I thought that it might be interesting
to discuss the positive contributions of
Australian Muslims to possibly dispel
the misconceptions held by some people
in the wider community
and the negative media faced by Australian
Muslims.

This was inspired by a recent visit to the
Immigration Museum's current exhibit on,
"Australia's Muslim Cameleers."

I learned a great deal from the exhibit, and
it made me question - how much do people
actually know about Muslims in Australia?
Hence this thread.

According to the 2006 ABS Census the Muslim
population in Australia has grown from 21,000
in 1971 to 340,000 in 2006. The Census indicates
that nearly 40% were born in Australia (therefore
not all Australian Muslims are new arrivals).
And some families have lived here since the 19th
century and have made significant contributions to
Australia. The Census also said that
over 60% are under the age of 35.

What is also interesting is that there is a
higher percentage of Australian Muslims
with Bachelor and Post Graduate degrees compared
to the total population.

It's also interesting that Australian Muslims come
from around 70 diverse cultural backgrounds and
traditions and would prefer to be identified simply
as "Australians." That makes perfect sense as
Australia is a largely secular country and
religious affiliation is not necessarily an accurate
identifier of any citizen.

I would appreciate the contribution of posters to this
thread who actually have something positive to contribute.
Your inputs will be appreciated.

Here are some contributions of Australian Muslims
that I've come across:

1) Socio-Economic contribution to the Halal
Meat Industry, contributing around $5.0 billion
to the Australian economy and employing around
30,000 people.

2) Success of Muslim players in sports,
such as the AFL in Victoria.

3) Active involvement of Muslim women in the
police force, such as Victoria.

4) Donations to various charities, such as
$50,000 by the Muslim Community to the
Leukaemia Foundation in Queensland.

Australian Muslims have made a significant
contribution to Australian society over
the past 150 years.

I shall list more later.

Your opinions please?

Falafels.

I think only the MOST ignorant and prejudiced would suggest Muslims being ABSOLUTELY worthless to the Australian community.

My Doc is a hell of a nice bloke and an EXTREMELY competent physician. I believe he's Muslim as well.

[Deleted. Completely off topic. Poster suspended.]

Yes, Proxy and while the cameleers were doing that, Christian missionaries were abusing children entrusted to their care.

Pelly...that jibe at Proxy was most unfair.

Foxy is leading us up a silly path on the basis of a spurious assumption that people who criticize "Islam" are incapable of recognizing social or academic good contributed by Muslims.

The very fact that this is your underlying assumption is evidence of misguided bigotry. You don't allow...not even a little bit.. for the legitimate criticism of a faith as a set of ideas..(which is what occurs on this forum) rather than what does NOT happen here.. in that "Muslims" as a class of people are vilified.

Even in Proxy's wildest moments..his focus is on..."Islam" as an idea set.

Can you show me just one attack by Proxy (or me..from any time) on "Muslims" as a class of people?

I don't feel you can do this. So..why the red herring which is not relavent to the discussion climate and context here ?

We all know.. that people can make useful worthwhile contributions to society. after all.. look at the VW beetle... get my drift ?

Take off the cloak of self righteousness and learn to tackle ideas as ideas..and don't bury your head in the sand. (please)

Oh.. for those who might be remotely interested.. today I passed some very pleasant moments of conversation with a Pashtun Muslim at the place of my contract work.

I find it grossly insulting that some here seem to speak so much about 'fear and loathing....hate mongering' that they actually believe it.

If no one is condemning "Muslims" as a class, Foxy..why do you see the need to defend them?

Foxy the great thing about a democracy is that you do not have to be outstanding to be a citizen. A point exampled when U.S. Mafia boss Frank Costello was questioned by a senate committee. Asked what he had contributed to the community since he had immigrated to the U.S. He answered without hesitation "I paid my taxes". Thats all we have to do.
The Italian and the Greeks have contributed liberally as well, but there is no need to advertise the fact so as to give them credibility in regard to being good citizens.

What is the point to the thread, that not all Muslims are.....are what?
We brought them from historically troubled lands with the most alien and Dark Age customs that you could find as an opposite to the status quo and supplant it into a first world culture and the expectation was what? Harmony, get real, we have a sub culture that has grown to seventeen times it original size in thirty years. The Muslims have and will further change the character and face of Australia, as did the white settlers change the destiny of the Aboriginal peoples. All communities do good and all communities do bad, and the worst thing a community could do is to become a society within a society. We seem to have all that going on here, hence the need for the pro Muslim propaganda.

[Deleted.]

Using Foxy's logic..

a drug lord who

-Builds hospitals
-Builds schools
-Builds soccer pitches
-Builds churches
(with blood and drug money)

all for the poor of Medayin....(as Pablo Escobar did)

shows that "not all drug lords are bad" :)

But all drug lords are still "drug lords".

Not all COLUMBIANS are drug lords though...

The idea that a class of people are automatically aligned with either the worst or best of them is plain silly Foxy.. plain silly.

Dear Proxy and Al,

Kindly stick to the title of this
thread. If you are unable to do that,
find yourself another thread.

Al and Proxy
Please tell me how it is an inept analogy. You are quite quick off the mark in pointing out atrocities committed by Muslims but quite blinkered to those committed by other faiths.

The abuse of children by some Christian missionaries occurred despite the teachings of the Bible. That is why religion is a furphy, people will still make up their own minds about how they behave regardless of what they purport to be their moral or values framework.

We could be here forever if we cherry picked the Bible and Koran to pieces to prove a point. Not to repeat old arguments but they are valid: what of the Crusades and the various Inquisitions where the punishing and killing of heretics or the drowning of 'witches' was sanctioned by God. What about where God asks Abraham to kill his son to prove his love. Would you kill your child if you believed God asked it? What sort of God would ask this? Bush said God told him to invade Iraq.

Thankfully most of us don't judge all Christians on the basis of a text written centuries ago.

One child abuser does not represent Christianity, one terrorist does not represent Islam.

You provide an example of the criminal actions of two cameleers and hold that up to be validation for your anti-Islamic views. I merely pointed out a similar atrocious behaviour carried out by some Christians. I don't need to find a passage in the Bible that promotes child abuse, the sad fact is it happened. I don't need to find a passage in the Koran that promotes killing infidels, the fact is the vast majority of Muslims are not here in Australia killing infidels.

Note I said "some" Christians. The difference is you tar all Muslims with the same brush without allowing for individual responsibility which when is all said and done is what it all comes down to.

A very reasoned piece here outlining much of the historical context:

http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/jihad/kill_the_infidels.asp

As I've stated in my opening post,
Australian Muslims have made a significant
contribution to Australian society for
over the past 150 years. In the 16th and
17th centuries, for example, Macassan Merchants
from Indonesia traded harmoniously with
Indigenous Australians in Northern Australia.
Afghan cameleers, pearl divers from SE Asia,
Bosnian and Kosovar workers on the Snowy Mountain
Scheme, were among the early Muslim workers who
helped build Australia. Muslims have contributed
to the economic and physical infrastructure of
Australia.

Australian Muslims come from around 70 diverse
cultural backgrounds and traditions. And would
prefer to be identified simply as "Australians."

Not all Australian Muslim women wear the hijab.

Australian Muslims do not support terrorism.

These are facts that need to be remembered.
Just as we don't make assumptions about all
Italians having mafia connections. Or all
Columbians being drug-lords, and so forth.

Dear Pelly,

Thank You so much for your well reasoned
and valid arguments.

It is unfortunate that the mere mention
of the word Muslim will bring out an
irate reaction from certain people.

What strikes me the most is the enormous
ratio of words to substance. How they can
post heaps and leave behind almost nothing
except the impression of great vehemence.

Thanks Foxy. It really is just commonsense and rational from my POV.

Muslims like many other groups have contributed to Australia in terms of economic participation, education and charitable works.

I wish more Muslims would contribute to this site, to comment from their own personal experiences and to expand on some of the myths.

What is irksome is the irrational prejudice. Deal with the individual first eg. if there is a radical Imam spreading terrorist ideology, then deal with that person, rather than condemn the whole.

If we don't we become what we most despise.

Sorry the thread got a bit derailed Foxy

<<These are facts that need to be remembered.
Just as we don't make assumptions about all
Italians having mafia connections. Or all
Columbians being drug-lords, and so forth.>>

More inept analogies.

If there was a Mafia code of criminal ethics and an Italian claimed
allegiance to that code, then one could rightly condemn that person,
not for being an Italian, but for their allegiance to Mafia ideals.

By definition, Muslims claim allegiance to Islamic ideals.
By studying Islam (if you lot could be bothered) one discovers that
it is a supremacist, misogynist, violent "religion" that advocates
child marriage, slavery of non-Mohammedans, rape of slaves,
death to apostates and to all those who refuse to submit to it.
Terrorists Can Find Justification In The Koran For Their Every Act.
This is because Mohammed was the prototypical terrorist.

I am flabbergasted at the mental gymnastics that are required to
overlook Islam's virulent nature.

If I publicly advocated that:
-anybody who didn't believe in what I believed should be put to death,
-50 year old men should be allowed to have sex with their 9 year old brides,
-people who criticised my god should be killed
-etc, etc.
I would be rightly locked up.

You people astound me with your blase acceptance of Islamic peccadilloes.
You are blinded by your ideology.

Dear Pelly,

It's Thanks to posters such as yourself
that I'm still a part of this Forum.

I've been appalled many times by the
amount of prejudice frequently displayed
against an entire religious group on the
basis of the actions of a few extremists,
who hide behind religion to justify their
misguided cause.

For example, some of the Christian
religious groups
in the US - people like Randall Terry - who
preach hatred and advocate violence against
doctors who perform
abortions in the US - people would not condemn -
Christianity for the actions of a few fanatics.
And yet some people blame Islam -
for the actions of the few extremists.

As for the derailment of this thread.
My husband warned me that this will happen
in the light of the topic.

Hopefully, some Muslims will contribute as well
to this thread and give us a much broader picture
of their contribution.

I would love to hear from them.

Foxy, this is a brave thread to throw out there :)

You have to expect the anti-Islam comments from the regular site trolls though, even though the thread is about Muslims, not the religion of Islam as such.

Anyway, I would just like to comment on the many Muslim homes I have visited as a community nurse over the years.

The main thing that struck me was the incredible food they made, especially during Ramadan.

I don't really know what I was eating, but it all tasted great, and the sheer volume of different recipes the women made to celebrate the end of their fast was simply amazing.

The different foods and tastes brought to this country by all the different cultures make Australia the great culinary destination that it has become, because of multiculturalism.

The Muslim culture is no exception. Vive la difference!

[Deleted.]

I recall a similar debate about 10 years ago where it was deemed that we were going to be "swamped by Asians".

Remember them?

They don't integrate, they form ghettos, they don't respect our way of life, they have bizarre customs, they don't respect our women or our religion, they steal our welfare and so on.

We were also in fear of the Triad crime gangs who were allegedy already dominating the drug industry and were set to take over all organised crime.

Before them it was the Italians, Greeks and Europeans generally - right back to Federation (which was historically the result of anti-Chinese sentiments, not some grandiose vision of independence).

Immigration levels have likely increased since that time and not much has happened.

So what went wrong - or did something "go right"?

No, we just found somebody else to hate.

Proxy,
Would you like some equally disturbing quotes from the Torah and the Bible?

Muslims do not drink and they raise children who do not drink. This means that other Australians will not have to worry about them endangering the lives of others and pushing up insurance premiums through reckless behaviour on the roads and elsewhere.

And when people convert to Islam they stop drinking and do not find it difficult. So there is something there to be learned by the broader Australian community in light of the serious problems we face with alcohol and other drugs.

Prince Charles has also recently had something positive to say (and learn):

"June 11 2010

Prince Charles yesterday urged the world to follow Islamic ’spiritual principles’ in order to protect the environment.

In an hour-long speech, the heir to the throne argued that man’s destruction of the world was contrary to the scriptures of all religions – but particularly those of Islam.

He said the current ‘division’ between man and nature had been caused not just by industrialisation, but also by our attitude to the environment – which goes against the grain of ’sacred traditions’.

Charles, who is a practising Christian and will become the head of the Church of England when he succeeds to the throne, spoke in depth about his own study of the Koran which, he said, tells its followers that there is ‘no separation between man and nature’ and says we must always live within our environment’s limits."
http://muslimvillage.com/2010/06/11/follow-islamic-spiritual-principles-to-protect-the-environment-prince-charles/

Proxy,
you forgot Lambing flat against the Chinese and countless whitey attacks on indigenous peoples.
Your reasoning is in bad need of removing the eye patch and use of both eyes.

There is no doubt that Muslims have been demonised.Where is most of the world's oil? Which countries have invaded Muslim countries and now threaten Iran? In Afghanistan is drugs, and Turkmenistan just above oil and gas.It is Western Imperialism using the wedge of religion amd racism to justify the invasion of oil rich countries.

Dear Pelly

//Al and Proxy
Please tell me how it is an inept analogy. You are quite quick off the mark in pointing out atrocities committed by Muslims but quite blinkered to those committed by other faiths.//

Actually.... I've not pointed out 'any' atrocities carried out by Muslims here. All I've done is point out something about Foxies agenda and how it should be scrutinized.

//"Thankfully most of us don't judge all Christians on the basis of a text written centuries ago."//

Please..OH PLEASE DO..do..DO judge us on what was written centuries ago :) that would be one of my wildest nicest dreams come TRUE...

We could discuss what the scriptures REALLY do say rather than what is assumed they say.

I will happily be judged on "For God so LOVED the world..that He gave His only Son..that whoever believes in Him will not Perish but have everlasting life"...

YES YES :) judge me judge me!

2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. II Cor 4:2ff

YES YES.. judge away to your hearts content :)

44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. Acts 2

YEP.. most happy to be judged on all that.

OH wait.. you might like to judge us also one some of the darkers stuff :)

"If they (wives) disobey you.. BEAT them" 4:34

Oops - wrong book :) so..don't judge us on that one.. judge the other mob.

cont.....

Ok..Let's look at some 'contributions' of Muslims.

Ahmad Fahrour.. aah he was CEO of NAB..and while there he insitgated '
Sharia compliant loans (no interest) for Muslims.. now *that* has to be a positive right ?

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/eoa1995250/s8.html

Or.. in order to facilitite 'ritual obligations' for Muslim students at RMIT.. the Islamic society went to great lengths to obtain exclusive control of the multi faith prayer room... well done !

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/eoa1995250/s8.html

As I said.. 'people' make contributions... it should not be linked to their faith.. unless one wishes that 'faith' to be scrutinised.

Foxhole.. r u reading ?:)

Thanks to all the positive contributors
to this thread of mine thus far.
As I stated in my opening post - I went
to the exhibit that's currently showing
at the Immigration Museum here in Melbourne
called, "Australia's Muslim Cameleers:
Pioneers of the Inland 1860s - 1930s."
And found it interesting. I went home and
thought about the negative media that is
often faced by Australian Muslims, the impact
of world events, the misconceptions in the
wider community that exist, and the conflicts
within Australia (such as the Cronulla riots),
and I thought that it might prove a worthwhile
discussion to offer another perspective up
as a topic on this Forum, instead of negativity,
something positive, simply as a change.

Regrettably, some posters don't seem capable
of contributing anything in that vein - which
I feel says more about them than the subject
under discussion.

Many Muslims have contributed so much to this
country, apart from the early work of the
Afghan cameleers in NSW and Western Australia,
there's contribution by people such as Iman
Sabri Samson, in building communities in
Tasmania, the importance of women's groups in
providing programs like the Self-Esteem, Identity,
Leadership, and Community (SILC) program in Victoria.
The Islamic Council of Australia tries to build
bridges between Muslims and general communities.
Waleed Aly, the famous lawyer, academic, and author,
who's written many books on the topic has added
greatly to the understanding of Muslims in this
country, and the list goes on.

Great idea for a thread, Foxy. I agree that Muslims have made many positive contributions to Australia, starting as you say with the 'Afghan' cameleers in the 19th century.

<< Regrettably, some posters don't seem capable
of contributing anything in that vein - which
I feel says more about them than the subject
under discussion. >>

Indeed. As suzeonline suggested, they'll be attracted like flies, but I think that reasonable readers are well aware of who the haters are and of their intransigence. Their contributions thus far only reinforce their status as bigots.

To All Positive Posters,

I've found a very interesting website
written by an Australian Muslim that I feel
expresses things beautifully, if you
have the time, it's well worth a read:

http://australiansall.com.au/archive/post/a-reflection-by-an-australian-muslim/

Some of the self-styled “positive posters” above are dangerously delusional.
They wax lyrical about beautifully expressed Islamic sentiments on a website
which expresses as one of its founding principles:
“Acceptance that the right of free speech and a free press does not include the right…to denigrate a religion.”
Thus their goals become directly aligned with the Organisation of the Islamic Conference,
whose long-term objective is to criminalise the criticism of Islam globally.
The “positive posters” and the Islamists make for very interesting bedfellows indeed!
They would return us to the age of heresy trials.
Hopefully “positive posters” would not sanction death for blasphemy as do their fellow travellers,
in accordance with their holy book and extant shariah law.
Perhaps pecuniary punishment combined with a public renunciation of their statements
would satisfy our 21st century mediaevalists.
Be on heightened alert fellow believers in freedom.
The Islamists are here demanding that their religion not be criticised.
The dhimmis are already here paving the way for this to become a reality.

The collective contribution of Muslims engaged in the provision of Shariah-compliant finance is gaining recognition in the form of government initiatives to ensure tax laws do not discriminate agains this form of finance:

From the Assistant Treasure, Nick Sherry
"The Rudd Government firmly believes that Islamic finance can increase the depth and sophistication of our financial markets.

Australia is well placed to take advantage of the opportunities resulting from the growth in Islamic finance. "

The speech goes on to list the benefits of Shariah-Compliant finance.

http://ministers.treasury.gov.au/DisplayDocs.aspx?doc=speeches/2010/019.htm&pageID=005&min=njsa&Year=&DocType=

I am sure that many neo Nazi groups could also point to the positive contributions of Nazis. This is a very silly or sinister exercise.

no doubt this lying muslim woman and the many muslims who wanted to be violent because of her lies is only a 'small' minority.

http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3528:conning-the-world-veiling-the-truth-with-bedazzling-burkas&catid=203&Itemid=59

I should have explained why SC finance would be beneficial to the Australian community
"The main features of Sharia compliant lending are:
• the prohibition against riba – the paying or charging of interest
• the prohibition against investing in certain assets or industries – for example alcohol and gambling
• the prohibition of complex financial investments having elements of speculation or uncertainty – the underlying
assets must be clearly identifiable." http://www.aetlimited.com.au/NR/rdonlyres/0E1A14EC-889D-4F5F-A662-639E3455D762/0/AETCT5194Discussionpapershariacompliantlend_web.pdf

An example that is close to home: buying a home. Instead of paying interest, under one form of SC finance one takes a minority equity stake in the property. eg. 10% of the equity is supplied by the household and 90% by the 'bank'. Over time the household purchases more equity until they finally have 100% ownership. In the meantime the household rents the premises and the rent is paid to the owners. The owners being the household and 'bank', they share the proceeds of the rental income in proportion to their equity shares (eg. if after 5 years the household has acquired 50% stake then only half the rent is paid to the 'bank').

if the household cannot or does not want to go through with the full purchase, then the property is sold and the proceeds from the sale are distributed between the 'bank' and household according to their equity shares (e.g if the household has 50% of the equity then they would receive 50% from the sale of the property).

for me this is fairer and just, not to mention being a more attractive option than a bank loan with a mortgage that runs the risk of default and FULL repossession by the bank. Hence the potential benefit for the broader Australian community.

I forgot to mention that among the major
projects in which Afghan cameleers were involved
was the development of the rail link between
Port Augusta and Alice Springs.

The "GHAN" train was so named in homage to
the exploits of the Afghan cameleers.

Their presence was equally important to the
development of the overland telegraph line
between Darwin during 1870 and 1872 and
eventually linked Australia to London via
India.

It may be of interest to know that Miss Australia 2006,
(she represented Australia in the Miss World 2006
competition) was a Muslim - Sabrina Houssami.

In the 1920s and 1930s Albanian Muslims were
accepted along with Bosnian Muslims.
The first mosque was built in Melbourne in 1963.
Bosnian Muslims established various communities
throughout Melbourne (notably Carlton) in 1957 - 1961.

Between 1967 - 1971 - over 10,000 Turks settled in
Australia. Most settled in Melbourne and Sydney.

In the 21st century Muslims from more than 70 countries
settled in Australia.

It's difficult to make assumptions about them as they
are fragmented even further by being the most racially,
ethnically, culturally, and linguistically diverse
communities in Australia.

Also the common misconception among Australian non-Muslims
is that Islam is new to Australia. This is not the case.
Muslims have been living peacefully in Australia for
decades.

The mistake that many people make is they assume that
the recent migratory waves of people from the Middle East
and North Africa, South East Asia, the Balkans of Europe,
India sub-continent and most recently Sub-Sahara Africa -
that all these peoples are Muslims.

Not all people from these regions in fact are Muslims.

For example most Lebanese Australians, and Middle Eastern
Australians are in fact Christians, and most Australians with
origins in the Indian sub-continent are Hindu, Christian, or
Sikh, and most African Australians are Christians.

As I wrote earlier, Australia is a largely secular
country and religious affiliation is not necessarily an
accurate identifier of any Australian.

Certainly not of ones who come from so many different
racial, ethnic, cultural, and linguistic communities.

[Deleted]

<< But here on OLO, I'm just a hater. >>

Finally Proxy posts something with which I agree.

[Deleted]

Foxy, "It may be of interest to know that Miss Australia 2006,
(she represented Australia in the Miss World 2006
competition) was a Muslim - Sabrina Houssami."

You are over-simplifying unnecessarily and not giving credit to Sabrina's Hindu-Indian mum and her obviously flexible dad.

http://www.usyd.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=1068

Sabrina's freedom and bright future come choosing the right parents: flexible, adaptable, caring and above all, not fundies. Is she the exception to the rule? Maybe so and that is why she is noteworthy.

"Isn't it funny though?
If I were saying this in a mosque in the Middle East (or Australia?),
I'd be a hero."

A Muslim saying those things would be considered a heretic, where-ever they were. To illustrate why, in 628 C.E. Prophet Muhammad (s) granted a Charter of Privileges to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai. It consisted of several clauses covering all aspects of human rights including such topics as the protection of Christians, freedom of worship and movement, freedom to appoint their own judges and to own and maintain their property, exemption from military service, and the right to protection in war.

This is the English translation:

QUOTE This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

No compulsion is to be on them.

Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.

No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.

Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.
The Muslims are to fight for them.

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).ENDQUOTE (wikipaedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Catherine's_Monastery,_Mount_Sinai)

This can be considered another major contribution that Muslims can bring to Australia: a heritage of tolerance.

grateful,
The Holy Prophet (FH) was such a wonderful man, in fact the perfect example according to the Holy Book (33:21).
When faced with life's more difficult decisions, I like to reflect on what He would do in my circumstances.
I always turn to His example for help at those times.
I find that the texts of Islam serve as a wonderful guide during those difficult times.
The University of Southern California has an authoritative guide,
in its Centre for Muslim-Jewish Engagement.
Perhaps you too can find solace there, as I have done.
The following link provides links to the USC's answers to life's difficult questions:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/WWMD.htm

Dear Proxy,

You are on the wrong thread.

This is a thread whose subject matter
is "Positive Contributions of Australian
Muslims."

I want you to leave it please, as you
obviously are not capable of contributing.

And if you dare to bring up the subject
of "Free Speech," then I refer you to
the following website:

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=2893

"There is free speech and then there is hate inducing
vilification."

I've put up with you trying to derail my thread
through several posts - now BACK OFF YOU TROLL!

Go rant on your own thread - leave mine alone!

And Graham if you're reading any of this -
do something please - this guy's behaviour should
not be tolerated! He adds nothing to the discussion
except repeating the same old phrases with
malicious intent - its called "Spamming" and is
usually unacceptable on most reputable Forums.

I've had enough of it - he's a troll - plain and simple!
He does it to bait or provoke users into responding.
OK - I wasn't going to respond - I've ignored him
for as long as I could - but honestly, one can only
tolerate so much!

I understand how you feel.
It must be hard keeping your lip buttoned in the library all day.
A girl's gotta cut loose some time and you know I can take it.
Get it out of your system.
I don't mind.
I'm a tolerant kinda guy.

Hi Foxy,

First let me express my (belated) gratitude for your initiative and I will do what i can for it be successful.

I was brought up in a atheist household, but have adopted Islam as my way of life, so i'm always keen to see Islam portrayed accurately. I had a typical Australian upbringing, which included a lot of parties and booze, and so when someone asks me what is the "positive contribution" of Muslims i may put a bit more emphasis on what is important for children, their upbringing and development of character. I would place more emphasis on what the religion can offer, which is more in line with the contribution of Waleed Aly (although with far less eloquance and erudition) than Sabrina (who is much better looking!).

What made me mention these things is Cornflower's comments on the Muslim Miss Australia:

"Sabrina's freedom and bright future come choosing the right parents: flexible, adaptable, caring and above all, not fundies. Is she the exception to the rule? Maybe so and that is why she is noteworthy."

It struck me how much i have changed. I would have said something like this in my pre-Islamic days, but these days i guess Cornflower would call me a fundy :-).

My main point is that this sort of dialogue can be challenging in part because people have their views on what is and is not a "positive contribution" and they are not always the same. I think an acknowledgement of this and preparedness to take on board these differences would go a long way to a very constructive dialogue.

Another thing. I'm a lapsed Collingwood supporter and i have not been following AFL for quite a while. Do you (or anyone else) know the names of the Muslim AFL players that you refered to in your first post?

Dear Cornflower,

Thanks for your input.

Is Sabrina Houssami the norm in Muslim terms?
Sabrina Houssami is not the norm in anybody's
terms. However, she does regard herself as a
Lebanese Australian and a Muslim. Her mother Alka,
is Hindu-Indian and her father Ahmed is Lebanese
Muslim. As author Shakira Hussein tells us:
"The beaut thing is secularism runs in the bloodstream
of many Australian Muslims. They have absorbed its
language and its way of seeing the world. They frame
their claims of belonging to the Australian society
in secular terms."

I forgot to add in my previous post on Sabrina Houssami
that apart from being a former Miss World Australia as
well as Miss World Asia Pacific, she was also the second
runner up to Miss World 2006.

Having a loving, caring home, is important to us all
regardless of our religious affiliation, isn't it?

Dear Grateful,

Thank You so much for being so open and honest and
sharing your background with us on this Forum.
I greatly enjoyed reading your post. It was so
positive. Football is a great melting pot in
which a common goal unites the players and the fans
of different racial, religious, and economic backgrounds.
There are several Muslim AFL players that come to
mind. Sedat Sir (Bulldogs) is a Muslim Turk. Then there's
the famous Bachar Houli (Essendon). Robin Nahas (Richmond
Tigers), just to name a few.

Bachar Houli, is of course a primary figure both in his
community and his country.

grateful,

I'm positively interested in how an atheist can "adopt Islam as (their) way of life".
May I ask you a few questions?
Do you believe that Archangel Gabriel brought messages from Allah to Mohammed?
Do you believe that those messages are the eternal truths contained in the Koran?
Do you believe that the world will ultimately unite under Islam, Insha'Allah?
Do you believe that it is not gravity but the will of Allah which causes objects to fall to the earth?
Do you believe that if Allah so wished the above process could be suspended or reversed?
Do you believe that 9 year old Aisha was 52 yo Mohammed's favourite wife?
Do you believe in the beheading by Mohammed of the 400-900 Jews of the Banu Qurayza tribe?
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Banu_Qurayza
Do you believe Mohammed was a man of peace?
Do you believe that Mohammed was the perfect example?
Do you believe that sons and daughters should receive equal shares of inheritance, in contradiction of Islamic law?
Are you a Muslim because you enjoy the rituals?
Are you a Muslim because it fulfils a sense of spirituality which atheism cannot?
Are you a Muslim because you believe everything contained in the Koran, Hadith, Sunna, Sharia law, etc?
Do you think it is encumbent on Muslims to study the Koran, Hadith, Sunna, Sharia law, etc, to see what they really say?

Yours positively,
Proxy

Gee Foxy,

You really kicked over a rock here and look at what's some scuttling out from underneath.

For the last 7 years Muslims have organised meals for the homeless on a monthly basis in Sydney. The main organiser of this, and other projects, is Afroz Ali, of Al-Gazzali centre.

Here are some photos: http://www.alghazzali.org/gallery.php?event=cp

By the way, for those who may be interested in meeting some young, and not so young, Muslims i couldn't think of a better way of doing so than sharing a Saturday afternoon cooking and the evening distributing the food to the homeless.

Foxy, "Sabrina Houssami is not the norm in anybody's terms"

To the contrary it is the norm in Australia and in the West that women have choice and Sabrina was exercising that choice. She does not allow a fundamentalist religion to rule her.

You mentioned Shakira Hussein. Shakira is the first to say that Muslim women face a range of challenges within their communities, ranging from gender violence to lack of formal community representation. That is one of the reasons why she saw the to-do over burqas as a diversion from those more important issues. As Shakira says too, Muslim women have trouble making themselves heard.

This is why Sabrina's courage and independence in making her own choices in life are to be applauded, along with her obvious willingness to speak her mind - good for her! However Sabrina's example also shows that young women and young men first need freedom from fundamentalism in the home to make the best of themselves.

Thank-you Foxy for the names. i didn't realise.

Also, how could we forget Hazen El-Masri. Here are some photos of his last game: http://www.smh.com.au/multimedia/sport/el-masris-finale/20090830-f3x5.html

His bio:

Hazem El Masri (born 1 April 1976) is a Lebanese-Australian retired professional rugby league footballer of the 1990s and 2000s. An Australia and Lebanon international, and New South Wales State of Origin representative winger, he played his entire club football career with the Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs with whom he won the 2004 NRL Premiership. An accurate goal-kicker, in 2009 (his final season in the NRL) El Masri took the record for the highest-ever point scorer in premiership history and for a record sixth time was the League's top point scorer for the season. He primarily played on the wing, but he has also played at fullback.

El Masri is a self-identified devout Muslim.[1] He is widely respected for his community work with young people, winning the NRL's Ken Stephen Award in 2002. The award recognises players who contribute to the betterment of their community away from rugby league.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazem_El_Masri

Foxy, the article you posted by Ali Roude was an informative detailed explanation of the Surah 9:5 verse of the Qur’an. Particularly the history of the word “infidel” and its original intended application. You might already know, but it’s the same with the word “fundamentalism” which was originally coined to describe American Christian extremists. These Christian Purists promote the onset of WW3 which they see as the Biblical Apocalypse and the Rapture Prophecy in which Jesus Christ will descend from heaven on a cloud and take all the Jews to heaven before God destroys the earth. They believe that because they have supported Jews and especially the State of Israel that Jesus will also favour them and they too will ascend to heaven.

Of the 3 Abrahamic faiths, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, it was Islam that was first arrived in Australia, approximately 200 years prior to the arrival of Judaism and Christianity. Muslim Malaccan traders/fishermen arrived and according to expert anthropological examinations of gravesites in Northern Australia some of those Muslims stayed in Northern Australia, marrying local Australians and starting families. The Malaccans introduced cloth for clothing the naked Aboriginals and the dugout canoe with outriggers, but it is not known if they had proselytised Islam, some maybe.

It’s interesting that Christians (more so American Xian’s) continue to push the mythical Judeo-Christian bond, an irritant that Jews find most offensive as the two faiths couldn’t be further apart. Islam has more in common with Christianity with much of Jesus’ teachings contained in the Qur’an but the Muslim’s don’t bestow divinity on Jesus for to them he was just a man the same as Mohammad. For Jews and Muslims to teach that Jesus is a God is a blasphemy most heinous punishable by death.

In the 12th century Ottoman Empire the Beni-Merines, a tribe of Muslim Arabic Moors of Moroccan Berber heritage, introduced “their” Merino sheep to the Iberian Peninsula (Spain, Portugal). The name Merino is derived from the Beni-Marine people. Introduced to Australia the Merino would be responsible for Australia’s early fortunes “off the Muslim bred Merino sheep’s back”.

Foxy, "Football is a great melting pot in which a common goal unites the players and the fans of different racial, religious, and economic backgrounds."

That is true and at least 50% of supporters are women if membership numbers of clubs are any guide.

For anyone who is wondering, a football is made from leather not pig skin. AFL leather footballs are Sherrin brand and are made in Australia, however I think the leather comes from India.

http://www.sherrin.com.au/football/index.html

The example of Sabrina Houssami is a good one, because she embodies the antithesis to the stereotypical subservient, burq-clad, fundamentalist Muslim woman who the Islamophobes would have us believe is typical of Muslims in Australia. Most Muslims I've known in Australia are relatively secular like her, although not as attractive and intelligent, of course.

Also, grateful seems to be a good example of a non-stereotypical Australian Muslim who is certainly making some positive contributions to this thread.

[Deleted]

Dear Rache, Cornflower, Grateful, Westralis, CJ,

I'm truly overwhelmed by your positive inputs
into this thread. I've read them all, and am
grateful that there's so much food for thought
It just goes to show what I've always believed
people may have different religious identities,
but we are alike in so many other ways as human
beings and I've always felt that it is arrogant
to limit our discussions to a "them" and "us"
category.

Dear Proxy,

Please stop it!

I had heard of this bizarre, emerging alliance between the left and Islamists,
but from a rational perspective I couldn't believe it would happen.
Who would have thought?
An alliance between feminists and homophiles on the one hand
and misogynists and the death to homosexuals brigade on the other.
Nevertheless, we are seeing it played out before our very eyes.
The only connection I can see is a deep totalitarian streak.
On the other hand there is certain a symbiosis with respect to their individual objectives.
The left, like the Islamists, have a utopian world view.
However, while the leftists envision an egalitarian, multicultural paradise,
the Islamists see global peace as a result of everyones submission to Allah.
So both sides view the other side as integral to achieving their goals.
Anything which threatens those goals is unwelcome to both parties in this alliance.
Anybody who questions their respective orthodoxies is a heretic.

This goes some way toward explaining the unpopularity of Ayaan Hirsi Ali with the left.
One the one hand, she is:
black,
articulate,
intelligent,
attractive,
female,
of Islamic heritage,
secular,
pro-homosexual,
and, most importantly, a victim.

I hear you saying...
"What more does she need to be every leftist's heroine?"

Unfortunately, she is also anti-Islamic.

Having suffered female genital mutilation as a young girl
and escaping an arranged marriage as a young woman
and now being the subject of a death fatwa
Ayaan Hirsi Ali has alienated herself from leftists by coming out and criticising Islam.
Now both sides just wish she could be made to shut up.
http://neveryetmelted.com/2010/06/12/the-strange-animosity-of-the-left-toward-hirsi-ali/

cont'd ...

I just came across this website that I
thought might be of interest to everyone:

http://clpmag.org/article.php?article=Down-Under-the-Veil_160

Foxy

An alternative title for this thread could be "Spot the Bigots".

Surely people who cannot say a single positive thing about a huge group of people should have their posts automatically deleted for not playing to the theme of this thread?

I fully concur with all that has been contributed by Grateful, Examinator, Pelican, CJ and any I have missed.

:)

I just have to do this, before Celivia gets to it:

The GODWINS LAW award for this topic goes to.......

Drum roll......

Runner:

>>> I am sure that many neo Nazi groups could also point to the positive contributions of Nazis. This is a very silly or sinister exercise.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 12 June 2010 2:08:23 PM <<<

Severin,

An alternative title for this thread could be "Spot the Leftist Relativists".

The GODWINS LAW award for this topic goes to.......

Drum roll......

ALGOREisRICH
for his post
<<We all know.. that people can make useful worthwhile contributions to society.
after all.. look at the VW beetle... get my drift ?>>
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Friday, 11 June 2010 5:54:30 PM
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3716#90058

This makes ALGOREisRICH the winner,
as his post of
Friday, 11 June 2010 5:54:30 PM

is before runner’s post of
Saturday, 12 June 2010 2:08:23 PM

although I’m sure that in leftist land this will be disputed,
I mean,
Einstein taught that time is relative,
dontcha know?
Time means different things to different people,
depending on the individual and their culture.
Well at least that’s my opinion,
which is just as valid as any other opinion,
like,
really.
So if runner’s post was before ALGOREisRICH’s post for you,
then it was.
Both points of view are equally valid in leftist land.
besides, you said it first,
although that is merely a matter of opinion.

Proxy

Well that's what I get for not bothering to read AGiR's posts - too much with the hate and the rant to waste time on, whereas as Runner wins on brevity.

Now, do you have any positive to say about anyone? By anyone I mean, Muslims, Lefties, Greenies, Women, Homosexuals, small "l" liberals, single mothers, Men who have a different opinion to you?

Or do none of the above ever contribute anything positive to Australian Culture?

Hmmmm?

[Deleted for abuse. Poster suspended for 24 hours.]

Proxy
How does a left wing relativist differ from a right wing relativist within the framework of your conservative ideology? Are all those working class Christians who vote on the Left also relativists? Are atheist right wingers absolved purely on the basis of their political leaning?

I confess I don't get you at all. I have great faith that there are many right wingers who do not demonise an entire religion based on the actions of a few radicals.

This is why I find dogmatic religious types scary regardless of what religion they subscribe to. There is lacking an earnest desire to integrate with, and care about those who might believe or think differently

Foxy this is from that article you posted "down under the veil"
>> “This scarf is my identity and I am peaceful with it”, says Mahboba Rawi, 38,<<

There is the issue right there; the scarf is her identity, and a visual display of her difference to the non Muslims. It is akin to draping yourself in rosary beads and crosses so you can be identified as a Christian at a hundred paces.
As for the Cronulla riots, or more factually described, one group of young idiots fighting another group of young idiots, except for some right wing bozos they were all teens. Hardly a culture vs culture uprising.
When I was a kid and the western suburbs was filled with Anglo Aussies there were troubles at the beaches in regard to the local kids and the westy kids (cops came regularly). Granted not on the scale of Cronulla, but that comes down to the mobile phone.

They were not Aussie priding it the month before the "riot", and not a lot has gone on since the "riot". This nations culture is not like the U.S. who "flag wave" at every public gathering, big or small, our culture is more laid back, we don't fly the flag in each other’s faces unlike Mahboba Rawi, 38, who views it as her identity, her flag not ours.

We are being socially engineered with a credo that automatically bestows blame on the majority, and positively discriminates for the minority against majority rule.

Dear SOG,

Your post reminded me of a paragraph I
read in a Sydney newspaper decades ago:

"The heritage of every Australian: the right
to be exactly the same as everybody else...
It's not easy to win this position in a
community like Hurstfield. From time to time,
you feel like speaking out about things,
saying something different for a change, until
you realize - sensibly - that it's a lot easier
to make yourself like something you really hate
rather than say you hate it and have everybody
go crooked on you."
(O. Smith)

How does this comment present Australians?
Do you think it is still true today?

Dear Proxy,

Thank You for sharing your interest in Ayaan Hirsi Ali
with the rest of us. Most of us have
read her biographical works when they
were first published.
However, she's not an Australian,
and irrelevant to this topic. I don't understand
your post, the point that you were trying to make
and what her experiences have to do with the
topic here, which is the positive contributions of
Australian Muslims. However, seeing as you
did express an interest in her, may I, as a librarian,
suggest that you read, her books. "The Caged Virgin,"
and "Infidel," instead of posting off topic on this
thread.

You may also enjoy reading, "La Prisonniere," by Malika
Oufkir, "Wild Swans," by Jung Chang, and "Bitter Winds,"
by Harry Wu.

There are many biographical works out there for you
to enjoy. Including of course the books of Waleed Aly,
which may prove to be educational for you. Perhaps
you could start your own thread on famous people.
Or better still join a book-club at your local library.

And might I suggest you read the Koran, the Hadith and the Sunnah.
While you're about it you could brush up on some Sharia Law.
Having observed you however, I would suggest that you might be in danger
of converting to Islam if you became too exposed to it, like poor grateful.
What I don't understand is how you can maintain this dichotomy between Muslims and Islam.
You must be smart enough to know that what I say about Mohammed is true.
ie that he was a murdering rapist and paedophile,
After all, it is all recorded in the Koran, etc.
And I can understand how dupes like grateful could be sucked in by the exotic romance (to them) of Islam.
I can also understand how people born into Islam as a cultural thing stay with it,
given all they would lose if they rejected it.
What I can't understand is how an educated person who has access to the facts,
can gloss over them as if they have no relevance.
How you can maintain this disconnect between reality and fantasy.

GINXY..I swear.. if I meet you in person I'll give you the biggest lovingest hug you ever had :) *I've missed you* :)

Grateful.. if you consider discrimination based on religious identity a 'positive' aspect of SC finance..go right ahead.. but don't be surprised when you find me outside the NAB declaring it's illegality:)

I remind you.. the "Equal Opportunity Act" is very clear.

A positive contribution of a Muslim?

I HAVE one..

It was when my nominal shia buddy from Gym told me he drinks and doesn't mind a munch of a pork roast :)

Oh..ANOTHER.. when the Muslim bloke from my wifes work..gave her a nice hug when parting from a social gathering.
(OH.. his wife also accepted a cuddle from me)

There foxy.. happy ?

Very good Boazy. You acknowledge that there are secular Muslims who are good neighbours. We're getting somewhere.

Now I'd like to see you pull your mate Proxy up on on his incessant vilification of Muslims.

Mind you, I won't hold my breath.

CJ Morgan,

<<secular Muslims>>
An interesting concept.
Please explain.

<<Now I'd like to see you pull your mate Proxy up on on his incessant vilification of Muslims.>>
Please show me where I have once vilified Muslims.
My gripe is with Islam.

Proxy: << Please show me where I have once vilified Muslims. >>

<< By definition, Muslims claim allegiance to Islamic ideals.
By studying Islam (if you lot could be bothered) one discovers that
it is a supremacist, misogynist, violent "religion" that advocates
child marriage, slavery of non-Mohammedans, rape of slaves,
death to apostates and to all those who refuse to submit to it. >>

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3716#90070

That's just once, in this thread. If I could be bothered, there's plenty more.

Also, of course there are secular Muslims, just like there are secular Christians, Jews etc. It's only the fundies of any religion who can be a problem to others.

CJ.. see proxy's last post

I've NEVER EVER denied there are nice secular muslims.. that's never been my argument.

Foxy.. you said:

It just goes to show what I've always believed
people may have different religious identities,
but we are alike in so many other ways as human
beings and I've always felt that it is arrogant
to limit our discussions to a "them" and "us"
category.

Yet by establishing this thread.. you are infact emphasizing THEM..and US.. I guess you don't even realize that from your side of the gateway to the twighlight zone :)

Grateful.. you need help.. If you want to open a thread "Help me" I'll happily do that for you.

SEVERIN if you read my posts you might see that there is zero 'hate' in them :) (not for people anyway)

Yesterday I had a long and cordial discussion with a Muslim missionary at the MindBodySpirit Festival. We examined some Quran verses and discussed Christian issues. He later came to our stand and we continued the discussion.. (home ground advantage :) and he left with an expression of deep appreciation.

I guess I must have disguised the 'hate' eh :)

Boaz, see my last post.

Also, while you may not deny that there are "nice secular Muslims", it hasn't stopped you from vilifying them:

<< a) He is a Muslim.
b) As such he is obliged to work toward the creation of an Islamic state.
c) If that Islamic state ever comes to be, Foxy would get her throat cut if she insulted Muhammad. >>

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3683#88955

Secular Muslims are those who are disobedient or ignorant to the teachings of their prophet. Secular Christians is an oxymoron. Mr Rudd is a fine example of a 'secular Christian'

Dear Proxy,

It is because I am an educated person ...
and I do have the facts that I am able
to see that religious affiliation is not
necessarily an accurate identifier of any
person.

You have not been reading any of my posts on
this thread - or they haven't penetrated
- otherwise you couldn't possibly
behave in the disgraceful manner that you are
on this thread. It's better to hide your ignorance
then to display it so openly here.

Most Muslims, Western or otherwise, lack the
Arabic language skills to read the relevant texts.
And Australian Muslims come from around 70 diverse
cultural backgrounds and traditions. They are fragmented
further by being the most racially, ethnically,
culturally and linguistically diverse community in
Australia. Yet you insist that they all think alike.

Lebanese, Albanians, Malays, Arabs, Turks, Yugoslavs,
Indians, Pakistanis, Afghans, South Africans, Somalians,
Burmese, Bosnians, Cypriots, Muslims from Kosovar,
all think and believe identically?

And you question my reality?

Do take my advice and take out the book,
"Islam in Australia," by Abdullah Saeed, from your local
library. Professor Saeed is Associate Professor and
Head of the Arabic and Islamic Studies Program at the
Melbourne Insitute of Asian Languages and Societies,
University of Melbourne.

No, I won't be converting to
any other religion. I was raised as a Roman
Catholic, and I will die a Roman Catholic.
What religion are you?

Dear Al,

Keep trying - hopefully, you will get there.

I will once again ask both Al and Proxy
to either contribute to the subject of
this thread if they wish to post, or
leave the thread. This thread is NOT
about Islam. It is about the positive
contributions of Australian Muslims.

If you continue with your off topic
rants then I shall have to recommend
your posts for deletion. Because you
are breaking the rules of this Forum.

Mahboba Rawi, the sister mentioned in Foxy's article, runs a charity for Afgan woman and children. In fact she has been been helped by a number of non-Muslims and gained prominance 7 or so years ago when she appeared a number of times on national TV describing the dire situation in Afganistan. She is Australian, a noble example and deserves our respect.

The following is taken from the Home-page of her charity Mahbooba's Promise:

Who We Are
Mahboba's Promise is an Australian non-profit voluntary organisation dedicated to the women and children of Afghanistan. Mahboba's Promise was founded by Mahboba Rawi, herself a refugee from Afghanistan, now an Australian citizen.

How We Work
Being small and having Mahboba’s knowledge of the language and culture, the organisation has been able to respond quickly and with flexibility to meet the needs of widows and children disenfranchised by decades of war and civil unrest.

What We Do
We work with widows and children to improve education, offer vocational training and establish them as self sufficient. We have started schools for girls in areas where they had no educational opportunities. Primary health care in rural areas and provision of clean drinking water are among the many other projects undertaken over the last few years.

http://www.mahbobaspromise.org/content.cfm?id=1611&menulink=466&subid=0

Oh dear, foxy! My heart goes out to you at the derailing of this well-intentioned thread. I find so many of the things that have been said abhorrent, not to mention one-eyed.

Sadly, there is little I can contribute. I've had a sheltered suburban life, spent largely in Catholic schools (both as a student and as a teacher). I have met and engaged with very few Muslims and, in parochial old Townsville, I don't think I'll have too many opportunities to do so any time soon. I don't bear Muslims any animosity, though, and I have enjoyed reading some of the posts in here which remind me that there are plenty of Muslims out there doing wonderful things for our country.

Proxy,

You seem to be fixated with quoting from various ancient texts as if they are automatically associated with people today.

However, actions speak louder than words.

Considering the hundreds of thousands of pagans slaughtered by Christians in the first centuries after the Council of Nicea and the millions during the Spanish Inquisition plus the 6 million or so Jews during WW2, I think there is one religion that historically beats all the others for violence based on religious tolerance by a country mile.

The same goes for all those others that use a crucifix as a crutch to support all their own sectarian hatreds.

Glass houses?

Dear Wobbles... you seem fixated with the quaint idea that people today do not take seriously 'ancient texts' :).. sorry old son but you live a much too sheltered life.

When was the last time you listened closely to a sermon from Lakemba mosque pulpit? Or the mouth of the illustrious Sheik Faiz ?

Did you know Faiz is till plugged into over 4000 of Sydney's muslim youth via email and web sites?

Like I said before.. no fair person would deny that some Australians who happen to be Muslim have made some positive contributions to Australia. But the problem comes when the 'other' side of the picture comes immediately to mind due to some rather colorful headlines over the years which I won't bore you with.

Grateful is misdirected though, he seems to think positive contributions to AFGHAN charities is somehow 'Australian' ? Grateful, I think Foxy mean't 'in Australia' and 'for Australia'.

But the fundamental problem with the thread/topic is that it could easily be named "The positive contributions of Pablo Escobar to the Colombian poor of Medayin"

Which of course would mean the complete ignoring of how he obtained the wealth with which to do his 'humanitarian' work.

We could equally criticize the 'humanitarian' work of a plantation owner of the British aristocracy.. as his wealth was obtained off the backs of hundreds of black slaves....

No one has the right to avoid critical scrutiny. That includes me, Foxy and her topic.

I am sorry to say, but I have had no positive interaction with the average "muslim" in this country, and therefore can contribute nothing on that score.

For those who wish to wax lyrical about the effect of the Afghan Camel Drivers, there is always the "Battle of Broken Hill:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_Broken_Hill" to deal with. Seems like a typical attack by arabs to me, opening fire on an unsuspecting crowd and then trying to run away...

Fortunately Australian society at the time, recognised how to deal with them.

How many Muslim Generals have we had? How many Jewish Generals have we had? (Well, General John Monash stands out rather a lot).

How many Muslim Governor-Generals have we had? How many Jewish and when (big hint, our first home grown GG was Sir Isaac Isaacs)?

How many Muslim Judges do we have or have had? How many Chief Justices of the High Court? On the Jewish Side we have Sir Isaac Isaacs CJ (Again).

Wait till you actually have some "ACTUAL" achievements to showcase, before trying to blow this up, OK? I'm not on a pro-jewish rant, just showing the difference between the two groups, one has ACTUAL runs on the board, the other doesn't.

For the record, tell me how many jewish men have ever been found guilty of viciously pack raping Aussie girls?

Dear Foxy

I used to live in the Brunswick/Coburg area before moving to the ranges. I had many interactions with Muslim people on a daily basis. I can't think of ever having been treated badly by any - except for one very nasty little boy who was quickly admonished by his Muslim parents.

Sydney Road in Melbourne's north remains a vibrant and wonderful place to shop, eat or simply stroll. I recall one time I was overcharged at a Muslim Green Grocers - I returned, explained and received the correct change. No biggie.

I have also worked with recently arrived Muslim people. Again I found little to take issue - like any other group of people.

I guess my point is that the positive contribution of Australian Muslims is the same as every one else - the majority get on with their lives, are wonderful to interact with and no doubt as they graduate from our schools and universities will make similar contributions as have Vietnamese and many other immigrant groups before them.

I wish to register my disappointment that neither AGIR or Proxy have received any admonishment from management. I came to this thread too late to recommend for deletion the very worst behaviour and comments by Proxy (in particular). Is there a time limit on vile posts? Is it too late for me to recommend a post for deletion? I can see that management has been active here, Ginx being promptly deleted and suspended.

I'll probably get in trouble (again) just for stating the above.

In responce to AlGoreisRich:

QUOTE Grateful is misdirected though, he seems to think positive contributions to AFGHAN charities is somehow 'Australian' ? Grateful, I think Foxy mean't 'in Australia' and 'for Australia'.ENDQUOTE

Your comments are racist. You would not deny Australian Troops are making a contribution to Australia with their reconstruction efforts in Afghanistan, as well as their efforts on the battle-field against oppression.

Concerning Shaykhs with a message of hate, there are many Muslims at the 'front line' waging a jihad against the wahabbi sect. They have no strong hold other than through the influence they have been able to purchased with petro-dollars. They are becoming smaller each day.

They are more properly described as Kharijites. Here is an account of the Prophet's encounter with the first of the Kharajites and something to reflect upon before accusing all Muslims of the crimes of a few: cont...

2/3 cont...The first Kharajite
QUOTE

"In order to know the good among the people, one must first examine the history of heresy in Islam. Only by understanding false teachings and their supporters will we appreciate the importance of the people of good (Ahl ul-khayr).



The heresy of the Departers [Kharajites] was the first group of people who deviated from the pure and sublime faith of Islam. The first and worst of those who departed from the Sunni path was the Khariji known as the Dhul-Khuwaisarah. The Companion Abu Said al-Khudri; (r) related, “Once Sayyidina `Ali; (r) sent some gold ore wrapped in dyed leather from Yemen to the Prophet of Allah (s), and he divided it among four people: Zaid al-Khalil, al-Aqra ibn Habis, Unaiyna ibn Hisn and Alqamah ibn Ulathah.



A person among the Companions remarked that they had a better claim to the wealth than these people. When this remark reached the Prophet (s), He said, “Will you not trust me whom the One above the heavens has trusted? Information comes to me from the heavens morning and evening.”



Then a man with sunken eyes, high check bones, protruding forehead, thick beard and a shaven head, stood up and said, “Muhammad! Fear Allah!” The Prophet (s) turned to him and replied, “Woe be to you, am I not the person who fears Allah (s.w) the most?” The man than walked away and Khalid ibn al-Walid (r) jumped up and said, “Perhaps one who observes prayer says with his tongue what is not in his heart.” The Prophet (s) said, “I was not commanded to pierce the hearts or the people or slit open their bellies.”

He (s) glanced at the man who was walking away and said, “There will arise a people from among the progeny of this man who will recite the Qur'an but it will not go beyond their throats. They will pass through the religion as an arrow passes through its target.”


cont..

3/3 cont..

Khalid ibn al-Walid (r) asked the Prophet (s), “O Prophet of Allah (s) this man has all the [athar] effects of sunnah, his eyes are red due to crying, his face has two scars of tears on his checks, his feet are swollen due to standing the whole night in [tahajjud] night vigil, he has a thick beard …” The Prophet (s) replied, “The meaning of this Verse [qul in'kuntu tuhib'bina allah fat'tabiunun;] say if you love Allah follow me.” He asked, “How O Prophet of Allah (s)?' He (s) replied, 'Be kind like me, be compassionate, love the poor and the destitute, be gentle, care and love your brothers and be protective.’”



The cursed man was called Dhul-Khuwaisarah at-Tamimi and he is considered the first of the Khariji; to arise in Islam. The root of his sickness was that he preferred his own opinion above that of the Prophet (s). If he had waited to hear what the Prophet (s) had to say, he would have realized that no opinion can be given precedence over that of The Prophet (s), and it was his individual's tribe men who later rose in arms against the fourth Khalipha Sayyidina `Ali ibn Abi Talib (r).

ENDQUOTE

http://www.sunnah.org/history/The%20Kharijites%20and%20their%20successors.htm

So these Kharajites are NOT following the Prophet and in fact rejected the guidance of the Prophet.

When the Prophet said, above,:

"Be kind like me, be compassionate, love the poor and the destitute, be gentle, care and love your brothers and be protective."

.. he was speaking to us today, as much as he was to his follows over 1400 years ago.

This is why the Kharajites are a spent force: as more Muslims become away of their background they loose their legitimacy and no amount of petro-dollars can buy this legitmacy.

That is the message i'd like those sincere in building bridges to understand.

grateful

Thanks for your input. As an Atheist I am intrigued by those who go on to choose a religious path.

Most importanlty, Christianity and Islam seem not very far apart at all in the essentials -

"Be kind like me, be compassionate, love the poor and the destitute, be gentle, care and love your brothers and be protective."

Foxy,
Why single out muslims as a group, why not Hindus, jews, christians or atheists.

You are implying that muslims make a positive contribution simply by being muslim.

You quote the Afghan cammeleers and were they all muslim or in fact Afghans? One could single out the contribution of 'Injun' hawkers, who provided a valuble service to isolated selectors and homesteaders, but were they all Hindu and were they all Indian?

I suppose one could denigrate the muslim Afghan cameleers for letting the camels loose, when they were of no further use, and creating the enviromental problem we now have in our deserts. Equally we could blame the religion of the person who introduced rabbits for causing a massive problem.

The facts are that many individuals have, and still do, make possitive, and negative, contributions to our society and that religion has nothing to do with it.

But there are certain groups that refuse to give up alien cultural practices, which are adverse to our society, and I believe we should stop importing those groups.

I'm beginning to sound like a broken
record here - but once again - Thanks
to everyone who's contributed positively
to the thread.

The Forum Rules state quite clearly:

1) Keep responses on topic.
2) Do not flame.
3) Do not post the same messages across
multiple threads.
4) Observe ... defamation laws.

And so forth.

As I've stated previously there is free speech
and then there is hate inducing vilification.

Once again I recommend you all take a look at
the following website:

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=2893

Especially scroll down to the post by one BOAZ_David
in the comment section of this website where he makes
allowances for the actions and behaviour
of certain Christians, (we have to understand why
they did what they did),
but he's not willing to do the same for the actions
of certain Muslims. Double standard? You betcha!
(He goes under the name of ALGOREisRICH at present).

And as for Proxy, well he's never insulted a Muslim -
so he claims. Yet read what he has to say on our
positive Muslim contributor by the name of "Grateful."

As another poster pointed out - actions do indeed speak
louder than words. The thing that I've always loved
about this Forum has been the variety of conversations
taking place. However,some people lack the art of
conversation, but unfortunately not speech.

Dear Severin,

I agree with you wholeheartedly - Management should
do something. I'm surprised that Management has not been
sued for defamation by the Islamic Council - because
defamation of a religous group is a criminal offence.

Dear Banjo,

Kindly read my opening post
it explains the reasons for the
thread. And should make things
crystal clear to you.

Thanks Foxy

I'm feel validated for being understood, having made criticisms of management on OLO instead of privately (by email) and I was suspended.

Besides, how do you choose among the plethora of posts by the those who vilify Muslims? Perhaps, that is part of the strategy; make so many offensive posts that people give up. I admit to skimming AGIR (Boaz) - life is too short and I have far more positive ways to spend my time.

QUOTE

grateful

Thanks for your input. As an Atheist I am intrigued by those who go on to choose a religious path.

Most importanlty, Christianity and Islam seem not very far apart at all in the essentials -

"Be kind like me, be compassionate, love the poor and the destitute, be gentle, care and love your brothers and be protective."

ENDQUOTE
Pelican, thank-you for the kind words.

I think those who express fear or hatred to what they consider an "alien culture" are denying themselves the opportunity to understand their own culture, values or way of life.

To give an example: I once participated in a 2-day intensive in pastural care run by one of the major hospitals. Participating were Christians,Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Budhists and a couple of atheists. We were given different scenarios involving patients or relatives/friends in trauma, facing difficult choices or terminal illness, and asked how we would deal with each situation. We were also asked to discuss our respective traditions' approach to pasteral care.

I learned so much about my religion by listening and discussing how others applied their teachings to practical issues (notably Buddhist, who are always good value).

Perhaps some of the oppostion to a constructive dialogue on this and other posts reflects an 'identity crisis'. I'd just like these people to give it go, because I'm sure they'll find an opportunity to deepen and reinforse key Australian cultural traits such as "mateship" and "fair go".

An atheist would probably say "mateship" and "a fair go" are examples of how values which reinforse harmony and co-existance can evolve through human experience, without Divine intervention, whereas people such as myself would see them as evidence of our Creators compassion and guidance.

Whatever! We are both working for the same thing: a civilised environment to realise our potential and allow our children to do the same. We have every reason to be helping ourselves out particularly when the problems confronting us as a community are extremely challenging (consider, for example, binge-drinking, youth suicide, addiction to computer games, sexual violence, pedophilia).

Dear grateful,

We should judge people as we find them
and not make assumptions about them based
on our limited understandings of any given
ancient texts that these people may or may
not follow.

Fundamentalists exist in any religion and
it is unfortunate that Islamic fundamentalism
conjures up images of adulterers being stoned,
flogging executions, and in extreme cases, of
political fanaticism exemplified in aircraft
hijackings and terrorist bombings. This picture
is rather distorted, for it is based on what is
newsworthy rather than what is typical.

Your posts to this thread have helped a great deal,
and I Thank You for them. Muslims have contributed
to the Australian communities for decades, and I
have every faith that they shall continue to do so
for decades to come. They continue sharing community-
business partnership experiences with people like
Rob Hunt, CEO, Bendigo Bank.

Professor Abdullah Saeed is Professor and Head of the
Arabic and Islamic Studies Program at the wonderful
Sidney Myer Asia Centre, University of Melbourne.
He wrote the book, "Islam in Australia," which is worth
a read. As is the following website:

http://www.asiacentre.unimelb.edu.au/about/index.php

Which gives you an insight into the work the centre does.
If you're ever in Melbourne, it's worth a visit.

Foxy: >> Your post reminded me of a paragraph I
read in a Sydney newspaper decades ago:

the right to be exactly the same as everybody else...
it's a lot easier to make yourself like something you really hate
rather than say you hate it and have everybody
go crooked on you."

How does this comment present Australians? <<

Foxy, twas the way it was back in the day. I remember a folksy song from the sixties along the same theme, no individuality and max social compliance, the song runs for under a minute and says it all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWeUiRAEXDk

Foxy we still have class conformity and gender conformity, but what our society does not have is a witch hunt by the authorities, spurred on by the church and outrage added by the press if you wanted to for instance worship Guppies, and dress in a head to toe Guppy suit. But that Guppy could not enter a bank, local state or federal offices, public hospitals, drive a motor vehicle, swim in a municipal swimming pool. Security is the primary issue, and public safety the second.
This week a full bag wearing Muslim woman after being pulled over for a traffic infringement refused to remove the bag from her head. That day she was on the radio in sound bites telling how this racist cop had ripped the bag from her head and been racist in his speech and manor. The next hour’s news sound bite brought Muslim leaders comments on the travesty that is happening every day to his community. Then silence.

The cop car had a camera, the cop was professional and civil, he never touched her, but the liar will not be charged. I really do think in all probability if it were the Guppies worshiper, or you or me, we would be charged with false allegations against a police officer.

Foxy am I scared of change, you bet when there is an agenda involved that I cannot trust the authorities to deal with within existing laws because of politically correct agendas.

Dear Pelly
when you make statements like this:

"Be kind like me, be compassionate, love the poor and the destitute, be gentle, care and love your brothers and be protective."

as a way of expressing the closeness of Christianity to Islam.. I just about have a coronary. Seriously.. nothing could be further from the truth.

Without trying to 'prove' that here..and infringe foxies rules :) I just want that on the record. I have not even said that difference is 'good or bad'...but I think you already know.

Grateful mentioned Khalid bin Al Walid... feel free to google that scoundrel and see exactly what kind of a loathesome man he was.

On topic. I can refer to one Muslim who is doing a great job.

Dr Berhan Ahmed

I met him at a function in Flemingston. He is a very nice bloke, and clearly good hearted. It's a pity that the night I met him was one where large numbers of Somali Muslims spent the night telling everyone there are no terrorists in their community.. just after the last big set of arrests. Of course this highlights the difference..
Berhan a nice bloke.. others not so nice.

http://www.att.org.au/berhan2009.html

Grateful.. if you stick to the topic and focus only on 'Muslims who contributed positively to Australia' and not use the thread as a platform for Islamic Da'wa.. you might get less anti 'islamic' comments.

AlGoreisRich,
Thank-you for the advice. So now it seems we are agreed that we should all be falling into line with Foxy’s topic.

IMO, we have every reason to be helping each other out particularly when the problems confronting us as a community are extremely challenging. Our disagreements are really about how such problems should be tackled and anyone serious about tackling the problems we share as a Australian community would bring these different perspectives together in a bid to come up with real solutions.

This topic, although it is not about tackling great social challenges, does lay the groundwork by seeking a constructive dialogue. Its good practice for all of us and I'm sure you and others have a lot to offer.

Foxy,
You referred to " community-business partnership experiences with people like Rob Hunt, CEO, Bendigo Bank." Do you have more detail?

salaams

I find it incredibly enlightening that there is a perceived NEED to talk up the positive contributions of Muslims in Australia.

We don't have to talk up the positive contributions of other immigrants..

Yet due to the actions of the accepted "Spokespeople" for the Australian Muslim Community, being Keysar Trad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keysar_Trad) and Sheik Taj El-Din Hilaly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_El-Din_Hilaly) and some of their more off the wall conduct, some people seem to see a need to put a positive spin on the community in a manner other than that sanctioned by the community (which continues to accept Trad & Hilaly as their spokesmen and therefore, they continue to be spoken for by them).

Interesting isn't it? I mean, I wouldn't dare to presume to speak for a 'Community' that had chosen specific spokesmen, especially when what I was saying directly contradicted their outpourings of racist (http://www.internationalfreepresssociety.org/2009/08/australian-court-rules-against-islamic-spokesman-in-defamation-case/ also see http://www.abc.net.au/sundayprofile/stories/s1868267.htm), sexist (who could forget the "uncovered meat" statement: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/beware-the-words-of-a-wolf-dressed-in-sheikhs-clothing-20100606-xn25.html?comments=47) and downright treasonous statements (http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/controversial-mufti-attacks-australia-in-tv-interview/2007/01/11/1168105116655.html)...

The MUSLIM COMMUNITY selected these spokesmen, they have not to my knowledge selected you to speak for them, especially where your views are not in sync with those of Trad & Hilaly.

Let the Muslim Community choose some decent spokesmen to undo the damage done to their image. They are the ones who have not only not demonstrated any positive contributions, but repeatedly behaved and/or spoken in a fashion which has directly increased the so called "Islamophobia" within this Country.

While ever the muslim community as a whole continues to support these two, the muslim community can expect to be treated like, well, uncovered meat (slimy, unpalatable and with a smell that is more than merely off-putting)...

Is that direct enough for you?

ALGOREisRICH,
The notion that some people are "fixated by ancient texts" is being done selectively by others in these threads for purposes of general vilification, as if it was some kind of proof.

I can assume that I'm hellbound because I've eaten shellfish and worn two different types of cloth on occasion but I don't take this seriously. What makes you think that one group of people abide strictly to their writings but another may not?

Comparing the worst of one with the best of another is not reasonable.

Suggesting that Mohammed was some kind of paedophile for example is meant to insult rather than prove anything about people in the 21st century. Some may be surprised to learn that according to custom at the time, Mary would have been married at between 12 and 14 years of age in an arranged marriage while Joseph was somewhere between 40 and 90 although these arrangements did not automatically imply consummation at those ages.

It's just another example of selective belief.
You yourself brush off the fact that some leaders of the BNP are convicted racist thugs as "ancient history" but them bring up notions from the iron age to defend Israeli aggression.

I remember years ago while living in Sydney,
a poliish man got into a fight in the local
pub, pulled a knife, and made the newspaper
headlines the next day. For a while - polish people
were described as "knife-wielding" thugs that
people were weary of. That of course passed
with time - when other ethnic communities
became the ones to fear. And so it goes.
What's new becomes old and acceptable with time.
And is replaced by others to fear.

Perhaps that's human nature, I really don't know.
I do find it amazing though that some people who
travel overseas, and really enjoy the differences
of the cultures they encounter, yet are
not that willing to be gracious to the
differences in their own backyards.

To me that's illogical. As for Hillaly - and others
of his ilk. He was simply a fundamentalist,
and we've got plenty of those in many religions.
The Islamic Community in Sydney got
rid of him - and strongly voiced their disapproval of what
he said. Communities can't be held responsible for
the fundamentalists in their midsts. They can and do
however voice their disapproval. For every Hilally
there's an equivalent in many other religious
communities, as we all know.

Single individuals - should be held accountable for
their own actions. No one else.

Dear Grateful,

The Bendigo Bank reference I believe was given in
the book, "Islam in Australia," by Prof. Abdullah Saeed.

Dear Wobbles,

Excellent post.

Thank You.

Al I didn't intend to provoke a coronary. :)

Well yes, newcomers ideally should attempt to assimilate or integrate into the society they choose to call home, in regard to acceptance of the rule of law. Muslims with whom I have had dealings also prefer the freedoms and rights that a democracy affords over the harsh regimes experienced in their homelands.

Assimilation or integration (these are just words bandied about) does not mean "become exactly like us". It is possible to maintain your own religious and cultural beliefs within a multicultural society and assimilate or integrate. None of us of Anglo heritage are exactly alike nor do we all follow the same religion.

Fundamentalist who promote terrorism or those who abuse or rape women are committing illegal acts and will be dealt with under the law.

bigos
You mentioned stereotypes being based on a pattern of behaviour. I agree this is true but stereotypes can be wrong and imply certain traits to a majority when often it is limited to a small group.

Are all Aussies beer swilling ockers? No but not so long ago considered a typical Aussie stereotype. Women were once considered too feeble brained to be able to vote, and thought to possess lesser intelligence based on gender. Clearly this stereotype was wrong.

Foxy,
I did read your first post before and have read it several times since
You wrote
"I thought that it might be interesting
to discuss the positive contributions of
Australian Muslims to possibly dispel
the misconceptions held by some people
in the wider community
and the negative media faced by Australian
Muslims"

You obviously must think that the negative press is undeserved and that some people have misconceptions about muslims.

When one looks at the world situation the negative press is deserved. for example. Since 9/11 there have been 15456 Islamic terrorist attacks. That is 143 per month. Total casualties are not known. For the month of May this year there were 150 attacks in 14 countries. Killing 729 people and injuring 1591.

I put it to you that these figures are shocking and have a lot to do with people attitude toward muslims. The figures indicate that there are more than a 'few' radicals.

While we have not had any terrorist attacks here, there have been about 20 persons convicted for planning attacks. As little as a week, or so, ago there were mobs chanting "kill the jews" in our capital cities.
Now the anti-social Lebanese muslims may have given all muslims a bad name here in Aus, but I also recall violence in Auburn because of the first election in Iraq and Kurds threatening to burn themselves in central Sydney. I wont even go into the racist gang rapes and the Cronulla situation and its aftermarth.

So I consider it understandable that people have negative attitudes toward muslims in general and really any bad press has been brought on by muslims own doing. Muslims get plenty of opportunity to promote themselves if they wish. Even the government has buried a damming report on the conduct of many muslim males after their wives obtained a divorce under our laws. This report was prepared by the Victorian Muslim Womens Group a year or so ago.

The mention of a few muslims that have made good contributions will do little to help the overall situation.

Pelly...

I'm out of intensive care now :) so I can post again.

Something in your post intrigued me.. in fact I made a few phone calls about it this morning "The Investigation...has begun" :)

You say you have had a fair bit to do with Refugees etc..

Do you know anything about a 'private company' named 'Redback Services' ?

They are connected to AMES in Melbourne which is a provider of settlement services.
I found from the DIMA web site that in terms of settlment the Gov't provides 'subsidized housing for 4 weeks after arrival'

But from then on.... It get's blurry.. I don't know of AMES provides on going accomodation..and if so..where from..and whether the costs of such accomodation forms part of their tender application and so on.

HELP :)

I wanted to know if the housing commission has a pool of special places set aside for refugees and if so..how many..where.. etc.

I suppose some Muslims might be active in this area :) so.. that's my 'on topic' contribution for this post.

On your other point about assimilation etc. a Greek bloke summed it up best to me. "I'm still very greek, but my kids are less so..and their kids will be Aussies" Of course he means that in the sense of seeing themselves completely as aussies..rather than as in his case... still feeling 'Greek' in Aus. But he could not find enough words of praise for our country compared to Greece.

Banjo: << I consider it understandable that people have negative attitudes toward muslims in general and really any bad press has been brought on by muslims own doing >>

Shorter Banjo: the negative stereotype of Muslims suits my xenophobic worldview, so I object to hearing about positive contributions from Australian Muslims that might challenge my bigotry.

Dear Banjo,

I would like you to read the following
website:

http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/terrorism_compare.html

It may put things into perspective for you.

From the opening page to that site: "Islam - the Modern Religion"

From an article therein:

"As the leader, the man needs to start off with the right steps and in turn, the wife will supply him with obedience, respect, and love."

Nothing very modern about that.

Like Roman Catholicism, the fundamentalism is in the religion and liberation comes from the rejection of it.

Banjo...I agree with you here..."But there are certain groups that refuse to give up alien cultural practices, which are adverse to our society, and I believe we should stop importing those groups."

It is past time that the British were allowed to come here, to OUR country!

I'm fed up with all their whingeing and whining about cold beer, hot pork pies, and decent meat.

Why don't they just leave us alone and go home?

Foxy hiiii!
There are some fantastic Muslim football players in the FIFA worldcup!

http://muslimsoccer.blogspot.com/2009/12/lee-woon-jae-ready-for-world-cup-2010.html

Al
I have not worked directly with refugees in the capacity of refugee assistance, I think Severin has - you may be confusing her with me.

All those questions you have in relation to allocation of government housing for refugees can be obtained under Freedom Of Information from any State or Commonwealth agency that has responsibility (much of it overlaps) - Department of Immigration (DIAC) or any state housing authority. I would tell you if I knew but I don't have that information, I do know that the waiting lists are ridiculously long and many high risk housing applicants are at risk of homelessness or are homeless.

The Greek analogy is apt. My father was a European immigrant with poor English when he arrived, but now his grammar is better than most Aussie born Aussies. Muslim immigration is still very new, and in two or three generations the differences will be much less marked. Our hope really rests to a large extent on future generations where youth are more exposed to various cultures through school and other social activities and have the opportunity to question any extreme dogma.

Single individuals should be held to account for their actions, that is true.

But when they are the designated spokesperson for a group, then the group is responsible for what they say (if only by failing to drop them as a spokesperson as a result of some particularly odious statement).

Sheikh Hilaly made NUMEROUS statements which were distinctly abusive, treasonous and straight out offensive, yet he was only dropped as a spokesperson when video came out of him trying to frame several young muslim men for smashing a door in his mosque.

Keyser Trad remains the spokesperson for the same group, despite his outbursts being labeled as racist, blatantly provocative and sexist to boot.

Precisely when will this communities failure to censure its spokespeople be held to constitute an acceptance of the comments made do you think?

For mine, the minute they took no action (particularly with regard to the pack-rapes), or the Cronulla "riots" (and the aggressive crap that came after it).

If the communities designated spokespeople cannot draw our attention to their good deeds (or have made no attempt to so do), who are you to try and do so? Have you some mandate from the muslim community to try and improve their public image, or are you simply trying to mitigate the harm the leaders thereof do to themselves every time they speak/respond to a crowd?

I don't see anyone here talking up the Maltese, the Italians, the Greeks, the Vietnamese, the whatever elses... Why does this community require your expertise?

Oh yeah, that's right... We shouldn't expect any better from them should we... They are muslims, thus they are incapable of being held to the same standards of conduct expected of everyone else... Poor fella him hey?

Dear Banjo,

What are the statistics of violence
between Muslim sects?

In Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan,
and other areas where more than one
Muslim sect resides.

And what are the statistics of Muslim
violence against Western Cultures?

Just as a comparison.

Do you know?

Dear Cornflower,

What have you rejected lately?

Tell us abou it.

Dear The Blue Cross,

Who, What, Where?

Or have you taken the wrong turn?

Dear Celivia,

Welcome back!

Thanks for the website.

It's much appreciated.

Dear Custard,

Sounds to me like you need a
little extra sugar, and a drop of vanilla!

Foxy... you sound like Thatcher giving George Negus the once-over years ago.... 'Which people? who are they? name them? who said that?

Dear The Blue Cross,

Well, I've been described as a lot
of things on this Forum, but
as Thatcher - it's a first.

Although, I was described as
the Queen by a poster not so long
ago, so I guess that's pretty close.

The reality is - I'm way younger
than either of them, I don't
suffer from any visions of grandeur,
I work darn hard for a living, and
I'm extremely approachable (so I've
been told). I'm also greatly taller,
slender, and leggier.

But Thanks for the compliment anyway,
(I think).

You still haven't answered my questions
though - as to who exactly are you talking
about in you reference that "they should
go home?" Who should go home, what home is
that, and where?

Ah... Foxy... I was playing the Banjo a little.... he was moaning about 'them' coming here etc etc.

Many of 'us' came here, and from the Auld dart too.

Do all from the UK subscribe to every facet of 'being an Aussie'?

Thankfully not.

Dear The Blue Cross,

Big hug

and

Mwah mwah!

Thanx Pelly...I'll refer to fraccy.

In response to what you said :

//Muslim immigration is still very new, and in two or three generations the differences will be much less marked. Our hope really rests to a large extent on future generations where youth are more exposed to various cultures through school and other social activities and have the opportunity to question any extreme dogma//

I wish I could share your optimism. If they were buddhists or hindu's I could be..but not with Islam. This should tweak to some of my critics (and Proxy's) that we have not banged away at those other faiths...and Buddhism is growing faster than Islam in Australia.

I guess it depends on who we encounter, experience etc.. and I seem to cop the worst.(Muslims) in the sense of their hyper fundamentalism.

The thing which dramatically effects the truth of your statement, is world events. Note the problems in the Middle east.. (Gaza flotilla) and there is now a new flotilla from Iran on the way. Such things (and any trouble arising) immediately polarizes a very radical segment of the population and at least energizes the moderates.

To make it worse.. the Socialists jump onto this kind of thing like it was the last pair of shoes at a boxing day sale. Ohhh they LOVE it..and when the demo's come.. just start counting "Socialist Alternative" among the banners :)

Dr Berhan Ahmad is a very nice bloke in person...can't say the same for some of the others who were at the HREOC dialogue at Flemington though.

Mr Mohamed Hassan OAM

Medal of Order of Australia 2007

Recognised for "his great achievements and contribution to Education and the Islamic community since he migrated here in 1967. Mr Hassan has a wide experience as an engineer, lecturer, educational and community leader and the founding Director of Minaret College.

He was educated at Alexandra University, Egypt; Leeds University in UK, and New South Wales University, Australia. For 11 years, he worked as a lecturer at the Bendigo College of Advanced Education and in 1982 he joined the Footscray College of TAFE where he lectured Electronic Engineering for the next 10 years.

Mr Hassan is a household name in the Australian Islamic Community. He has been an active Islamic community leader since he migrated to Australia in 1967. He is a founding member of the Australian Council of Islamic Education in Schools (ACIES), which is an umbrella organisation of Islamic schools in Australia. He contributed towards the writing of the Islamic "Schools Charter" in 2001 and he initiated the ‘‘Faith Schools Declaration of 2005’’.

Mr Hassan is a strong proponent of multiculturalism, racial tolerance and respect of different faiths. Since September 11, he has fostered community harmony through inter-faith dialogue among Victorian State, Catholic, Jewish and Independent schools.

Moreover, Mr Hassan initiated the ‘’Understanding Islam’’ seminar which has been running in the City of Greater Dandenong since October 2001. Through these seminars, many Victorians, including Principals, Head of Schools, Curriculum Coordinators, Teachers, Lecturers, Police, Councilors, City Mayors, Members of Parliaments, Bankers, and Social Workers etc. have come to understand the Islamic religious tradition. On this note, Mr Hassan printed a booklet called ‘Basic Principles of Islam’ which is distributed free of charge to non-Muslims to help them have basic understanding of Islam.

In a nut shell, since his migration to Australia in 1967, Mr Hassan has contributed greatly to the socio-economic development of the country in his capacity as an engineer, lecturer, educational and community leader. He has used his position as a Muslim community leader to promote education, racial harmony and inter-faith dialogue in Australia. "

http://www.minaret.vic.edu.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=101&Itemid=89

MAHA KRAYEM ABDO, a recipient of the Medal of the Order of Australia, does not like to think of herself as a soldier in the culture wars but a refugee.

It was not easy when she and her family migrated from Lebanon to Australia in the 1960s - she barely spoke a word of English.

But the principal at Coogee Primary School would take the time outside school hours to give her extra tuition and, apart from occasionally being called a wog, she made friends easily.

Then, in the late 1980s, when Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses was published, things began to change. Ms Abdo said she began to realise the need to reconcile the twin pillars of her identity, as an Australian and a Muslim.

"[The public debate] was very much about the negative aspects of Islam," she said.

"I became very interested and wanted to know what it meant for me as an Australian Muslim, and that was the beginning of my journey to find out my own positions.

"Out of something negative I felt that I needed to participate and take a role in correcting those myths."

Since 1991 Ms Krayem Abdo has been involved in the United Muslim Women's Association - "we grew up together," she said - serving as president for more than a decade. In the process she became a de facto voice of Muslim women in Australia.

Her achievements are many, including winning the 2002 NSW Premier's Award for her role in setting up the Muslim Foster Care service. She was also the recipient of the Affinity Intercultural Foundation's Muslim woman of the year award in 2003.

But speaking out for Muslim women has also meant speaking out against those who have offended them in the name of politics.

Most notably, Ms Krayem Abdo debated the Reverend Fred Nile on national television after he called for Muslim women to be banned from wearing their traditional robes because he believed they could conceal weapons.

1/3 cont..

2/2 cont..
She also spoke out against a call by the federal MP Bronwyn Bishop for the hijab to be banned in schools, saying that being "free within the confines of sharia law; it's the same as people saying they feel free under slavery".

However, it is not a role that Ms Krayem Abdo relishes. Rather, she would like to

wind back the clock, being treated as an equal at school.

"I will continue to do what I'm doing, so that my grandchildren can hold their heads up high and say, 'We're Australian and we are from the Islamic faith and this is what we have to offer'."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/a-refugee-building-bridges/2008/06/08/1212863458349.html

There are more photos of Maha at different venue (spot Pauline Hanson!) as well as two more beautiful woman: foster parent Susan O'Connor and domestic violence refuge worker Marion Hosking... May Allah shower them all with his blessing!

http://www.smh.com.au/interactive/2008/national/unsung-heroes/index.html

AlGoreisRich said

<<I guess it depends on who we encounter, experience etc.. and I seem to cop the worst.(Muslims) in the sense of their hyper fundamentalism.>>

I'll have to invite you to one of our monthly Mawlids (celebration of the Prophet's birthday), where you can enjoy qasidas, then mingle with young Muslim families , as the kids chase each other around the masjid. :-)

salaams

Cornflower:
<<Like Roman Catholicism, the fundamentalism is in the religion and liberation comes from the rejection of it

Posted by Cornflower, Tuesday, 15 June 2010 2:28:49 PM
>>

mmm this word fundamentalism. What is it?

My Shaykh once said: "A sufi is strict on himself, while giving dispensation towards others"

From this, and encounters with Muslims, Christains,and Atheists, i derive my own definition of fundamentalism.

Fundamentalists know all there is to know, being kind to those who follow their teachings, but harsh towards those who turn away. They are pre-occupied with condemning others and finding fault with others and give no attention to their own selves.

salaams

Cornflower,
This is how the Fundamentalist/Moderate divide is playing out in Somalia

FUNDAMENTALISTS:
http://www.smh.com.au/world-cup-2010/world-cup-news/football-fans-executed-for-watching-world-cup-20100615-ybrj.html

<< Two Somali football fans have been killed by Islamic militants after being caught watching World Cup matches......
....Sheikh Mohamed Abdi Aros, a spokesman for the militants, said Somalia should respect their ban on the World Cup and focus on pursuing jihad.
"We are warning all the youth of Somalia not to dare watch these World Cup matches," he said.
"It is a waste of money and time and they will not benefit anything or get any experience by watching mad men jumping up and down.">>

MODERATES:
http://muslimvillage.com/2010/05/29/somalias-moderate-muslims-rise-up-to-fight-extremism/
<< .....For centuries, the Sufis were men of peace. They followed a spiritual current of Islam that emphasizes moral education, tolerance and a personal link to God. When Somalia plunged into clan wars after the collapse of the central government in 1991, Islam’s extremist Wahhabi strain gained strength amid the anarchy.
But the Sufis engaged in neither the conflict nor politics. When neighboring Ethiopia invaded Somalia in 2006, with covert U.S. backing, to suppress a hard-line Islamist movement, the Sufis remained on the sidelines.
The invasion sparked the rise of the ultra-radical al-Shabab, which swiftly took control of large patches of southern and central Somalia. Al-Shabab fighters soon set their sights on the Sufis, whom they branded as heretics, assassinating Sufi clerics and burning down Sufi shrines. They opened Sufi graves and pulled the bodies out.
“In this world, they kill you. And when you die, you still cannot escape,” said Abdullahi Abdurahman Abu Yousef, a senior Sufi commander.
An uprising begins.....>>

Being religious (or even strict in observing your religion) does not make you a fundamentalist and a fundamentalist is not necessarily religious.

salaams

grateful

Richard Dawkins has used the term fundamentalism to describe religious advocates clinging to a stubborn, entrenched position that defies reasoned argument or contradictory evidence.

"Muslim immigration is still very new.."?

Some African muslims came on the early fleets as navigators.
Others came in the mid 1800's to help open up the central desert areas and drive the camel trains.

Despite the White Australia Policy others came in from the 1920s to the 1960s and 10,000 arrived from Turkey between 1967-1971.

Large scale immigration from Lebanon started in 1975 and from Somalia in 1991.

At this time there are Muslims immigrants who have come from more than 60 countries - not just the Middle East.

By 2001 about 36% of Muslims in Australia were actually born here so are either second (or more) generation or some late converts.

This puts them in the same context as many European and Mediterranean refugees who arrived in the 1950's and they seems to have assimilated within a generation or two.

There are good and bad Muslims, just as there are good and bad Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and atheists.

Being a follower of a particular religion doesn't automatically brand you as one thing or another.

The belief that is does was followed in Germany in the late 1930s and some of the comments above look strangely familiar.

Dear Rache

being a follower of a particular religion does not brand a person as one thing or another ?

u are kidding..surely.. are you saying all religions are the same ?

I beg to differ..... if Religion 'X' advocates paedophilia and religion "Y" declares such behavior 'abhorrent' surely you see the difference ?

http://www.exfamily.org/art/exmem/debdavis/debdavis07.shtml

Children of God cult. (Leader Moses Berg practiced paedophilia)

"Blind faith, naive obedience, irresponsible dedication, fanatical loyalty—these were the volatile chemicals of human devotion that ignited the zeal of the COG into a white-hot blaze of emotion."

"Until the summer of 1971, the moral lifestyle of the COG was strict and puritanical. Dating was forbidden, as were kissing and holding hands. Sex was absolutely taboo outside of marriage. The only exception to this was, of course, Mo. But his situation was specially ordained and known only to the leadership. However, this condition of moral piety among the body of the Children of God was not to remain for long."

The story makes a fascinating read from an 'Insider'...it was amazing how it morphed from a whacky 'Christian' group into a full blown OCCULT driven sex crazed group of weirdo's.

Notice the exception when it came to sex ? ....you can find exactly the same kind of exception in the 33rd chapter of another 'holy' book.. in the 50th verse.

In short..you used a key word "followers"... if they follow.. they have a leader.. or a book...and if they follow it.. you can refer to those leaders or books for info about them.

I suppose there were 'positive contributions' made by members of the COG also... that does not make their beliefs any nicer or more acceptable...does it ?

AlGorisRich you seem to have a bad case of 'sour grapes'. The grapes are not sour, Mr Fox. You simply cannot attain them, and instead have resorted to distortion and innuendo to overcome a deep contraction between your beliefs and reality.

For those of us who need reminding of Aesop's fable of the fox and the grapes:

<<One hot summer's day a Fox was strolling through an orchard till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch. "Just the thing to quench my thirst," quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: "I am sure they are sour."

It is easy to despise what you cannot get.>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes

It seems you want something that your own religion cannot provide. You find it in Islam, but because you remain wedded to your own corrupted teachings you cannot attain it. So you look for ways to criticise it and as the previous post so clearly demonstrates can only do so by applying your own interpretation and ignoring interpretation of those who have the scholarship to do so.

I offered you the hand of friendship and instead you come back with one of the most heineous insults one can make. The hand of friendship is always there but first you have to take a closer look at yourself and what motivates this wretched behaviour of yours.

I think that grateful's contributions from a Muslim perspective have been far more "positive" in this thread than have those of Boazy's from a Christian perspective.

Dear CJ,

Grateful has been a very positive contributor
to this thread.

We are all aware that over the past decades,
religious fervor has erupted in the Islamic world
in general, and in the Middle East in particular.
This fervor has been inspired by fundamentalism.
As I've stated earlier
to many Westerners, Islamic fundamentalism seems like
an almost scandalous return to medieval morality.
It conjures up images of public floggings and executions,
political fanaticism exemplified in aircraft hijackings,
and terrorist bombings. This picture is rather distorted
for it is based on what is
newsworthy rather than what is typical.

Nobody seems to be interested in why
Islamic fundamentalism
has intensified at all -
especially at a time when we might
expect the societies involved to be moving forward,
toward modernization, rather than backward toward
tradition.

Sociologists have observed that fundamentalist revivals
in whatever religion, take place in times when social
changes have led to turmoil, uncertainty, and the
erosion of familiar values. When people find themselves
confused, threatened, or even appalled at changing
conditions, they may see a "return to basics" as a
solution. It is not surprising, therefore, that Islamic
fundamentalism has surged in societies like Iran,
which has experienced wrenching social change as a result
of their new oil wealth. Some of these societies had
previously remained culturally fairly static for
generations - in some cases for centuries. Then, in less
than the space of a single life span, they were thrust
into a world of airports and highways, schools and
television, factories and power plants. As part of this
process, some of the Islamic societies have been flooded
with foreign advisers, officials, and entrepreneurs,
as well as foreign military.
These newcomers
behave in a variety of ways that deeply offend the locals.
In the view of the fundamentalists, foreigners, especially
from the West, are a profoundly immoral and corrupting
influence.

The solidarity of any community is enhanced if it perceives
a common outside threat.

cont'd...

Ummm excuxe me Grateful.. "my last post" ? ? ?

was firstly a response to Rache...not you.

Secondly.. it does not mention Islam in the slightest..it refers to a so called Christian cult!

Are you suffering from some kind of paranoia ?

What in this wide world are you talking about ?

-I want something... (what ? sex ?)
-Cannot find it in my own religion...?
-I CAN however find "it" (whatever "it" is) in Islam ?
-I am wedded to 'corrupt teaching'
-I thus criticize.. "it"... u mean my own faith ? *confused look*
-Scholarship? R u suggesting that there are enlightened scholars who would support the debauched religion of these cult members ?

What did you eat this morning .. I think you need some treatment.

Lets just summarize.

a) I respond to Rache about something
b) In that response I criticize a "Christian" cult.
c) But this is in reality "Rejecting friendship with you"
and..I have a bad case of 'sour grapes'....you lost me there completely.. sour grapes about.....what ?

Please fill me in because I'm about to experience a head explosion.

CJ.. you are entitled to your opinion.. you make for an unboring forum :)

cont'd ...

The principal foreign enemy of the fundamentalists
is the United States, whose presence in an
otherwise Islamic area is seen as a continuing
wound to all Muslims. They fear the impact of
American culture and political interference in
their societies.

Their own governments, they claim, are often used
as mere pawns in America's geopolitical strategy,
a strategy in which the interests of ordinary
Muslims count for nothing.

Despite their antipathy to the United States, the
fundamentalists are concerned mainly with conditions
in their own countries. Most Muslims are desperately
poor, for their nations' oil wealth has been unequally
shared, creating a new elite whose extravagant lifestyle
arouses deep resentment in the populace.

The fundamentalists aim at nothing less than the
replacement of their rulers by Islamic governments,
in which the distinction between the religious and the
secular would disappear. A perfect example of this
was the Iranian revolution of 1979 in which the shah,
a deeply unpopular ruler who was perceived as an
American puppet, was deposed through a movement led by
Shiite Muslim clergy.

Islamic fundamentalism, like the "Protestant ethic,"
arises out of specific social and cultural conditions,
and it may eventually, in turn, influence the
subsequent course of social change. As happened with
the IRA in Ireland.

We can only live and hope.

Dear Al,

If you don't "mention Islam in the slightest,"
what "other holy book" are you referring to
in your post to Rache?

Just curious.

Foxy,
I began to read the paper by Dr. Shafaat, but just skimmed through it after the bit where he said the US and Brits had killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and that the President dropped bombs on Iraq and Afghanistan to cover his sexual scandals. Also noted it was dated 1983 so how could reference be made to events in 2003? Obviously not correct!I can find fiction of my own choosing. Still another example of lies told by a muslim to further their cause, just like the recent woman who told lies about the police officer trying to remove her veil.

No, I do not have stats on the numbers of muslims and others killed by Islamic terrorist attacks, but Irfan Yussuf has said they kill more muslims than others and I believe him. Certainly after the defeat of Hussein in Iraq there was dancing in the streets but within a few days the sunnis and the shia were blowing each other up, vieing to be top dog. Too bloody minded and stupid to take the opportunity given to them, to make a decent country together. I expect quite a few Buddhists get killed in Thailand and some christians in the Phillipines.

The Blue Cross,
Since when have the Poms not been able to give up alien cultural practices when here. Our beer is served cold and that is the way it is. When was I moaning about 'them' coming here?

Suggest you look up the word 'alien'. You may find I was refering such things as FGM, forced marriages, female oppression, honour killings and ethnic hatreds. Granted there are serious problems in the old Dart with these issues now. We need to be carefull who we allow in, even from the UK or NZ.

Grateful,
Maha Krayan Abdo sounds to be a very astute person and an achiever. A person to admire. I am interested to learn more. Do you have a link for more info, especially like to know her thoughts and feelings about FGM and forced marriages.

But Banjo

I was agreeing with you.

'Them' need to be kept out at all costs.

All of 'Them' that do not agree with what it is to be 'an Aussie'.

But... what is that?

As that (Muslim) woman on Q&A asked the 'only Aussie practices welcome here' questioner the other night.

As for horrendous acts of cruelty.... indeed, we should avoid that here, including the barbaric practices of circumcision for non-health reasons.

Or is that an acceptable barbaric practice?

grateful: >>Whatever! We are both working for the same thing: a civilised environment to realise our potential and allow our children to do the same.<<


Firstly to apologize to Foxy for deviating from the core of the thread. I appreciate your sentiment in starting this topic.
But although there are many positive things brought to our society by the Muslims as individuals, they are outweighed by the "blatantly obvious" negatives they bring as a collective.

They are over represented in our juvenile justice system, flowing onto our courts and jails, flowing onto over representation as social services recipients. It is almost a career path, second only to the poor indigenous citizens caught in a similar spiral. We imported a social issue to satisfy political ends, and we as individual citizens are paying for it because of poor policing driven by "politically correct" politicians with an agenda. It is like branch stacking but you do it by electorate. The Libs got a boost with the post war immigration boom because many immigrants would not vote for anything resembling socialism. Labor is assured the Muslim vote because Muslims will not vote for anything resembling the right wing.

Grateful, re your quote. Are you sure that the "same thing" you want for your children is wanted by the other. The other may want all the same positive things for their kids with one addition, that your kids must conform to their culture, just because you are a live and let live individual others think differently. Do not fight for the freedom of some that would take yours away.

Foxy I know you have a "belly" full of disdain at world geo politics but as I said to grateful, do not fight for the freedom of one who would take yours away. Individuals are not important, their deeds are not important, except when they act in unison, and they would act in unison against your culture and your political system. The first world has exploited the Middle East, I didn't do it personally, I get exploited every day. So I do not carry a guilt that would allow my culture to be torn apart by the previously exploited who I gave a lending hand to.

The Blue Cross,
No, I will not follow your strawman.

Foxy,
The purpose of my posting was to try and ascertain why you think poor public attitudes to muslims is undeserving and what the misconceptions are that we hold about muslims. I still cannot see why you think this.

It is easy to list many negatives as I have, but finding positives is far more difficult. Just being muslim is hardly a positive.

I think Sonofgloin expresses it well when he said "But although there are many positive things brought to our society by the Muslims as individuals, they are outweighed by the "blatantly obvious" negatives they bring as a collective".

Funny thing, there are more Buddhists here than muslims but they enjoy a far better collective reputation than muslims. I am sure some break the laws too, but not in the name of their religion. That could be the difference? They just seem to go about their business without any fuss. Never have I heard of Buddhists publicly chanting "kill the Jews"

Dear Banjo, SOG,

Thanks for your inputs.

I can't go against myself. I believe in the
humanity of people, and taking people as I
find them. This world of ours has a violent
history. People have been killing each other
for centuries. Russians killing fellow Russians,
Germans killing Germans, Muslims killing
fellow Muslims, Catholics and Christians killing
millions, and Nations fighting
each other over lots of things.

In Australia, we've had many waves of migrants,
and each wave had difficulties in the beginning.
But each eventually adapted, assimilated and
enriched our communities in so many ways.
Muslims have been living here peacefully for
decades. They aren't new arrivals as the media
implies.

I believe that we should dwell on what unites us,
as human beings, rather than build walls
and dwell on what separates
us. I wouldn't presume that I have a greater
capacity to love than strangers do,
or that my lifestyle is
the best for everyone, and they should comply with it.
We have laws and rules that protect everyone, and these
laws are the ones that people of this country need to
adhere to. Everything else is a matter of choice, as
long as it doesn't harm others.

I've been criticised for starting this thread and not
starting others, on other groups. Anybody who knows
me knows that I have started threads on a very wide
array of topics in the past - including ones about
the contributions that migrants have made to Australia.

I started this thread as I explained in my opening post -
not because I have some sort of "mandate" from the
Muslim community, as one poster suggested (I presume
he wasn't serious - just having a go at me), but
because I got inspired after the recent exhibit that
I saw at the Immigration Museum, on Afghan Cameleers.
It inspired me to start this thread - due to the many
recent negative threads that have been appearing
lately on this Forum against the "evils" of Islam.
I thought it was time to create a bit of balance,
and sanity to the discussions.

Dear foxy

your first paragraph was hysterically sad.

You first make an assertion "I believe in humanity"

Then... (I couldn't believe this) you proceeded to hack and chop and destroy that very assertion with real world evidence.

But surely.. having just detailed the sins of humanity in your paragraph.. are you not also derailing your argument?

Others might be tempted to wonder about how your mind works?

If you want to be optimistic fine, but don't you think it's a wise course not to allow that optimism to overide clear well founded argument and evidence to the contrary?

Allow it for 'you' sure,....but if you try to apply it outside your own small circle of those who might share it... the spring will suddenly and explosively go SPROINGGGGGGGGG.

SOG..classic and concise and accurate "do not fight for the freedom of one who would take yours away."

Probably the best comment on the thread :)

Dear Al,

What are you having problems in
understanding?

History? The actions of human beings?
Or the fact that I still have faith
and belief in humanity? And that once
people understand the social authorship
of their lives and futures, they can become
an irresistible force in history.

Whether we choose to destroy our civilisation
or save it -it is a collective decision -
and it is one that hopefully will be made
within our lifetime.

I know that if more and more nuclear weapons
are built, and if more sophisticated means of
delivering them are devised, and if more and more
nations get control of these vile devices, then
we surely risk our own destruction. If ways are
found however to reverse that process, then we can
divert unprecedented energy and resources to the
real problems that face us. Problems like poverty,
disease, hunger, and so on. I hope and trust that
our ultimate choice will be to embrace the life on
the bright and lovely planet on which all of us
share our adventure.

Foxy,

The resurgence of Islamic fundamentalism started in Iran in response to the actions of the Shah.

The Shah was sponsored and installed with the assistance of the US who had helped overthrow the previous democratically elected government (as they did in Iraq) to promote the interests of oil companies who were under threat of nationalisation.

While in power, the Shah literally killed off all the moderate opposition leaving the Khomeini as the only viable leader in the popular uprising that followed.

Christian Fundamentalism rose in the US as a result of direct right-wing political representation instead of remaining as lobby groups.

I suppose all these Australian Muslims could see the benefits of migrating to a Christian country, leaving their Muslim homelands, in a way Christian Australians would not understand.

However, it seems strange to me that, having fled the inequities and inadequacies of a medieval social order and Sharia law, they should seek to set up the same thing here....

But there is a name for it

Masochism

As for “contribution” well, individuals make “contributions”. Not religions and you can be of any faith you like...... well you can make that personal choice in Australia... but not in many of Muslim countries.

And maybe that is one of the core contributions which Australian Christians have made, to have developed a culture of tolerance unknown in Muslim countries.

Foxy... what I don't understand is this:

1/ Foxy says she has faith in humanity.....

Or the fact that I still have faith
and belief in humanity? And that once
people understand the social authorship
of their lives and futures, they can become
an irresistible force in history.

2/ But Foxy preceded that expression of belief with a demolition derby of history which showed her belief in humanity is misplaced.

The 2 ideas are simply incompatable Foxy.

If you list all the sins of humanity.. and then say "But I believe in humanity" its like.."irrational". becuase you already proved that premise to be baseless.

You seem to maintain your optimism on the following grounds...

And that once
people understand the social authorship
of their lives and futures, they can become
an irresistible force in history.

Foxy the only 'irresistable' force in history has been the blade of a sword or barrell of a gun (or many) Islam, Marxism, Fascism

and the expansion of religious ideas... 'Christianity' for the first 300 yrs. (no Christian swords)

If you believe 'ideas' will win the day I am sad to inform you that history has been there..done that... but just like poor old Joseph was doted on by the old Pharaoh.... the book of Exodus begins with these words... (verse 8)

8 Then a new king, who did not know about Joseph, came to power in Egypt. 9 "Look," he said to his people, "the Israelites have become much too numerous for us."

I guess that pharaoh was not a fan of 'multiculturalism' :)

Speaking of which.. Kurgistan is experiencing a multicultural meltdown as we speak. Kurgys agin the Uzbeks... as I've said a 1000 times.. "when crisis or shortage comes.. people go tribal"
When r u going to catch up with reality ?

Stern,
I cannot confirm this thought but I think that Muslims migrating to a western cultured country see themselves as pioneers for Islam. I can see no other explanation for them wanting to be in a country with alien culture and laws.

This is akin to christian missionaries going to the far flung places in the world, to spread the word of god.

Once they have sufficient numbers, they can then influence the laws of that country and bring about changes more in line with their religious aand cultural beliefs.

The only confirmation I have on this is a quote from a former Algerian president who said that one day millions of arabs will go to Europe and conquer it with our sons, the wombs of our women will give us victory. I can dig out the actual quote if you wish.

"[Deleted for abuse. Poster suspended.]
Posted by Ginx, Sunday, 13 June 2010 2:26:25 PM"

(I was suspended for 24 hours).
_______________________________

Hard times are upon us. We do not need the pesky Muslim. Our own Aryan brothers are vengeful.

I write from a secret location. The suspension is still in place. Would that it were just that, but no!..., the Dark Age is here.

They send people around to inflict the most heinous punishment!.!.!.! I am missing my two front teeth-which is handy- because I am now able to suck pureed carrot through a straw-which fits nicely through the gap. I have eyes like Wankwank and Fooley our pandas. I am in traction hanging upside down with my keyboard hanging by a thread.

My Muslim friend Ey and Tawkin have viewed this thread with sadness. They are surprised that some posters here seek so strongly to emulate the behaviour of those who they (posters) so soundly condemn.

They are sad that my warning to POX an' BOZ was so erroneously misunderstood. They knew that if these SSD's were to chew through the straps, their trousers would fall down!-the belt buckle-thus freed from restraint-would rise up and strike the head forcefully thus causing brain injury! I shouted a warning! To no avail...

It was an act of compassion. We are so terribly hurt by my suspension. I have suffered-and continue to suffer greatly.

Tis a hard world to be sure...to be sure.

EanT will deflect all further evil injustice vested upon me-address all concerns to them.
__________________________

Ey Fahtiboomboom, and Tawkin Bolox. (Which some of you have been).
__________________________

So; I have further sinned. I have deviated from the perceptum!

I shall suspend myself.

Ah! cruel world.

Dear Al,

Yes, history is full of atrocities
committed by human beings. But surely
you must also recognize that history
is also full of the good done by human
beings as well. Aren't you optimistic
about our future on this planet?
I would have thought that as a self-
proclaimed religious man, you would be,
or are you only interested in the hereafter?

What I was trying to point out was that for
millennia, people have hoped for peace in
their time. Today, as usual, there is no
shortage of grand proposals for peace, yet
wars continue as before, and
indeed, we are likely to be disappointed
if we expect dramatic results in the form of
an immediate end to war and militarism.

The prospects for peace however look much
more encouraging, once we recognize
that war and peace are really opposite ends of a
continuum, and the movement along this continuum,
in either direction, is the result of social
processes that develop and change overtime under the
influence of government policies and popular pressures.

Today we have nuclear deterrence, arms control, and
international peace-making mechanisms for restraining
conflict among its members. These things may not always
prevent war, but they surely help make it less likely.

Anyway, back onto the topic...

Australia is predominantly a Christian country and
therefore much of its thought is governed by
Christian education. If we look back to our school
days, the teaching we encountered was predominantly
pro-Christian. Therefore as adults some
people are suspicious of anything that differs
from the norm.This has happened
throughout the history of each wave of new arrivals.
The fear of the unknown. The current global conflicts
of course don't help matters.
A Muslim extremist blows up military
personnel in his own country, to some people -
all Muslims in Australia are seen as a threat.
Yet few would question the role of our soldiers
fighting in Muslim countries.

It is sad, that most people only see things
from their own perspective and don't try to understand
or view things from those of others.

Dear Ginxy,

Welcome back!

Foxy" >>Dear Al, Yes, history is full of atrocities
committed by human beings<<

Foxy that is the problem in a nut shell. But if I may refine the comment to high light the severity of our ignorance, "the present has always been full of atrocities committed by human beings"...

We absolutely never learn from our mistakes. We know that life experience brings a perspective as to "what" is really important during life, but by the time we have understood our life lessons we are ready to shuffle off this mortal realm, and are too old to be involved in the decision making processes that rule mankind’s controllable destiny.

My solution to mankind’s stupidity is easy, we should live for 200 years, and thereby the knowledge of the first sixty years could be drawn upon for the next 140 years. Spose what I am saying is that self gratification will never leave our psyche, we are marionettes guided by our individual degree of greed.

Although there are great displays of humanity that give us hope that we could be better than we are, it is always buggered up by someone who wants what you have. The problem could be the short amount of time we have to accumulate what our greed and ego require.

Poooor GINX.. sheesh..she is writing from Larundel ? :) hug hug.

Foxy.. you ask:

But surely
you must also recognize that history
is also full of the good done by human
beings as well. Aren't you optimistic
about our future on this planet?

Good point... I am optimistic.. I guess.. but not so much.
I saw something on TV a day or 2 ago where some bloke was showing his 'new chip' under his skin... this concerns me (code for freaks me out).. read Revelation 13:16-17 and you'll see why.

My optimism however is founded on the certainty of the return of our Lord..not on mans ability to redeem himself socially.

I honestly think there is too much at stake for powers to just all get along.. you would see what I mean if you saw Jon Steward on the Daily show last night. "They've discovered massive amounts of (various ores) STUFF in Afghanistan..worth a trillion dollars"

Stewart noted "If we bomb the crap out of you now... just over some taliban idiots.. WAIT TILL WE GO after that STUFF" :)...

Of course..he was trying to be funny but there was a lot of truth in his take.

I'll try to be more optimistic. Seems to me though that evil will try it's best to advance.. and most of us wait till it's nearly too late.
732.. Tours and
1683..Vienna.

On both occasions.. were it not for providential circumstances.. in the first case a well trained and disciplined army of Franks.. and in the second the fact that Ottoman Allies the Hungarians held back...we would not be having this discussion.. or if we were it would be in Arabic.

I was mainly criticizing your logic, which seemed more wishful thinking than real based on the way you presented your case.

Dear SOG,

All we need is new ways
of thinking to cope with the nuclear age.
It's here that writers, with their concern
for the human condition and their special
skills with language, can enable us to
imagine the horrific reality of nuclear arms
and nerve us to build an alternative future.

As the writer Dorothy Green once remarked:

"No one has the right to exhort writers to
write on certain subjects or take up
particular moral stances. But if they love
their art, we can expect them to be on the
side of life rather than death, on the side
of being, rather than non-being, to prefer
the beauty of this planet to its desecration,
and to use fiction to reveal truths.
We need above all to fall in love with this
planet, which, as far as we know, is the only
one carefully balanced to sustain human life
without assistance from somewhere else.

In the most destructive age in history, the word
'creative' is more mindlessly bandied about
than ever before; a fact we need to ponder as writers.
The truth is that human beings came into a world
prepared for them. If we blow it up, we cannot
hope to put it together again. We cannot 'create'
something out of nothing: even the greatest artist
did not invent colour, nor the greatest musician
sound, nor the greatest writer speech. All we can do
is discover, imitate, re-arrange or destroy.

Our worst illusion is that we might return to the
state of primitive man. But he did not have polluted soil,
poisoned streams, irradiated game and vegetable foods."

Whether we choose to destroy our civilization or save it
is a collective decision. And it is through collective
action that ordinary people with few resources, other
than their own determination can change a national
consensus for war to a national consensus for peace.
This was done with the ending of the Vietnam war -
it can be done again, in our lifetime.

Back on subject...

I've got several "must-read" websites
for anyone with the interest and time.
They are well worth the time, I promise ...

http://www.australiansagainstracism.org/code/resources08.html

http://www.australiansagainstracism.org/code/resources04.html

http://www.australiansagainstracism.org/code/resources06.html

Westralis,
You said on Sunday, 13 June 2010 4:54:52 AM "For Jews and Muslims to teach that Jesus is a God is a blasphemy most heinous punishable by death".

So you believe the death penalty is applicable for such blasphemy. Who is currently applying this penalty? Not too many Jews are applying this penalty. I have several Orthodox Jewish relatives inclding a Rabbi we communicate admirably.

Do you believe this statement??

Stand aside.... Pew Surveys to the rescue, again....

How's this for those anti-Muslim Christians on this space?

"As in other recent Pew Global Attitudes surveys, this year’s survey finds only limited support for terrorism among Muslim publics. There is no country in which a majority of Muslims endorse suicide bombing, voice confidence in Osama bin Laden, or express a favorable view of al Qaeda.

"Still, a significant number of Muslims in some countries do embrace these positions. This is particularly true in Nigeria, where nearly half express confidence in bin Laden and offer a positive opinion of al Qaeda, and about a third say suicide attacks are at least sometimes justifiable. Support for suicide bombing is even higher in Lebanon, although virtually no Lebanese Muslims express a positive view of bin Laden or the organization he leads. Meanwhile, in Turkey across all three measures there is almost no support for extremism."

Of course, Nigeria is yet another Western ally, and full of evangelising Scripurue Union fruitcakes busy invading the lives of Muslims in an effort to steal their children and sell them into Heavenly Slavery into any number of Pentacostal pits-of-despair.

Maybe Lebanon still smarts from all the war crimes committed there under the banner of one God or another?

Oh dear, I nearly forgot, they are all the same Abrahamic god aren't they?

Who knows, but it just shows how 'religion' can impose violence on us all, if only as a political vehicle to carry unhappy mugs along and give them not only an excuse to behave badly, but also a 'positive' reward for doing so.

Foxy,
Comment on the links you gave.

The first link is informative about muslims.

The second link is also informative, but I could not care less about what clothes people wear unless it prevents facial identifacation, Like a helmet or veil. This would only apply in certain circumstances.

The third link is pure spin and sets out to distort the true facts. It simply tries to make out any objection to the 'illegals' is racism, which is simply untrue. No respect for the author. Obviously this groups agenda embraces more than their title states. That is false pretenses.

To critisize a persons conduct is NOT racism

To critisize a religion is NOT racism

To critisize a culture or aspect of same is NOT racism

Banjo
The term racism does get bandied about a bit and the race card is often misused which only serves to desensitise the act of racism and the awful effects it can have on a group of people.

Criticisms of religion and cultural practices is not necessarily racist but on occasion the criticism may originate from racist viewpoint or one of fear.

Criticism is one thing, villification another.

Dear Banjo,

I know that when you post, you
post from the heart, and you're
one person who at least tries to
see things from various perspectives
and not just simply your own.

I appreciate your taking the time to
read the websites I gave. And fair
enough, if you don't agree with the
last one. Dr Eva Sallis,
does not have any hidden agenda. She's
speaks from a position of experience
however, especially as far immigrants go.
She's worked with them over many years in a
wide variety of situations. And has dealt
with many of their problems.
She's also from an immigrant background
herself, and cares deeply about her work.

Dear TBC,

Thanks for your input.

Much appreciated.

Dear Pelly,

Always a voice of reason.

Pelican,
I would like to get your interpretation of the words 'critisism' and 'vilifacation'.

Foxy,
I did not say that AAR had a hidden agenda. I said they embrace a wider agenda than their name. Obvoiusly as advocates for 'illegal' immigrants or boat people. There is nothing hidden about that.

I do not think much of Eva Sallis's handling of accuracy in that document.

Dear Banjo,

My apologies.

I misunderstood.

And, you are of course entitled to your
opinion.

Anyway, while I'm here I would like
to Thank each and every poster
who contributed to this thread.
It went on for much longer than I had
anticipated - and there have been a
wide variety of responses - which was
to be expected considering the topic
that seems to produce emotive reactions.

Banjo, I'm not sure that Pelly is still
reading this thread so in answer to your
question perhaps the following website
may be useful:

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=2893

For me this thread has now run its course.
I don't have anything new to add.
So you all on another thread.

Banjo
There was a recent case mentioned on another thread on OLO where one neighbour engaged in a continuous racial tirade and torment of their adjoining neighbours including swearing racial obscenities, dumping rubbish and other acts of harassment.

This is an obvious case of racial villification but I concede the lines are sometimes vague and blurred which is why any legislation on villification should be clearly defined.

I do not see criticism of religion to be a breach unless of course there is continuous harassment of an individual similar to the case above purely based on race or religious orientation.

Dear Pelly.... with that last post you set the stage for my new discussion on human rights.

You say Vilification legislation should be clearly defined.. I suggest chucking it as far as we can into the muddiest part of the Yarra.

The law we have is draconian and designed to favor the complainer...which opens the door for widespread abuse.

Canada.. the human rights basketcase of the world.. is a good example.

This is part of the problem with our law.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rarta2001265/s9.html

9. Motive and dominant ground irrelevant

(1) In determining whether a person has contravened section 7 or 8, the person's motive in engaging in any conduct is irrelevant.

That's mind numbing. It sure as hell matters in cases of death.. "intent"..."motive" make the diff between manslaughter and wilful murder.
HOw in this world can 'motive' not be relevant ? ? ?

This is clear evidence of the Marxist/Frankfurt school/Marcusian/Lefist movement to destroy freedom and genuine criticism.

There is sooooo much SUBJECTIVE rubbish between the ears of HREOC commissioners..they need a good decoke and valve grind. ( a Port and Polish would not go astray either)

Dear Al,

Not everything is about you, as another poster
pointed out.

In any case -

Kindly re-read the following website:

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=2893

Take a look at your own post in the comments section.
You seem to have one set of rules ( excuses/explanations)
for one set of people, and different rules for others...

If you'd take your blinkers off perhaps you'd see
the full picture, but I won't hold my breath.

Westralis,
You said on Sunday, 13 June 2010 4:54:52 AM "For Jews and Muslims to teach that Jesus is a God is a blasphemy most heinous punishable by death".

So you believe the death penalty is applicable for such blasphemy. Who is currently applying this penalty? Not too many Jews are applying this penalty. I have several Orthodox Jewish relatives inclding a Rabbi we communicate admirably.

Do you believe this statement??

We still do not have an answer from Westralis - What is he/she hiding? It is this type of attitude that cannot participate in a democratic secular / Christian society. It reeks of primitive violent religion to "kill the infidels".

The Federal Police need to visit this person as he/ she cannot be permitted to espouse such incitement to violence in the name of his god in a multicultural society. This attitude is primitive sharia law. Christian teachings can be criticized but certainly not apply death penalty to its adherents. Revealed in such is the true face of Islamic belief.

Dear Philo,

Stop this nonsense.

Is the American, Randall Terry, the true face
of Christianity?

Google him, and see what he has to say.

Pelican,
Your given example reminds me of the elderly widow that lived in SW Sydney and she was similarly harassed by the Lebs. The police could do nothing, but the object was to make her move so they could buy the place cheap.

I call this serious harassment, although there were race differences, the motives were not racial, even though racial slurs were often used.

I am not sure where the line is between critisism and vilifacation.

I tend to think one is based on fact. e.g. Saying I do not accept the eating of dog meat. As distinct from accusing a person of being dirty or unclean because they eat dog meat.

Can you come up with any other, ot better examples?

Maybe if ones agrees it is criticism, but if one does not it is vilifacation?

Foxy,
It is better you read the New Testament to understand Christ's position, and how he treated opponents. He never encouraged or stated religious laws to kill blasphemers. People use the name of "Christ" every day in cursings and Christians view it as blasphemy, but they have never advocated the person be put to death.

They rather pray for repentance of the offender that they might respect the revelation of God in Jesus. Thousands have done just that.

Such advocating of the death penalty is the ugly face of Islam under Sharia. Try claiming Jesus is the Son of God in a country under Sharia.

Dear Philo,

I'm not going to enter into a debate of
the ugly side of any religion, be it
Christianity or Islam. Fundamentalists
exist in all religions. This thread
is about the positive contributions of
Australian Muslims, who by the way have
been part of the fabric of this country
for centuries. Pointing out the negatives
in their religion does not achieve
anything constructive. Most people who
come to this country do so with the hope
of building a better life here, and
contributing to our society.

However as Dr Eva Sallis writes:

"Prejudice creates what it fears by
cutailing young people's prospects.
Yound Arab Australians are increasingly
ghettoized in Sydney's poor suburbs,
where they struggle for education and jobs.
Their families are often prejudiced against
non-Arab Australians, the racism of the
minority and that of the broader society
reinforce each other."

Sallis tells us that, "I have Muslim friends
who used to feel that they were Australians,
but now cannot identify themselves in the
negative space created for them in our
community. I have non-Muslim friends who
are furious at being mistaken for Muslims
because of their Middle Eastern background.
They are doing all they can to differentiate
themselves from people they too are starting
to openly dismiss."

Therefore it appears that a volatile part of
our community is deeply alienated, unable to
belong. As Sallis points out, "another volatile
part has retreated to an irretrievable past
and a mythical notion of racial purity..."

I agree with Dr Sallis that "if contemporary
Australians are to live at ease with ourselves,
we need more education, less fear mongering
and not least, greater honesty about the
culture of racism that is so damaging to us
all."

And please Philo, no more bible preaching -
or anti Islam quotes. Each of us has our
own faith and beliefs - you have no way of
knowing what exactly strangers believe in,
or don't.

So Foxy you take me to task for identifying persons on this thread who believe in the death penalty for blasphemy. I do not note anywhere where you have taken Westralis to task for his vile view of murder for blasphemers. You speak with double tongue and disloyalty to our Australian democratic heritage.

Posted by Westralis, Sunday, 13 June 2010 4:54:52 AM "Interesting that Christians (more so American Xian’s) continue to push the mythical Judeo-Christian bond, an irritant that Jews find most offensive as the two faiths couldn’t be further apart. Islam has more in common with Christianity with much of Jesus’ teachings contained in the Qur’an but the Muslim’s don’t bestow divinity on Jesus for to them he was just a man the same as Mohammad. For Jews and Muslims to teach that Jesus is a God is a blasphemy most heinous punishable by death."

Wow Philo, I thought you were being ironic in your earlier posts. You've lost the plot, mate.

I had thought you were one of the less offensive Christian fundies here, but it seems you're just as hateful as the rest of them.

You really aren't in any position to criticise Muslim fundamentalism. You're every bit as loony to us unbelievers as they are, and far more dangerous because your lot has undue influence on governments in Australia.

Philo,
Westralis did not indicate that he believed that such blasphemy should be punishable by death. He said "jews and muslims......."

I may have missed it, but I looked through all his 4 posts here and did not see anything that stated his religion either.

Just because one poster asks a question, another is not obligated to answer. He can ignore if he wants as I sometimes do, or I have other things to do.

Dear Philo,

I'm not taking you to task for what Westralis
posted at all. Please re-read my posts.
As for my taking some sort of stand against
democratic principles - on the contrary,
I am taking a stand for precisely those principles.

Philo,
This is what Westralis said, quote "For Jews and Muslims to teach that Jesus is a God is a blasphemy most heinous punishable by death."

He does not say that he supports or agrees with that.

It is now over 12 hours since your last post and nearly 12 hours since I alerted you to the fact that you misread what Westralis said.

I think it is about time you apologised to Foxy and Westralis for your comments. You are in the wrong and out of order.

If anything you should be thanking Westralis because, if You can validate what he said, It gives you another thing with which you can use against Islam.

Is it not the Christian thing to do. i.e. Apologise and repent when in the wrong?

Banjo: << Is it not the Christian thing to do. i.e. Apologise and repent when in the wrong? >>

Not if some of OLO's more vocal Christians are anything to go by.

I'll change my mind (repent) and apoligise to Westralis when he has clarified his position was merely quoting the Koranic view, and it not his own.

Banjo
I do understand your concerns. The lines are indeed tricky to navigate which is why we should not enter lightly into changing the laws without understanding some of the possible ramifications.

In relation to the women who was being harrassed by her neighbours, I know of a similar case in WA where nothing was done due to ethnic sensitivities. This is PC gone made. Bad behaviour should be admonished regardless of the ethnicity of the perpetrator or victim.

It is perfectly rational to expect equality under the law in a secular democracy. In that way minorities and majorities rights are both valued.

I've just come back from a lovely
lunch with my mother, who's suffering
from dementia. Today, was a particularly
good day for her. She remembered so many
things.

I asked mum how she felt about Australia.
She spoke with gratitude of the multicultural
nature of Australian society, which meant
that there is no single national identity
but a gathering of many cultures, and that
this to her was one of the most unique and
rewarding aspects of living in Australia.
That the nature of being Australian was to be
part of this diversity. The wide and varied
gathering of "identities" was in keeping with the
sense of potential and openness so many people
enjoyed on coming here.

She felt privileged not
only to have been able to make a home here but also
to have found her own sense of belonging.

My mother is only one of many, who has come from
somewhere else and settled in Australia. Hers is
only one story of the ups and downs of adapting
to life in Australia, but it provides a window
on the experience of leaving one home in order
to create another.

I've recently read the experiences of several
Australian Muslim women in a magazine about
why they choose - or choose not to - wear the
Islamic veil.

For example, Mahboba Rawi, 45,
came to Australia as a refugee from Afghanistan in
1984. She runs Mahboba's Promise, a non-profit
volunteer organisation that supports women and
children in Afghanistan. She wears a blue headscarf
as part of her Muslim faith and as a tribute to her
Afghan heritage.

She explains, "When I arrived in Australia, there
wasn't much reaction to the Muslim community.
I never experienced any racism. After 9/11,
everything changed. Some Muslims are scared to wear
their scarves; they don't feel comfortable going
out in public. But I am one of the luckiest
Muslim women in the country because I have been
able to build trust between my community
and the Australian community. Even though I am
wearing the scarf, in my mind, I am an Aussie."

cont'd ...

cont'd ...

Dr Soraya Alami, runs a medical practice
in Sydney's Lakemba, a hub of Lebanese
Australian life. Around 80% of her patients
are Muslim women and children. Most of these
women wear a headscarf, but Dr Alami has chosen
not to. "I don't feel there is a need to take
the headscarf. My understanding of the headscarf
is in its historical and cultural context.
Hisotrically, it was safer for women to cover
themselves to protect themselves from violence and
sexual expolitation. In today's society, women's
rights are recognised and protected by law."

Faduma Mousse,51, is a community health worker from
Melbourne. She came to Australia as a refugee from
Somalia in 1995. She has five children, aged 23 to 31,
and 15 grandchildren. Faduma wears a headscarf as an
expression of her Muslim faith, but does not cover
her face. She says, "Sometimes people see you wearing
the scarf and they call you names. But you just take it
in your stride. Wearing a burqa is a choice. To tell
you the truth, I think students going to school with
a covered face - well, it's up to them - but I
personally don't agree with that. My children all grew
up here and they speak to each other in English.
My grandchildren were all born here - they speak
maybe three words in Somali. I am still Somalian and a
Muslim, but I see myself as more Australian now."

These extracts were taken from, "The Australian Women's
Weekly," June 2010 issue.

Philo,
You do not dissappoint. I had a christian upbringing and the reason I am no longer religious is simply because I found that adults did not practice the religion I was taught as a child.

It is common for those claiming to be Christian to lie, cheat and worm their way out when they know they have done something wrong.

If you were being honest, you would admitt that Westralis did not say he believed in the blasphemy that he said Muslims and Jews believed.

Your not unusual for a christian. I recall the bloke, who was Treasurer for Bob Hawke, saying it was OK for Hawke to lie to Keating about the party leadership. He was an ordained christian priest, but I have forgotten his name. Just the one you would expect to have the highest moral standards and integrity. I don't believe that Jesus would lie.

Then more recently, there has been the exposure of church men who were 'kiddy fiddlers'. Being religous does not do much for many I am afraid. i could quote more, who are church goers, that lie and deceive.

I believe my standards are higher than most Christians.

On yers Banjo... being a 'Christian' is not sufficient to guarantee good behaviour, as you point out.

Unfortunately, the 'good' Christians often deny having anything to do with those people of their ilk who misbehave, describing them as 'not real Christians'.

Of course, there is no such thing as 'a real Christian' anywhere, because, being people, we are all different.

Note how the ACL pretends to voice the concerns of 'Christians', while not ever being able to say precisely who they speak for, beyond the very small cabal of the owners of their private company, posing as a community lobby group.

And what about the Pope, who sets himself up to speak for catholics the world over....yet, who, apart from the fundie maniacs within the RC mob, pays any attention to him?

How many RC women in the West allow the Pope into their sexual lives?

But they should all do so, since he 'speaks for them'....if only because women are allowed no voice in that woebegone church, or not voice above a mouse-like decibel anyway.

Foxy's post... while Australians like to regard themselves as being unique in the world as a 'melting pot' of cultures, my last visit to the UK quite shocked me with the wide range of people from all over the world, all settled as 'Poms', with their children speaking in regional accents.

But I never heard anyone there remarking on how 'tolerant' and 'multi-cultural' they were.

Of course.... much of the change is deeply resented,as it is here too, but that is no different to the resentment felt in the 'home counties' when the 'yobbos' from the north invade and 'take our jobs'.

(I was in the pub, in my home town, having a pint or two with some fellow cyclists of my age and older, about 10 of 'em, when I realised they were all foreigners, from 'oop norf', and I, who had not lived there since about 1970, was the only native.)

Should we ask the Indigenous peoples here what they think about their lot, or would that be another thread?

Why can't Westralis speak for him/her self so the view expressed can be clarified? Let us have some genuine honesty, after all this subject is attempting to find positive contributions Muslims have made to Australia. If you believe his/her statement is a positive view of Muslims then you contribute to the underminining of our democratic and free culture.

Such a comment made by Westralis is certainly not a positive contribution to our multicultural way of life. Either he/she believes what they said or they stated it to stirr up conflict. Which means their motives as being dishonest.

Philo, I think you've just reinforced Banjo's point.

I rarely agree with him, but he's spot-on with respect to your indefensible previous coment.

You know you're out of order. Man up and apologise.

Well folks, I've had my say on this
topic.

I think I'm done.

I might just curl up with
The Macquarie Dictionary of
Australian Abusive Terms.

I obviously need to broaden my
vocabulary...

Philo,
You are the one who reproduced Westralis's part post. Now point out where he said anything about agreeing with Jewish and Muslim blasphemy beliefs.

Westralis does not have to further explain. He made a simple statement in which he said that Jews and muslims believed certain things. No reference to his own beliefs.

I think I was gracious in suggesting that you misread his statement.

Foxy misread something I said here the other day and apologised, no big deal, it has happened to me but i like to think that once i am made aware of it, I apologise and retract.

Read again what Westralis stated and be objective. Surely you have to see you erred.

Blue Cross,
I do not get involved in religious debate.

Banjo

We have our disagreements, but I do identify with what you have to say here. I experienced a childhood being taught Christianity at Sunday School and in the public school system. I grew up to see that the adults rarely practised what they preached. OLO is a concentration of such people.

I have apologised where I thought I had gone really too far. It is something that re-opens communicative paths. I am sure it is something that Jesus (if he existed) would support.

Isn't there something in the bible/Qur'an/Torah/Budhhism etc about being humble?

Severin,
My upbringing was very similar to yours, with same outcome.

Believe it or not, I once received a prize (a prayer book) for best attendance at Sunday school. Mums insistance of course! Got some of us (8)kids out of the road while she prepared sunday roast.

While we will continue to have different views on things, I smile when I see your name because it reminds me of the post in which you gave the link to the research into the shape of the human penis. I have never laughed so much since I first read 'The Loaded Dog', Henry Lawson. Has to have been the funniest thing ever on OLO.

Gee Banjo

Well, at least you can't accuse me of being uptight about sex. And if I can leave someone smiling, well my job is done.

What is common to all people irrespective of race, sex or religion. Laughter. If only we could bottle it and spike the drinks of certain religious leaders.

Apologies to Foxy for veering off topic.

Dear Severin and Banjo,

Please continue.

Your positiveness enhances this thread!

I was beginning to get a bit down -
you guys have uplifted me once again...

Severin,
I consider a girl that can post a link on that subject would have no hangups about sex at all. I am confident you can discuss any subject at all. Yabby was involved in the thread too.

My mind boggles, when I think of what went on in the Uni Lab when the research was being carried out. They even gave the best recipe for artificial semem. Some people get all the good projects.

I still cannot help my wife vacume pack the bulk meat into bags ready for freezing. The sight of her using the hand held vacume pump makes me laugh and she hunts me. I blame you for that.

Hope you can get to post it again one day.

Banjo

That is just hilarious. Your mind has wandered into realms from which you may never return.

Cautionary tale (strange but true) a nurse (close friend) told me. More than one patient has arrived in at emergency with their favourite appendage stuck in a vacuum cleaner tube.

Cheers

Banjo

You do realise that it was over a year ago I published this link?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=secrets-of-the-phallus

Foxy

I know this is so far from the contributions of Muslims you can get. This probably means the thread has run its course. And you have achieved your goal of creating far greater awareness of the positives of Muslim Australians which obviously far outweigh the negatives.

Dear Severin,

Yes, I agree. This thread has now well
and truly run its course.

I hope that I've made people aware not
to have an irrational, inflexible
attitude toward an entire category of
people. That its not very fair to
generalize and so ignore the
differences among individuals.

Anyway, I am happy with the result.
It certainly hasn't been dull.

Take care, and I'll see you on another thread.

Dear Proxy...you said:

//What I can't understand is how an educated person who has access to the facts, can gloss over them as if they have no relevance.//

Speaking from experience.. of having a long and detailed interaction with a white University professor who became a Muslim,
(detailed as in each of his responses were like 2500 word essays or more)...- I can assure you the 'zone' where they dwell mentally is one hell of a scary place.

It is so dark beyond description.. on a par with the rationalizatons of NAMBLA members about "loving" little boys.. but it becomes very philosophical.. and they end up squirming this way and that..

In the end, you realize they became "Muslim" for entirely selfish reasons.. the key is.. that once they have passed the psychological threshold of "If Muhammad did it..it's ok" then the world is their nefarious oyster.. it all follows from that..and when "Mohammads" behavior is questioned.. that psychological disposition immediately goes to work in ways such as "Well... how do we know what is right or wrong"? whereupon.. 'right' and 'wrong'...'good and evil' are given completely different meanings so as to align with Muhammad's life.

When you see how he did not care two hoots that his soldiers were raping captives of one of the tribes.. *that* is where it becomes awfully dark and heinous. That this professor could be so irrational scares me not just from a theological viewpoint, but also a social and educational.

Interestingly..he said "The way to argue effectively with a Muslim is not on the level of Muhammad's life"....but he said there are weak points beside that which are more effective.. he didn't elaborate.

ALGOREisRICH,
They do not recognise life is about an intimate personal relationship whith God by imitating the pure character of God as revealed in Jesus Messiah; but about submission to Allah and the prophet.