"EXTRAORDINARY new powers will allow police to arrest and fine people for "causing annoyance" to World Youth Day participants and permit partial strip searches at hundreds of Sydney sites, beginning today.
...
People who fail to comply will be subject to a $5500 fine.
...
The president of the NSW Bar Association, Anna Katzmann, SC, described the regulations as "unnecessary and repugnant"."

-=-=

Can we now claim that the idea we are in a police state is at least plausible? Remember that it happens in small grades, bit by bit.You can't be remotely "irritable" to the participants. This is probably about as bad as you will get in the Chinese communist regime.

No free speech. No freedom of expression.

Fines of $5500 and presumably arrest and detainment.

And the police are no doubt proud of this fact. They are showing strong tendencies to becoming inbred like the American law enforcement. And again we have very few options politically if we disagree with this policy.

It must be difficult for todays cops.
Stuck between the civil liberatarians and a skyrocketing crime rate...what are they going to do.
They have been losing their powers for several decades.
The Rudd government, like John Howards, has no answer to the crime (though the born again Christians do by encouraging the seeding of Christian revival to control youth...when the people get saved and born again they get set free from the carnality...its in the history books under christian revivals. The net is full of personal testimonies on the successes.)
The New World Order wants control over everything.
The thread on the Bilderbergers says much.
They want a microchip on everyone so they can keep an eye on daily movements via satellite (click on the mark of the beast 666).
Know where the people are and you have control over them just as in George O rwells 1984.
Police state is coming...but I dont blame the cops.
The powers at play are global and bigger that joe/jane Constable...or even joe/jane Commissioner.

I find it quite appalling that a religious festival that has relevance to a minority of Australia's population is to be allowed to disrupt the lives of everybody else. Worse still, it seems to be providing an excuse for the ever-increasing erosion of civil liberties that appears to be the hallmark of 21st century life.

When was the general public consulted about this monumental pain in the arse that has been foisted on us by the State, in collaboration with one religious sect?

I'm even more glad than usual that I don't live anywhere near Sydney.

I'm with CJ on this one. I'm more concerned at how a sectarian religious gathering, with the deliberately innocuous and misleading title of World Youth Day, can be allowed to cause the large scale disruption and tie up state resources to the extent that it will.

Hopefully, the intrusive use of police powers in this particular case will mean there is no repetition of this event.

I have Catholic friends who've told me the whole event is running on the backs of volunteers. Good Catholics all over the country are expected to drive huge distances to collect and billet these young people. Well, we hope they do; there might be a spike in the number of homeless on Sydney's streets otherwise.

Which brings me to an appalling abuse of police power, captured on camera and shown on the 7:30 Report last night, where a homeless older man, desperately in need of help, was laid into by four police thugs. This is the state of police I don't like.

I agree though, Steel, we are becoming a police state. Dissent is being stifled in the name of security and we should all be making a big noise about it.

CJ,

I note with interest you don't feel the same way about any other religions and their burgeoning claims to special treatment. On that issue you have an entirely different view.

Paul.L: << I note with interest you don't feel the same way about any other religions and their burgeoning claims to special treatment. On that issue you have an entirely different view. >>

What rot, Paul. I would feel exactly the same way about it if the deceptively named "World Youth Day" was conducted by any religious group - whether they were Anglican, Pentecostal, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever.

When have I ever advocated for any religion or religious group? There's a world of difference between arguing against bigotry and advocating for the victims of it.

If only someone would pass laws things which caused annoyance to me.

Oh what fun I could have. I try not to get greatly annoyed unnecessarily but if by getting annoyed I could make a difference my approach might change. Lot's of things I merely disagree with now might become an annoyance.

As they say power corrupts, absolute power corrupts ...

R0bert

This is a major event (forget the religious aspect) which will attract visitors from not only within Australia, but
from all over the world. The police have been
given their orders to prevent any disruption,
or embarrassing incidents occurring, and provide
protection for the participants from any unforseen
threats.

It's similar to the Olympic
Games in size I believe, and law enforcement protection
(security) has to be guaranteed by the host country.

I can understand to objections being raised -
because it is a "religious" event. However I feel that
objecting to the event being granted police protection
to which it is entitled, is wrong.
This type of event has occurred in other countries and similar
provisions are made in Australia to comply with
overseas expectations.

Let's see what happens after all this is over, before
deciding whether we are becoming a "police state."
We didn't become a "police state" after the Sydney
Olympics.

Gibo,

When I was the Director of Studies at an Asian university I found myself under pressure to pass students whom plagiarise. I resigned.

Police Officers are to blame if they do not resign and find a new job, should they find in-service thuggery among their peers.

Actually, there should permitted senior lateral appointments into the Police Service to break-up its club/gang culture.

Where there are real threats to Australia's security; these matters should rest with intelligence authorities.

I think it is hilarious that the professional protesters like the Greens who make a habit of disrupting peoples lives with protests and violence are upset about orderly gatherings. I suggest you get a life! No doubt you have no problem with the 'gay' parade disrutping peoples lives as well as turning their stomachs.

An $1,100 fine if you publically expose yourself in front of an attendee but $5,500 if you wear the wrong T-shirt?

Who decides if something is offensive? I guess you'll just have to wait in the cells until somebody hands down their opinion.

The "Thought Police" have arrived.

What's so special about this Christian Hajj that warrants it's own laws anyway - against the same tax-payers helping to fund the event in the first place?

I suggest that atheists be granted equal rights - a taxpayer funded three day booze-up at the races under Police protection.

I have to agree with the majority of posters so far. How will "annoyance" be defined exactly?

Gibo I am also mindful of the difficulties facing police in these situations. Often only part of the story gets told in the media, but that said, we are fast encroaching on a police state. We are not there yet, but as Steel said it only takes a few steps to cross the line.

Police don't want to be put in these situations where they might have to enforce draconian laws. Some police may overstep the mark for sure, but let's not forget that most police just want to get along and do their job with the least impact or violence and are very much into freedom of speech. It is the laws and the governments of the day that set the tone for law enforcement.

Oliver don't aske the 'good' police officers to resign, we need them to stay more than ever and in large numbers to offset the more corrupt elements in the force.

There is also the cost. I have no problem with any religion holding a festival or a 'youth day' but why are taxpayers funding it? The Catholic Church in particular is not without financial resources.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/21/2222342.htm

Actually Oliver police are more a brotherhood.
Having been one I wouldnt call them a club/gang culture.
Most cops are dedicated.
Only a small number are corrupt.
The big problem is that of a national problem called "dont dob your mates in".
Not exposing service thuggery stems out of that.
The loss of freedoms, which the press is so uppity about of late, is a global engineering by the antichrists world government...even though the guy hasnt appeared yet.
The media added to the secrecy problem connected to the quiet loss of freedoms by keeping their mouths shut when they should have openned them when they saw the media magnate and what he was wanted suppressed.

Keep the mind fix that the problem with "police state" is global.
Its not regional.
Terrorism is the cover under which world government will bring in its laws...and a global ID system.
Much civil unrest is yet to come connected to microchipping the global population..."so no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. This calls of wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is a mans number. His number is 666"...Revelation 13:16018/14:9-11.
Theres no appearance of the beast yet but he will be along soon.
Then we can calculate the number of his name, probably in Roman numerals, and we will see who he is.

Our Leaders are trying to drag us into the 21st Century to be part of the Global Community instead of being the cultural backwater of the past that the rest of the world didn't recognize.

And, a variety of International Events gives Australia prominance on the World Scene. It also brings tourists into the country who contribute to our economy.

But hey, we don't need it, do we?

Why have Govt. Head of State Meetings?
Why have the Queen's (or other Royalty) visits?
Why have Football Matches? (they're also a religion to some)?
Why have International Cricket?
Why the Melbourne Cup?
Why New Year's Eve Celebrations in cities and on the Harbour?
Why the Grand Prix?
Why have World Leader visits (including the Dalai Lama)?

Why have anything at all?

Perhaps a good touch point for us all on the issue of the special protection for the event would be to consider the same protections for the gay and lesbian mardi gras.

For each of our concerns (or lack of concern) we could ask - "how would I feel about this if it applied to the gay and lesbian mardi gras?"

One difference exists which does complicate the issue, the mardi gras is an annual event, a papal visit to Australia is much less common.

R0bert

Yes Steel it does appear to be an erosion of civil liberties. Perhaps there may be a context as Foxy suggests but my call is the same as yours without the anti-police thing. As CJ said it provides "an excuse for the ever-increasing erosion of civil liberties that appears to be the hallmark of 21st century life."

The irony that it should be associated with an event related to a Christian group might be considered comical if you want to salvage something. I have never heard of annoyance being actionable outside of hate crime legislation. Normally the religious right would be horrified with such an erosion of liberties because it makes their life difficult eg. legal compulsion to refrain from publically quoting anti-gay scripture. Here however there is some division in the ranks due to the reversal of context.

Causing annoyance is absolutely ridiculous as it is far too open to abuse by those who can claim annoyance (as Robert pointed out). Although the offensive stuff relates to a particular event it sets an unfortunate precedent that could have an "edge of the wedge" effect.

Robert,

Are you agreeing with Foxy that it is analogous to the Olympic Games? What about the potential for abuse that you seemed to allude to if it really did get extended farther and farther?

“Causing annoyance is absolutely ridiculous as it is far too open to abuse by those who can claim annoyance”

Agreed mjpb. This is surely the core of the issue. Laws need to be as tightly defined as possible so that we all know where we stand with the law, to the best possible extent. We must NOT accept fuzzy legal concepts such as ‘annoyance’.

Ill-defined legal parameters lead to uneven policing, with some people getting away with much worse things than others get hauled up for…….or at least the perception of that being the case. It leads to some police wielding a tight fist while others take a very liberal view…or of the perception of this occurring. It leaves the door open for police to be strongly discriminatory and pick out only certain groups or people for harsh treatment, based on their age, sex, skin colour and not on their actions……or again, the perception of this occurring.

I don’t have a problem with strong law enforcement, just as long as we all know just what activities will cause such action to be rendered.

In short, a strong policing regime is GOOD! But it has GOT to go hand in hand with a very tightly defined set of parameters for both the public and for the police, and a maximised publicity program to go with it, so that everyone knows where they stand with the law…..and no one gets caught up in heavy police action, fines, arrests, assault, etc for undertaking activities that they believed were lawful.

mjpb, that most recent post was an attempt to get those who seem to be seeing the issue in black and white terms to have a nother think. I'm concerned about "open" laws and the potential for abuse but I can also see that very specific laws are often easily circumvented.

I don't like restrictions on free speech or protest neither do I like abuse of free speech or protest that infringes on others rights to enjoy something that they may be very important to them.

An athiest hassling attendees at a major christian event is just as offensive as a fundamentalist hassling participants in the gay and lesbian mardi gras. Silencing negative comment about either is also dangerous. There are no easy answers, government abuses power and individuals abuse freedom. Personally I'd rather risk the abuse of freedom than the abuse of government power.

R0bert

Hahaha

'protect me, but don't annoy me while you're doing it'.

Ludwig said:

"Laws need to be as tightly defined as possible so that we all know where we stand with the law, to the best possible extent. We must NOT accept fuzzy legal concepts such as ‘annoyance’."

Annoyance is doing something that's annoying, disruptive or inciting others to annoy. It's vague because 'annoyance' comes in many shades. By the time you and your mates got together and defined what annoying actually was the festival would be over.

Most you people seem to think coppers are all storm troopers from the reich. I bet about 1% of you guys have had a negative experience with them. Excluding being of the receiving end because of your stupidity. They would like to have a cruisy day at some festival just like everyone else, but history dictates that wouldn't happen. There's always the few that ruin it for everyone by being idiots. The cops are damned if they do, and worse, damned if they don't.

You've also got to consider what sort of people would turn up to a youth festival. You're kidding yourself in your well established fantasy worlds if you think people with insidious intentions don't rock up to these things.

You sit there and vilify them, but who do you call when you need help?.

I agree with “Anna Katzmann, SC, described the regulations as "unnecessary and repugnant"."

I personally have no desire to challenge the RC right to hold a rally and for people to freely enjoy the community of spirit with their fellow Rc’s

Same goes to CofE, Exclusive Brethren, Muslims and every other religion.

However, I believe the strength of a religion or any other belief or ethicacy system is its ability to stand up to being tested.

That means facing those who do challenge its values, especially when the Church of Rome is so adamant at imposing its values, wholesale, on non-Roman Catholics. Examples - its drive for a non-contraception and non-abortion environment, as the only way.

Other doubts I have with the RC is the ability for the Church of Rome to adopt crass hypocrisy regarding the celibacy of the priesthood, especially when that means it covers up the endemic abuse of children by its less-than-celibate priests.

So should we kow-tow to a corrupt and malignant organisation or should we challenge its hypocrisy face on?

It seems to me, in NSW, at least, that choice, regardless of the feelings of the electorate, is being denied the citizenry of this secular land.

Another reason Im not happy with World Youth Week it is that the Pope is coming all this way out to Australia as part of a recruitment drive for the One World Church the Vatican is building.
He's not after converts to Jesus Christ but converts to the RC religion... and we are paying for it.
The last two Popes have spend a great deal of time wooing other religions and cultural groups to get them to connected with the RC system.
The recruits are for the great endtimes giant church that combines with the last great dictator in Europe to rule the northern part of the world. Check out The False Prophet.
I believe that Europe is going to soon fall into another dark age with the persecution of true christian believers at the hands of Rome (again an Inquistion).
Jewish folk might be wise to leave before the next Adolf Hitler rises to power.
Between him and the False Prophet... theres not going to be much safety in Europe.

"Personally I'd rather risk the abuse of freedom than the abuse of government power."

That makes sense. Governments abusing their power have so often been such as an ugly and powerful thing. Problem individuals usually do less damage. The "ever-increasing erosion of civil liberties that appears to be the hallmark of 21st century life" almost invites governments to abuse their power. There always seems some 'reason' often a 'crisis' that is used to explain increasing erosion.

Pelican & Gibo,

"Oliver don't aske the 'good' police officers to resign, we need them to stay more than ever and in large numbers to offset the more corrupt elements in the force." - P.

Agree. But in NSW problems go back to the Rum Corpes. The Royal Commission gave bad cops an opt-out, but that didn't work. Bringing people-in, who are outside the "brotherhood", a possibility?

Steel, is this the most glaring demonstration that we live in a Police State that you can think of? The simple fact is that Police generate scare campaigns which, with the support of the media, bring them greater powers from ever-willing Governments, who know the value of a law and order ticket.

What I find disturbing is the fact that it is being reported that simply wearing a t-shirt with a slogan on it is capable of attracting a $5,500 fine. Surely, depending upon the slogan of course, such an act would be 'political communication' and thus protected? Of course, those who make some attempt to assert their rights will be arrested by Police, who honestly believed these laws to be valid, and such people will be without legal recourse. THIS is the stifling of the free speech which is implied in our system of Government and it is likely to be completely succesful. What a con-job, the NSW Police Service employs lawyers, who would be well aware that such powers are not able to be used, yet they will play dumb, gee what a suprise.

PS for those who lament the erosion of police powers, please tell me when in history police have had more powers than they do today? I would love to see the specific powers that police are supposed to have enjoyed which they do not enjoy now (well, apart from free bl%wjobs, etc from pros).

So StG, I take it that you think that it is perfectly ok to have extremely vaguely defined legal parameters, with the problems associated with them that I outlined in my last post?

Don’t you think that the important aspects of ‘annoyance’ could be pretty easily defined….and damn well should be?

Regardless of the intentions and motivations behind the event, my complaint is the way these laws were unilaterally introduced - without debate, clarification or appeal.

It's as if the Government doesn't trust it's own citizens to behave properly. Will they have water cannons on standby too?

While there may have been some who felt the need to make some sort of protest originally - for whatever reason - now a whole extra group may have been provoked into action.

Every militant libertarian now has a reason to go out and make a public spectacle to be broadcast on the world stage because the issue has now moved from being about an inconvenient sectarian sideshow to a "struggle for the right to free speech in a democratic society".

While not on the same scale as the Danish Muslim cartoon fiasco, it's still a debate about similar issues.

Col

"I personally have no desire to challenge the RC right to hold a rally and for people to freely enjoy the community of spirit with their fellow Rc’s"

You have no desire to challenge the fact that this event is costing taxpayers $86 000 000?

And you don't mind that if tax payers object and decide to go along and protest at this blatant misuse of public money, they're likely to find themselves on the wrong side of the police action they themselves are funding?

Well, I'm certainly a little less comfortable than you are to hear I'm helping fund a mass promotion for the Catholic church.

It is amazing how many posters have ignored the fact these extra laws did not exist for the Olympics or the recent heads of state meetings.
Why?
Can it be the Catholic church is above criticism?
What has the NSW government done?
Under this law it would be illegal to hold up a sign reminding the church of child sexual abuse in its ranks.

Bronwyn “You have no desire to challenge the fact that this event is costing taxpayers $86 000 000?”

I was not aware of a charge on the public purse but would agree, it should not cost the tax payers of NSW anything.

Football and other large events pay for policing.

It is appropriate that if policing for this event is that amount, the Church of Rome should pay.

Whilst I remain indifferent to any Roman Catholics right to rally, it should not be a rally which is subsidized with public funds.

Belly “It is amazing how many posters have ignored the fact these extra laws did not exist for the Olympics or the recent heads of state meetings.”

Yes Belly, it is iniquitous.

But the Church of Rome did, after all, invent the iniquitous

I think there must be a huge number of Roman Catholics in positions of power in Australia for such a big event, with such restrictions, to be permitted. Its causing inconvenience and misery to many citizens Im sure.
I frequently hear the the Roman Catholic church called "the Church"...yet its not.
The REAL church is the global body of christian believers who sit in many denomonations.

Id like to see a commission into just what the RC church gets up to here in Australia and what power they have to sway the population over to things like ONE WORLD CHURCH.

Islams' quiet creep internally...the Chinese spies spreading out...the RC church and its manipulations...is there any difference between any of them when it comes to overthrow of democracy and a personal Christ belief?

"Id like to see a commission into just what the .. church gets up to here in Australia and what power they have to sway the population" http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1943#39795

http://www.theage.com.au/news/editorial/politicians-sing-to-hillsongs-tune/2005/07/05/1120329444531.html

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2005/07/05/the-light-on-the-hillsong/

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/rudd-attacks-pm-over-sect-meeting/2007/08/22/1187462345478.html

http://www.pnc.com.au/~jwcs/One_Church_Party.pdf

Now that Gibo's concerns have been addressed we can get back to the topic.

I was listening to a discussion on sexual harassment this morning regarding complaints about wolf whistling in Cairns and some of the discussion seemed very similar to this issue. The action becomes unlawful based on how the person making the complaint perceives the action not on the intent of the person doing the action.

Personally I think that wolf whistling strangers is rude, fun between consenting adults but keep it there. At the same time laws which seem to be based on how something is received rather than intended bother me a lot.

R0bert

Gibo,

Of the Old Churches, it has been said that, "the only difference between the Catholics and Anglicans was how long they toasted their victims".

In really, churches are political entities, wherein in one will find good people and bad people. Some seek power, others to serve.

After watching the news last night and learning a bit
more about this event, I fully agree with Ludwig,
legal parameters should be defined and set in place with
what will constitute "annoyance," and be punishable.
To prevent abuse - and allow both the public and the police
know exactly what they can and can't do.

It would bother me that people were fined for wearing
t-shirts with messages, or carrying placards...

Be a bit careful with Ludwig, Foxy. There is a flaw in his mentality when he appeals to strong law enforcement, with such emphasis:

Ludwig> "I don’t have a problem with strong law enforcement, just as long as we all know just what activities will cause such action to be rendered.

Ludwig>In short, a strong policing regime is GOOD"

Note his use of the term "regime". He is very strongly authoritarian in some cases, which means that as long as the law says t-shirts are illegal, he will support it and support police making arrests.

Administrators like Ludwig are the types who sign off on police powers that treat the citzenry like criminals ("STRONG police enforcement" essentially equals thuggish behaviour and mentality). You know the idiots who will give you a maximum fine for driving 1kph over the speed limit on an empty road.

This is getting even more distrubing if that's possible......the similarities to communism/fascism are striking. The "senior" police here are crackpots. I really wonder how many of the upper echelons of the force are communists/fascists. The public should be able to have some influence over the police and hold some power over their appointments:

-=-=-
"During a meeting with two leading victims groups yesterday, senior police said protesters would also have to include details of their planned messages

Protesting without police clearance could result in demonstrators being charged under extraordinary new powers"
-=-=

Police are wanting to pre-approve or grant 'permission' to planned messages. Read that a couple of times.

The REAL churches Oliver Ive found arent into anything political.

The "political" is the fools alternative to faith in Jesus...wholly and solely faith in Him.

I live in the small christian churches where the focus is on Jesus and The Gifts of The Holy Spirit.
We look to helping folk with disease and addiction and spirit bondages by preaching Jesus as the Answer.
The Anglicans today are mostly owned by the RC empire... and dont really preach a full trust in The Lord.
Remember the great endtimes RC controlled ONE WORLD CHURCH.
All over again we will see Inquistion.

Gibo,

Do you see God, Jesus, each Christian Church, as separate constructs, each with their own internal consistencies? Is dogma similar across all?

Thanks.

Basic Christian dogma Oliver, in the christian churches, seems to me to be simply a faith in Jesus Christ and what He did on the Cross.
We receive what He did by asking Him to be Lord and Saviour of our lives... and He sends The Holy Spirit to Comfort us and establish His Gifts within us.

Many churches have gone away from this simplicity to just about every alternative and many have lost The Spirit and the preaching of Jesus.
You can find churches today doing good community works with diminished preaching.
Some have gone over to political things and forgotten what they were Given Life to do.
In the RC empire you can find anything.
Huge powerplays, very little preaching of faith in Jesus Christ and heaps of preaching of faith in the Pope and "the church", the worship of Mary that displaces her Son Jesus and all that He did, the worship of idols, the exhaltation of mere men they call "saints", secret societies and all they do, a Black Pope (some suggest...look up Black Pope), a global plan to keep third world countries poor and bound to the church by drawing the people to priests for the forgiveness of sins...
Christianity is so simple.
Its really nothing much more, initially as you receive The Lord, than a personal relationship with Him and His Spirit.
You and HE...HE and you.
SIMPLE as pie!

Steel "Police are wanting to pre-approve or grant 'permission' to planned messages."

YES, THAT IS HOW A POLICE STATE WORKS

and it is an Abomination.

Who here would criticise the actions of Mugabe on the matter of his record on freedom of association and freedom of expression?

who can see anything different between

Police pre-approval of messages (which equals vetoing of messages)

and what Mugabe has got up to with Morgan Tsvangirai and the MDC?

Apart from actually using drawn batons and torches, Please post if you can distinguish between the two.

Steel,

>> “This is getting even more distrubing if that's possible......the similarities to communism/fascism are striking.”

The similarities to communism/facism are striking. Well are they really. No Sh!t??

This kind of squealing from the soft-left usually indicates that the government has actually got something right.

“Our civil rights are being eroded.” They cry. What they actually mean is that they can’t wear their “F@CK JESUS” T-shirt down to the world youth day and get away with that kind of ugly baiting anymore. You can be sure these nutters would have you in jail if you went down and stirred up a muslim event like that.

Steel, you might try living in a totalitarian state like Amedinejhad’s Iran or the Gaza strip, under Hamas. We are SO FAR from a real police state that I can see why you might be confused. Having NEVER experienced anything like a police state in this country, you might be excused for NOT KNOWING WHAT ONE WAS, EVEN IF IT JUMPED UP AND BIT YOU.

"In the RC empire you can find anything."

Not surprisingly with 1.5 billion there are many individuals yet you identify with a tiny pentecostal church that apparently doesn't identify with the larger pentecostal churches and their political actions. I suspect you wouldn't find a great deal in your little church. There aren't enough people.

"...very little preaching of faith in Jesus Christ and heaps of preaching of faith in the Pope and "the church""

Funny I've been going to a Catholic Church for many years and the Pope only ever gets a mention in prayer or if they die or come to the country. Is that what your pastor is telling you? Perhaps his fibs derive from a problem with size envy? Where it would derive from is anyone's guess.

"the worship of Mary that displaces her Son Jesus and all that He did,"

Nonsense. I notice the evangelicals recently 'discovered' Mary but neither group worships her.

"the worship of idols"

I seem to have misplaced my golden cow.

"the exhaltation of mere men they call "saints""

You mean holding apostles of the Lord and pious individuals in high regard as opposed to those who exhalt "Christian singers" at rock concerts?

"secret societies and all they do"

Like the fiction version of opus dei or perhaps the Jesuits?

"a Black Pope"

I do believe that Cardinal Arinze would make a good Pope but we got a pretty good one anyway. Pope Benedict is white.

"a global plan to keep third world countries poor and bound to the church by drawing the people to priests for the forgiveness of sins..."

I have heard JWs arguing scriptures to claim that confession is not legitimate but never this type of mythology.

Oow Steely, you seem a wee tad hung up on the views of ol Luddles.

I’m sure if you really tried, you could convince yourself that he is a very baaaad dude. Hold on, I think you have done just that!

On the other hand, if you wished to, you could see things the other way and support the poor fellow……which you actually did on one occasion some time ago on a totally different subject….much to his absolute amazement and prolonged light-headedness ( : ~ |)

You need to stop jumping to conclusions and asserting things about other people that you really can’t assert and indeed don’t have clue as to whether they are true or not. But then, Luddie has told you that before…and so have several other posters.

Do you really think that a strong and effective policing ‘regime’ (what other word would you use?) is a bad thing, per se, without delving into the appropriateness or inappropriateness of certain laws? Don’t you think that a uniform obedience of the law is good and a uniform treatment of those who break the law is also a positive thing?

Ludnuts not going to address the points that you assert about his position in your last two paragraphs (of your first post today), coz they is tooo ridiculous.

He wishes you a nice day, or what is left of it.

Ludwig, I based my comments on some of your words and i did forget about the point you made in the henson topic so i retract my comment. The two parts of your comment that i looked at closely were probably misinterpreted. Those were "policing regime" and your focus on the vagueness rather than the inherent ideas and restrictions. I guessed that in the absence of vagueness you would be ok with these laws, as they would 'clearly define' themselves, so i'm sorry about that Ludwig. i have done this before with your comments...i guess i find it easy to misinterpret some people on some occassions...another person for whom i have done this a couple of times was Vanilla.

But mjpb...you were indoctrinated from an early age... and as one priest is known to have said, "If we get them in the first seven years, we have them for life". Were you got?
The Holy Bible is VERY clear... the focus is to be on the Man Who was on the Cross but is now Risen.
HE is what Christianity is all about!

I read a story a few years ago that the Jesuits were gun running in Africa to aid the spread of "church" doctrine.
Pitting one side in a guerilla war against the other...isnt that what they do?

My little church really jumps because The Holy Spirit is moving in miracles, healings and Words of Knowledge.

You wont find that in the RC Empire.
Its all the Vatican, the Pope for world leader of ONE WORLD CHURCH etc etc.

Hi all...

I don't necessarily agree that by conferring additional public order powers on police, is symptomatic of a 'Police State' as some folk have inferred.

The upcoming visit of the Pope (Youth Day) would indeed represent a massive planning and logistical responsibility, for those who
have carriage of preparing the necessary responsive protocols.

You see, if the coppers adopt a more relaxed and conciliatory posture towards the public, particularly in the planning mode, and something does go wrong. Then everybody is up in arms, followed by loud demands that 'heads should roll'. And, led by our illustrious media, everybody and his dog will start baying for some poor coppers blood !

Moreover, if police adopt a 'zero tolerance' attitude, and nothing happens. More than likely, they'll be accused of being too heavy handed ! Followed contemporaneously of allegations of spoiling the whole event and spectacle.

It's the old story folks, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't ?

My own humble experience in these matters - there is always the perception of far too many cooks, in my opinion ! The higher ranks running around (should read, 'blundering' around) giving orders. A moment later, another boss revokes or rescinds the order, thus ensuring utter confusion for all and sundry !?

It's not that easy, believe me. And of course there's the media with their cameras. Taking lots n' lots of footage, particularly of some of the more violent exchanges between police and public.

As I said, it's not that easy. I'd love for some of our more vocal armchair critics to come and show us how to do it correctly ! Instead of 'sniping' at us from the sideline

Much Ado AboutNothing.

So B17 has been given his hour in the sun.Big deal!!

Reading all the billious claptrap from different sections of the religious right would make most of us puke.

Get ready to now grant the same courtesy to religious leaders from the Hindu,Muslim and whatever else to descend on us to call monster meetings over what...
Much ado about NOTHING

socratease

Thanks Steel. Appreciated.

^^^^

“I'd love for some of our more vocal armchair critics to come and show us how to do it correctly ! Instead of 'sniping' at us from the sideline”

O sung wu, am I correct in interpreting this statement as coming from a police officer? The word ”us” seems conclusive in this regard.

I agree that the police have a hard job in finding the right balance. But if they and their political masters would just concentrate on making the respective laws, the responses and the penalties as clear-cut as possible, instead of apparently deliberately leaving them as vague entities, then it would help no-end.

As I said in an earlier post on this thread, the core issue here surely is the vagueness of the law (in this case, just what is meant by ‘annoyance’), and thus what is actually unlawful and actionable by the police and what is understood to be so by the general public.

Surely the essential elements are 1. tightly defined parameters that are clearly understood by the public and the police, and 2. a police presence that is up to the task of acting on unlawful activity evenly and fairly, and of being a real deterrent to it happening in the first place.

O sung wu I usually agree with your view, however, not this time...

“You see, if the coppers adopt a more relaxed and conciliatory posture towards the public,”

“a more relaxed and conciliatory posture” – toward the people they are there to serve, sounds at best “patronising” at worst, I dread to think.

“My own humble experience in these matters” . . . “'blundering' around” . . . “utter confusion”

Happy to defer to your better experience– however, you do not portray an organisation suited to or competent of deciding what will and what will not be “CENSORED”.

“As I said, it's not that easy. I'd love for some of our more vocal armchair critics to come and show us how to do it correctly ! Instead of 'sniping' at us from the sideline”

This armchair critical is happy to suggest

An organisation which you have described as being, basically, incompetent to administer public order should not appoint itself to decide on which matters may or maynot incite and invoke "papal annoyance".

I am reminded of the term “If you cannot pee, just get off the pot and make room for those who can”

Or possibly – to the police authority - do not deny others the right to do something simply because you cannot handle it yourself.

To the nature of “annoyance” I agree with everyone who has suggested bad laws are the product of ambiguous laws.

Any half decent defence solicitor or barrister could ride a carriage and four through the gaps in a definition of “annoyance”.

Finally, the police exist to serve the public, not to censor them and

"Separation of Powers" is one of the cornerstones of any democracy.

Paul, while I noted your response to Steel was in relation to whether a subarbanite (which I strongly suspect steel is) has ANY idea of police state tactics in this country or has even encountered actual abuse of power, I have lived in and around numerous Aboriginal communities and know for a fact that in those situations such tactics ARE used.

For instance, a police officer in the NT fired wildly into a crowd of people (including women and children). One person was killed, several injured - one seriously. This Officer was acquitted because the initial investigation took more than two months and thus under NT law, no criminal prosecution could be presented.

What about the watchhouse in the Pitjanjarra lands which is off-limits to all bar inmates because of the loose asbestos fibres which come through the rusted holes in the corrugated iron sheet walls (which incidentally cause temperatures to climb to over 50C inside during summer)?

What about the daily baiting of Aboriginal people in Northern Australia? They are harrassed until they swear or make what is viewed by police as an intimidatory or threatening response then they are arrested (normally with force) and fined or jailed. Even deaths in custody are rising again.

No. We do live in a Police State (Police are not subject to ordinary legal restrictions and are above the law), that is a fact. Unfortunately it is a fact which 90% of Australians are blisfully unaware of, but it is a fact nonetheless.

PS Under International Law it is quite possible (especially given the demise of Terra Nulius)that such communities are occupied territories which have not been ceded by a peace treaty between the occupier and the original inhabitants/owners. This is where the danger lies, because no first world, democratically elected government/system of government can survive the sort of conflict that this engenders (say for instance they take a leaf out of Hamas' book?)

Good evening to you LUDWIG...

You're quite correct, I did a bit over twenty eight years in the job before I was medically retired.

Your point/s are well made apropos the clear delineation of the law. In order that both police and the public know exactly what the legal boundries are...particularly in matters of Public Order.

Most gatherings of people, who are generally assembled for a common purpose, eg a demonstration, rally or some outdoor event et al, can sometimes prove to be a fairly difficult occurrence for police to manage.

Introduce some other elements to the equation, such as alcohol, drugs or even a very hot humid day, and this can rapidly change the whole dynamic of a crowd.

Quite often, you only need a boisterous, alcohol fueled, belligerent young man to turn a rowdy but peaceful gathering into a violent confrontation with police. The reason for this rapid regression of behaviour, can be as simple as nothing ! Just the presence of police can often precipitate a violent reaction from a crowd. In earlier days I can remember, just the 'majesty' of the uniform, could often quieten some people down. No longer the case I'm afraid !

Anyway, time I took these ol' bones to bed. Hope to talk with you again soon.

o sung wu: << As I said, it's not that easy. I'd love for some of our more vocal armchair critics to come and show us how to do it correctly ! Instead of 'sniping' at us from the sideline >>

I'm sure it's not easy. In fact, police should not be put in this invidious position, where they apparently will be the arbiters of what is "annoying" to Catholics while the rest of us are subjected to this taxpayer-funded religious circus.

This "armchair critic" has the perfect solution: have "World Youth Day" at Vatican City, and let them deal with it.

Problem solved. No need to change Australian laws to erode further our civil liberties. No need to disrupt our largest city for a religious festival. No need to extract millions of taxpayer dollars to cover the logistics for this Christian version of the Haj.

When were the taxpaying electorate consulted over this overtly religious extravaganza? At least with the Olympics the whole nation was in on it and we were constantly informed about the preparations.

And as Belly said, we didn't need these draconian laws even for that far more major occasion. What's going on here?

Our lost and unhappy leader Mr Iemma is Catholic, much to my amusement so too are a lot from my party the ALP.
However my concerns are not about the police doing their duty.
Not even about the church being given unfair access to Rand wick race course.
To think however new restrictive laws have been manufactured for this event is troubling.
While I wait for the implosion that will remove Mr Iemma from Parliament[ if I was Christian I would pray for it] I will continue to ask why my government needed to change laws that stop me saying what I think.

I’m all the way with CJ;

The concept of special laws for special circumstances, imposed by a government without consultation with the public or apparently even with legal or civil rights experts is repugnant.

We need effective laws for crowd control that are uniform, clear-cut, and very well researched and debated before their implementation. Of course, we should have had this many years ago.

We don’t need the pope or some enormous religious carry-on in this country.

Harking back to Steel’s introductory post;

The wearing of a T shirt that expresses an opinion without being overtly offensive should most definitely not be an offence. A $5500 fine for such a thing is beyond outrageous. Our free speech and freedom of expression must be protected.

We don’t need much heavier and more restrictive laws. What we need is a more effective police force that is up to the task of policing the laws that we have…..and a government and police department that can tell us the precise parameters of all manner of laws and then make sure that they are policed evenly and fairly.

I think a lot of the problem here is a lack of acceptance of individual initiative.

It seems to me the higher powers are too scared to leave the police to do some policing and use their own judgement based on their experience and the existing laws.

This ideal seems to be everywhere. It's a slippery slope. Once you start making all employees drones to a system, you spend all your time maintaining the system to allow for every eventuality, and your employee base also lose the ability to think for themselves. I suppose that's why governments are so fond of systems.

It's part of what I was banging on about in my 'computer says no' topic.

Gibo,

"But mjpb...you were indoctrinated from an early age... and as one priest is known to have said, "If we get them in the first seven years, we have them for life". Were you got?"

I was indoctrinated from an early age but I don't believe I was got. I was indoctrinated into atheism. However lacking sufficient faith to get too zealous about atheism. I looked at religions and settled on Christianity.

"The Holy Bible is VERY clear... the focus is to be on the Man Who was on the Cross but is now Risen."

It certainly is.

"HE is what Christianity is all about!"

I'm sure the Pope would love to see you type that. You may take rumours too seriously but at least you got something right. Our Lord is number 1. He should be our major priority and we should take what he says as authoritative.

"I read a story a few years ago that the Jesuits were gun running in Africa to aid the spread of "church" doctrine.
Pitting one side in a guerilla war against the other...isnt that what they do?"

They probably do that during breaks from other irreligious activities...but I didn't have in mind the reality of the often secularised order. I was thinking about the rumour that they were a type of mafia for the Pope. In reality they are often very anti-Catholic and hardly helpful to the Pope.

"My little church really jumps because The Holy Spirit is moving in miracles, healings and Words of Knowledge."

Don't forget spreading silly rumours about Catholics.

"You wont find that in the RC Empire."

In the Roman Catholic Church you will find just about anything. There are a heck of a lot of Catholics out there.

"Its all the Vatican, the Pope for world leader of ONE WORLD CHURCH etc etc."

If you are interested the reality is that it is all about scripture, prayer and worship of Jesus. Is your pastor telling you fairy stories to keep you in his little church?

Much of my knowledge mjpb re: the RC global empire, incorporating their (coming) ONE WORLD CHURCH (theyve been building it for decades) and its persecution of true christian believers who worship outside of the RC Empire, comes from Chic Publications in the USA and from the testimony of an ex-RC Jesuit named Alberto Riviera.
Alberto was up high in the Jesuits in the RC system when he met the Black Pope.
The Black Pope he said, when he went to kiss his hand, had a ring on his finger which had the masonic mitre and square symbol on it...showing the connection at upper levels bewteen the RC Empire and the Masons. I believe his testimony.
You didnt says anything about the Black Pope?

Gibo

Just say that you have the end time doctrine right. Is it going to make you love people any more or live righteously or witness for Christ more?I have studied many end time theories. I grew up in the Catholic church and know many of their teachings. I left 25 years ago when I was born again. I have met many Catholics who have faith in Christ and live sacrificial lives. Some even speak in tongues. Isn't it better to allow the Holy Spirit to speak to them as to whether they should stay or leave that system? Surely we are judged not on what organization we belong to but how we live our lives. Personally I believe my judgement was taken upon the body of the Lord Jesus Christ when He hung on the cross.

It is true that the RC history is atrocious. Many believers were martyred due to wicked leadership. This is not denied by many Catholics themselves. I am not sure how helpful it is to the gospel to focus on past atrocities.

I find it interesting that you link the Masonic Lodge with Rome. Generally they dislike each other immensely. Masons unfortunately have infiltrated many mainline churches. That that is one demonic organisation!

I thought special police powers were "a once only" for APEC. It's a bit like the ANZ Bank back in the 1970s saying that there were only going to be seven or eight ATM machines in Victoria. The thin edge of the wedge, wherein those in power will set a precedent, now, only to expand the rare, now, to become the common day, later.

In NSW, I seem to recall something about breath testing by police to a temporary measure, while the Service conducted a demographic study on drink driving, giving them the power, for the first time, to pull over a driver, without an offense committed, to look at their licence.

“Much of my knowledge mjpb re: the RC global empire, incorporating their (coming) ONE WORLD CHURCH (theyve been building it for decades) and its persecution of true christian believers who worship outside of the RC Empire, comes from Chic Publications in the USA and from the testimony of an ex-RC Jesuit named Alberto Riviera.”

Then you now know who is feeding you bunk. There are a lot of bad Jesuits who hate Catholicism in particular and Christianity in general. He is probably masquerading as a Pentecostal to lie and stir up strife within the Christian family. Divided we fall.

Yes I didn’t say anything about the black Pope. I believe Cardinal Arinze would have made a good Pope but he didn’t get in and the current one is also pretty good. Read Runner’s post about Masonic stuff.

Runner,

”It is true that the RC history is atrocious. Many believers were martyred due to wicked leadership. This is not denied by many Catholics themselves. I am not sure how helpful it is to the gospel to focus on past atrocities.”

There is still a lot of poor leadership in the Church to this day even if the atrocities are normally spiritual. You would be aware of the role of the Pope yet you get Jesuits who openly reject any Christian teaching of the Pope and even Bishops who do things like the following:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/brisbane-catholic-bishop-defies-pope/2008/06/22/1214073012957.html

”I find it interesting that you link the Masonic Lodge with Rome. Generally they dislike each other immensely. Masons unfortunately have infiltrated many mainline churches.”

If a Catholic joins the Masons they get excommunicated.

“That that is one demonic organisation!”

Here here. But I think all Christians (including Gibo) know that and that is why that Jesuit knew making up that story would hit the mark.

Oliver,

"I thought special police powers were "a once only" for APEC. It's a bit like the ANZ Bank back in the 1970s saying that there were only going to be seven or eight ATM machines in Victoria. The thin edge of the wedge, wherein those in power will set a precedent, now, only to expand the rare, now, to become the common day, later."

Here here. "Once only" aberations are normally the thin edge of the wedge and trial changes typically drift into permanence.

Regarding the denigration of the US Thirteen and Fourteenth Amendments:

"In short, the application of the criminal sanctions to the protection civil rights has come to be restricted mainly to cases in which officials [Politicians and Police] participate, or misuse their power, or situations involving rights granted directly to individuals [Citizens against Police] and guaranteed against infringement [of the Amendments] by the Federal Constitution or laws [sic. Laws]." - Biddle citing Brodie, supra note 9, at 374 n.35. [circ. 1940s]

The issue being, that Slavery is abolished [in the US], yet, in the US then/in Australia now; agents of the State, the Police, can insist on "involuntary servitude", i.e, strip searches in Oz. In the US, the Police State case in history related to negros being arrested by police for refusing to work for economically down-trodden farmers, during the Great Depression.

A citizen charged for refusing a Police order to work on a farm or strip, would indicate State protection of Police, and involunary servitude by citizens at the behest of the State.

Relatedly, regarding protest;

"We must distinguish between censorship to prevent military information ... from reaching the enemy, on the one hand, from, on the other hand, censorship to prevent criticism or discussion of governmental acts. The excuse for the latter is that such criticism and discussion encourages enemy." - Pound (1941)

Key citation: Risa L. Goluboff; Duke Law Journal, Vol. 50, 2001.

I don't believe any church is absolutely right. There are many fine Christians in all denominations including the Roman Catholic Church. Chick publications are rather extreme and are somewhat considered cultish - they are stories, not based on facts. I know of ratbag Pentecostal churches both small and large. Young people attend these churches because they like the music, (Hillsong is more like a rock concert than a church service) and they ignore Jesus. As I've said before, I attend a Pentecostal Church but I don't follow all Pentecostal teachings - (I disregard their prophecies, as I've discovered many of these to not come about and therefore cannot be from God, I treat "words of knowledge" with caution. Speaking in tongues is allright as long as its only done one at a time by two or three people with an interpreter - although in most Pentecostal Churches up to 90% of the congregation will all be speaking in tongues at once and there will be no interpretation given. When I disagree with any Christian on any matter, usually we can agree to disagree, and that's what I like to do with my Roman Catholic freinds. Sadly some Christians insist everything they believe is right and won't accept anyone elses opinion, and I give these people (some whom are members of my own congregation) a wide berth.

No worries Runner.
This was mostly a one-off on some of the RC system.
Im not happy about the Pope coming here for recruits for One World Church.
Most people dont know that the Vatican wants to rule all other churches and religious systems and is working at it steadfastly. Theyve already gobbled up English Anglicanism.
The Pope has also, already, put himself above The Lord.
I have a photo from the Sydney Morning Herald some months back showing a group of young priests on their bellies in worship before a seated Pope.
He was lapping it up like a sponge takes in liquid.
Herold got the worms and a slow death for receiving worhip due to God.
Some good webchecks might include...
MYSTERY BABYLON
THE MARK OF THE BEAST 666
THE ANTICHRIST
and COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE.
Revelation tells us that between the two endtimes figures of the antichrist (the beast) and the false prophet many thousands will die.
Decapitations will occur to many who refuse the mark/microchip on either the right hand or forehead. Revelation 20:4 speaks about beheading.
Still its better to refuse the new ID than to have God Deal with you for receiving it....Revelation 14:9-11.

Goodevening to you C J MORGAN...

I agree with you on this one C J. As it often happens, our well meaning politicians make the bullets and have the hapless coppers fire them. Problem is, that many decisions made without first carefully considering the implications or the unwanted consequences of that decision/s, can often lead to a very sticky situation for police during execution.

You may well remember the then NSW Premier (sorry, name escapes me)or was it PM Harold HOLT, when meeting with the US President Lyndon B. JOHNSON, was confronted with a massive demo involving folk against the war in Vietnam, muttered to his security adviser and driver "...run the bastards over..." !

You can imagine what sort of position the NSW Police were put in !
Myself, I was actually 'in country' at the time and only heard about it on an ABC Relay broadcast. Though must confess, most of the blokes got a pretty good chuckle out of it, nevertheless!

No C J, the many years that I was in the job, I often reflected on the long held view, that the coppers were merely the 'play things' of the Politicians. Simply, unquestioningly to do their bidding and try to keep a lid on any politically sensitive matter, that may reflect adversely on their administration.

Look my friends, I'm not making any excuses for the coppers per se. However, sometimes it really is, as they say...'between a rock and a hard place' ?

Does a citizen being charged for refusing a Police order to work on a farm [US, 1940s] or strip [Australia, 2008] indicate State protection of Police, and "involunary servitude" [legal trem] by citizens at the behest of the State?

o sung wu

1. Sir Robert [nee Robin] Askin.

2. The police not have to fire the politicians bullets they can resign or strike.

3. A little history: A few months before the October 1917 Russian Revolution [April?, 1917], the police under orders from authorities opened fire on protestors. The military present, opened fire and killed the police.

1.pelican,Bronwyn,etc Why are taxpayers funding it?
WHY?

2. Laws need to be as tightly defined as possible. What means ‘annoyance’?.
I agree with you.

3.Belly "Can it be the Catholic church is above criticism?" "why my government needed to change laws that stop me saying what I think? WHY?

4. Foxy
It would bother me that people were fined for wearing
t-shirts with messages, or carrying placards...
Me too!

5. Col Rouge
You are very sensitive for the freedom of expresion! I like that! I hope you are not so "generous " because State government is ALP and only for Catholic church. "Finally, the police exist to serve the public, not to censor them and""Separation of Powers" is one of the cornerstones of any democracy" Col Rouge, You are advanced!
I agree with you!

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

It is rather strange that our police have to suffer abuse from ferals who produce nothing in our society,yet are instructed to persue only those who have an opinion and the capacity to pay fines.

It is the subjugation of the very people who who make our society function.I was born a Catholic,but the Pope is far from being infallible.This is Gestapo tactics and the Iemma Govt can go and get stuffed!

ASymeonakis “You are very sensitive for the freedom of expresion! I like that! I hope you are not so "generous " because State government is ALP and only for Catholic church.”

I select my political and church allegiances based on the values I hold.

My views are not formed by the values of any incumbent government and it probably explains my complete mistrust of theorocrats and the authoritarian preferences of organized religions, the Church of Rome being a particularly despicable example.

“Col Rouge, You are advanced!
I agree with you!”

My ethical and cognitive evolution is entirely independent of any empathy you may feel but thank you anyway.

Arjay “This is Gestapo tactics and the Iemma Govt can go and get stuffed”

I agree.

I am not sure which state you reside but I suggest, consider it when you next cast your vote, before the police start to decide who should be allowed to vote and who not.

I recall Lenin’s words which, strangely, will find support among the cardinals of Rome

“Freedom is so precious, it must be rationed”

Of course Lenin also said

“Give us the child for 8 years and it will be a Bolshevik forever”

which compares closely to the Jesuit maxim

“Give me a child until he is seven, and I will give you the man".

When I see the RC dictatorial expectations for worldwide anti-contraception, anti abortion laws and the internal corruption of the Church of Rome, I fully understand how the depravities encourages by despotism can take many forms.

A S do not get too self righteous in your defense of the NSW ALP no man! none ! is more ALP than me.
Constantly my zeal is reason some within the movement give me a hard time.
This party this leadership over ruled state conference, told the 5.6 who voted against every one for the power sale we did not matter.
I note the thread is lost in a religious fog.
No longer questioning why did we need harsher laws than ANY EVENT held in Sydney ever?
Would it be a crime to have a shirt that asked the church to say sorry to its victims of sexual abuse?
Or its crimes against Aboriginals?
Or to ask how did it get so wealthy in so many very poor country's?
Yes it may well be.
Mate AS you clearly are from the very left here in this thread you appear to say protest is wrong?
I will never understand how freedom of speech is only sometimes for so many.
I am no supporter of the event or that church in fact any church that needs governments to change laws to protect it.
At some time in the future if Muslims ask to just March in Sydney on a weekend , watch the same people who see no wrong in changing laws change their minds.

Gibo,

"The Pope has also, already, put himself above The Lord.
I have a photo from the Sydney Morning Herald some months back showing a group of young priests on their bellies in worship before a seated Pope.
He was lapping it up like a sponge takes in liquid.
Herold got the worms and a slow death for receiving worhip due to God."

For crying out loud Gibo that is like saying that a photo of a bunch of pentecostals visibly praying in front of a pentecostal pastor must be praying to their pastor.

I couldn't find the photo but my guess would be it was an ordination and the young priests were prostrated in worship before the Lord. The Pope was probably there to remind them to fan into flame the gift of God, within them through the laying of his hands on them. There are other possibilities but it makes little difference.

In our religion it is specifically required that worship is to God only. That is mandatory. Even an angel in heaven cannot be worshipped. Certainly not the Pope.

The problem is that you have been reading too many fairy stories about Catholics and you are expecting it so you interpret pictures that way.

mjpb, you obviously don't know how to interpret snippets of information which you come across. Everything must be filtered through existing bias's without critical thought.

If you want to get an understanding of the penticostal movement of which Gibo is so fond of try Sex Scandles at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Swaggart

or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_televangelist_scandals (this one is a gem)

To be fair I don't personally think the actions of those individuals should be seen as a guide to the morals or ethics of all involved in the penticostal movement but by Gibo's rules for judging others thats how you would do it.

R0bert

Robert,

"mjpb, you obviously don't know how to interpret snippets of information which you come across. Everything must be filtered through existing bias's without critical thought."

I just wish he would stop doing that with regard to Catholicism...

"If you want to get an understanding of the penticostal movement of which Gibo is so fond of try Sex Scandles at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Swaggart

or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_televangelist_scandals (this one is a gem)"

Thanks for taking the time to post and look up that stuff. You obviously don't identify as any form of Christian including Catholic so I know you are being altruistic. Is there any televangelist or former televangelist not included in that article? Wow.

"To be fair I don't personally think the actions of those individuals should be seen as a guide to the morals or ethics of all involved in the penticostal movement but by Gibo's rules for judging others thats how you would do it."

True. I note that there can be slight misunderstandings between denominations that can often be resolved by accurate information. The problem here however is that Gibo's comments are really extreme because someone is actively lieing and Gibo is lapping it up so that his bias is way over the top before he even misinterprets the snippets.

Gibo,

I googled "mystery Babylon" and it led to the 666 Pope accusation. Supporting it were apparently some numerology using an alleged title of the Pope "Vicarius Filii Dei". Supporting the controversial claim the title applied to the Pope was a claim of getting documentary evidence through extensive lying and things like "In "Crossing The Threshold of Hope", by Pope John Paul II...you will find:

"... represents the Son of God.."

If you directly translate "represents the Son of God" into Latin, the official language of the Church, you get "Vicarius Filii Dei"."

Numerology, lies and calculating that the words mainly comprised of "Son of God" in a particular language corresponds to the devil's number. At what point as a Christian do the alarm bells go off?

mjpb, we are getting off topic but I doubt this is worth a seperate thread.
There are plenty not on the list, off the top of my head from local memory - Clark Taylor founder of the "Christian Outreach Center" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Outreach_Centre -resigned after at least one affair. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/07/28/1090694012667.html?from=storyrhs

Reg Klimionok (http://klimionok.com/Files/ministry.htm) who started Garden City Christian Church (http://www.gardencity.org.au/) resigned in the midst of serious questions about financial dealings. I don't know the ins and outs of it, he may have been the victim of some factional fighting but at the time it looked bad.

Some more interesting stuff at
http://www.christian-witness.org/archives/van2002/houston2_15.html

One thing that sets these apart from Gibo's world is that they are mostly mega-church types, Gibo's is apparently small. I've not been close enough for some time to have current knowledge but in the 80's and early 90's it was quite astounding how many penticostal pastors from all sized churched had been caught out in sexual immorality (by the standards they preached).

For the record there are others who has far as I know have lived what they preached, Bill Newman (http://www.billnewman.org.au/Home.html) is one who as far as I know lived what he preaches. I don't know his current denominational affiliation, he used to have an Open Brethren church as his home church. You might also find the article at http://www.mysite.com.au/client_sites/694/oct_dec_1.pdf interesting, do a search on Camira and read the section that follows.

My posts are not entirely altruistic I'm hoping that you will realise that Gibo and the other fundies do to the rest of us what Gibo is doing to catholicism. There are some on the site who are seriously anti-christain, others such as myself object to the lies and spin peddled by Gibo and others against those who don't hold to their particular beliefs. Did you see Gibo's comments about Philo when Philo dared to disagree with Gibo on matters theological http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1598#31359

R0bert

Mjpb.
The photo in the SMH clearly portrayed the Pope taking the worship. If I can dig up the reference I will do so.
Committed christians by the way wont be found on their bellies before any leader extending their worship.
The line between worship of the man out front and worship of God would be too vague.
It could be misconstrued so easily...and by God.
Pentecostals might be found on their backs on the floor receiving help from The Holy Spirit.
Any worship we do will be with hands the air direct to God.
Pope also means papa or father and Jesus told His followers never to call anyone on earth father...Matthew 23:9.
You might be wise to seperate from the system your in before the Tribulation period really begins.
Revelation tells us that the Mystery Babylon system is going to get obliterated by God during that period in future history.

Back on topic, OLO forum members may be interested in a poll currently running at the "New Matilda" website:

<< The t-shirt I'll be wearing on World Youth Day will say:

* Ratzinger is a hottie!

* Jesus saves, Buddha invests

* Jesus is a communist

* The Pope: Proudly sponsored by Telstra

* I was molested by a Priest and all I got was this lousy t-shirt >>

I voted for the second option :D

I understand Gibo's feelings about Catholics worshipping the Pope, but I think you would find the same thing going on in other churches. I was nearly run out of a church once for openly criticising Benny Hinn. As far as I'm concerned the only authority for Christians is the Bible, not the Pope, Benny Hinn or any other leading preacher in one of the mega churches.
I'm not sure Gibo about your claims about the Catholic Church being the Whore of Babylon. I think this worldwide false church is yet to be established. The Catholic Church is Christian based, even if Chirstians like you and me do not agree with many of its teachings. I think the false church will embrace completely different teachings. I believe the anti-christ will be very popular, and as can be seen in these threads, the Catholic Church and the Pope are not popular with the majority of people.

Youre right Steel the final One World (persecuting) Church (the Whore) is as yet to manifest in its full form.
The RC Empire though is the only large worldwide church wooing everyone over to their group. Big cultures, small minority groups, other christian churches....all are the target.
Some years ago the now Australian Christian Churches went and formed their group in opposition to what was apparant and being built by Rome.
True christian believers will stand apart.
I prayed for rain for the gayboy Mardi Gras.
I will do it for the occasion of such a powerful recruitment drive as the RC Empire/One World Church world youth day:)

If Gibo were to express his sentiments on a t-shirt during the coming Catholic Haj, he'd be potentially subject to a $5500 fine...

Not that Gibo'd be interested, but Catholic priest Fr Frank Brennan has written a good article on the issue, at http://www.eurekastreet.com.au/article.aspx?aeid=7930 .

Robert

For once I agree with the general thread of your post. It is true that many evangelical/pentecostal leaders have failed (sinned) miserably. It is especially sad that in many cases they have failed to live up to what they preached to others. They along with all other humans (whether atheist, Buddhist, earth worshippers, global warming cultist, hindus. doctors, priests, sports coaches) have demonstrated how hopelessly lost humanity is without the Lord Jesus Christ.

The very fact that you seem to delight in their downfall shows that you at least admit adultery, hypocrisy and lying is wrong. Thank God that His Son paid the price for sinners. Without Him we are all hopelessly lost.

'afternoon to you - COL ROUGE...

Sorry for the delay in responding to your 'post'. Anyway here I am.

Of course you're absolutely correct in saying the police must/should serve their employers, the public. I have no arguement with you on that point COL.

The difficulty is, in the ideal world police could and would serve those who pay them, the community. However, I'm sure you'll agree that we are living in very troubled times where often, there's no clear line of delineation between police service to the community and the sometimes nebulous and ambiguous directions of their political masters (also servants of the public I believe).

You can be assured COL that I could cite, ad infinitum, incidences in which I was either directly or indirectly involved. Matters that were ultimately 'signed off'. And in my opinion, definitely NOT in the service of the public, nor in the public interest either.

Another correspondent OLIVER, stated herein, (words to the effect) "...if coppers, had any conflict in their minds, apropos the morality or legality, of direction/s given to them by their political masters, then they should either resign or strike..." !

Idealism, in it's purist form. However impractical or quixotic it
may be. Must admit though, I totally agree with him, fanciful or not!

COL, unfortunately I don't possess the necessary intellectual 'where with all' to mount any sort of persuasive arguement in support of the coppers. I, and the VAST majority of police, have tried to stay on the straight 'n narrow during their careers. Unfortunately, a few fell by the wayside. And those few are enough to besmirch and sully the good fame and reputation of the majority. And I reckon that's pretty sad !

Gibo,

"The photo in the SMH clearly portrayed the Pope taking the worship."

That is inconsistent with the religion. The Pope was not the object of the worship.*sigh*

"Committed christians by the way wont be found on their bellies before any leader extending their worship."

Not even for Jesus Christ like the priests do?

"The line between worship of the man out front and worship of God would be too vague."

C'mon God is pretty cluey. Even I can figure it out. He would have no problem.

"It could be misconstrued so easily...and by God."

He doesn't misconstrue.

"Any worship we do will be with hands the air direct to God."

They'd better not get photographed glancing at the pastor while they are doing it or someone from another denomination with your approach might start making accusations.

"Pope also means papa or father and Jesus told His followers never to call anyone on earth father...Matthew 23:9."

That is clear hyperbole if you read the scriptures. That does relate to what we have been discussing but not in that literal sense that you are trying to impose on it. I don't have time right now but do pentecostals seriously refrain from calling their own Dad father or using the word "teacher" which Jesus would be prohibiting a few verses away or variations such as "doctor"? If you do call someone on earth these things contrary to your above assertion that isn't wrong because there is no reason to refrain. What you are asserting is nonsense. You are distorting Jesus' message by imposing a literal interpretation that neither suits the obvious hyperbole nor other scriptures. That is a classic Jehovah's Witness tactic. This isn't the forum for that type of thing but if you really want to go there (with perhaps a warning statement/explanation for those who don't like seeing scriptures in here)...

I know about Jimmy Swaggart RObert.
And about Jimmy Bakker.
And I know that they didnt give up but got their counselling and went back to preaching.
AAwww shucks...you just cant keep good men down!
When did you last sin against Bible standards. We all do from time to time. Im sure I do it daily.
Christs' followers go to Jesus and ask for their forgiveness... and get it.

That was a good article CJ.
He's a good man.
My overall concern is with One World Church and what it will do to christian believers in the endtimes.
Revelation speaks about christians loosing their heads (Rev.20:4) for not recieving the mark/microchip the false prophets' friend, the antichrist, is going to force on the world population (Revelation 13:16-18).
It was only a few years ago there was genocide in Bosnia and death camps. It can happen in Europe all over again if another Adolf Hitler pops up and connects with a "religious" Mussolini.

Belly
I agree with you and I tried to make your questions stronger as I agree with pelican,Bronwyn,etc about taxpayers money and I tried to make their questions stronger. You misunderstand me!

Col Rouge
Simple I discover that you are better than I thought, for me democracy and freedom of expression are EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!

Antonis Symeonakis
Adelaide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Swaggart#Self
"Against the ruling of the governing body of the Assemblies of God, Swaggart returned to his television pulpit long before his three-month suspension expired. He stated, "If I do not return to the pulpit this weekend, millions of people will go to hell." Believing that Swaggart was not genuinely repentant in not submitting to their authority, the Assemblies of God immediately defrocked Swaggart, removing his credentials and ministerial license.

On October 11, 1991, Swaggart was found in the company of another prostitute, Rosemary Garcia"

"AAwww shucks...you just cant keep good men down!" - Apparently not ;)

R0bert

Amazing isn't it how those who deny absolutes are so quick to apply absolutes to Christians. Well I suppose they are blinded to their own hypocrisy!

CJ

"I voted for the second option."

No, with all due respect, if I was risking a $5500 fine, I think I'd probably want something a bit better than any of those.

Some of Belly's ideas could be worked into pretty good T-shirt slogans with a bit of tweaking. "Would it be a crime to have a shirt that asked the church to say sorry to its victims of sexual abuse? Or its crimes against Aboriginals? Or to ask how did it get so wealthy in so many very poor countries?" Yes, definitely some good potential there, Belly.

"If Gibo were to express his sentiments on a t-shirt during the coming Catholic Haj..."

He's certainly got some classics to choose from! Just a quick skim through (well a bit slower than my normal very quick skim through) came up with this little selection and I'm sure there's plenty more to be found.

"I prayed for rain for the gayboy Mardi Gras."

"True Christian believers will stand apart."

"Christianity is so simple."

"In the RC empire you can find anything."

"ONE WORLD CHURCH"

"Check out The False Prophet."

"There's no appearance of the beast yet but he will be along soon."

Rich pickings indeed, Gibo, you could go into business. I particularly like the second one. It appeals to my atheistic sensibilities. "True Christian believers", to me, will always stand apart - from each other! They are more divided than non-believers could ever be.

If we were voting on this little lot, I know you'd just have to go for the last one, CJ!

runner, so you don't think that those who preach absolutes should stick by vwhat they preach (or at least make a passing attempt).

We are all human and will stuff up occasionally but for someone who was so big on preaching morality and condemming others hiring hookers is a biggy. Did you ever see any of Swaggarts preaching?

Back to the topic, does anybody know if the annoyance factor applies to participants wearing tee shirts or holding up banners which annoy non-participants?

Some christain tee-shirts can be quite annoying.

R0bert

sung wu “service to the community and the sometimes nebulous and ambiguous directions of their political masters (also servants of the public I believe).”

There in lies the BIG problem of powerful government, loss of respect for the rights of the individual over the expedient needs of the empowered bureaucrat.

“apropos the morality or legality, of direction/s given to them by their political masters, then they should either resign or strike..." !

Idealism, in it's purist form. However impractical or quixotic it
may be. Must admit though, I totally agree with him, fanciful or not!”

Idealism, as any pragmatist will tell you is never achievable.

However, that does not make it any less an ideal to strive for.

Politics is supposedly the art of the possible, a standard which falls way short of anything approaching idealism and probably goes somewhere to explaining the expedient and sloppy attitude of most politicians.

However, when faced with bad but expedient legislation which unduly impinge on the rights of individuals, it does put police in a hard place.

But it should also put judges and magistrates in a hard place too.

Maybe the bench as a softer cushion to sit on than coppers, either way, when it comes to ethics and expediency, I would hope I have the courage to act ethically.

“COL, unfortunately I don't possess the necessary intellectual 'where with all' to mount any sort of persuasive arguement in support of the coppers.”

I dunno about that, you do a pretty good job : - )

“Unfortunately, a few fell by the wayside. And those few are enough to besmirch and sully the good fame and reputation of the majority.”

We all need to accept in the police and every other profession from the church (especially) to medicals and beyond, that people change and some who end up bad were OK when they went through the selection process.

IMHO, the failing of the police, as an organization, will only ever be if they fail to route out those bad ones

ASymeonakis “Col Rouge
Simple I discover that you are better than I thought, for me democracy and freedom of expression are EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!,”

Thank you, all that I write is aimed at protecting the individual from the excesses of the state or large organisations.

Ultimately, we experience most things as individuals, not as a community or society.

Democracy and freedom of expression, association etc is no different.

No point in having a strong and powerful society if it comes at a price bought through the subjugation of the individual.

Although the Church of Rome would not agree with me but then, nor would Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, Robert Mugabe or any other despotically motivated tyrant or tyrannically (power) motivated theocrat.

Fight every fine .
The chance of getting a judge that can't see through the bull is very
high nowadays.
Make the officer spend most of their time in court and then they may ,just maybe , learn to use the discretionary power they have to warn and teach the right way.
Has any senior officer told the new constable's that being called a pig should bring a thank you.
I was ,at first use, told by a police officer very early in life that this was an acronym for , Pride Integrity and Guts ,and it made me
very aware that these men and women mostly earn their respect .
As for the main intention of this post I will be complaining that the political ads that annoy me and ruin my pleasure and just maybe press charges over
the union stickers plastered everywhere .

"My overall concern is with One World Church and what it will do to christian believers in the endtimes."

Fine but you were pointing the finger at Catholicism based on numerology, lies, and then took a swipe at it for calling people on earth Father suggesting that God prohibits that. So do you and other people in your church refrain from calling anyone on earth father or were you being a hypocrite? Sorry if I'm biting on that but I can't believe a pentecostal using a Jehovah's Witness scripture twisting and you really need to think about what you are doing.

You do realize that our Churches are not at war but both Churches have a problem with lies (the Jesuit's claims about the Pope, the admissions of the Mystery Babylon propagators), dabbling in the occult(numerology), and Jehovah's Witness' beliefs (pretending that it is forbidden to call anyone on earth father when they do it themselves to convince Catholics to become JWs)(the primary objection for both our Churches though is that they call themselves Christians but don't believe Our Lord is God).

Dear CJ,

I've got another one for you,
(seen on a billboard in LA).

"In God We trust,
everyone else pays cash!"

Im not picking on you mjpb.
Those words about not calling anyone on earth are not Jehovahs Witnesses words they are Jesus Christs' if you care to read Matthew 23:9. Click on it.

We dont call anyone father in the pentecostals.
I might call him/her Pastor or just use his/her first name (we're real friendly...not much religion for us pentecostal born againers).

Knowledgeable christian folk do not approve of the RC Empire it primarily being a mutation of the old Caesars.
The Inquistion showed her real heart and apoligies dont chnage that heart.
The same evil spirit powers that got RC-ism up and running are still in control of much of the system today.
The move towards total control of ALL of the worlds religions and cultures by the Vatican offers misery for many if it really gets going.

"...anyone on earth father"...

I've just come across an interesting
website:

http://www.newmatilda.com/2008/03/27/whos-paying-world-youth-day

"Who's Paying for World Youth Day?" by Jennifer Mills

It gives quite a bit of a budget breakdown.

Included in the breakdown was the following:

"Pilgrims pay a registration fee ranging from $50 to $395,
depending on their country of origin...
World Youth Day's own attendance estimates have ranged from
125,000 to 500,000... so that could generate between
$6 and almost $200 million."

That's interesting.

The "Grand Prix," in Melbourne is costing the tax payers a loss
of more than $35 million, annually.

Foxy,

Talk about pissing on their parade. All that wishful thinking about the public expense down the drain because they didn't look at the big picture and consider income. Ooops! Since the issue is so important to them I don't suppose they will turn around and support World Youth Day due to the money it will make us.

Gibo,

I know it is Jesus' words that you are taking out of context. I don't need to look them up. Taking those specific words out of context to trick Catholics is a classic Jehovah's Witness stunt.

I know pastors in the Pentecostal Church aren't referred to by people other than their kids as father. But if you take Jesus' hyperbolic words literally to condemn that description of Catholic priests it is hypocritical if you call your dad father (if they are on earth). In the same chapter it also prohibits calling people teacher and leader. I have never heard a pentecostal come out with that nonsense before. The fact that across religions everyone refers to their dad as father sufficiently shows that calling someone on earth father is not confined to Catholicism. However if you want me to quote more scriptures to show how nonsensical that interpretation is I am willing.

"Knowledgeable christian folk do not approve of the RC Empire it primarily being a mutation of the old Caesars..."

If you thought it was the best choice of denomination you would be a Catholic so naturally you assume something like that. However you went way beyond that with fraternising with occultists for an over the top conspiracy theory. Then you turned to that JW trick.

"The same evil spirit powers that got RC-ism up and running are still in control of much of the system today."

Your opinion seems to be based on bad people within a 1.5 billion person Church, a lying person purporting to be an ex-Jesuit (who even claims the Pope, who prohibits Catholics from being Masons, is Masonic) and some people who dabble in the occult. That is hardly compelling.

Given Gibo's comments regarding Roman Catholicism and considering Gibo is a Pentecostal.
I went to my church yesterday, a Pentecostal Church in a rural community near Sydney, and our church bulletin published an invite to a special combined service at the local Catholic Church to commemorate WYD. Also, the local Catholic Church is asking if anybody in other churches in town can provide accomodation for pilgrims from overseas.
Incidentally, I used to attend a Charismatic Anglican Church, where the pastor was referred to as the Priest, and he was addressed as father.
I'm not in agreement with many Roman Catholic teachings, but I can still accept them as fellow Christians, just as I can accept that there are actually born again Christians within the Morman and Jehovah's Witness churches.

Thanks Steel Mann.

Your anglican comments ring a bell. Thanks for reminding me. But I hope you get my point that if we were really disallowed from calling anyone on earth father literally it wouldn't just be Catholics (and protestants who do the same) who would have a problem. We would be prohibited from calling our dad Father. Apart from being such a universal practice it is also easily verifiably ok from scripture.

A protestant on the radio this morning was opining that World Youth Day could be expected to have flow on benefits for all Christian denominations at the least. Then of course there is the benefits to the general community from the high spirited youth and unprecedented tourist dollars. There is also the possibility of an apology from the Pope given his American precedent. Given the reception of Rudd's apology that would probably also be well received. Anyway chances are the radio guy has a point and Gibo is shooting himself in the foot.

On that note the really bad thing is that I suspect Christianity often doesn't get a fair deal because atheists see things like Gibos attacks on another mainstream Christian Church and think that Christians are an unpalatable bunch all at war who need to be kept at arms length.

mjpb>"Christianity often doesn't get a fair deal"?

They are tax exempt. They spread their ignorance and intolerance into our politcal system. The Catholics are loyal to the Pope before Australia; other denominations to other countries...I mean how gullible can you get? ..Gay marriage; Contraception; Censorship; "Intelligent Design" ...all these are supported tacitly by the moderates, who have no real power within their churches.

mjpb, " suspect Christianity often doesn't get a fair deal because atheists see things like Gibos attacks on another mainstream Christian Church and think that Christians are an unpalatable bunch all at war who need to be kept at arms length."

From my perspective (agnostic not athiest) my respect for christains goes up when you stand up and be counted against the extremists. Far too few christains on these forums have had the courage to challenge Gibo (Philo being a notable exception). Silence and ignoring differences with those such as Gibo makes you look bad, making it clear that you and your faith are different helps your case.

If christains were at the forefront of rebutting "christian" extremists others of us might be able to pay less attention to them.

R0bert

mjpb

"and think that Christians are an unpalatable bunch all at war who need to be kept at arms length."
Does that 'length' include a bayonet?

Gibo

I think you to be on the right track as far as "world-order" is concerned.Fighting for freedom is needed here. Any religious sentiment or thoughts are "anti-freedom" as one follows someone else's thoughts,laws and writings.All religions were thought of by one person per sect and being ridiculed first by the masses then when power was obtained by coercion a separation between peoples were established with the result of wars forever after.
This (provoking uproar)in fact is being used by the elite to come in at the end to force us into slavery.
The elite is trying to put one group against another, whether they are religious or not. They also are against Christians.
A good example of tactics recently being displayed,was happening in the UK, where a woman recognised a demonstrator to be from the police force activating the riot which intended to be peaceful. Work that one out! I would suggest to google Freedom Force International and be on the email list at least.Reason being: FFI needs people in power at local and federal government level to slowly build an anti-world domination force. (as the elite does)

You dont think Christs Words are literal mjpb about not calling anyone father on earth? What are they then?
How do you know Alberto Riviera was lying.
He as a Jesuit who saw what he saw within the RC Empire and testified about it.
You just dont want to believe the RC Empire is corrupt thats all. Theres a good many good people in it for sure... but its still corrupt.
People even today pay priests their hard earned money to pray their dead relatives out of a mythical place call purgatory.
I heard testimony of a farmer in NZ who paid huge amounts of his money to get his brother out of this mythical place....yet the Bible tells us there is one death then the Judgment.
The whole Empire is a money earner.

Thanks for that site eftfnc.
I'll take time to look at it...may even sign on.
Most of the guys here dont really know me.
I came into Christianity through "The Cosmic Conspiracy" and at the time had some experience writing letters to editors.
Naturally I started out all over again as a born again christian, and thanks to Stan Deyos book, writing on the New World Order.
I then came across other conspiracies that sounded real. The one Im writing on here is about the RC Empire taking over the worlds religions in ONE WORLD CHURCH. Its is real.
The history of the RC Empire totally speaks for itself...so brainwashed are the devout ones they cannot see what the Holy Bible says about the churches practices.
For years only the priests would interprete The Word of God. Now most of the older ones are so beguilled they still allow that to happen.
Its not a good system that conducts Inquisitions and doesnt repent of them.
They still store records today as far as I know on people who resist their great global plans.

Steel,

"mjpb>"Christianity often doesn't get a fair deal"?

They are tax exempt...all these are supported tacitly by the moderates, who have no real power within their churches."

I was just referring to the overzealous and over the top rivalry that inflates differences between denominations and is extremely poor pr for their own group. I doubt that an atheist reader will think that the Pope is an anti-Christ after reading Gibo's assertions but they probably won't think much of Christians after reading that.

Robert,

I understand what you are saying. My problem is that he is attacking Catholics and I am a Catholic so standing up to him is quite self serving. I have a lot of time for Pentecostals normally but he is saying some pretty inappropriate things about my denomination. Runner is probably and Steel Mann is definitely pentecostal themselves and they spoke up and are probably more deserving of your thumb up.

Gibo,

"You dont think Christs Words are literal ...What are they then?"

Hyperbole. So do people in your Church ever use the word father to describe their dad on earth?

"How do you know Alberto Riviera was lying."

His story about the Pope being a mason is a dead give away considering the anti-mason stance of the Church.

"People even today pay priests their hard earned money to pray their dead relatives out of a mythical place call purgatory..."

I associate this with medieval Tetzel acting contrary to Church regulations by selling indulgences and Pope Pius V's response of cancelling all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions. I suspect some people will say anything to get their 15 minutes but I don't really know what the situation was and I know of your tendency to jump to conclusions so I don't want to draw any firm conclusions about the farmer.

mjpb, you think poeple like Gibo affect the Catholic Church? Well too bad... The catholic church's message of moderation is a clever trick to sway gullible and well-meaning citizens. It's a trick which fools many Catholic moderates also, into supporting the bigotry and religious laws and policies.

Anyway...when youre thinking RC church think all-consuming giant global One World Church that controls lives and engages persecutions against all those who dessent...this is the Mystery Babylon of the Book of Revelation.
The New World (Economic) Order with the antichrist on one side...and on the other his friend the coming One World Church religious "Mussolini" known in the Word as the False Prophet.
Millions of committed christians not beguilled by the RC Empire believe this to be true.
Many have websites (the signs that we are in the endtimes is good) and many have written books over many deaceds in modern times on the subject of the Bibles endtimes.
The Pope is coming out to gather for that big endtimes church. Not converts to Jesus but converts for the RC Empire.

Or perhaps

"Anyway...when youre thinking AOG church think all-consuming giant global One World Church that controls lives and engages persecutions against all those who dessent...this is the Mystery Babylon of the Book of Revelation.
The New World (Economic) Order with the antichrist on one side...and on the other his friend the coming One World Church religious "Mussolini" known in the Word as the False Prophet.
Millions of sane people not beguilled by the AOG Empire believe this to be true. "

Just a thought and it seems to fit about as well.

R0bert

What should the Christian bishops be saying to the Pope about this:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/07/07/1215282750977.html

If true their convictions they should be very, very vocal.

O.

AOG is cool RObert.
But they are not the the only pentecostal churches.
Pentecostal churches are growing at a huge rate because they provide for their congregations by fully openning up to The Holy Spirit. Theres not much ceremony and no Mother Mary worship or the worship of so-called saints or the worship of idols (touching the foot of the statue of St Peter in the Vatican Square for luck)...just love and a closeness to God.
Our churches JUMP because we are the happiest of church goers.

Gibo, there is idolitry in the Pentecostal Churches. Many young people go to these churches simply because they love the music and somehow Christ is ignored. Many small Pentecostal Churches don't have the resources to put on a good musical performance but they are still worshipping the same God.

I know you don't like Hillsong that much and neither do I. Actually, I wish Hillsong would leave the AOG and become their own denomination, so that the AOG Church I attend is not connected with them.

"we are the happiest of church goers" - if true that does not say much for the rest of them.

Seriously though as a part of that overall movement you see the bits you like and brush over the stuff that does not reflect your views of what it's all about as do people in almost any movement/group. A catholic may love a whole bunch of things about they practices of their church and for the most part put aside the bits that don't reflect what they think the church is about. The same with other denominational groups.

I pick on AOG a bit because the language gets clumsy for the whole movement and they have been associated with so many scandles and in my view they are one of the more conceited arrogant christain groups. They spend so much time telling themselves that they have something that others don't they many actually start to believe it, effective marketting but not reality.

As an outsider who has had a lot to do with penticostals over many years they have been the most miserable, greedy, grasping and shallow christians I've known amongst those who treat faith as something other than a part of their culture.

Some notable exceptions but for the most part I've seen people who are much more about self than those from other christain denominations. My impression is that many are the christian equivalent of binge drinkers or rave party goers, quite convinced that you the only happiness lies in their recreations and seemingly unware of the deeper joy of those who don't do it their way.

R0bert

So whats the perfect church?
I reckon it would be the Salvation Army, with its heart for the poor and pensioner, and once again on-fire with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Once the Salvos were more on fire and helpful to the street folks than todays pentecostals.

R0bert,

I can understand you're feelings for the AOG church. I spent over 10 years away from this group because I was sick and tired of the scandals you mention and well as making claims of miracles that could not be substantiated. My decision to return to the church was not one I took lightly, but as I recently moved, I needed to find a new church and the local AOG was the best group available. We are not hyper like many Pentecostal Churches. Our pastor has been in the ministry for over 20 years and is a man with maturity and doesn't accept a lot of the rot that goes on in other Pentecostal groups. Unfortunately, even within my own congregation there is some arrogance among members.

Gibo, I believe the Salvation Army means very well, and I have a great respect for their members, however I no longer support this group financially as I have seen the type of people they are supporting. I used to live in a suburb with a lot of people living on welfare. The Salvation Army would deliver food hampers to families already receiving plenty of welfare, and these families would enjoy their Christmas eating the food provided by the Salvo's while drinking the grog they bought out of their welfare payments.

What Christians can do Gibo, if they have financial means to do so, is take a Pensioner couple or single out to a nice cafe or restaurant for lunch. Make friends with underprivilaged families, and buying small gifts for their children at Christmas, Easter & birthdays. I have friends in these categories, and I get blessed simply by having the friendship.

Gibo,

You are not being very responsive to my actual comments. They relate strongly to your “anyway”. I think Robert addressed your "anyway" post quite nicely. I just hope you understand his point.

“Theres not much ceremony…”

So my experience suggesting it would be more correct to say “not as much ceremony as the Catholic Church” would be wrong? You don’t start off with a period of praise and worship (songs) for about the same time every week and then announcements, tithes and offerings, sermon, then alter call or prayer? Personally I consider that much ceremony to develop in one century (since it commenced in 1906). In the Catholic Church there is more but it took 9 centuries to develop (although admittedly a significant portion of the most ceremonial aspects developed earlier such as Nicene Creed in 325 and Lord’s prayer even earlier), language standardized in the middle ages, and then both language and ceremony changed again in about the 1960s.

A procession to the front with the Word of God held up and placed on a lecturn, a standard greeting, prayer, singing and scriptural readings. The priest introduces the gospel reading with “A reading from the Holy Gospel according to” and everyone else says “Glory to you Lord”. At the end of the gospel reading the priest says “This is the Gospel of the Lord” and everyone else says “Praise to you Lord Jesus Christ”, there is a sermon, passing round the plate, The Nicene Creed is recited, more prayers, a standard interaction “The Lord Be With You” “And also with you” etc., then “Holy Holy Holy Lord…”, more prayer including the Lord’s prayer, and taking communion. That’s about it.

“no Mother Mary worship”
prohibited by Catholicism.

“worship of so-called saints”
prohibited by Catholicism

“worship of idols”
If I read that as idolatry it depends on how broadly you interpret that:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/cl/2008/002/25.15.html
If you consider it as broadly as in the above article then it is probably a universal challenge.

Gibo, you have suprised me with that response. An interesting question and perhaps a good one for a new thread. We are obviously well off topic on this one.

I'm thinking about my response so what follows is just musings.

Given that I think the foundation of the christain church is false it's hard for me to answer directly.

Hypothetically if your god existed and the basic core teachings were true then one where believers actually lived as though they believed in eternity both joyful and terrible. A preacher with private jet's, expensive toilet fittings, BMW's etc does not really believe that they will live forever nor do they really believe that others will spend an eternity in hell.

The christian co-worker in the workplace obsessed with the latest christain band at their church does not really believe in those things either. The christain who lies or deceives to promote their faith does not really believe in an all knowing god who is truth.

A catholic monk or nun devoting their lives to the poor may do so (or it may be something else). Somehow I doubt that those who rise to power in a church where the leaders live in palaces, dress in ornate robes and have people kiss their rings much believe in those things either.

R0bert

Oliver,

The general situation was that the priest had made advances to alter boys and had tried to rape Mr Jones during a visit at the priest’s home where Goodall tried to rape him in bed after he didn’t ‘come across’ earlier in the evening when being fondled in the pool. Pell apparently wrote him two letters. The first one is contentious.

Funny how the human memory operates. I was listening to the stories on the ABC yesterday and the way I recalled it Mr Jones was 28 when Goodall tried to rape him rather than 29 and instead of Pell writing “no other victims had come forward” it was more like words to the effect “no one else has accused him of rape”. On the ABC the contentious issue appeared to be Pell’s using the term "sexual assault" for rape which reporters considered indefensible and unintelligible to anyone but lawyers. Funny because since high school I have always understood sexual assault to mean rape. If the Bishops shared my experience it wouldn’t be as clear cut as you suggest.

Steel Mann. I disagree about the Salvos. For a longtime they seem to have been wandering. A long time ago they left many of the Gifts of The Holy Spirit but their hearts are still for Christ. One day they will repent of their present direction and come alive again.
Then they will be truly back with the poor and needy and preaching Jesus as the Answer far more openly. Their foundation is still strong though their arms are weak.

Mjpb...I really only jumped in on the Police state/World Youth Day thing to mention how I thought about the RC Empire, not to conflict so much with anyone over what the RC Empire does in the ungodliness of their practices, but to expose their plans for the global takeover of all other religions and cutlures.

The Popes out here to gather not for Jesus but for the Vatican
Later on... the Book of Revelation tells me quite clearly...that One World Church is going to kill many people.
It will be an extremely dark European climate when this happens. That climate seems to be a re-occuring cycle with that part of the world.

I simply dont want the Pope out here gathering Australians for that global church without comment on what the conspiracy is.
Its all down to loss of freedom and lives in those very dark days as the coming False Prophet dances with the European antichrist.
Another Hitler and a very bad European religious leader.

Gibo,

I was giving my reasons for not supporting the Salvo's. I'm not blaming them, its just there are a lot of people bludging of them who don't really need their help. It's hard for the Salvo's to know who are genuine and who are not. I prefere to do my giving directly to the needy. I will often ring up poor families who I am friends with and suggest I pick up food and have dinner with them. For a welfare family with 6 kids, a meal of take away pizzas or KFC is a luxury they don't get very often. They appreciate that and I also get blessed by the families friendship. You may not be able to do this, and therefore giving to the Salvo's is probably a better option than giving money directly to the homeless on the streets.

Gibo,

“Mjpb...I really only jumped in on the Police state/World Youth Day thing to mention how I thought about the RC Empire, not to conflict so much with anyone over what the RC Empire does in the ungodliness of their practices, but to expose their plans for the global takeover of all other religions and cutlures.”

And that remains the major problem but I am open to going into more detail about the father thing as it isn’t an ungodly practice. You subscribe to a viewpoint based on things you have read from someone who is clearly being fraudulent and you have apparently shored up your belief by turning to occultists and liars. The mere fact that the Bible speaks of certain problems doesn’t mean it is associated with the Catholic Church any more than the Pentecostal Church.

Fine lets not get into what you consider ungodly Catholic practices but please give some thought to what you are alleging and where you got the idea from at a time when you are opposing something that can benefit your Church. You are batting for the wrong side and that is what you get if you get led by occultists and liars.

Steel Mann,

“You may not be able to do this, and therefore giving to the Salvo's is probably a better option than giving money directly to the homeless on the streets.”

…considering he probably won’t be donating to St Vinnies or Rosies in a hurry.

I dont give to the Salvos much Steel M. They stick it in bank accounts to amount interest and it doesnt go out to the people. It sort of trickles out. Much probably goes into admin which is the sign of an apostate church.

mjpb,

Thanks.

I didn't necessarily have this one case in my cross-hairs. But it is topical at the moment and an opportune time to comment. Moreover, it is rather, the way of bishops seem to know of the activities of rough priests, and, seemingly are cover-up artists.

Even when found out the police stand-clear of the higher-ups. Abeit,occassionally a perpetrator might be charged.

If Bank manager hid a teller's fraud he/she would be in serious trouble. Yet, fraud is a less serious crime.

I mentioned current incident to a friend in Texas, and he said it is the US news at least once a month.

Oliver,

"If Bank manager hid a teller's fraud he/she would be in serious trouble. Yet, fraud is a less serious crime."

That makes a nice sound byte but it isn't really a fair comparison. Bank managers don't have any equivalent of confession and the employee would not be owed any confidentiality when the bank manager found out. A better comparison might be solicitor and client where, although not a religious belief, the lawyer owes a duty of confidentiality. Why don't you also call for lawyers be required to dob in their clients to police if they find out that they are guilty of a crime?

I don't believe the duty of confidentiality is as rigid with the mental health professionals who treated the abusers. Why not vent on the mental health profession?