think to throw stones.
I have seen far worse than foxy, in fact can not remember much bad about her.
We all should not fall in to the foolish responses to even more foolish posts/threads.
In way we give air to the foolishness by not ignoring it.
I would rather swim in the OLO pool and often clash than try to find one that always agrees with my views.

Comments and behaviour could be improved if members were required to provide and maintain a working email address with an ISP.

A current photograph, religion, marital status, sexual orientation,
IQ, ethnic background, citizenship,gender, all might help as well (joking).

Dear Belly,
whether or not OLO is "the best" is debatable (I can't be bothered looking elsewhere, and Graham "is" amusing); but whatever its merits it's only as good as its content (contributors), and that I'm afraid is indifferent.
Latterly, treading the halls of academy, Squeers and I are as one in our loathing of inflated, indeed ponderous (apt to burst)egos..
Ah yes, we pose and pontificate too, but that is mere form--de rigueur. There must-needs be substance beneath the persiflage, which we pride ourselves in. And that is what is too often wanting at OLO.
Squeers is yet to encounter anything remotely challenging here..

Graham does get a harsh bollocking on that site as per his links. Moderation is part of forum life and from the little gleaned of other sites this one should be commended for it's wide audience.

Graham's decision to delete my 'idiot' post was the right decision IMO and I think the reaction to some of GY's previous deletions or suspensions is out of proportion.

Maybe other comments do get ignored when they shouldn't but unless someone reports an 'offense' GY may not always be across the site as a one-man band. The Hitler analogy is offensive guys.

Lexi, "A current photograph, religion, marital status, sexual orientation, IQ, ethnic background, citizenship,gender, all might help as well (joking).'

More a classic straw-man diversion than a 'joke' I would suggest. As you are aware, none of those were suggested or have any relevance tp what I said.

It was a suggestion aimed at other things, but yes it could deter those posting under a number of aliases if that is what you are thinking about.

piper quote..<<..OUG answer me this,>>.oops...that wouldnt be to topic?

sounds like it would make a great new thread
imagine..all our wish-lists..in..*one_thread

[if only..we could be honest..that thread would be a winner]

<<what change do you want?>>
im sort-of looking forward..to grayhams...'new-blog/format'

so editing*..posts would be great
[onto a..master-page..we could call our blog page]

also what comes to mind..is an easy*share button..[like they got on some news-sites..that posts..the topic to facebook etc]

also what comes to mind..is a button..that saves*..a given post..ONTO[or into..a favoured posts page]...with another button..for posts we want to keep in mind...that may reveal systemised abuse..for the worriers amoung us

[like flame..*set-ups..that by themselves
dont look*..bad..but in total..*show a systematic plan of attack]

<<You mean...a change on OLO>>no im sort of fond of it as it is
[would like to keep this..PLUS..the new*blog...with the same conveniant..not having to log_in{constantly}..features]

<<or something..in your life?>>
oh dear..thats an open festering wound
but could make an interesting...topic...would need to think about it

[im pretty much a fatalist...that we get the life we earned..
i set-up..my life the way it is...planned for my retirement years ago..now just doing it easy...maybe too easy]

not sure i could change anything now
sure its lonely...but then..the mind imagry..
this guys gets is so entertaining...its hard to feel alone

<<You are bored>...no more and..no less than others
i got plenty i could be doing.....but im having too much fun alone

i dont know..how to be bored
is it not thinking..not doing...not nuthin...
well im thinking..24/7...doing what needs doing...and trust its something..that helps spead the cheer...]

besides im not a great complainer
i tried a few complaints to grayham
and he just..said..toughen-up..and he was right

everything..in moderation..
[see how i brought it back to topic?]
from its beginning..in offtopic..back to the moderated rule

I read your post Danielle. Tricky isn’t it, shouldn’t be but I keep writing stuff then thinking “oh no” and killing my own messages half written now.

So let’s do this thing, we’re growing up and moving on and surging forth into a new and civil age of Online Opinion.

Watched a fight recently on another site, got down right filthy, out of hand, feelings were probably really badly hurt given the accusations being thrust into public. I’m all good not seeing another one ever again.

That was cruder though where here the meanness from some can be quite calculated but just as staggering... yep I’m happy to say goodbye to it and just retain the fond memories of the odd battle here.

Cries of “but he did it first” or “but she got away with it yesterday” don’t cut it really... and of course some people get away with some stuff cause they have some kind of tenor or personal connection to the boss, real life for adults is just like that isn’t it? I obviously benefit from neither of those things and I really do believe I’ll be fine and probably cop the consequences now and again if I do mess up.

Belly babe you asked somewhere if you had upset me… I can’t find it now but the answer is no absolutely not, not ever that I can recall. And umm... Foxy is back she’s just a different name and writing longer sentences.

Corny good call – I went and checked my other e-mail, I’d forgotten OLO mail went to it after my Jewel name stopped being used. Doh.

Much of the criticism of Graham seems to revolve around perceived political bias. I'm roughly on the same side of politics as Graham (although I suspect we would differ on specific issues) so I be missing stuff on that front.

As far as I'm aware Graham is christian (although not I suspect the nasty inflict it on everyone else variety). I'm a former christian and have on a number of occasions made some fairly strong posts regarding the christian message, the nature of the christian god etc. I've tried to do so within the published rules and with some respect for christians who are not part of the extremist portion of christianity but I suspect that much of the content could still be deeply offensive to some. I've never as far as I'm aware seen any sign of censorship of opinions critical of the faith.

I suspect that if political bias was a reason for an uneven hand in deletions and suspensions those of us who post critically in regard to christianity should be having a similar experience. I'm utterly convinced that does not happen, at worst we may see more theology pieces than others of us would choose.

R0bert

Cornflower - my remark was meant as a joke. As for people posting under a number of aliases - as far as I am aware that is not permissable.

HA, pied piper, I like it.

My blog is actually called, Warning: May contain traces of bast*&d. Seriously. lol

So,

the glorious people's republic of Pomerania, having been towed beyond the five mile limit and set itself up as "the even *more* famous *pirate* OLO", experiences a global experiment in the adiabatic expansion of heated fluids.

I suggest they be slated for immediate offshore detention and indefinite (but entirely organic) processing.

Rusty

Kinda boring if you're just sitting around agreeing with each other.

The new rules created some confusion and fright

Was this new way of posting going to lack bite?

Well hell no I say

We know how to play

Courtesy used as a weapon will work on this site.

Okay Stg I’m done with limericks I can never get them flowing right. I personally plan on being extremely disagreeable in an infuriatingly agreeable way. Just for the moments when someone does argue with me in an overly polite manner though. :) Rusty is already in the groove.

Hey OUG you did bring that home nicely but what new blog?

The Pied Piper.

Iam only just learning.....can you teach me?

BLUE

we are not bad, merely interesting, and more aware, caring and knowledgeable compared to the general population. so many thoughts, so little time. i remember sometime in the last year, there was this email circulating about how we should, however busy we are in our lives, respond to a message we receive, because it is considered to be polite. Because when someone sends you a message, they actually put an effort into reaching out to you for whatever reasons, and the least we can do is to respond back, no matter who it is from. because there is someone out there that might be expecting a respond.

i consider it rude when someone doesn't respond to my questions, emails, messages, but that is MO.

adults are so difficult to convince... stubborned in their ways, just as one of the posters here gave a perfect example. it is so difficult for them to apologize when they do wrong. it is a lot easier to be nasty and egoistic(the way i see it).

we come here to pick on each others brains(yes, back to that). we try to pick the good stuff, like when we are kids, and our parents served us food, we picked what we liked. that is before everything got so complicated tho. we think about our childhood memories(some like to block them out because it hurts them to much thinking about it), because it brings us into a happier place.

back to the topic..

good to see a better sense of humour, made me smile alot reading some of the stuff. printing out UOG's writings.. he should! he should gather all his writings together and take it to a publisher. the amount of over analysis he does amazes me. wish i had the time he has. no such luck

don't u ppl sleep as well? weird. anyway, it's still not scientifically proven how much sleep we need, only recommended.

i feel that TPP cares to much about everyone else and forgotten that she needs to care about her ownself(i was there once), obviously a strong lady.

anyway.. i am trying to not judge other(hellooo, forgetfulness is such a problem).

I don't believe it's very fair for the older members to use psuedocodes when the write about other members. Not everyone has been here for that long, wouldn't it be easier if you included an extra sentence to link them instead of us having to research it(if we were interested enough).

What so important about the blog making fun of GY? I see it has taken a lot of interest. Tried it, can't be bother. Specially if it's going to be about dissing others. If it was that interesting, thy would be happy just staying there. Here is more interesting to me.

i know i write funny n i like to play game and make fun out of everything(brought up that way). i'm different. everyone is different. it is what makes us us. :) at the end of the day, i am human, i am a mother, and most importantly, i am my father's daughter.

i don't know if i am allowed to discuss this, but what happened was i felt like i was getting attacked by other members here and judged, when i chose not to share because it is complicated and i'm sure maybe a handful of you have seen something.

i asked GY why is it he allows certain members to personally attack me without taking action, but when i finally decide to respond a little i get punished for it? i did break the rules in my anger. but i would like to find out why is it, it is ok for others to get personal, and not ok for some to get personal.

i said everything is personal. because if it's not personal we wouldn't be here. because it wouldn't mean anything to us. and i know there is a difference with the word 'personal'. we like to talk about everyone and everything else. how i learn what i know i because i speak to people just about themselves, not anyone else. their life experience. that is how i learn.

dang.. that was draining.. can't wait to start on my books.. might not be in ozland, but hey, yippee to dat too. i will still visit here, because it's free!! and i can learn.

btw, how much are paying for ur internet a month UOG?(you should try to stop turning everything positive into negative, just a suggestion)

pied/piper...im thinking this topic
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11090&page=0

might result in..a new..'form'..of blog
we tend to forget..how much olo changed things last time

some of the suggestions have great merrit..[but would need a testing stage]..thus iwould hope we have two...for a while at least while the bugs are sorted...[ok i know we currently got more than one...AND thats allways confused me]

under the adverts are..the national forum/blogs..olo....forum..then the classic articles...general...i know i clicked on some of the other buttons at one stage...but nothing as good as the general section

[so one of my suggestions was consolidating them..;all onto one page...{or rather their new topics]

jinny..how much my internet?..i bought a package from 3..that cost near 100 for the stick..then 10 gig download..for near 130...so spent near 250 for the year..

[this year i should only need the 130..{if i dont change providers]..noting dodo..gives a year-package for 15 gig download..for the same price..[but would..need to by their stick]

im living off savings...[no other income]
so spending quater of a grand..just to get abused on line
well..im nearly over it..ps..im good at appoligising..
without sounding like im appologetic

i only seem to be fo-cusing on the negative...
[its when we can face-down..fear..we realise true happyness]
i reason the truth is the truth..and if its not true..then others need to correct my miss-conception's..

[your doing that great]..but i must reserve the right..to do the same
i love god..thus i love all his creation..take god away from me..then im free to hate some...[and i dont want to go there]

RObert you may not know this but I have always respected you.
I am from the opposite side of politics, trying desperately to be clear of the Greens, but understanding a faction within your party is not a concern.
Most now in control of your side frighten me more than anyone except the greens.
However.
Yes however I KNOW refuse to reconsider, bias is here and has been shown,if not by Graham in the dust storm I spoke of by just a few posters.
This is understandable but still the very reason we are here is to discuss issues and we all judge.
Cornflower, we have turned that rock over and again, it is silly.
We put our e mail up and get daily news some of us put our true name here and got trouble.
The net,see face book ext is a dangerous place we must not be too open.

Jinny,

Check your emails. If you've been "disciplined" Graham usually sends you an email. Write to him there. He'll tell you all about it.

'Loyalty to friends is easy when nothing rotten is in the air. But when rumours are flying, or innuendos, or betrayals - that is when the quality of true friendship becomes the stuff of heroic response.

Johnny Rotten - your friends are lucky to have your support. In the strongest of personalities, in the most blessed of lives, there are times when a person emotionally falls down. Who else can anyone depend on, to lend the resources of kindness and strength to help them get back up? A friend like you - who will not close his heart
and condemn - knowing that condemnation hurts the soul.'

Hahahaha!

betrayals? emotionally falls down? heroic responses? condemnation?

You got a post or two deleted. Man, build a bridge! Ginx was right.

If you're looking for true friendship on an opinion site I think you really have to get out more.

It really worries me now how much emotion people have invested in a public graffiti wall.

This is all too much man, other people in the world have actual drama in their lives and don't need to create it.

Amen to THAT.

I feel like I've stumbled drunk into a manic depressive help meeting.

StG: LOL!! It so is! We all come here addicted just like alcoholics go to AA meeting and preach it like a religion. They actually believe that alcohol is the cause of everything wrong in their lives and if they can only find peace there, and if they don't go, they will die? Plus they're such a bunch of depressing ppl who are lying to themselves. I know what they are tho. They are lost. I will write about that another time, my views on alcoholics...

I don't think it's depressing here btw! Its funny and interesting and eductional. Better then school where my mom had to throw the white board duster at me coz I was so bored and always slept at boring classes. The history books back home is so full of nonsense. They actually teach us that the legendary warriors had magical powers. Unbelievable!!

The link posted by one under god on Wednesday, 17 November 2010 at 5:41:31 AM is to the comments thread to GrahamY's article ''On Line Opinion' - the next iteration', published on 11 October 2010.

oug did well to draw users' attention to this discussion.

The link posted will always deliver a viewer to that article thread, even after it becomes archived (ie. when users can no longer post to the comments thread to that article), and the article itself can always be brought up in a separate browser tab by clicking the 'view article' button at the top or bottom of the comments page.

Newer OLO users may be unaware that that article no longer appears on the default display of the articles index page, it now being more than one month since its publication. This fact may be of importance to any user wishing to monitor the posting of any new posts to that thread. The article can be brought back into view on a user's index display by clicking on the '... having been started' button, selecting the option 'one quarter back', then clicking the 'Display' button right beside it.

Any recent posts to an article are probably most visible if a user selects the 'last post' order of display, obtainable by clicking the bold text 'last post' at the top of the right hand index column.

My point in raising this is to advise newer users of the fact that article discussions become automatically archived if no posts have been made to them for a period of around (I think) 21 days. So if a thread like the comments to Graham's article, which solicits ideas as to how the site can be best sustained, is to be kept 'alive', then users will have to continue to make suggestions.

Given users' willingness to post to this somewhat salacious thread, it might inform them as to the background against which the moderation workload of the site has to be handled for them to read the article, and, if able, make some constructive suggestion or comment.

Rusty Catheter:"the glorious people's republic of Pomerania"

seems to be something of a failed social experiment.

Deep Blue, I do believe you are doing just fine. I tried to throw together an example of being infuriatingly agreeable but was starting to sound like Foxy so have to rethink the tone I want to achieve. Probably learn a few more big words.

For Stg…
OLO grant me the access on site ;
to accept that some opinions are crap;
courage to make the effort to change them;
and wisdom to know when to give up.

Forrest I am lost when it comes to the technical side of running a site, I still don’t know what a sticky thread is or a hyper link. I’m not even sure if a blog is a website or some link to one or a standalone thing.

But if we are going to be made to behave perhaps a little more socially pleasant and react a little less personally I am willing to give it a go.

Rather than Graham cop the flack for every little deletion I’d probably suggest more moderators and an explanation of the post being deleted is a bonus but not necessarily who made the call to delete it given. I reckon Graham should do other stuff and assign a post executioner.

TPP bit concerned here, not with you I am a fan.
But I feel this thread has been worth while, now I see a bit of unhappyness with foxy, not sure what is said in other places.
Strongly think I do no wrong in airing my concerns about past events.
Know its up to me, no one else to find answers.
But I walk on glass, not sure I should say it.
But must, the recent deleations had to happen, ANY ONE WHO SAW KNOWS.
I am carefully avioding other thoughts I hold as a result.
My new [yet again] tactic of avioding what trouble I can is in play.
We got good use out of this thread good reasons to all make an effort to keep this site going.
But lets not take the freedom to be ourselves away or the right to differ.

Belly now you have me wondering. "now I see a bit of unhappyness with foxy"

Where do you see that? I have seen it in past thread's but I can't see it here, am I missing something.

R0bert

Ya, keep it going coz where else would we go to learn and irritate others? the joy in life(mine at least)

Earlier^today~i@was!thinking...UOG?must/be<analyzing>what\he*reads/and_would&be?working#on$his%views..funny.

hahaha

I can't even decide now where to comment coz the topics that are being discussed now are all really interesting, but i'm limited to post 20 a day and 8 per thread(if i'm not mistaken). I need to practice what UOG does.. he's so good at it, genius!

TPP: just highlight the words you don't understand, right click and google it. or copypasteandsearch on google. Google is already recognize in the dictionary btw. Just google it! I can explain to you, but then i can't write more :(.

These are the rules we have to obey here. Not happy, go build up ur blog, the bloggers that hv been blogging for 3 yrs or more about rubbish actually get paid to write about rubbish, and a lot of you here have more interesting, important things to write, but you need to know how to market your blog so you get enough readers.some of then get a 5 figure income. What about da creater on fb? rules are less tighter there compared to here, he's a millionare. and all the fb users contribute to dat. Is it worth it? MO: YES! coz a million cannot but the joy, etc you can get from fb :).

No one is perfect, but we still hv the ability to change for the better.

If you like to degrade others, there are other forums out there where it is welcome and accepted(if that is your joy). Not happy here, easy. LEAVE. I am happy here for now. I like it very much, and I appreciate everyone here even the ones who burn their mouse wheels :)

i wish i had more time to read all the links you ppl put up. i wish i knew more of the history of this forum, coz then i can understand better. btw: GY still hasn't answer. I was banned completely coz of my wrong doings. but he allowed me to comment again? why?

jinny get over grayham..needing to respond to you
clearly..[as your posting]..your not banned

when your banned..you get an email..
AND your UNABLE*..to post

the only function that works..
when you are banned..is acces to your details/notifications

[thats it]...

were you banned...*you couldnt acces the post page
[let alone post ...*anything]

as you clearly CAN*..post..
your clearly NOT*..banned

so let that issue rest..
and get back to posting...on topic

anyhow ...im over this topic

Jinny are you telling me to justf&%$nggoogleit? I heard it was in the news that someone got fired for that recently, which kinda relates back to this topic as far as being in or out of order (have to say it with a pommie accent).

Joy from fb? Dunno, but must be a moderators nightmare.

Banning is like a warning, you might have got a warning and now it’s over? You were suspended but could end up being expelled type deal if the behavior continues, something along those lines at any rate.

Foxy is unhappy Belly? Or there is unhappiness directed at her?

Catch ya on the threads OUG and many thanks for the input.

Um UOG, thanks for your analysis. It doesn't answer the question. If i know, I understand. If you had enough understanding of this thread, as someone suggested, let the wheel burn.

I can let it go, just don't think it's right, that's all. but i know i can't change it. Bugs me tho.

I got an email, which fired me up even more. Which i think, would do the same to all yous. And most of the long time members here have to change their usernames because of that? I believe as humans, we have a right to express our opinions. That is the least we are entitled with thanks to the evolution process we have been subjected to.

I don't understand, why I keep getting into trouble because I question right from wrong. and I can live with it, no worries, but if someone here can explain this to me, i will say my prayers to you.

I respect GY's decision to take his necessary actions but question why I have to pay the price and not others that edged me into my actions then. I suppose at the end of the day, i should stop questioning(not possible), and accept that they had their reasons to. which was a great reason btw...

i suppose as UOG stated. we should read more thoroughly into rules and regulations, and while we're going through them, make a decision if we are willing to practise those.

Either you change for yourself, or move on. No one has the right to make others feel like c**p, right? :)

I mean, how can you actually live with yourself when you call another human the devil? that will keep me awake tonight.. pondering..

if we take more time being more careful and put an effort in what we do, there will be less mistakes created.

I think that the moderators do a good job ...

I believed that moderating was rather like referreeing - unbiased application of the rules of engagement.

Obviously there are times when this does not seem apparent. I do think, then, that the moderator could privately explain why.

It is not productive to just state that this is the moderator's decision (fair enough) without some explanation.

Being OLO should also be a process of learning ... and this is where the moderator needs
to be more forthcoming.

TPP.

Larger words you say......I think that can be done:)

Woops! I think Iam off-topic.

Oh well. No one's perfect.

BLUE

Surely, Foxy hasn't been banned. Really ...?

I always considered Foxy a 'peace-maker' ... and always gentle in her responses.

Did I miss something?

I read the rules Jinny, they are a short list without good definitions.

And anyway a community evolves over time some very specific rules understood within the community but maybe not immediately to new people or those who have missed part of the evolution process aka me and you. Which why I wanted the rules explained within OLO by OLO peeps.

Yep I know, I should have been banned as well and avoided it somehow. Not a moderation decision you’d catch me questioning.

You got called evil? See that’s a funny one again about abuse being in the eye of the beholder, wouldn’t bother me at all. Which probably means I wouldn’t hesitate to call some else evil without knowing it would keep them up nights.

Which is all the evidence you need for the need of forum moderation.

But there is a common theme emerging of people wanting to know why something happened.

Didn’t there used to be General, News and Current Affairs sections then a technical one and another one?

I think Foxy got banned or left of her own accord Danielle. Still not clear on that one.

DB, I thought perhaps you could teach me some. :)

Jinny,

You might recall that during one highly emotional post you delivered a mini tirade to Graham and questioned his moderating decision.
If any of us more experienced on this forum had done that, we would have expected instant suspension at the very least.
But you're still here with us and the whole thing will eventually blow over...so, on to the next subject.

BLUE: i respect ur wishes before on not getting refereed to. I believe i have a right to state that you were wrong in you judgement, like a lot of them. too bad, so sad. dont like it, go form ur own website. The stuff u said eventually is BS, brain washed. cannot accept how it is, why it is. IMHO

Poirot: easy for you to say. my brain does not function da same way yours does. Everyone is different.

Maybe it is because I always like to challenge rules. it just bothers me, thats all. I would just like to know, after I got banned and my link removed, why i was allowed back. Is that too much to ask? Why who a stranger give you all these rules and not practise it themselves. Id I am banned, i should remain banned(don't you think?)

After all, i was the one who broke the rules.

Why am i still here? Explain? Anyone here? Since GY prefers not to.
For those of you who don't need to sleep.. come one.. i need explanation here? most of you are highly intelligent.. waiting..

Jinny,

It seems to me that Graham owned responsibility for allowing your personal thread to go ahead, although he regretted that decision later...also you are new to OLO and it seems you were given a bit of latitude - which seems reasonable under the circumstances.

TPP has a few unanswered questions.



"Didn’t there used to be General, News
and Current Affairs sections then a
technical one and another one?"

There are presently four categories in which topics in the General Discussion area of the Forum may appear. They are 'News and Current Affairs', 'General Discussion', 'Elections', and 'Technical Support'. Only two of the categories presently show on the default display: this is because it is over one month since any topic has been submitted and approved in either the 'Elections' or 'Technical Support' categories.

Post a topic and get it approved in the 'Elections' category without there being a real electoral event and Belly and I will kill you. Slowly and painfully. Many others will look on approvingly while we do it.

'Technical Support' is for anything to do with how the OLO site actually works. It is a good place to submit topics of a general nature as to Forum features or to seek other users' input as to how they see the site operating in the computer users experience sense, rather than with respect to Forum rules or policy as we are doing here.



"Who is MTR?"

Houellebecq has already answered that after a fashion in saying "MTR is a strange woman who posts sometimes about men being gratified. It really annoys her when men are gratified without permission". Initially I thought him to be wrong, thinking it to be the acronym for 'Mechanical Target Range', but then I remembered Melinda Tankard Reist. Melinda is a fairly regular article contributor to OLO. From what I hear around the traps she has copped a fair amount of ad fem flak from some OLO users over time. 'Mechanical Target Range' may have been right.

Hers may be a specific case of the sort of abuse that particularly concerns GrahamY, being abuse directed at an OLO article contributor.



"Can personal agendas be of interest to everyone
and worth discussing even after being labeled as one?"

Speaking purely for myself, I would have to say I don't know, but I will try to find out.

Forrest:”Post a topic and get it approved in the 'Elections' category without there being a real electoral event and Belly and I will kill you. Slowly and painfully. Many others will look on approvingly while we do it.”

Noted, I promise. Gawd.

Okay gotchya I couldn’t see them but the sections are still there, had it in my head that one was about moderator decisions but maybe a convo had turned up once in the technical thread .

Personal agendas I really don’t understand. If I bought up a thread on foster care it would be a personal agenda? Is it like the men who flood threads with anti-feminist stuff – sorta on topic technically but really just using it as a platform?

Thanks for the heads up on MTR, I think I will avoid them.

Jinny you were naughty and punished for it and now you feel punished but to avoid feeling just naughty (because that is boring and childlike) you want either someone else to back right down or crank it right up so you can feel like a rebel (much more interesting).

I was just as disappointed as you seem to be about deletions but that was because the topic had turned to a fav subject of mine. Took me two deleted posts and a sneaky one getting through to work out not to mention the content in another thread. I was bit slow but I got there in the end.

Questions answered first.
Foxy, no she was not banned, on coming to a thread always good to read every post, informative if nothing else.
I found remarks here and in other threads showing some are not happy.
I gave as near as you can get the reason she left.
Second not a question, maybe not wise, but jenny move on, in your short time here you give lectures to some and refuse good advice your self.
On form you will be unhappy with my comments.
Do you understand I could be very abrupt here but while not looking to continue talking to you am at least trying to give good advice.

Jinny, I'm not sure why you are asking some of these questions. You know you were only suspended for 24 hours. I even termed it "time out", so you should have realised you would be able to post again.

Hardly anyone gets banned from the site. You would need to really be a vexatious poster for that to happen. But penalties do increase for repeat offences. So, generally a day the first time, a couple of days to a week the second time, a month, a couple of months, and so on.

Normally doesn't get to a couple of months because posters generally value participating here more highly than flaming, or whatever the problem was with their post. So people pull their heads in.

The issue with "personal agendas" is that the thread that you started was entirely about your personal situation. It wasn't about an issue in general using your situation as an example, which might have been acceptable.

Because it was about you and because it was about an area that raises emotions there was a good chance you were going to come in for personal criticism and that you would not accept it well. Which is exactly what happened.

We're not set-up to run a personal counselling service, and it's not appropriate. So I won't be approving any more threads like that.

Thanks for your reply. This whole thread apart from discussing the rules here also still proves how humans like to assuming and judge what they don't know.

GY: I said I will respect now that I have learnt. But you said more then just suspension and other thing which I have no right no share as it involves you. Thus my questions. Easy enough? They are your rules, how come others are getting away with breaking them?

TPP: "naughty(because that is boring and childlike)". Naughty is so much fun you just don't realize, and we all have our youth in us, unless it was that painful some choose to block it out because they cannot accept the past. What is wrong with copypaste and search btw? i can't believe someone got fired. Better start working for him/herself, no need to be bossed around.

This place is so nice. Like one big happy family. It has the godfathers, the granparents, the fathers and mothers, the rebellious teenagers, the children, and the visitors and come and go. hahaha

You talk about friendship. Friendship does not have to be physical. Here, copypaste easier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship

"Can personal agendas be of interest to everyone
and worth discussing even after being labeled as one?" Who is going to answer this one?

Have a great day! Thanks for all the advice. Was good, very good.

Oh dear...Jinny. This is planet earth, and I suspect your not quite with-it today. Clearly you have immutable problems since your circumstances are still not in the realms of, and quite frankly, if you dig a hole for yourself most try and find a way out (ASAP). Why don't you stay with your web-site ( which I've read intently ) and save your self any more embarrassment. ( having fun yet:)

Humor and satire, are quite a common act brought on by the need to express one's self:) and I do so knowingly. BS! you say? Like I said at the top.....Welcome to the world.

BLUE: i respect your wishes before on not getting refereed to. I believe i have a right to state that you were wrong in you judgement, like a lot of them. too bad, so sad. don't like it, go form your own website. The stuff u said eventually is BS, brain washed. cannot accept how it is, why it is. IMHO

Personalty.......I think you have far more important matters at hand, so I wish you all the best.

Enjoy what-ever it is that you do with your life. Right now...Iam off for a game of golf, so while my affairs are in order, Iam going to enjoy mine:)

"i have a right to state that your were wrong in you judgement, like a lot of them".

Yes......no-one is perfect........yes!.........and?

BLUE

Lol!! Hahaha

Why should I stay on just one website? Ur not my boss. If GY kicks me out then I'll stop annoying you:p

Go enjoy ur golf and stop complaining. I am enjoyin lots from this forum and working, n still having a blast.

You aso dun follow da rules here wat! Hrmph, nonsense

Btw, if I'm not on earth, where am I? My life, my choices.

GY:”The issue with "personal agendas" is that the thread that you started was entirely about your personal situation. It wasn't about an issue in general using your situation as an example, which might have been acceptable.”

Snap. Now I get it. Start with the issue then personal situation only as an example. Start with issue then personal situation only as an example. Start with…

Jinny:”Naughty is so much fun you just don't realize…”

Aw Jinny, I don’t realize? Really? (deep breath) In this context “naughty” is boring and childlike. Stamping your feet for answers isn’t quite the same as asking a question.

In my playroom often I tell a child to leave something alone or put something back etc and get the “but why” whinge and often I make a mistake of getting dragged in by explaining why instead of my usual “because I said so”.

Silly me find myself making the same mistake on line.

Here and like the children being told the why of something is a bonus because no one is obliged to explain anything.

Well said Belly. I’m happy with Foxy... but I read back and actually sound quite snide. Apologies Foxy.

Enjoy your golf DB!

Well thanks TPP and Blue,thanks GY lets not let it go on.
Just know some things are best unsaid.
Move on it is far better that we do, injury's can be self inflicted ones ,we all want to justify our opinions but some times silence is the best answer.
It has been a good thread TPP.

Belly:

We have all made mistakes. We have all done things that we wish we had not done. We have all missed opportunities and blown more of them than we care to admit. But the universe begins a new cycle whenever we are ready.

Lexi I am aware of that.
I very much doubt you know just what is behind my post.
I believe nothing can be gained from reopening old wounds.
But some things just have to be said.
Having done that, for the last time,I leave the subject.

Belly:

I was referring to myself not you in this instance. My apologies if I've caused offense.

I think we need a new discussion thread entitled "Jinny."

what? how about one discussing all of you instead? ok.. here's a good one which i think would be beneficial: substance abuse, what are the little things we can do to change our world as an individual, laughter the best medicine, home remedies, medical professions(like my psychiatrsit), don't really care, all they want to do is make money.
Start something else please. i am not coz i've learnt my lesson.

btw, thanks all.. i'm finished with this discussion.. learnt enough already.

Back to what i originally posted. Will respect the rules. Hope you all do ask well. Cheers

hold on, let's start one discussing all the senior members in this forum, coz they are soooooo interesting. and we can learn so much from them.

Alrighty to wrap it up you wish to decide on another topic?

Define senior and what question/s would you ask?

What about substance abuse, home remedies, shrinks and laughter?

Danielle it's been done, it got deleted. :)

Should we finish with a group hug?

YAY!

LOL!! Good idea! I'll toast to that!

Hmmmmm... yeah, something important that will help society, not all the political thread where they just argue with each other.

Children is a good topic, because they are our future, home remedies and self medication i have enough knowledge on.. oh, even better, techonology!

Back to the thread. You all have helped so much with educating me. Thanks for that and sorry for the ones that i seem to enjoy irritating? It's to much fun for me not to. Can't help it.

Lexi I took and take no offense.
Things took place that most did not see, we are better for that.
Advice is only of use if those it is given to want to hear it.

Thank you Belly. Yours, Lexi's, TPP, and everyone. Lesson learned and understood well, now what's out here apart from the rest of the arguements that's interesting, beneficial, new and fun :)

I feel like getting on someone's nerve today...

lol. As the witches of east-wick flex their powerful incantations of witchcraft:)

Jinny.

"I feel like getting on someone's nerve today...you must be your own worst enemy:)

Is that the best you lot a have?

Anyhow girls, keep stirring your cauldron, your boredom connections with a-holeism, just suits the witless potions:)

Sorry I cant be more fun. The game of cat and mouse....YAWN! lol

Have a nice day.

BLUE

You clever little sausage Blue.

An extremely mild flame, baiting, and off topic with the option to whinge “she did it first” back.

Thank you for the example.

TPP.

Didn't I mention that this was one of my favorite movies. Oh and the game of golf went very badly. Two water shots and only three birdies.
:( well you cant win them all can you.

Flaming you say.......well look who,s calling the kettle black. Humor and satire I'd call it. You know where the little red button is.

BLUE

Extremely mild flame I said. :P

I wouldn’t call the kettle black; I’d call it a shoddy, low life, sooty little embarrassment to kettles everywhere, thus avoiding the argument that I called it black. I don’t throw stones in a glass house either; I’d take a bulldozer through it. I read this thing about “The big lie” and liked it.

I’ve admitted my love of a good flame, giving and receiving but have agreed to comply with more rigid enforcement of site rules.

The reference to the red button is along the same lines as Houel’s scroll wheel?

I agree with him and you, and bow to the mild irritation that occurs when someone tells you to move on when you’ve chosen not to.

Really debate would die here if everyone did move past everything they disagreed with.

Yawn!

BLUE

BLU/BLUE: I am my own worse enemy I suppose, but at least I don't go around forums with some kinda writing degrading other beings.. oh hold on, in your writings would be only 'the hearts of mortal man' why not hearts of mortal beings? Who's yours? with your knowledge, I would be rather interested to find out.

Yes, Wizard of Oz sure made it's mark in the 20th century. Click her red shoes and have an out of body experience.

Your game of golf was good :) stop whinging. At least you didn't get soaked.

You must miss my non presence in the rest of the forum picking on your brain, is that why you're back here?

LOL, just for a tease, no pun intended.

Anyone with a good public link to a superb laws, rules, and regulation website? Thx

Hi Jinny, first I was not supporting you.
Second yes without doubt you are your own worst enemy.
And third let it be known every day without doubt you get on some ones nerves.
Now TPP mate you do not know the full story, I can not mention missing posts, but I do not lightly give any one a hard time.

LOL, just for a tease, no pun intended.

Now as TPP has told everyone, flaming is rather a pessimistic stand point and quite rightly so. I quite frankly, have not seen such a paranoid and inhospitable behavior in all my life. The level of discrimination towards me is of the lowest, and it just goes to show the true depths people will go to and force them off this site.

"Your game of golf was good :) stop whinging. At least you didn't get soaked."

See its not hard in making remarks of a pleasant nature, is it Jinny.

What gets me is, is that these are the people that have professional upper level advancements of the highest order........What a joke! ( your code is childish ) I know Iam not the smartest fish in the sea, and most of the time, is just plain laziness. I don't have to beat my chest, about how well proportionate my mind is, and it is:)

I come here to do a bit of commentary work as well as to keep the brain sharp. Some come here to walk around just to mark their syber space territory like a dog. YAWN! Not interested.

Some people just don't get it! Yes they do. But I do enjoy watching the adult sand-pit:)

It really does tell whats in-side:) Doesn't it TPP.

Any more olo bulling?

Now Iam going stay here for ever:) and you can thank TPP for that.

And if don't like...tough.

SUE.....ME.

BLUE

Wha?

I mean What? Which bit was to me?

You're all good with me Blue and I hope you didn't see me as saying anything of a bullying nature.

I'm busy trying to work out what indriect profit is for tax purposes. I reckon paying your employees well above what their peers get is in fact indirect profitting but I'm too shakey on it to propose a new thread.

This thread has been an embarrassment from beginning to end, now we have the Blue pond, or whatever s/he calls him/herself sporting for a fight with what? the forum rules, The Pied Piper..
What gives? I thought the Piper was indulging a bit of mild persiflage, which was perfectly in keeping with the tenor of this thread.
Blue, why don't you and jinny swap email addresses and slug it out in private; you seem made for each other, and I don't have the stomach for much more of this..
But I look forward to stimulating debate elsewhere :-)

Voyeurism can be fun, but other times just crass!

Foxy,
I can't imagine you acting with anything but dignity, so I hope you're putting all this behind you.

the ugliness of society where they can not even be happy for others joy, instead they rather kick a wounded dog and feel joy in that. good on you *pat on the back*

how do you live with yourselves...

I’m wondering why this thread was seen as such a big deal.

It clearly means the critics did not believe what I have said was my intent in starting it.

I like OLO, and I had missed it. Something was different and I wanted to know what. Graham wasn’t keen on letting the thread go ahead but I got the feeling he thought it might clarify a few things, probably for mine and Jinny’s benefits mostly.

For me I think I got it although took me ages to understand the personal agenda stuff.

Other than that I didn’t really see anything particularly stirry happen here. But having spent the last few months in a war game where flaming was called “smack talk” and the abuse could reach such depths that I was surprised my screen didn’t crack I guess it is all a matter of perspective.

Jinny my only advice would be don’t take this stuff to heart. Or go play evony, will harden you up.

Piper:

For what it's worth I think your thread has done a great deal of good.
It certainly has cleared up a lot of things for me. As I originally stated the art of reasoned, intelligent argument is a skill not easily acquired. I'm still learning. We each have our own styles, however one thing that has come out of all this is that whilst we don't all have to post in the same manner - it's best not to appear insulting or abusive. Few people like or support an abusive, or illogical debater. After reading many of the comments here, I would
think that most of us would agree on that point. Anyway Piper - you've asked some important questions - hopefully others have also learned from the answers you've received. If only there were more like you ;-)

I think u brought up a great post TPP. I learned a lot from it. I suppose it's just hard for me coming from a different culture that is not full of spite, understanding, acceptance, respect, and appreciating what they have.

Too bad they tk joy in putting others down in order to make them feel more superior..

I do take it to heart.. But I will survive.

Just sad to see how humans have forgotten it's not about them but every other living being n our planet.

Too bad that even wt this thread they have not learned to respect the rules

TPP your thread has been great.
I feel like I tread on glass.
Early one morning I found two posts, in different threads.
I felt duty bound to report them.
And did.
You would have too, anyone would have.
Judge me on what you know of me not what you do not know about the issue.
Jinny from your first post I tried to give you good advice, that, you charge every thing from Australians to those who question you with an easiness you appear not to use on your self.
A quick reread of your post history will confirm my opinion.
Only you can change and it could be to your benefit if you do.
TPP my remarks in your other thread are based on the concerns I have aired here.

Belly: when I thanked u, it is for the lessons u hv thought me, not for ur support, n I have grown a lot since my first post, and I hv admitted to every wrongs I hv committed.

Thanks to the advice here, I can let it go. So that is what I thanked for, not ur support coz I already know I hv only myself to do that. I am hear to learn, not fight, not to get judged, not to get abused. Period.

Aw Belly don’t worry about it. If you did what you felt was right it is a done deal and good on ya. And others obviously felt it correct as well.

Until I saw on cyberia that one of them complained about something I thought I had left the message that caused Jinny’s thread to be deleted. I suspect I was part of it but not the whole story.

Like I said, I came recently from a rougher places. While Anti was having a go at me someone on another site was calling me a supporter of child killing so his remarks barely registered.

But because OLO keeps messages forever I feel I have to respond in case it appears I accept the comment to be true.

Probably a lot of us here feel the same way. We want the right to defend ourselves and get a bit shirty when it is taken away. Also DoCS reads this stuff and talk to me about it so I want a few things cleared up as I go.

Jinny don’t go all sookylala.

Thanks Lexi. Irked me some that this thread was thought of as me just stirring, I did just want a catch up although nothing much stops me pulling the odd chain as I go. Seems to be a theme here at the moment... must be some hidden agenda to find. [add twighlight zone music]

I am still missing something, is Severin and CJ gone now?

"Also DoCS reads this stuff and talk to me about it so I want a few things cleared up as I go."

Goodness, DoCS consult with you about OLO? Do they accompany you to Cyberia too?

Heh, heh, some say that wearing an upturned aluminium pie dish on the head can fix that problem.

Corny, they have come to my house with my printed out posts in their hands.

You'd be shocked at what they have done to children in my care.

Maybe you would be slightly confused at what they have said and done to me but I am completely horrified by it.

How they have dealt with other sites to shut them down is pretty amazing but especially when they work in tandem with the NGO lawyers.

DOCs is in fact intrusive and no doubt is reading what some of us say.
Now TPP,fairdinkum, do not be too hard on your self.
I and a lot of other posters ruffle feathers often.
I see very little difference in you than most.
You tend to live in the world you inhabit,as I do.
Now that Anti quote, he lacks balance,has been hurt,quite a lot of men, good men have been.
But its not worth considering unbalanced quotes like that.
Seems you know more about C J Morgans sites than me, never looked, will not if it has become a sand box for bitterness.
Yes seems to be the answer those two are gone, I have no idea who inhabits that site and would like foxy to return.
Is every deleatedpost there?
Start a thread on DOC,s it would fly, my village has two industry's,the timber employs 12 fostering employs twice that in a village of 100 or less.

jinny, the definitive online reference on Australian laws is the Australian Legal Information Institute, available at http://www.austlii.edu.au/.

Good luck.

Belly, I regret making the remark in the way I did, but I stand by the sentiment expressed. Some people are making a very tidy income out of serial fostering. I have no problem with that except for the hypocrisy of pretending that it's all out of some saintly altruism.

Could it be that one of the reasons DOCS gives people like TPP a hard time is that they realise it's easy to milk the system and the money is already tight?

". Some people are making a very tidy income out of serial fostering."

Posted by Antiseptic, Saturday, 20 November 2010 6:15:58 AM

That's why you see so many foster parents driving late model Bentleys and that ever present copy of the Financial Times tucked under their arms.

Everyone knows how cheap and easy it is to raise kiddies - especially ones from broken, disfunctional families.

Or was Anti being very nasty to Pied Piper? Antiseptic being nasty? Nah! Just take a look at his posting history - he is the embodiment of compassion and tolerance.

Oh look outside, I just saw a flying piggie.

He did it again. Now I am milking the system. DoCS are mean to me because I am taking huge sums of money off them?

I don’t have a car Johnny but I do have a very cute flying pig mobile hanging in the playroom. Anti spent a bit of time last year doing this as well.

Anti I went to the Ombudsman and made a formal complaint about DoCS creating a plan that caused an incredible amount of harm for a sibling group in my care.

Two managers came to my home a few months later saying I had been seen online and a complaint about a post was made anon to DoCS in Queensland. Since then there have been several meetings that included me being talked to about my posts online including OLO ones. Hosts of websites have been written to about me and others to request information about us. I have been warned that first slip up and the crown solicitor will be contacted.

Parents online claim after posts they have had access to their children who are in foster care restricted. Another person had their computer taken by the police as evidence concerning her online posts about DoCS.

But the NGO’s joined the party and their lawyers are busy writing to site owners and server owners saying that the information appearing about them online is ruining their reputation in the community. I have copies.

Belly I get something must have happened, his focus is on money and so I can only assume child support is ripping him off and yes I do believe they ask too much from non-custodial parents here. Anyone else receiving anything from govt instead of giving to them it is the enemy.

I’m working on a thread about NGO’s though, but can’t decide between two different approaches.

Oh, so now this thread is about the Child Protection Industry?

OK then, I have been a foster parent in the past. It was thrust upon me by my daughter who had a soft heart which is difficult to refuse. Child protection had no foster parents and saw I was decent. They pleaded their case. It was a pitiful case about the teenager. I accepted but pointed out the need for mental health services to become involved. I'd already had the girl for a couple of nights before negotiations and she was not well. At every weekly visit, I reinforced the need for this girl to get mental health attention. Two months latter she finally had a tragic major episode in public on the way to school with my children. She spent months in psychiatric care. In the end, Child Protection, had her repatriated with her brother in New Zealand. That also happened to be the other case I pressed with Child Protection. She shouldn't have been in Australia. She should have been returned to New Zealand as soon as her New Zealand foster parent abandoned her here.

I am most underwhelmed by the Child Protection Industry. Understaffed, under-trained and underfunded would be understatements writ large.

Fractelle/Severin/Johnny Rotten:"Everyone knows how cheap and easy it is to raise kiddies"

Except that TPP doesn't "raise kiddies", she acts as a short-term foster carer. She gets well-funded to do so and has said in the past that she chose to do so because it lets her stay at home and get paid for it. Since she is set up to do it, the actual costs of providing essentials aren't high compared to what they might be for a familt trying to get started with their own kids.

TPP:"Now I am milking the system."

No, I said that the system is no doubt able to be milked, so perhaps DOCS are simply being vigilant. They're always talking about not having enough money.

As I've always said, I think you do valuable work, but I don't like the pretence that it's solely out of the goodness of your heart.

It's a job.

Anti I've known a few foster carers and my impression of them all is that the pay aspect was what enabled them to do something they valued. Frankly I'd not be looking for way's of doing my current job if I did not get paid for it but the foster carers I've known were people who put their lives into children.

For some it may be a job and for most the motivators will be a mix of things but I think your statements are way to broad to be in anyway fair.

R0bert

[Deleted. Flaming, revealing identity of children subject to DOCS orders and defamation.]

RObert:

I've also known quite a few carers and I agree with your summation.
Looking after children is no easy task.None of the carers I knew were in it simply for the money. In any case I think it's important in a discussion to try to be clear as to what you're saying otherwise your words can so easily be misunderstood and cause offense. Still, the ability to see things from the other person's point of view is a skill that not every one possesses. Making judgements about others I guess is how we defend ourselves and it's something we all do at some time.

I would not dignify DEEP-BLUE's post with a response, anyone. It represents a total mis-use of the Forum. I would be surprised if it stays up for long.

My apologies TPP for making reference to the unasked for consequences of exactly this sort of vindictiveness in my 'welcome back' post early on in the thread.

It provides a classic illustration of the need for the use of pseudonyms on the part of some posters on OLO.

BLU:

Do you realise how rude you're being? Or are you simply trying to provoke Piper? I don't know anything about you but you must remember that you're actually talking to a person not just a computer screen.
I realise that it makes it easy to be able to talk like this when you're anonymous. Ask yourself this though, would you say this to Piper's face? Words do hurt. I learned that the hard way.

LEXI. Iam simply asking a question to TPP. Let her speak for her self. I have no problem with TPP and she knows it, so save me your grave concerns on this thread.

Iam hunting for the person named and so are the police.

If its not her, dismiss the post!

Its simple, isn't.

BLUE

Regarding BLU's earlier post - it's fitting that on the "moderation thread" we are all presented with an appropriate example of when to click on the red cross.

Leave TPP alone! all yous virtual bullies

why dont you talk about the wrong you have done instead of judging others

Start a new thread. How did all of this end up here?

TPP: don't let what they say bother you. They don't know anything and you don't have to explain yourself to anyone.

I blu having told GY of your post, it is my view it is very weak.
Such a post about another was deleted and yours surely is questionable.
RObert and others, most carers are great and good people, even you anti know that, and thanks for the withdrawal.
I see improvement and am wiling to start again.
Let us not however forget some carers are not owners of halos.
DOCs is incompetent and has put children in the wrong hands often.
I can point to heavy drug users and just financial based carers.
Far worse however is the parents who let children go for any reason, we have a flood of them growing every day.

Ignoring the nonsense above and moving on with the topic, I think it is fair to say of foster parents that there are many kinds including those who are abusive (such as the New Zealand foster parent who abandoned her charge in Australia), those who are good willed but thrown into it (such as I was with the New Zealand teenager), and those who are good willed and choose to contribute to community through foster parenting.

As to child protection workers, equally I think there are many kinds including those who are just working whilst waiting for a job in their speciality, those who are the dead wood and those who are dedicated to their work.

Foster carers are very light on the ground. Child protection need more than is on offer. Too many of us however do not want the responsibility of a more often than not troubled child or teenager. Mental Health services are also light on the ground, so getting timely mental health interventions are nigh on impossible for most and if you are a teenager there are even less services on offer. It is not unusual for teenagers to be in adult mental health hospitals awaiting a placement to the few adolescent facilities and being assigned a 24 hour a day nurse/protector. Privacy is not an option!

It's all very very complex, but there seems to be a lack of holistic vision in the Child Protection Industry. Certainly, funding, training and staffing need immediate attention. They need to encourage more people into foster parenting or look for other solutions. They need to consider the mental health needs and issues of the foster children and address them as a first priority when ever and where ever they occur.

Belly

"Such a post about another was deleted and yours surely is questionable."

Its a legitimate story that to my knowledge has nothing to do with the pied piper and I have simply followed Antiseptic's post and I fail to see what this has to do with her ability as a carer.

Why are you all jumping to conclusions when it's just a simple question.

The reaction should be, no reaction at all.

BLUE

In her opening post, TPP asked:

"What is defamation, or how is it applied on a site like this?"

The post by Deep-Blue on Saturday, 20 November 2010 at 12:41:31 PM may very well constitute an example. Now would be a very good time for new users of the Forum to have a look at the 'Legals' page. It can be found by clicking on the very small text button 'Legals' at the very bottom of any page, but in any case here is the link: http://bit.ly/dkLDEM

Without responding in any way to the post mentioned, I simply note that what purport to be the names of real persons are mentioned in the context of certain allegations. Should it be that in fact those names are those of real persons, any allegations of the like alluded to could well be found to be defamatory. OLO will have no part of facilitating defamation, and I don't think that is any secret. I only comment because I note, unsurprisingly, it being a Saturday afternoon, no indication of GrahamY's presence online at present: in the mean time, the less engagement with the content of that post, the better for OLO.

The comment has been made: "Start a new thread. How did all of this end up here?". More importantly, TPP in the topic title includes the words 'off topic'. What is threatening to happen at this point in this thread is what is known as 'thread hijacking'. It is for no one to instruct that a new thread be opened: someone may choose to do so, but that is subject to its being approved. The only proper conduct is to either refrain from continued posting in the thread, or to return the discussion to the topic (as I am attempting to do here).

If find that quoting something from an article, or an opening post, is always a good way of helping yourself stay reasonably on topic. Staying on topic is a way of paying respect to authors and what users have in this Forum.

Gotta love the internet. On one site I have the parents abusing me for being a supporter of child killing, on another the foster parents are ripping into me for not supporting foster parents no matter what they do.

Here I’m not sure what is happening but I am attempting not to be paranoid.

Nup wasn’t me Blue, twice I have asked for children to be found new homes – both autistic and although they are worth more money I am not the right place for them. I have never even requested respite care (where they still pay you for the child even if they aren’t with you) and never ever dumped a child.

I kinda take it quite seriously, they can be with me for over two years and they are with me, not long day care or anywhere else that foster parents can put them and still get paid for. Some carers are scum bags, I’m not but I have no way of proving it here or on any other site.

I could earn lots fostering but it would mean going to an NGO and I believe the existence of NGO’s in foster care harms children. And they probably all hate me now anyway. DoCS don’t like me either. It just is not easy being me these days.

George of course is right – good and bad people found everywhere. That is why I now desperately try to focus on the systems and how they work for the children rather than the people in them, although I’m inclined to have the odd spew back at some individuals.

I can’t be provoked Lexi, well not right now, I’m all provoked out right now.

Oops - should have read your post Forrest before I responded, I hijacked my own thread and went right off topic.

Umm...[giggle] Will work on new thread, I'm halfway through proposing first post but it just isn't geling yet.

Hi all,

Comment gone and Deep-Blue suspended. Yes, it's a Saturday and I wasn't near a computer this morning. Down in Forster visiting my 6 year old. We had a play in the playground, great surf, bought our provisions for the weekend and had lunch. Then I return to this. :(

Thanks to the four people who were pretty promptly on to it and sent me emails. I had been using my new iPhone to check, so even with the surf there was only a small window in which it could have stayed up.

If you are interested in an insight into how I determine suspensions, normally a first suspension would attract 24 hours (the system won't do less than that). A second infringement within a short time normally gets you 3 to 7 days, and a third will get you a month. After 6 months you're probably back to a day for something that looks heat of the moment.

However, this post looked pretty pre-meditated and was so serious that Deep-Blue copped a week, and it wouldn't take much for me to escalate that rapidly. I don't remember the last time 4 people tipped me off to a problem post, so I assume that most of you wouldn't see this as harsh.

It also has to be practical. You can't afford to have people on the forum who could create a legal liability by dropping in a comment that breaches the law at an opportunistic moment. We could all end-up losing the forum. The suspensions are designed to discourage people trying these sorts of things on.

Thanks Graham we are now back on thread and that post was of benefit to me.
So staying on subject can we have in the coming forum a sin bin? a list of who is out for a time.
Maybe not, it may infringe on privacy.
Good to see 3 more let the thread be seen by you and I want to remind those who do not know clicking on the red cross-under a post will let you do that.
Now it is gone as it should be,some will question why, trust those in charge, it was the only action possible.
FG you would make a good moderator.

Forrest would Belly, I think he is very even handed.

I’d like to know who is banned…I don’t want to have the last say because others are unable to respond.

I have to say I don’t necessarily trust those in charge, but I bow to any changes they make and any moderation applied on the site they own and or run.

I’ve put in an application for a new thread. I am terribly brave. But Graham in the past has been brilliant at making me rethink how I have worded things and without being patronizing has made non-specific suggestions about how I might rethink what message I am attempting to put forward.

I appreciate the effort when it is not something he is obligated to do.

I such a suck up. I get the feeling I just backhanded him then gave him a hug.

What a good laugh.. Some people just find it so hard to learn.

Any chance of getting more moderators here so this site could improve? Obviously everyone has their own lives to lead and while they're trying to enjoy the weekend, nonsense happens. I vote FG and Belly for, the more the merrier!

Besides, it's not fair on GY to hv to do it all on his own.. And blackberry is better then iphone here in terms of plans and services. I've used both.

Jinny (should I use the big J at the beginning of a sentence?), I really have a nasty but persistent little feeling, gut instinct… maybe woman’s intuition, that if there were more moderators your posts would be but a distant memory to many.

Graham it might be worth considering for the next round of software upgrades an out of office function so that if you are offline and 3 or more different registered users hit the recommend deletion button on a particular post it's taken down until you get a look at it. Perhaps some timing checks or other credibility checks. Only allow it to hide posts put up within the previous two hours (with an extended period for posts put up overnight).

Add in some functionality to discount use by posters in the habit of abusing the button and it might reduce the risk of damaging posts staying up any longer than necessary.

R0bert

lol/p

anyhow....i like one [gy]
who judges...consistantly

if he has any adgenda...im not seen it yet

i wont say he is the best moderator...
but hes the best ..i have posted under

i have recieved lifetime censure from other forums
for much less than bluies/blues...

[i missed his/her post]
but it seems i didnt miss-out on much

in the end justice was not only done
but seen to be done

on the other issue...4 sub mode-rate../mode-rateors..spotted the blue
[realise..WERE ALL MODE-RATING]...i have used the big red[cross]..to report spam..a few times]...

ie were all here to put in our bit

there is that thing of..too many cooks..despoiling the wroth
best we leave the wrath...out of it...
and have the consistancy..of the one...who the buck stops with..

Yes indeed TPP, jinny with a little 'j' has been dealt with very leniently at times I feel.
jinny, we have had discussions about whether we need more moderators on this site before. The general consensus at the time was that most were happy with the status quo.

I agree OUG. Graham does the best he can- given the many and varied personalities he has to deal with on this forum.
Anyone who is not happy with the way the forum is run can always go away and play elsewhere.
I am most happy to continue playing here......

Graham was away, not that far from me, he said visiting his son.
We all know the work he puts in here,give him a break.
He acted very fast after we told him.
We each of us should get the red cross working faster.
TPP all new threads are held up no doubt for good reasons.
Because the thread is about moderation let me say this, had yesterdays deletion not taken place, we all would know its content.
We are better for some not knowing.
Two posts, had they stayed, would have bought about a storm here.
Suzie online I firmly agree with almost every thing you and TPP write on this subject, that is in the last posts of you both.
I offer you both this, look at the post history, click the little head under a post, read some posters past.
Note for your self a seeming difference in posts .
I question why the difference.

I think you'll find that GY makes a judgement as to whether the person involved is able to do better. When I complained about OUG's efforts to evade the word-limit, Graham's firat response was to say "I think that's just how he speaks". It wasn't until OUG acknowledged that he deliberately flaunts the limit that he was suspended.

The capacity of the individual poster is very much at issue, as is their response to being moderated.

As one who has received more suspensions than most, I can't complain about the moderation and I won't. It seems some others have been more demanding of their particular views prevailing.

Basically we do have rules that we're all supposed to abide by on this forum . From what I can see - as long as we present our views, including dissenting ones, and they're argued in a constructive way - then I imagine they won't be edited. The views that are edited are ones that are clearly designed to disrupt. As stated earlier, the art of reasoned, intelligent argument is a skill not easily acquired.
Arguments are something we all confront at some time, especially on a public forum such as this. The thing to remember is try to argue in a logical manner. Sound reasoning will conquer unreasonable generalisations every time.

Try not to sound too dogmatic. If you don't pay attention to the other
person's opinion you'll appear pig-headed and will subsequently be ignored. Knowing your topic also helps. Finally, remain calm, no matter how provoked you may be. Good, calm arguing, wins the day, no one likes, or supports an abusive, illogical debater. They're best
ignored. Of course there comes a time when all this advice goes out the window - when someone pushes the right buttons - we all tend to react - that's when the moderator steps in. But at least we can keep
trying to be civil to each other.

TPP: your instincts from what i can see online.. i hv nothing much to say about. You know the saying:" can't teach an old dog new tricks?" It is between GY and me why I am allowed to post after the writings exchanged, not u. You just keep doing what you do, judging ppl you don't know and better still, trying to convince others what you believe in. Great job! Once bitten, twice shy. I learn, and grown..

R0bert: I hope such a software update exist.

suzeonline: whatever puts a smile on your face. You don't even spend that much time here.. in your so called playground.

Belly: Good job in character judgement. Not all old men are wise men. U can't figure me out so you let others do that for you. Bravo. As long as it justifies your actions right?

Anti: not everyone is the same as what you know from your past, stop judging.

I'm not sure of the history of this forum, but I certainly don't think it is fair to put all the responsibility on GY before right action is taken. He has better things to do then look after the little rebels here.

Excellent advice, Lexi. I think I'm sometimes perceived as dogmatic (though of course I like to think I'm not), so I'll work on that.

Dear OUG,
sorry I didn't respond to your post, above, which I invited you to comment on. Perhaps we can discuss it another time :-)

Jinny:"not everyone is the same as what you know from your past, stop judging."

Right you are. I had judged you as being wrongly characterised by TPP, but I'll stop that right now.

Still, I reckon some thought before posting would do you a lot of good.

Anti: I didn't judge others.. they judge me. I have the right to stand up for myself, and the right to choose what i write. And i have thought about it alot. Thanks.

It does make a difference posting immediately and taking a day to think about it. And I did. It made a big difference. You should try it.

But then again, we are all merely humans, with our nature...

jinny,

You seem to spend one half your time on OLO being judgmental and the other half criticizing others for being judgmental.
For someone who claims to spend most of their time thinking of ways to bring harmony to people's lives, you seem to spend an awful lot of time jumping threads to provoke fellow posters.

The post above mine has it right.
Jinny go back to your first thread here read your posts then mine in it.
Know it is very good moderating that gives you a chance here.
If my early morning notification, maybe others too, about those two posts that are no longer here did not get action?
I would not need to defend my self here, we all MUST understand some things right or wrong should not be said.
I go out on a limb, understand I should just ignore you Jinny, but it was a long time before those posts appeared that saw me make up my mind about you , based on nothing but your posts.
You please, must not ignore this, those who posted that will use every thing you say here against you DOCs may even turn up in court armed with it.
I never drive drunk never post if not thinking properly and need you to understand, while you have lost me, I truly want you to take good advice think about your attitude here it is not pleasant.

Lol.. Yes, of course u are right, I am physically sitting on a ledge, keeping a hawkful watch of my lovelies in the pool. U know multitasking? Females hv more talent for that. If u think I hv nothing better to do then to spend my time on OLO, well, too bad, u'd just fall into the same category aiy?

I write what I see.

I think u went off the thread btw.. scroll up. Discussion topic. Not me.

We should be contributing here how to make this forum better...

Jinny:”We should be contributing here how to make this forum better...”

It could begin with your departure.

I went and had a look, since the end of September so many here have given you such a fair go and were patient and tried to explain things to you and help you and give you advice.

Each one you snap and spit at like a feral old cat. Go watch your kittens properly before they drown.

jinny <"suzeonline: whatever puts a smile on your face. You don't even spend that much time here.. in your so called playground."

Dearest JJinny, it is none of your business how often I am on this forum.

If you check back, you will find I am tending to avoid the threads where you are trying to dominate the discussion.

Now I am thinking, why should I?

jinny,

I believe that you pride yourself on being different ... wearing different clothes, etc. I do not know you.

However, I have found that those who self-consciously try to be different, are usually deadly dull ... Speak to a goff ... deadly dull; speak to one who thinks pot makes them scintilating ... deadly dull ... the list goes on.

Those who like to irritate others (again I can't speak for you) are generally so insecure that they feel that this is the only way they will be noticed; a defensive position.

As stated, I don't know you. But from experience many would place you in the same category as the above. There are many factors which make people different/unique, but self-consciously trying to be different and being rude to others are certainly not among them.

Many of us may feel at times that the moderation is unfair ... this is human.

However, I think that Graham is holding a poisoned chalice. He is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.

Whatever he may see fit to 'strike' out, or let in, is bound to get someone's feathers ruffled.

Some of us need to take on the diction of diplomacy ... "how to tell someone to go to hell in a way they look forward to the trip".

I suspect, also, that Graham has to dedicate a considerable time to OLO with its many, disparate discussions. Would anyone like to have to do this ... :-[ Personally, I would prefer to endure a root canal ...

I am also guilty of getting grumpy about a decision ... a grump I harbored for three years.
I see it now as petty and small minded (my 'harboring' that is). I haven't quite "let it go" but in time ...

Ok, ok.. i'll try not to comment on anyone anymore. Sorry.. I can't help myself at times. But i had a good laugh reading all the responses just. Yes, i am totally insecure and my kittens are drowning..

I have learn so much and Belly, I so appreciate your opinion and the rest. Ever since I joined here things have gotten so much better. Thanks all. Sorry for the irritating bit. I'll try to stop picking off your brains.

Just some knowledge to share for those interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Hydroxybutyric_acid

This one is quite interesting. He researches Darwin theories, yet states that evolution has no purpose?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4491999408234054262#

And this one is important
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis

Cheers and hv a good week y'all :)

Sorry GY.

TPP this thread has made it, went right in to the top 40 lists.
Not because of the number of posts.
But its contents.
It gave air to the subject and let us talk about it.
A poster reminds us of posting to benefit OLO.
Wish that was true of her.
jenny look around who posts as if its a text message one post then not the next?
You and I know more about some posts ,do you value any ones opinion?
I think the best improvement is going to be your last ever post here.
You are conning your self but not me.

Belly: I don't get it. why are words so un-trusting and under-rated that no one respect it any longer. Too bad for me here aiy? When I say Thank you, I mean it. When I apologize, I mean it, if you don't believe me, it doesn't matter, because u don't know me. :)

So much for this thread, doesn't look like a lot hv learnt. It was good for me. Thanks.

If you all have such a problem with my presence here, please ask GY to ban me, i'm sure if he has enough complaints, because I am breaking all the rules here. Once i get banned, then i won't have a choice to comment. :) SIMPLE, no need to complicate things.. keep it simple.

Rules are set, i play by the rules now.

and just so u know, i quite dislike judgmental bullies.. for a good reason.

The sun is up behind the clouds, a new day, a new beginning, yesterday was a joy, today is a blessing. Only you and you alone can make your day good or bad. Happy monday everyone! :)

jinny, despite your distaste for judgement, the only thing that makes our opinions worth hearing is our judgement. Humans exercise judgement every single day of our lives and have done so since before we were human.

What you don't like is others using their capacity for analysis to judge you and your situation, especially when that judgement conflicts with your own. I don't either, but I have some confidence in my own ability to make good judgements, despite making the odd poor one along the way. I trust that my process for arriving at conclusions is pretty sound. That is possible because I have made an effort to learn a method and then tested and honed it against the often very hard judgements of others.

You gave some links earlier, may I suggest one you may find useful, but it will take some work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_logic

Learning to use AND, OR and NOT appropriately is very helpful in resolving all sorts of matters that seem too difficult.

The real skill, though, is learning to establish the starting premises for your chain of reasoning. Starting from the wrong place will lead to bad answers, no matter how good your logic.

I often rant a bit about feminism. It has two problems - it starts from poor premises and then tries to arrive at a pre-determined outcome with bad logic.

I like the idea of equality between the sexes insofar as it is possible, but the poor logocal underpinnings of Feminism mean it is unable to deliver that.

See what I mean?

Good point Anti, went through it. I know I brought it upon myself for playing games and not disclosing enough information. But that is my choice. 2+2 should equal to 4, but to some 2+2 equals to 22? I understand human nature a lot, and I learn a lot here.

Even though some female(s) have hurt you, does not mean all of them are the same. I can live with the attacking, just feel sad to see how people have evolved into. That's all...

Oh, and also, I'm not really the type who's going to sit there while some stranger gets their facts(god knows from where) wrong about me and insults my children. So there.

We all want equality, and that will come only in the future, right now, it is this presence we life in, so accept it. I don't have an issue with my physical world, it is always filled with smiles and i see couples in love, and happy family with happy kids. :)

oppss, off topic.. sorry. well R-E-S-P-E-C-T(like dat song) Anti for your last post:)

It wasn’t easy Belly, I always found myself using something as an example I shouldn’t be from a deleted post or thread and going back to delete where I became too specific. And to discuss moderation while not discussing moderation seemed to increase coffee and nicotine intake back here behind the screen.

Thanks to Jinny for all the examples of doh, mild off topic, me me me, and irritating behavior. All of which we have learnt are tolerated but thank goodness for Houel’s scroll wheel.

Gold stars to everyone that tried to educate her then gave up and tried instead to shut her up, obviously nothing works.

Sorry about Blue, I was all okay with it but OLO democracy rules and that works for me. I am starting to doubt my own ability to recognize if I am being abused or not anyway.

And Anti, only today did I understand about your reference to the “shaky Isles”. Good one. :)

TPP I think you know me by now,have a habit of saying it as I think.
And you have done nothing to change my mind you are ok.
Blue? do me a favor look at his brief post history, note the wild unfocused difference in a few.
Never be sorry for a post deletion, I never saw one handled that way that did not leave no other way, even mine.
I am unhappy with your insults Jinny.
But far worse my life has been one of trying to help others, you seem unwilling to hear good advice.
You would be aware that I am not as you claim, if I was without doubt I would publish the content of deleted posts, ones I told GY about to? protect you., and be suspended.
Find it in you, to under stand help must in your case be self help.
I will not, ever respond to you here again, you must prepare your self to live in the real world not hide online help comes quicker if you try.

Belly I changed my mind today, about half an hour ago.

Not seeing the forest for the trees or something. I came back feeling like I was a guest and should behave although not much slows me down if really annoyed like by miss long time small j.

But all through this thread I’ve been thinking of the site belonging to one person so of course you just put up and shut up.

While prattling on about the OLO community I missed something really fundamental.

Everybody.

People aren’t happy, I’ve come back to find them gone because of moderation. Maybe it wasn’t enough to clarify the rules maybe more questions were needed.

I’ll still put up and shut up or leave since obviously the choices are that simple, and I still want any banning to happen at sunset.

But is it supposed to be this way? We spend a lot of time talking about the rights and wrongs we see in the world and haven’t sorted our own little place. Something is festering here and it’s bugging me because I can’t figure out what it is.

Well, I think you've revived the thread TPP. I also have been feeling a little sanctimonious--by association as much as my own petty contributions. I've always had an aversion for hegemony and things seem somehow disquietingly settled, don't they...?
There has to be a little rough-house and the odd random element (like jinny) lest we become pietistic..

Just beat me to it, Squeers,

Wherever humans gather to discuss their opinions there will always be a few that are rancorous and others that are overly sensitive.
Ultimately if a forum is to be worth its salt in robust and diverse opinion there are bound to be occasions when some contributors are dissatisfied with the style of moderation.

You may have something there Squeers.

The rebels are rebelling right out the door or have been deleted and banned out of existance?

We're going to become a bunch of people who are of one opinion or are too polite to debate with any passion.

I can't even think of something disagreeable to say back to you and am totally disspointed in myself.

Err.. pooh pooh head.

Squeers:"There has to be a little rough-house and the odd random element (like jinny) lest we become pietistic."

Stap me vitals, I think the Commie-in-the-Corner's onto something, milord!!

As a graduate of Usenet, I can only paraphrase the Mentals and observe "the skins are getting thinner".

Vive la revolucion (whichever side you barrack for).

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility:
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
You know your places: God be with you all!

William Shakespeare, Henry V, Act III, Scene i.

... constant shouting will become very annoying ... A sudden loud burst grabs your audience's attention ... a period of quiet speaking can draw your audience in

... found this on a site for rules of debating ... not much else suitable for OLO ...

Churchill was the master of the quick reposte.

I doubt Graham would let through a post recommending a member be poisoned ...

In the past I would have happily poisoned Anti, Corny, Col, Houel a couple of times, benk for sure and Foxy on several occasions.

Oh and when staring at the online dictionary for the 10th time in a day I sometimes wished I could poison the whole OLO punch bowl.

But I probably settled for a heartfelt flame or snotty remark.

Nowadays I guess it would be safer to stand on my fingers.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/defamation-cases-multiply-from-facebook-twitter/story-fn5kfsdd-1225925849346

Defamation is only if real names are used and you state things about them as a fact?

Well pass the hemlock, comrades! I'm off to bed for as many hours of the blessed dreamless as I can pass before muster. I look forward to the morning's papers, especially the obituary section..

I am pleased to see Graham’s explanation regarding Deep Blue’s suspension. I didn’t see the post that was deleted but it certainly sounds like it deserved to be deleted.

But I’m a bit concerned about the writer being suspended. My feeling is that a warning would have been appropriate for a first offence, if it was a first offence. Maybe Deep Blue has been previously warned, I don’t know, but I think that a suspension without a warning in just about every case is a bit harsh.

I notice that Deep Blue is an enthusiastic new-comer on OLO this month and has really got into the groove with nearly 100 posts already. There is no indication in his/her user index of a previous deletion.

So to be suspended, despite what appears to be an obvious infringement of the rules, just appears to me to be a brick bat over the head instead of a gentle hand on the shoulder.

I’m in unknown territory here in making these comments. It appears to me to be totally appropriate to express this view, particularly on this thread about moderation issues and rules, but I know that posts have been deleted and posters suspended for questioning moderation decisions.

I also note that the rules have been updated to include: < Moderation rulings are final and will not be discussed on the forum >. Well, if I say that I’m not looking for a discussion, but just expressing my point of view, I hope that I will be seen to be not breaking this rule.

continued

The problem is, that no matter how clear the rules might appear to be, they don’t necessarily apply at face value. This happens all over the place in our society. I’ve made numerous comments on this forum about it particularly regarding road safety and workplace codes of conduct. Unfortunately, the rule of law as written and as practiced is often significantly different. This appears to be case most obviously on OLO with the off-topic rule.

I think that Graham is doing a great job as the moderator and is certainly trying to find the right balance, and that we posters and readers are not pulling our weight often enough by being reluctant to hit the red cross when we encounter dodgy posts.

But having been suspended once, without a prior warning, after more than four years with no problems, over something which I could never have imagined copping a suspension for, having been very careful in striving to understand the rules and the OLO culture, and feeling deeply offended as a result, I think that a gentle hand for first-time offenders would definitely be a good thing.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye.
(Miss Piggy).

Lady Nancy Astor: " Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea."

Churchill: "Nancy, if I were your husband, I'd drink it.”

What a shame we have no "Churchills" here.

What a colourful thread. Entertaining as it is, it do think of GY. Poor fella, he must read this thinking:"wat are these bunch of children doing?", and he has to put up with all our nonsense. hahahaha...

Irritating as I am(brought up that way, my dad and me take much pride in this, and if I didn't live up to it, i'd soooo be letting him down.), I would like to apologize, once again, to all those here I have managed getting on your nerves. Whether or not you believe me, is up to you, but sincerely, i do.. I feel like I've sorta tormented some of you mentally.

If you think you're stubborn.. all i need to do in close my eyes, cross my arms, tell myself I am more stubborn then you and blink! Ta-da! :p

Maybe it's better for me not to post because I really don't wanna upset anyone. I do stand up for what I believe in. Besides, what kind of a mother would I be if I didn't. If my kids found out about this when they grow older and that their mom just sat and did nothing about this, nahhh, so not me.

watch these for 5 minutes from the time I've put down, it's better coming from experts then me since i'm a con-feman.

1:49:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-55p1Al9k&feature=share (7mins roughly)

40:00 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4491999408234054262# (5mins should be enough)

it explains our behaviour pretty much i reckon. Not saying I am right with mine here. But I don't hold a grudge. Spur of the moment I might say something hurtful, which is wrong, but I did and I can't take it back now.

this is where we can express our opinions, and opinions it is. I suppose for the newer members here it will be a lot harder to be accepted. I miss that colour. Hope he comes back soon. He was quite entertaining in his own way.

Each an every post should be respected, because it comes from a being. whether or not you agree with the words, you should still respect it because it is someone else's view point on life. everyone is different, it is what makes us who we are today.

am sorry to have upset all of you i have angered or caused harm, i am just a human, incapable of being perfect. thanks for the opportunity here and the lessons. it has been great.

"today well lived, makes every yesterday a joy to remember, and every tomorrow a vision of hope"

count your blessings. we are lucky not to be the ones in that mine, our daughter was not that 12 yr old girl, we hv it good.. keep the positive vibes...

peace out n enjoy ur week!!

Think with me here please TPP and others.
I was at the heart of the foxy thing.
unhappy with a post from GY.
We got upset, right about then a person who had been posting and niggling SM turned out to be a sock puppet, had it appears three different tags.
Posts got deleted and in time each of the three sock puppets suspended.
Note please FOXY did no know, in my view, that a SP was at work, her Innocent enough post was deleted.
mine too because they referred to a deleated post,I may get and will except a suspension for this explanation.
She left, see her post history.
UNDERSTAND please not knowing why a post was deleted poster suspended can lead to people thinking it was wrong, it shows here in this thread.
Posts that named real names, people and right or wrong defamed them,bought this forum near to being sued have been deleted.
2 I will talk no more about, I notified them, YOU WOULD HAVE TOO.
Deep Blue got a week, he/she will be back , those who saw the post know it defamed and may have bought legal action against this site.
continued

Foxy and I fought what we thought was a defensive war here with a poster we believed had too much freedom, one I find it impossible to respect
We fought a battle we should have ignored, I was wrong.
Ignoring the bloke is much better.
I am a warrior if I thought for one minute I needed to be counted I would not retreat.
Those who have gone mostly could come back , mostly have clashed with most of us.
Do we want total freedom in another's private property?
Are we able to say things that may get the forum sued?
Again if I must I will say it get evidence before making claims of bias in deletions,you will not find any.
Do not built a mountain out of the 3 deletions named here , or shadows you only glimpsed.
TPP IF you knew the story ,one that forum rules and simple honor do not let me tell, you would be very pleased Graham acted.
In relation to one poster I think GY is being kind in not acting, but also keeping within the rules nothing said yet is enough to ban any one yet.

piper/quote..<<We're..going to become..a bunch of people
who are of one opinion..>....i agree

<<or..are too polite*..to debate with any passion.>.
yes i agree

<<..I can't even think of something..*disagreeable to say back to you..and am totally disspointed in myself.>>.

i con-curr
i mean...[i agree]

<<Err.. pooh pooh head.>>
oh shoot...me too

sorry i dont have additional adult content
to con*tribute...i feel drained...fast moving into the so*what mode

its allmost like im getting*..satifaction..
from not giving anyone*.. anything..to think..or mostly
to com-plain..about...even spell checking..to see im not using todays talking point...or seem to be taking sides..

i might begin using capitals soon...[naw too hard]..cant think..*and capitalise...at the same time..[im not going to be multit-asking]

im a male we dont capitalise..unless*..defending a weak point..and need to yell[or complain*].to initimidate...our way to being rite..

[even if/when..we wrote wrong]...[or deem others to have write..written/rote..
that..of which the complaining whiners..feel the need..to take note.

it somehow seems..un-austr-alian...to complain
if the point cant be made..in words...at the topic...
then why bother even reading it,..if complaint about..how/who wrote..

is your only reply

anyhow nothing else is worthy of even reading
[im practicing..expanding..on the scroll..revealation...theme

by not even clicking on some topics
simply by who wrote them

[yeah i know its pathetic..but is saving heaps of time]
and i now..got more time to be bored..[not drilled..]reamed..or..

oh heck whats the use

im shutting down my thinking
giving my typing finger a rest
let the foxes run their hen-house

oh my lord
im turing into a meta-phore hoar
well on my way to becomming a thought-less..bbbb-hore

no more

So what appears to be implied by a number of posters is that views are all uniform and there is little opportunity to debate without flaming and focussing on personal attacks.

We still seem to have people of differing views on site, what has changed is the tollerance for abuse of authors, other posters and possibly the site moderator.

I made my point earlier about the tone of comments aimed at Foxy in Cyberia earlier and the rest will depend very much on individual opinions. I'd greatly reduced my posting here for quite a while because of that style of posting.

I saw three of the posts which I think Belly refers to (not the blue one) and hit the button as well. I'd kind of like them to be around for the history aspect but for other reasons I think that they are better off gone.

R0bert

The Blue post was glaringly defamatory - there's no was way that it could have stayed up...that's why it was reported by four people, and would have been reported by more if they had seen it. Although, this one was so obviously reportable - most are not so clear cut.

I managed in the end to have a peek at Cyberia - and noted the stoush between Ginx and the reluctant Foxy. Quite frankly it seemed akin to a schoolyard brawl where the rest of them stood around and ogled and cheered while these two slugged it out. It was a spectacle indeed, but not the sort of thing that is going to furnish us with good articles on this site.

So the best poison to use against one's forum adversaries is a bit of creative wordsmithing - some people are ignorant dolts, some comments are idiotic - but a little sardonic wit, delectable irony or scintillating satire can be terminal when used in response.

I don’t get the Foxy thing Belly, there are vague hints that at some point some posts turned up that should be deleted and then they were, doesn’t sound too stirry. At which point did Foxy get in a big enough huff to leave? On Cyberia it mentioned one comment she wrote, which actually did seem to be bloody funny. You defended her and it all went to pot is about all I am understanding.

Other sites will go as far to wipe a message that has a real name in it. Slip ups occur. Blue I was thinking had used a name which I didn’t take much notice of… was his post deleted because of that or because he was cheeky to me? And honest he was trying to be funny and I kinda did go “Haha” when I read it.

I wouldn’t want OLO to turn into one like Altnews where a flare up happens that is outright abusive and chocka with real names. Read another thread last night where Qanda (have to check that) said goodbye, moderation seemed at the root of it.

Belly:”TPP IF you knew the story, one that forum rules and simple honor do not let me tell, you would be very pleased Graham acted.”

Maybe, I dunno. R0bert agrees, I still dunno.

OMG UOG that is what I've been saying for ages, mostly to myself because I am trying to be one, it seems un-Australian to complain.

And I don’t get the ones that are complaining at Cyberia. But it started cause of whatever has built up here and lately reached some sort of peak. Why they are so spewy rather than how it is projected is what starting bugging me.

Poroit:”So the best poison to use against one's forum adversaries is a bit of creative wordsmithing - some people are ignorant dolts, some comments are idiotic - but a little sardonic wit, delectable irony or scintillating satire can be terminal when used in response.”

Yeah, some of us muppets need training up a bit.

Question; Mostly it is females who have gone?

Piorot "but a little sardonic wit, delectable irony or scintillating satire can be terminal when used in response."

That can cut both way's. Those same tools can be brutal at undermining an opponent who may be making good points but who does not do as well with those skills. They can be terminal when used in attack as well as response.

I've occasionally excelled myself with short pieces of satire but generally I struggle to use those tools with any real flair and on most topics I'll be outclassed by some of those I disagree with. I know that there are others in the same boat.

The forum should be a place where idea's can be discussed without it being a battle of who has the thickest skin, the best skill with manipulating words, the greatest willingness to bludgeon an opponent or divert attention from what they are actually saying.

I've not spent any significant time on other general discussion sites, the brief visit's I've had really left me with the opinion that learning and discussion of idea's were not generally valued commodities. OLO stands out because there is space for opposing idea's and sometimes considerable respect between people from different sides of arguments.

R0bert

TPP,

I wasn't just a name - there was a whole lot of stuff attached to it...and it didn't seem to be written in a humorous context to me.

I really think Foxy just go caught up in something that rapidly spun out of control when she got in the spat in Cyberia. The thing is that it is easy to begin feeling disaffected, especially if, like her, you normally strive to uphold a certain standard...once you start comparing instances of moderation you will invariably come up with imbalances. They all have to be viewed within the context in which they were doled out. Life isn't always fair and each one of us can take ourselves a tad too seriously at times.

RObert,

Yes, I'd agree. I'm not as skilled in those areas as I'd like to be either.

I think we just have to choose our battles wisely, taking into account the style of the person we are debating. Sometimes we find we are hitting our heads against a brick wall - sometimes we feel we are being provoked. It's at those times that we have to exercise some judgment and control...and sometimes we just have to let things go. Some of our best lines need to be run through our internal censors before we post, just like in everyday life...communicating is one long series of thoughts and edits.

Posted by Deep-Blue, Saturday, 20 November 2010 12:41:31 PM:

"[Deleted. Flaming, revealing identity of children subject to DOCS orders and defamation.]"

Ludwig says, in relation to this event:

"I am pleased to see Graham’s explanation
regarding Deep Blue’s suspension. I didn’t
see the post that was deleted but it certainly
sounds like it deserved to be deleted. ...
But I’m a bit concerned about the writer
being suspended."

As one of the users that reported that post, trust me it did deserve deletion, as any who have used this forum for any length of time would have known. The post threatened to reveal the identities of children the subject of DOCS orders. That was in itself enough. My reporting of the post had nothing to do with any hostility to the views of Deep-Blue: indeed, as a relatively new identity on OLO, I had not formed any opinion as to Deep-Blue's posting style or, if there was one, agenda.

Ludwig's concern as to suspension, whilst understandable in the context of his own relatively recent experience, http://bit.ly/fJK4sp , is in this case misplaced. Deep-Blue's deleted post appeared to me to also be an attempt to penetrate TPP's quite legitimate veil of OLO anonymity, by means of a demand that she dissocciate herself as being the person the subject of certain specific (and defamatory) allegations. Although I made no suggestion to that effect in my reporting of the post, I formed the opinion that the payload of this post may have been laying in wait for TPP since her return to OLO.

A subsequent post of Deep-Blue's on Saturday, 20 November 2010 at 2:06:55 PM, one that remains up in the thread referring to both the allegations and associated demand made of TPP to supposedly 'prove her innocence' with the words "Its a legitimate story that to my knowledge has nothing to do with the pied piper ...", is utterly disingenuous. The allegations were aimed directly at her!

Something else may be afoot here.

In saying "something else may be afoot here", I am expressing an opinion.

Another opinion of mine is that OLO is taking on some of the characteristics of a 'journal of record'.

In circumstances where the influence historically believed to have been wielded by the MSM, and in particular its editorial capacity to keep certain subjects out of public debate, is becoming less, I believe it is unwise to underrate the potential for sites of the nature of OLO to be perceived as a threat by those who might seek to control, or take advantage of, 'public opinion', and thus be targetted for disruption.

Almost without fail, those interested in shutting down public debate on any matter take first resort to attacking the credibility of the messenger.

An incognito messenger brings no balance of credibility to any debate or discussion. Any argument such incognito poster puts up stands or falls according to its own intrinsic merit and/or the quality of references upon which it may depend for its factual bases. OLO provides, through the web, a ready means of bringing to bear, in association with any opinion offerred, the sort of evidence that once was the sole preserve of good investigative journalists. There likely would be some in and around the machinery of government and/or oligopolistic corporatism who greatly resent the opportunities for bringing about transparency that OLO offers.

As a case in point, TPP in the topic 'Policing Potential Service Failures for Profit' has posted what appear to be relevant links, and appears to be making a case, from the perspective of an accredited foster-carer within the system, that is running counter to that of both the NSW government and those parts of the MSM so far giving the subject air. There would be those with a vested interest in shutting her discussion, of necessity conducted in generalities, down.

To dismiss this discussion as to Moderation, Flaming, Off-Topic, and Rules as being of the trivial 'go get a life' sort, whilst it may contain posts of that character, would, in my opinion, be a mistake.

oh..dear..the rot has set in

to quote..poiro..<<I'd agree...I'm not as skilled
in those areas..as I'd like to be either.>>

you have a way with words
please*..dont cry poor
let it flow..if it needs to flow

[only few are reading...and even less remembering...anything is better than silence...[even simply saying its nonsense...and giving

EVEN one reason to support..'it'..being nonsence,..rebuts*..a nonsense

<<I think we just have to choose our battles wisely,>>what rot
there is a reply...and obsession...simply reply
and your point has ben maade...thus can move on

dont avoid others stupidity..[were all fools..idiots...on occasion...only god is perfect]

<<taking into account..the style of the person we are debating.>.

if you recognise..'their style'...moke them back in the same coin
[then move on]

<<Sometimes..we find we are hitting our heads..against a brick wall>>
or just cant stand watching others..*pretend..there is no wall?

<<sometimes we feel we are being provoked.>.
mostly we are...or else why bother posting
we self correct...once we realise...our error

<<sometimes we just have to let things go.>.
but the reason...why..
is often more important...that either..our replie...or ignore
[we can let too much..go]..[and then what have we got?]

<<communicating is one long series..of thoughts..and edits.>
agree...but also its a path..that leads ourselves...and our...br-others..back into the light..or at least..towards..the right path..[for them]..we each have our own learnings/leanings..loves/hates

things..that concern us
or should concern...others
or be of..*no concern...to anyone*

Interesting thoughts, RObert and Poirot.
Being one who does resort to satire at times, I feel I have to defend the practice somewhat. I think Poirot's thoughts here are the most balanced. It's important to remember that all language is rhetorical, and that what we glean from each others posts comes from the whole communication; that is, the context, what's gone before, how we couch it, how we're perceived based on previous post history etc. etc. Anti, above, for instance, refers to me as "the Commie-in-the-Corner", based on his linguistic identikit of Squeers's posts. Thus what Squeers says is not judged merely on merit, but on preconception. That preconception is different from person to person, dependent upon where there sympathies lie, whether the two have clashed before etc. Of course it's true that we all have a bias and don't communicate from some impartial intellectualism. Indeed it could be argued that everything we say is a subjectivised take on the subject matter at hand, which possibly doesn't even exist in objective form..
I'd only add that I try not to use satire aggressively; more defensively or in frustration. Also, I'm not particularly gifted at it either, though it comes more easily than the substantial posts I write. I often labour long trying to craft my thoughts as lucidly as I possibly can. When they're then dismissed out of hand, from wilful ignorance and prejudice, rather than rational engagement, I'm often then moved to take revenge in satire.

I didn’t notice Poroit but it was perspective again. I had three tabs open and was messaging on three sites and being thoroughly abused on the two others so Blue’s message just didn’t register.

Forrest:”The post threatened to reveal the identities of children the subject of DOCS orders…”

Oh. And DoCS seem to not care if you do it they just want to catch you or they’d sit down and give a decent lecture on what you are allowed and not allowed to say to protect the privacy of children. But I was told I could talk about NGO’s, not that they would defend me from the NGO’s if I put a step wrong there either.

But thank you for those that spotted what was happening when I didn’t. He may have been using what I am to finally get something out that was a large issue for him/her?

I’m sure the mens group do the same. I think they love any female post and see us as no more than platforms from which to air their grievances in response.

UOG:”<<communicating is one long series..of thoughts..and edits.>
agree...but also its a path..that leads ourselves...and our...br-others..back into the light..or at least..towards..the right path..[for them]..we each have our own learnings/leanings..loves/hates”

I want five Cyberia peeps back. I know some already are and it seems silly to bother with another name to navigate being banned, or weirder still doing it when your name is not banned.

Squeers, I wasn’t sure if the commie in the corner was an insult or not. With Anti I first assume everything he says is then reply anyways.

With my change of mind there is a hope Graham will ease up, he said other things can be going on at the time he is requested to delete something. I get how annoying it is to debate endlessly if a moderation decision is right or wrong. Can posts be suspended until time is taken to have a good look at them in context or the person explain their position?

Squeers:"Thus what Squeers says is not judged merely on merit, but on preconception"

Or it may have just been a joke...

Of course TPP backs you up when she says:"I wasn’t sure if the commie in the corner was an insult or not. With Anti I first assume everything he says is"

Ooh, hooo, the skins are getting thinner, yeah.

Anti:"Of course TPP backs you up when she says:"I wasn’t sure if the commie in the corner was an insult or not. With Anti I first assume everything he says is"

Ooh, hooo, the skins are getting thinner, yeah."

Cheers for the example babe.

Dear Anti,
I assure you I wasn't the least bit offended, and knew it wasn't intended to offend. It was just a good example of what I was saying. Whoever we read we have a preconceived notion of their stance on the topic. We already have a "database" on the poster which allows us to infer their latest effort rather than read it with fresh eyes. Of course in most cases this is sufficient since the bias overrules all argument or contrary evidence. Thus, OUG is unlikely to pronounce himself an atheist any time soon; AGIR is never going to come out in favour of action on climate change, and it's probably safe to gloss their posts. A critic once said that the polemic for liberation of the surfs is watermarked on every page of Tolstoy's novels.
The question that fascinates me is, can any of us be genuinely impartial, or harbour contradictory prejudices simultaneously?
But this is all too distracting.
..Shall encounter you all elsewhere.

The Pied Piper, "I want five Cyberia peeps back"

Are we to understand that was your underlying purpose in getting this thread approved and your frequent protestations of ignorance of the rules, flaming and so on and of who had been suspended was just an act?

You have put a lot of effort into keeping the thread moving in that direction it would seem and you also seem to know who is back and active on the site under a different name despite being suspended or whatever.

Forget the personalities and the wolf in sheep's clothing routine, what practical recommendations do you have to improve the rules to enhance the contributions and experience of the broad cross-section of people using the site?

cornflower..<<what practical recommendations..do you have to improve the rules..to enhance the contributions..and experience of the broad cross-section..of people using the site?>>

ok it..{the question]..should be here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11090&page=0

but i would simply suggest blanking out the offending bits
[and allowing privledged people to scroll accross it to read the origonal...obscured bit]...or allow the complainer to rewite it

or offer a suggestion of how the ORIGONAL poster could rewrite it..AGAIN...[but i allready suggested these there...so repeat them here]

i resent piper getting all the blame
i want some too

even if people skip my posts
WER'E ALL IN THIS TOGETHER

not..TO-get-her

TPP:"Cheers for the example babe."

Oh no, it's all your own doing. I couldn't possibly take the credit.

<sings> Yeah, they're getting thinner...

That’s a bit of a reaction Corny. I thought what I wanted was to know what was different and clarify what had changed.

When I got back on OLO a couple of weeks ago CJ was here and so was Fractelle/Severin then Graham left a message in this thread saying they wouldn’t be much longer. Houel then said Foxy was here under a different name and that Ginx and Foxy had a set to over on Cyberia – at which point I went and had a look. Until this thread I had never heard of the blog.

I think I was online in March briefly and last October (?) before that. Dunno will have to go check my own posts.

So the rules and how they have evolved got talked about and I understood them I think.

Then yesterday I realised I missed the people who I saw on Cyberia. I had counted 5 of them when looking at the links GY posted. They were very prominent personalities here before I left.

I left a message saying I had changed my mind and that something felt wrong.

A previous recent post had my suggestion to improve things. Context and explanation before deletion or banning.

I really think you sit there Corny and decide what would upset a person before you say it. Do they value honesty? Why then yes I will call them dishonest. You’ve always been particularly nasty in your wannabe emotive delivery which says a lot about your own honesty doesn’t it. And how paranoid can you get? Just lead everyone by the nose did I? This says far too much about your own little ego.

Anti I wish you had been where I have been online recently, I don’t think anyone on OLO could create more than a raised eyebrow, two if they are lucky. Given the current level of moderation the chance has probably passed by to make me cross. Col isn't over Cyberia as well is he? Bloody should be. :)

Found every post after my last interesting and all contributed to the thread.
FG RObert and others got it very right.
Thanks FG for the deleted post and its reasons did not bother to read why
TPP Friend believe me it can not Be said, those two posts must not be repeated here.
Foxy having problems? that poster gave every one trouble in near every post.
ONCE more foxy and I felt one poster was getting too much support, we felt an intervention was a bit one sided , we should have ignored him.
Foxy left, no one forced her to go, I would like her to return.
Post federal election views became heated, respect for others views went out the door, in my view some posts insulted the truth.
BUT I should have ignored it foxy should have too.
Look at the list of respected posters who know about deletions, and support them.
C J Morgan felt this site was getting too conservative read his post history, examinator has been in conflict here for a long while, not with me.
Read Grahams in put to this thread few of those in that page are banned from OLO.
Let us say something controversial so we can get a discussion going but let us understand a story exists in the post history of those we talk of.
A honest look may find one posted a few times while looking like a party was underway.

Some people instinctively attack. There's often more criticism generally leveled against success than failure, more suspicion of excellence than of mediocrity. Relationships are people's primary teachers.They are the context in which people either grow or deny themselves and others the opportunity to do so. Most people are thrown curve balls in the form of people and situations they're tempted to judge. How otherwise would people grow but by growing through such challenges? Of course attack is an easier response than forgiveness, and that's why people are tempted to give into it.

Everything has its story; and everyone has obstacles to overcome. Each of us goes through transitions and transformations. The important thing is that we learn from them. We will encounter many people on our journey through life. How they help shape us into the people we become (and still hope to be), I guess will be up to how each of us reacts in each situation.

Lexi all that is true but.
We will and should differ, without that difference there is no need to communicate talk even.
We mostly do, but not all the time talk without trouble.
In threads like in our opinion I tried to explore why we think differently.
This thread is evidence we do indeed.
It reminds me of my fault in my dispute with just a few posters, I feel free to say I was both wrong to respond and unfairly to the point of silliness treated by them bias was but one sin my views bought silly by inference another.
So be it, we should do our best not to engage with those who only want confrontation.
But we must not get away from being us, free to think what we want.
Rumors innuendo grow wings become something not related to reality.
Names ,true ones, defamation, a host of dreadful things that true or not got deleted.
So they should.
I feel some times maybe I should not have put OLO first, left that for all to see, and not have to find some questioning deletions.
But to do that would be a very weak act, I am not weak, would defend guilty or Innocent from such, I hope others would too,
And that none of us would post such.

Belly:

I agree with you, we are all different, and we should be true to ourselves - within reason. By all means people should stand up for themselves, but not to the point where it hurts others. I don't understand the tendency on people's parts to think that their way is the right way and that people who disagree with them are bad. I cannot understand how some people disrespect the rights of others to hold opinions different from their own. As I've written previously, we can disagree vehemently yet appropriately. Disagreements must be respectful, or as I've stated the disrespect itself poisons people more than either side's position in the argument ever could.

It's more important that we renew dignified and respectful dialogue with those who don't agree with us than that we keep congratulating those who have the wisdom to see things our way. However I want to add that I cannot imagine you disrespecting anyone in that way.

Hey Lexi,

I think people instinctively attack back and actually condemn failure in others more. Attacking isn’t as easy as forgiving is it?

I’m more inclined to think turning the other cheek results in a sore face and not much else.

No idea what suspicion of excellence than of mediocrity means.

Relationship seems too broad a word to define what teaches us. Does it mean the one you have with your partner or with everyone you come into contact with?

But I’ve certainly met many a person who needed a damn good shaping.

Lexi: “By all means people should stand up for themselves, but not to the point where it hurts others.’

Why not? Or how would you know online?

Lexi:”It's more important that we renew dignified and respectful dialogue with those who don't agree with us than that we keep congratulating those who have the wisdom to see things our way.”

Who does that?

North Korea?

TPP

"Who does that?"

"North Korea?"

Not tonight, anyway....North and South Korea appear to be having a skirmish of the more serious kind, as we speak.

Piper:

I don't have the answers to the big questions in life. But everything is relative. However one of the most important lessons of my life has been that the power to forgive is the greatest power there is. As for
North Korea? I'm afraid I don't understand the point that you're trying to make with that remark.

An article I found on the North/South Korean conflict had the following quote which get's us back on topic (maybe)

'Lee was quoted by his spokeswoman earlier as saying: "Respond firmly, but make the best efforts not to worsen the situation."' http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2928751

That sounds like a good summary of what some of what Lexi was saying.

R0bert

Excellent work, RObert...sounds like great advice to me.

Some very wise words in posts above from Poirot and RObert that I think I will try to follow :)

I still don't know what Cyberia is though?
I must say I miss Foxy very much.

I was thinking that maybe Graham could briefly explain the reasons why he gets rid of inappropriate posts- thus letting others know what not to do!

What I would hate to see is a total intolerance of any disagreements between posters.
While people should not resort to nastiness or very personal attacks as per the OLO rules, it may get a little boring if we sanitize it too much :)

Aw Lexi, I thought you were giving us the answers.

I do believe many find their power when they stop forgiving, which will probably lead on to me wondering what needed forgiving and if they were even asking to be forgiven in the first place. And just by asking should they receive it… generally my answer is no why should I. I see forgiving as a gift given... now letting something go is different and usually suits me.

"Respond firmly, but make the best efforts not to worsen the situation."'

Nice one R0bert. But is that what Lexi is saying? And if South responds firmly what will the North respond with – even more firmness? And that is how the fight started.

Suze, no need to miss her… a rose by any other name…

“Suze:"While people should not resort to nastiness or very personal attacks as per the OLO rules, it may get a little boring if we sanitize it too much :)”

Agreed. Although I stand by calling Corny a Pratt when he acted like one. :P

Suzie there were a number of posts referring to it way back. Some posts by Graham with links to copies of some of the material is at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/user.asp?id=5745

Copies of a few pages referenced by Graham can be found at
www.onlineopinion.com.au/documents/articles/Postcards from Cyberia Democracy or Demockery.mht
www.onlineopinion.com.au/documents/articles/Postcards from Cyberia Grima Fuhrer.mht
www.onlineopinion.com.au/documents/articles/Postcards from Cyberia Rules of Engagement.mht
Some of us had difficulty opening them, I think I had to download the file then open it.

CJ Morgan had also made some comment about it earlier in this thread.

As I understand it CJ set the site up for those unhappy with OLO.
By the time I found out about it a login was required so I've not had a full look at what was going on. The bit's I saw included edited pictures of Graham and some very nasty comments directed at Foxy by Grim.

There is a lot of history there which I'm not across so I'm avoiding too much speculation about the rest.

R0bert

Squeers,

I think satire and other devices are brilliant ... Those who are gifted with such ability are to be greatly admired.

However, not all people are sensitive to these devices, and undoubtedly would take comments quite literally.

Also, I wonder how Graham would moderate a piece in the vein of Swift's "Modest Proposa.l" Perhaps Graham would like to make comment.

oug suggested that offensive lines could be blanked out. This would certainly be some guide for OLO writers. Examples in context can be invaluable in demonstrating what is/not permitted.

Suze,

Foxy's here...just has another name and posting layout.(Guess who?)

Just have to add that the lively debate was between Foxy and Ginx - not Grim.

Geez...no wonder I like your posts Poirot! :) xxx

Thanks for that info RObert, I guess I don't have time to read all posts or contribute much as often as I would like, but I still like to know what is going on!

I think I will give the cyberia blog a miss :(

I believe this thread has been very interesting and informative.
Some of the ideas expressed in these posts can only go on to make OLO even better, I am sure.

Cheers,
Suze.

Dear suzeonline,

I think political satire can be an excellent device and I love Swift's Modest Proposal. I made a modest proposal of my own here once http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2899&page=0#65859 and planned to elaborate, but it didn't catch on.

Lexi, apparently, is Foxy btw. Apart from dropping her stanzaic form (which I rather liked), the new incarnation appears to be less formal in its address..
I'll have to try a shapeshift one of these days

ok wading in where fools only dare go
[yep im going into battle]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11273&page=0

just saying my goodbyes early
the whole issue is clouded by racism
and a brief reconoiter yesterday revealed many present there
[many used as proportion..not quantitivly]

anyhow i go to rebut the many faulse premise
in the lead article..
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=11273&page=0

as well as those..feeding off its negativity..
i of course will try to be nice..

and hope*..no ones posts shall be deleted,...
as TOGETHER..they reveal the real truth...

anyhow...
nice knowing you all

Hi, just thought I would drop a couple of tidbits of information into this thread that might be of interest.

First thing is that we are audited by AC Nielsen as part of the advertising arrangements on the site and as a result we get weekly reports on our readership numbers. Last week, for the first time ever, the forum (which includes all comments on the bottom of articles) had more page views than the journal articles themselves.

Part of that may of course be due to some of the intense discussions going on here, but perhaps part of it is due to the commenters having become more civil and spending more time discussing articles rather than dissing each other.

Second is that I had an author (not one who has been party to any of these thread discussions) send me an email saying how they noticed that the quality of comments had got better, as judged by the comments on their article.

We've published 7 articles this morning because there was just so much choice. I think you will find authors are much more willing to send us pieces if they feel like they are getting some respect.

I think the same will be true of people who read the comment threads and who think about commenting.

Good news GY and OUG not sure what you are getting at, as the person you seem to be,you would want things that have been deleted, to go too.
Thinking of another thread as a result of this one, but not wanting to stop the most interesting one we have had for a while.
Not visited CJM have no problems with him but seems to be a hide away for some ,well one, we are better without.
Has its total posts matched the number of this thread?

Very good Graham. I agree; the standard certainly seems to have lifted.

My friend, who has been a voracious reader of OLO for five years but has never posted, has made similar observations. One of the main reasons that he doesn’t post is because he is loathe to cop a load of abuse and name-calling. Maybe at last he’ll start posting.

Maybe there are a whole lot of other readers out there who will do the same.

It is all looking good. Well done.

I've just had a reread of the comments under the John Stone piece OUG referred to and come to a very different conclusion to OUG.
I'm not seeing anything there I'd be hitting the recommend for deletion button. The tone is relatively civil, the closest to overt racism seem's to be in a piece I'd quoted from the article and a comment by OUG.

"basiclly you kill off the leaders.
re-educate..their children

leave a few retarded ones behind..to make the whole lot look bad
then go in for the theft of their cluture and future"

ALGOREisRICH is in there doing battle with Fabian's but depending on how much slack you want to give the most racist comment seemed to be the "few retarded ones" by OUG.

Perceptions play such a big part in how we all read this stuff.

R0bert

belly laugh/quote..<<OUG..not sure what you are getting at,
as the person...you seem to be,...you would want things that have been deleted,..to go too.>>

not sure why your trying to put words into my mouth bell-y

i thought i was QUITE/claer...i dont favour deletion...at all

in fact*..favour SPECIFIC...deletion...
OF THE..offending...BIT*[s]...only*

even then...i resent their removal...
as it puts any reply*..out of context*

this reply would only ...'make sense'...
when your post..[that it relates..TOO}...is still there
were it..deleted[for egsample]..this coment..would be out of context

<<Thinking of another thread..as a result of this one>>
thats great,...it should begin..with a link back to this one
as well as a link..HERE..back to it

the text then should*..explain..the different...aspect
you wish to raise there..[or other reasonings]

like...say IF*..this topic..has gotten corrupted..of track
off topic...deserving a new start..[in which case the thread..that has been corrupted..should be arcghived..[for completness of record]..and the THEN edited topic..[this one ..allowed to continue...

WITH THE OFFENDING BITS EDITED OUT
but still kept intact..in its context..[on its own page]
and kept open..for other coments..according to the normal rule

of course..these comments would properly be better on grayhams
othwer topic..about forum impovments[but im not posting yet anopther...link to it

[which by the way..is the reason..
for replies..getting more vieuws than the lead article]

we should simply use more links
the more we click on our own links
the more google search turns them up in a google search
[thats the big secret..gray]

simply drop in more inhouse links

rob...lol...
its civil...because
all are posting with the same mind

all yes men
your comments...there
should be noted

QUOTE..<<Before reading this piece..I suspect that I would have shared John Stone's views about the referendum,..that comment leaves me looking a bit harder.>>

so lets look at that comment
funny enough..the same i rebutted..[as reading confusingly...with john INSERTIONS..assertions..mixed throughout]

he makes this read///LIKE a conclusion
of the bringing them home report

but note how HE ..and THEE
use it

quoting..thee..<<..' The "violence-racked, female-oppressive, sexually predatory cultures" are examples of what goes wrong when people loose hope and respect for themselves and their communities..>>..recalling..your other quote<<that comment leaves me looking a bit harder.>>

i will hold thyat your of the same mind
as you were before reading/quoting..your favourite line
ie john was feeding you..stuff you loved..confirming a thing you allready believe

that was my main point
he wrote that specificly..
for the majority of yes men..who relied..

*affirming..your own..preconcieved bias

its the lowest form of reporting
hardly deserving of reply..because its..SO obvious
so obvious i couldnt bother replying yesterday...as many others wont either

but lETS leave..THAT TOPIC..*FOR THAT PAGE...eh?
ie..keep it in the ORIGONAL-context..[on the ONE page]

OUG you raised that page here with accusations of racism against others.

I've pointed out in the context of your posts on this thread that the most racist comment in the discussion seemed to be by yourself. I'm guessing you don't see it that way.

You now chose to interpret my acknowledging a previous agreement with the general thrust of what the piece is about as accepting a portion of the piece which I'd singled out for criticism.

Is that deliberate misrepresentation of what I'm saying or do you really not get it?

R0bert

an egosample of how things might work better

my attempt to return..this..robs..destraction
BACK TO..ITS PROPER PAGE

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11273#190155

all further comment
on this*..topic
shall ONLY be..*at this..[page]

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11273#190155

no further comment enterd into
on this moderration topic

please correct my sumation
where you find it errant

then make your point..there
and i will REPLY..you there

[subject to posting limits]..there

now back to the 'moderation TOPIC'
have a nice day folks

and the topic IS
Moderation, Flaming, Off-Topic, Rules

[this is my suggestion
on how we can redirect..those...ok me too..
from going off topic]..

egsample being worth a thousand words

in my defence..i was giving an egsample
and a goodbye..

in case somone complained