My nephew has bought a house in a suburb in Sydney where there are a lot of muslim residents. 2 little girls (around 6 to 8 years old were walking past his neighbours ,when their dog started barking at them .these little girls were terrified and my nephew went out to see what was wrong (they both wore head scarves)He tried to pasify them but they never understood a word he said and seemed even more diturbed,they ran of screaming .... I wonder where these children go to school?
At that age you might think they know a little english at least.
I wonder if they attend an Islamic school where their language is spoken . I think it is quite dangerous that they never understood english. it was an open discussion when my nephew came back inside.

I think it is dangerous, not of your rather big claims that kids don’t need to take English as part of their compulsory education, but for you to jump to conclusion and start forming ill-supported opinion, particularly in an environment where everything seems to have to do with your race.

There are other perfectly valid explanations of the kids’ behaviour:

- They are terrified, as you acknowledge in your post, of the dog in question (what kind of dog are you referring to?)
- They are afraid of strangers, in this case your nephew, and their parents told them not to talk to strangers. Note in this case they are just kids.
- They are pretending to not understand your nephew, to have a bit of fun.

Let me know if these not not plausible.

My point is,these children did not I underline ,did not speak english. They were not being funny ...at all.
The dog is a medium sized mutt.the children had been to a party 3 or 4 doors down and had balloons. that may have triggered the dog off ,My concern is the parents have bought these children up to speak only their mother language.Maybe they speak little english ,but not so at the time this happened. They paniced.
How can they tell some one to help them if they are not taught english....

In certain parts of Sydney you will find many headscarf-wearing little girls who are newly-arrived in this country.

The fact that they did not speak English does not mean that they can't.

Human beings under stress almost always respond in their native language, and under the circumstances, it's perfectly understandable that these kids hurried off without responding, even more so if a response would have been necessary in a foreign language.

Ask yourself, patricia22au, what you would have thought if two white, unveiled little girls in this situation had refused any consolation and run away. My guess is you would have concluded that they were to frightened and confused to respond.

Sounds to me like you are the one panicking, patricia22au. Dangerous, indeed!

In any event, have you thought of taking issue with the owner of the dog, rather than the frightened little girls?

W, dogs are usually expected to bark if they are startled by something. I wouldnt be taking issue with the dog owner. What do you expect it to do, blow bubbles and turn somersaults?

I think the point is that no-one wants to see scared little girls (or boys). It makes it hard to help someone if there is a language barrier, particularly if one is panicked. Yes, perhaps they would have run off screaming anyway in this situation. The issue is how do we (any Australian) extend help to someone that has trouble understanding what we say? I feel strongly that people need to have good english skills when coming to this country (with obvious exceptions - refugees is the one that springs to mind, but they should undergo funded programs immediately). Situations that involve panic or confusion have the potential to end up much worse when there are communication problems.

Country Gal, I agree with you that, unlike our differences in the racism debate in another thread, everyone should have conversational English. A nation needs to have something in common amongst its citizens. And obviously being able to communicate would greatly assist in any mutual help that might be offered and sought in an emergency.

But I would like to point out that no one so far has disagreed with this here. No one has suggested English should be replaced.

Given the limited info provided by Patricia22au, we are all just speculating, a bit unfair for the little kids who obviously would not log on to this forum. Can they actual read it anyway, Patricia might ask when she jumped to conclusion based on heresay and interesting implied assumptions (these girls wear head scarves, her post mentioned).

Also Patricia22au a medium sized dog might be big enough to scare little girls, whether they wear head scarves or not. I know a fair few adult grown-ups who have to duck and hide when a dog walks past, even when the dog has chains and month caps tied on. So maybe it really isn’t such a dramatic incident.

My point was simply ..my nephew went to see the comotion and couldn't pasify them to perhaps say ,the dog lives in that house and does it all the time(no law says it can't) don't be scared...Thats all .
Then we discussed the fact that the children didn't speak english. What happens if the dog did jump the fence in hynsight and did bite one of them ,how would he have known where they lived ,perhaps after calling an ambulance.
This is getting very deep ,but worse could happen, out by themselves..
The classes are there for all to learn if they are going to live in this english speaking country.
And if they are holidaying the parents should have been with them.

Maybe they just arrived and haven't learned yet. Learning a second language doesn't happen over night.

For example, for someone with such a love for the English language, you're making a disturbing number of basic spelling errors - maybe you could do with a refresher course yourself.

I would concur with the poster who brought up Patricia's spelling and grammar. It has been my experience that ignorance is the cause of racism.

In any case, in the many countries I have lived, the people of those countries invariably and warmly helped me to become more proficient in their language.

Given the attacks by dogs on children it would seem wise to be wary of dogs you do not know.

Wish I had more time, but there is a feeling in the writer's post that oozes intolerance and is glad to have something negatice to say about Muslims- however nonsensical the gripe is.

I would concur with the poster who brought up Patricia's spelling and grammar. It has been my experience that ignorance is the cause of racism.

In any case, in the many countries I have lived, the people of those countries invariably and warmly helped me to become more proficient in their language.

Given the attacks by dogs on children it would seem wise to be wary of dogs you do not know.

Wish I had more time, but there is a feeling in the writer's post that oozes intolerance and is glad to have something negative to say about Muslims- however nonsensical the gripe is.

The issue here was not my spelling etc.It was concern for young imigrant people who have come here to share our wealth and happiness.
So the least thing for them to do is learn to communicate with the people who are citizens here.
(My eye sight is not good ,but I guess that is no excuse is it...)

See, the problem patricia, is that your whole argument is based on assumptions. You know nothing about these children, you're only guessing that they aren't citizens, you're only guessing that they've immigrated (and not just visiting), you're even only guessing that they don't know English.

Basically you're not in a position for any kind of judgement or commentary unless you know these things for sure.

And trust me, if they've moved here for good, and are young children, they'll learn English. Kids learn language far more easily than adults do (A 3 year old learns an average of 4 new words per day, without even trying).

So don't worry!

Sadly you do not have life experience to understand what I am saying,your ignorance would not have helped in this situation I can see ,I rest my case. may god help non english speaking persons who need help.Seems like you would'nt .

Patricia22au, your statement:

“Sadly you do not have life experience to understand what I am saying,your ignorance would not have helped in this situation I can see ,I rest my case. may god help non english speaking persons who need help.Seems like you would'nt”

is rather, in itself, ignorant, unhelpful and slightly patronizing. Unlike you, I cannot comment on whether Spendocrat has any life experience, or is in fact ignorant, as I don’t know him in person. Judging by his posts, he appears to be reasonable and has not made any overly ridiculous claims.

I confess that I lack any life experience and is generally ignorant and at times retarded, from my understanding of the Bible, God looks at everyone equally, whether they are English speaking or not. He would not only help those who cannot speak English, but those who are very good at it too (yourself included).

I recall two little white girls who were wearing acrubras walking

past my house and my cat Ginger went out to greet them.

Ginger is a friendly pussy who is always on the look out for someone

to pat him.

Anyway out he went and instead of patting him they kicked him in the

guts and said 'bugger off ya smelly cat'.

Ginger ran off and was noticeably very upset.

I said to the girls "now that wasn't a very nice thing to do was it"

The older one of the two looked defiantly at me and after a while

responded by saying 'My Dad said that you blacks should not be

allowed to live in our neighbourhood and he reckons the government

probably gave you your house free”.

I didn’t know what to say, I was speechless.

All I could think of was -

• Did they kick Ginger because of me and my family?

• What had their father been saying about me and mine?

They walked past me and went on their way, looking backwards every

now and then with a look of pure contempt for me.

I felt angry but also very sad for them.

Thanks Rainier. Very apposite little story.

Any one interested in the issues raised here should definitely watch SBS at 7:30 PM tonight (Tuesday 30 January):

http://www.sbs.com.au/whatson/index.php3?id=1396
Blue Eyed: Indecently Exposed

Jane Elliot is an inconspicuous little old lady, but her workshops are astounding.

As a taster, check out her list of "typical statements" http://www.janeelliott.com/statements.htm

Patricia,
I agree with Spendocrat that your whole argument is based on assumptions.

Any parent would have taught their children to be aware of strangers so the kids acted appropriately by walking away.
When my kids were younger they probably would have reacted in a similar way.
Kids being scared of barking dogs is nothing new. It happens all the time. We can't protect kids from every little thing in life and if they were startled by a few barking dogs this would have taught them to be aware of dogs.

If the kids would have had to walk a fair distance, I would agree that an adult should have accompanied such young girls, but if it was just a few houses down the road it's fine to let them walk on their own.

Also, I don't know of any school in Australia that does not teach basic English. Are there in fact, primary schools that don't teach English?

Ranier,
it is very sad that there are people who teach their children to hate.
The link between animal abusers and abuse towards people has been established.

I'd find it very tempting to have a talk with these parents- they should know about their kids' terrible and abusive behaviour.
Otherwise these parents will remain deluded into thinking that their kids are perfect little angels.
Perhaps kids like these should be accompanied by an adult until they know how to behave in their community.

Reading these posts, I feel that a lot of assumptions have been made not only about the little girls, but also about where Patricia is coming from and what she is trying to communicate. The comments about her spelling ability were unnecessary and insulting.
However, I too am going to make an assumption. I am going to assume that she is concerned about the refusal of some people that come to Australia to become a part of it, ie to speak and read the language and the dangers that this presents. Whether we like it or not it is essential for everyone to understand and communicate. Whether it is reading signs that communicate danger or being able to communicate verbally when in trouble. My mother witnessed the distress of a woman unable to read or speak English when she boarded the wrong train. My mother put her in charge of the station attendant but the experience was very distressing for my mother as well as for the lady. I can only assume that Patricia and her nephew were distressed at the distress shown by the little girls. Personally, their ability to feel compassion and concern should be rewarded rather than censured.

My spelling error comment was clearly intended to be taken in good humour. Does anyone here remember humour? It's hardly as insulting as being called ignorant for stating a position.

I have found that my idea of humour is different from a lot of other people's idea of humour. I did not recognise humour in your post, maybe it is a communication problem? I thought that I communicated that I consider that the assumptions made about Patricia's ignorance or implicit racism are not reasonable either, and are also insulting since we don't know her. To make such a judgment is presumptuous. Taking her initial post at face value, I got the impression that she and her nephew are merely stating that it is important for newcomers to any country to be able to communicate because of the inherent dangers in being in a situation where they need assistance and cannot communicate it. Maybe it was unfortunate that Patricia mentioned headscarfs as this automatically labelled the children as being from a "certain" background, a background that fuels emotions.

I think you’re reaching. The question that should be asked is: Would Patricia have started the thread in the first place if the children were not wearing headscarfs? If they were white and did not look foreign, but still behaved in exactly the same manner (looking bewildered, not talking), would she not simply have considered them scared and quiet children? And not thought about their language or background at all? Who assumes a child doesn’t speak English, simply because they don’t say anything to you and run off? I sure don’t.

And this is what I mean by judgements. From this perspective, the headscarfs are entirely irrelevant to the discussion, UNLESS you are predisposed to making a judgement of people from a “certain” background, as you state. A quiet white child might only speak French, but if they don’t say anything, you don’t start to worry about it, because you have no basis on which to make this judgement. Similarly, in an ideal world, a headscarf wouldn’t change this non-judgemental assessment one bit.

Perhaps I am (reaching). However, my initial reaction to the thread was probably as a mother in that I do not like to see children distressed. It also came as a reaction to my mother's story. I also feel very strongly about the necessity of being able to communicate. I know the feeling of panic that I get when someone cannot understand me. I also consider the personal attack on Patricia about her spelling prowess as a hit below the belt and unnecessary. As for the assumptions made about her racism I felt that they were uncalled for and unhelpful. Overall, I would have liked I guess to have a discussion on the importance of ensuring the safety of children by enabling them to communicate. Patricia's story was anecdotal and subjective after all and should it be therefore summarily dismissed as a racism?

I never dismissed it as racism. I merely pointed out it was a mistake to make such assumptions. And she did make assumptions.

We obviously viewed her story in very different ways, which I guess is what a forum like this is all about.

Yeah, maybe the spelling error thing was unnecessary, but I still think I had a point. And trust me, I've copped alot worse from others. It helps to have a bit of a thick skin round these here parts.

Everyone makes assumptions and a lot have been made here (not least by me). Other posters I feel did dismiss Patricia's concerns as racism and that is unfortunate.
What is great is that we can view people's stories in different ways and agree to disagree, however my problem is that Patricia's concerns were taken on their surface value by some posters and a deeper debate did not ensue.
I don't know what your point was about her spelling errors, some geniuses can't spell well and it is not a sign of a lack of education nor of ignorance.
As for having a thick skin, I don't mind people challenging my views or my opinions for that matter, but I do mind personal attacks so I will probably never develop a thick skin as a result.

I'm with you Lizzie.

I'll just clarify my point about the spelling errors and say my goodbyes for the day.

The title of the thread is 'language problem'. I thought it might be somewhat amusing and relevant to comment on some (lets face it, quite basic) spelling errors, given patricia's concern was primarily about the grasp of our language in the first place. Yeah? Someone worries that the language isn't being learned, but they struggle with the language themselves?

It's known in comedy circles as a reversal. Delivery is difficult on an internet forum, you have to imagine the timing and inflection yourself. It wasn't meant to be cutting or insulting, nor was I implying any ignorance on patricia's part. It's just a little feather rustling, which I consider all part and parcel of a healthy, lively debate.

..yeah.

Night!

Oh good. Glad we've all made up.

Can we shoot the dog now?

;-)

It sounds weird but I have been left baby sitting kids who didn't speak English, even though they had been born here and their parents spoke English and I don't speak xxxxx.

Celivca - sorry about the spelling but I am doing this from memory not cut and paste. The medium of instruction in Australian classrooms is English but in some classes the teacher pauses for the material to be translated into another language.

I have taught university students who were born and educated in Australia who said that I was the first instructor they had spoken to. Now that's pretty damning.

Unlike Holland which has a fine remedial speech therapy program for primary school children who don't ennunciate their Dutch vowels correctly, we let whole communities shuffle by with a version of English. Greek-Australian sounds course but is clear but Vietlish or Chinlish are very hard to decipher because they have learnt English from Australians who don't ennunciate their ending consonants and Chinese is tonal so the consonants totally disappear.

Yes, Australia needs a common language of communication and we should teach all communities to speak it to a set standard so we can understand each other.

You know what stee is? city

Dear Billie

Please add to your list of funny accents to include the British, American, European, Kiwi accents….

If people are already trying to learn and communicate in English, do you need to be that critical on their accents? You might be a university language academic, but not everyone is that picky and worried. Is language not a continually evolving entity? I did not see you write in Shakespearean. And why don’t you provide a quick tutorial to Patricia to improve communication in this forum??

As to Lizzie, amazing to see how we all picked on different aspect of the post by Patricia. Lizzie you obviously thinks it is about Patricia’s concern of unintelligible kids roaming the streets of suburbia (an assumption that appears to be hypothetical, rather than based on the story at hand). You considered that “a deeper debate did not ensue”, a debate that you wish to control. Similar to the attitude you took when you first perceive of the little incident of the barking dog, you have again displayed a one-sided “I am always right” attitude. I thought it makes sense to first come to an agreement of what the debate is and there appears to be many perfectly valid discussion points of Patricia’s experience. And in deed Patricia has made an alarming amount of assumptions which you have simply taken them for granted.

Oh dear…pushing my views too forcefully, trying to control the debate and always thinking that I am right are very bad habits that I am trying hard to overcome. I apologise if that is how I came across. I will bear your comments in mind when I make other posts, Goku.

I thought Lizzie's approach was refreshingly diplomatic. I didn't see her trying to control anything.

Lizzie, you are just taking a strong stand on your belief, nothing wrong with that. I probably should have reviewed what I have written before posting it, apologies for saying you trying to control the direction of the debate.

Cheers.

That's OK Goku. Apology accepted. And thank you Spendocrat.

Thank you Lizzie for seeing the topic as it was intended. The children were speaking another language .Sorry if I upset readers who perhaps don't see the real world happening out side their computers.
My nephew could have just dismissed the children and not been concerned but he is a true caring and Kind person .
I am a sixth generation Australian,English is my mother tongue and how lucky I don't have to learn it,as I think it would be a hard language to learn , I have probably been on this earth longer
than most people here,...here I go assuming ...again.
I am just glad one person saw my post for what it was intended.
I have a great sense of humor and I care deeply for unfortunate people
caught up in our unstable world. thank you.

Well thats good to know Patricia, for a momment there I thought you might just be making this whole story up to suite a hidden agenda.

If you can speak three languages you're trilingual. If you can speak two languages you're bilingual. If you can speak only one language you're an Australian.