"Some 93% of those polled called themselves "moderate" Muslims
The largest survey to date of Muslims worldwide suggests the vast majority want Western democracy and freedoms, but do not want them to be imposed.

The poll by Gallup of more than 50,000 Muslims in 35 nations found most wanted the West to instead focus on changing its negative view of Muslims and Islam.

The huge survey began following the 11 September 2001 attacks in the US.

The overwhelming majority of those asked condemned them and subsequent attacks, citing religious reasons.

The poll, which claims to represent the views of 90% the world's 1.3 billion Muslims, is to be published next month as part of a book entitled Who Speaks For Islam? What A Billion Muslims Really Think."

And

"The research also indicates most Muslims want guarantees of freedom of speech and would not want religious leaders to have a role in drafting constitutions.

Those polled also said the most important thing the West could do to improve relations with Muslim societies was to change its negative views towards Muslims and respect Islam.

The authors said the conflict between Islam and the West was not inevitable, but needed decision makers to listen and consider new policies if the extremists on both sides were not to gain ground.

Read it all at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7267100.stm

So, who's going to tell Boazy?

Thank you so much for trying Vanilla.

But so,so, many refuse to listen.

Wait for it!

fortunately, we don't have to care what boaz thinks. we do have to care what the american political elite think, and they think they have found a replacement for communism as the devil incarnate.

it's too bad the mugs there, and here, are dimwitted, or at least ignorant, but it's been like that since og led the war against zog, with the war cry "zogians are devils!"

i wonder if a parallel poll was done among christians, asking: "how do you feel about [turn the other cheek] and [do unto others] as applied to humans on the other side of the county line?"

Vanilla,
Turkey is preparing to publish a document that represents a revolutionary reinterpretation of Islam - and a controversial and radical modernisation of the religion.
As part of its aggressive programme of renewal, Turkey has given theological training to 450 women, and appointed them as senior imams called "vaizes".They have been given the task of explaining the original spirit of Islam to remote communities in Turkey's vast interior.
read the whole article at BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7264903.stm
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

VANILLA..

I have a better question. "When will you 'get it' that I am not attacking 'all muslims'"

I am doing 2 things.

1/ Raising awareness of some of the darker aspects of Islam, and for the record.. MOST Muslims don't have the slightest clue about them, which is why I don't sink my teeth into 'Muslims'... (except those radical ratbags who hold up signs like 'exterminate' us)

2/ Raising awareness of the danger OF the radical ratbags.. and I include among them Wassim Dourhri who was asked 3 times by Tracy Grimshaw "Is Australia an Enemy of Islam" and he avoided the question each time.

If you want a dose of the 'radical' ratbags.. Court 3-3a in County court Melbourne.

So.. I find myself in total agreement with you "93% of Muslims are moderate".... when have I argued against that ?

So, 93% of Muslims call themselves moderate.

They would say that.

My apologies if I've misrepresented you Boazy. I stand corrected.

Islamic fundamentalism attracted a great deal of attention in the West after the Iranian Revolution of 1978-79 - which deposed Iran's ruler, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi (1919-80), and established an Islamic republic - and especially after the September 11 attacks on the United States in 2001 by al-Qaeda, an international Islamist terrorist network.

The spectacular nature of these events have lent plausibility to the common but mistaken belief in the West that Islam and Islamic fundamentalism are closely connected, if not identical. As I've stated in my earlier thread, "Muslims in Australia," in fact, not all Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the literal and inerrant word of God, nor do all of them believe that Islam requires strict conformity to all the religious and moral precepts in the Qur'an.

More important, unlike genuine Islamic fundamentalists, most Muslims are not idealogically committed to the idea of a state and society based on Islamic religious law.

The character of Islamist movements varies greatly throughout the world. Some Islamists resort to terrorism, and some do not.

Among the Islamist movements that have attracted the most attention in the West is the Palestinian movement 'Hamas,' which was founded in 1987. Hamas was created primarily to resist what most Palestinians viewed as the occupation of their land by Israel. There is thus clearly a nationalistic dimension to this movement, though it is also committed to the creation of a strictly Islamic state.

In January 2006 Hamas was the victor by a wide margin in elections to the Palestinian Legislative Council, and it was aksed to form a government. This development led to much speculation among political observers about whether Hamas could evolve into a moderate nonviolent politcal party, as many other terrorist groups have done (e.g. Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang in Israel and the Irish Republican Army in Ireland).

Some Muslim leaders as with Catholic, Anglican and Uniting Church leaders have promoted interfaith religious dialogue in order to encourage greater mutual understanding between peoples.

Integration of the Muslim community has been the subject of debate in Australian society. May it continue...

No Vanilla. You don't stand corrected.

Boaz: "So.. I find myself in total agreement with you "93% of Muslims are moderate".... when have I argued against that?"

You're being disingenous. Okay, you don't condemn all muslims. Instead, you play a game of semantics:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1503#28274

Here you state: "But the point I've also been trying to make..and yes.. ad nauseum, is that the religion itself is evil.. most of its followers are fine."

Allow me to reiterate a certain point: "the religion itself is evil."

Not: "extremist interpretations are evil."

Not: "those who would use it for violence are evil."

Just "Islam is evil."

I for one, think it's how you use a religion that makes it evil or not, but you can't see religion in that way.

So for all your talk that most are moderates, you're still engaged in an ideological war against Islam and regard their faith as evil, whether they're moderate or not in practice. Whether you like to admit it or not, your own Christian fundamentalism has to play a part in your view of religion in general.

PS - what about the other 7%? Did they admit to being fundamentalist soldiers for Allah?

Boaz, I wonder if you would consider the Crusades an extremist act?

Would you consider it extremist when missionaries invaded lands to indoctrinate and force people away from their own important beliefs in ways that would change their culture forever.

It is this arrogance of most religions that presumes ownership of the 'truth'. Everyone else is deluded.

There are extremists in most religions I suspect but most religious people would argue that respect and compassion are paramount. It is man that twists the meaning to suit his/her own purpose or agenda.

Many Muslims and Muslim groups in Australia have been outspoken about their opposition to terrorism.

Does the Bible or the Koran encourage violence to defend their version of God? Maybe someone more learned in the religious texts could answer.

Boazy: "Raising awareness of some of the darker aspects of Islam, and for the record.. MOST Muslims don't have the slightest clue about them"

I suppose like MOST nominal Christians "don't have the slightest clue" about the darker aspects of Christianity, as personified by extremists like Boazy.

ASymeonakis, said

HUGE survey of the world's Muslims challenges Western notions that equate Islam with radicalism and violence.
In majority Muslim countries, overwhelming majorities said religion was a very important part of their lives — 99% in Indonesia, 98% in Egypt, 95% in Pakistan. But only 7% of the Muslims surveyed — the radicals — condoned the attacks on the US on September 11, 2001, the poll found.
Posted by ASymeonakis, Thursday, 28 February 2008 1:52:46 PM
pale comments
Hello Antonio is it possible you could provide a link to those please.

I understand you said you are not Muslim but I have some difficulty understand where you are coming from by your comments.



The structure of Islamic countries is one that you might be considered to be a traitor put your hand up to say Religion was important to you.

There "is no "seperation of religion and law.

Where as In Australias Muslims are in a different position
all together.

They do not have the backing of the majority and they do not feel forced either and would be relucant to put their hands up in public here.

That would be like us going top ME and bagging Muslims not allowing women to drive.

You would be silly to do that publicly. That is how they would view you question.

Under the circumstances sunshine 7% is very worrying.

Dr Ali in the past has written in the Muslim Times of concerns that not enough has been done to speak out by some Muslims and especially Ikabel Patel the new President.

However which ever way you look at it there has to be a bigger effort to work more together rather than us and them
Because then in return they see it as them and us.



As for the Muslim Leaders they must play a very important role.
They must be honerable and keep their word to build trust and show respect.

Have they done this in the past= Who wants to guess?
Boazie cant believe you are so rude not to reply to what I thought a kind invitation

Dear People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming,
As I wrote many times I am atheist if I write something about Muslims is because some westerners create huge problems to Muslims. We must respect and protect their rights. We must learn to cooperate with people from different religious or civilizations.
About the link http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7267100.stm
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Vanilla,
Re the word ‘respect’.
I wonder if we’d all share the same definition?

ASymeonakis
Seems the report you highlighted is packaged to appeal to a western readership.( as PALE hinted) It may not necessarily be a forward step for the govt to be involved in reforming religion.Esp. a Govt that many moderate Turks see as having an “ Islamist ” agenda. (I’ll wait and watch, from the fence ).

TRTL
Re The important distinction(s) between
criticising a belief system V vilifying its adherents.
Stevenmeyer made some pertinent comments in an earlier thread –worth reviewing!

Fellow –Human
Where are you?
We could do with your in-put.

Antonio Said
We must learn to cooperate.... Pale Replies

Horus picked up on something Antonio. Halal controls everything= its mean lawful.
Lawful to whom. Live Exports is unsatisfactory and RSPCA have long demanded it banned]
Do they listen? They were- Or were they just playing games? See-
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

If they think they have the support from Kevin Rudd ' quietly' to continue to promote live or slaughter without stunning then they will.
They are. Animals are being slaughter without stunning in Australia right now and have been for ages.

So ask yourself why this then=

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/03/1995804.htm
And so you have then this=
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Plan-to-push-for-halal-standard-rejected/2007/10/08/1191695801343.html

Any of you that think this is only about animal welfare are kidding.
It control "everything" The word halal Means lawful. It controls what you buy wear eat use.
So when Rudd Put Kerry O’Brien on ABC with their pre election pitches IMOP it was a trick. I should know his advisor called me.

After the elections he was quickly replaced by Tony Burke who is of course saying the opposite.
I spoke with Burke’s advisor two days ago and he said he didn’t know the Halal review had been rejected. Good One. That just great!

Antonio I know you mean well (I Think) unless you’re involved with this lot in Melbourne who wanted to start their own political party and were pissed that ASTIC lost the funding for aboriginals etc ;)

However it is 'them' who must learn to cooperate with us.

If I went to a Muslim Country or you Tony went to a Muslim Country then we would as you said have to learn to cooperate with them.

Now I know how cooperate ;) I know how I would probably not like being able to drive down to the pub to buy my Bundy’s and thee difference is smokes :) Worse still what pub :)

This is why we want the department of Foreign Affairs to be honest. Big ask I know.

Continued
Vanilla
Before you tell us we are off post let us explain =


Here’s your real problem in Australia.

http://www.agfoodgroup.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/284023/Meat_Livestock_Australia.pdf

http://www.austrade.gov.au/Meat-and-meat-products-to-the-Philippines/default.aspx

http://www.austrade.gov.au/Food-and-beverage-to-Spain/default.aspx

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:rpmx7sQ2WZsJ:www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/northafrica/subs/sub5.pdf+Austrade+promoting+co+joint+meat+ventures+Me&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=au

What you see there and it’s just a tap is your Australian Government who heads these departments promoting sending product in its most valuable form- Live. Sure they do other stuff but the attitude is the same.
The Trade Minister= All of them because in fact each Premier of the States has his own power as Trade Minister of the state.

"They are 'all' sending off your kids and grandkids future jobs."

This is what the X President of the Muslim Leaders AFIC had to say a few years ago. Some of you may have seen Dr Ameer Ali on this forum. If you do say hello.

http://www.livexports.com/afic.html

Do not talk about Muslims as if they were specimens. Talk to them and tell them.
GDay Mate hey by the way this is how we do things in Oz
Nicely.

If Muslim Leaders are not acting in the most honorable manner then we have reason for concern.

What we need to do then is to put them on notice just like we would anybody else and say hey support we had a deal and you will honor that deal
You will not go behind our backs and BTW how come your web site doesn’t have much about working with Aussies in it.
You had one on your front page but they asked to be removed- Why?

Under the circumstances Mohamed, Ikabel and perhaps in hindsight don’t you think a bit more Aussie stuff and a bit less of Muslims world united may be seen as somewhat more polite.

After all you are in our country.

We will talk again but we demand respect and honesty the same as we do from our Australian born people.

We need to get far more involved with Muslim People rather than putting them on display( Which I have just done) But that is only to question the integrity of the lead ship not "ALL" Muslims

The silly surveys give little comfort to the thousands of innocent victims of suicide bombers. Whether you are in Madrid, USA. London, Israel, Bali, Cronulla, France or anywhere else on the planet the denial of the problem wont make it go away. Minimize the problem if you like but it won't help past, present or future victims.

Runner: "... the thousands of innocent victims of suicide bombers. Whether you are in Madrid, USA. London, Israel, Bali, Cronulla, France or anywhere else on the planet the denial of the problem wont make it go away. Minimize the problem if you like but it won't help past, present or future victims."

Madrid, USA, London, Israel, Bali, Cronulla...How many innocent victims were there at Cronulla? Let's keep this whole debate calm and evidence-based.

Vanilla,
Could not help but notice that you said "moderate" muslims, with inverted commas. That was a good move as I, as well, ask what is meant by "moderate". Their meaning of "moderate" could be quite different from what westerners believe it means.

When the survey is published, it will be interesting to see if an explaination of the term "moderate" is given and if the pollsters ensured those polled were made aware of the words meaning.

I also notice that the poll covered 35 countries and that makes me wonder how many of those polled were literate and were aware of the world outside of their own community or country.

According to one website that apparently keeps track of these things. Since 9/11 there have been 10647 terrorist attacks and for the month of January 2008, there were 187 attacks, killing 829 and injuring 1378.

THose polled said the west must change its negative attitude towards Islam and muslims. With stats like the above its near impossible to see anything positive. The only thing I can see is that Islam are doing their bit to control world population. Not keen on their methods though.

I wonder if all those who rioted after the Danish cartoons incident said they were "moderate". They had placards saying 'kill those who insult Islam' and 'Behead those who say Islam is violent'.

After each major terrorist attack, muslims claim 'it is only a few'. well those 'few' are pretty good at what they do and get around a bit.

PELICAN...Crusades extremist act ? not at all :) I regard them in many ways.

It depends on which one you are speaking of.

FIRST Crusade... began with motives of military defense, couched in terms of religious righteousness. To the extent that the Emperor fulfilled Gods intent as outlined in Romans 13:1-5 I have to say it was moral and lawful. To the extent that they deviated from the simple challenge of defeating an aggressive enemy and sought privilege, booty, power and wealth.. they were absolutely out of the providential will of God.
Other Crusades might be described as 'Stupid' (the Childrens crusade)
etc..
Some actions carried out in the First Crusade were abhorrent and extreme, and did not in any way reflect Christ or His teaching in regard to enemies. (not even the spirit of his teaching let alone the literal)

FOXY.. and TRTL.. there are some weaknesses in both your positions.

FOXY's "the common but mistaken belief in the West that Islam and Islamic fundamentalism are closely connected, if not identical."

Now..if Foxy was sincere in this, she would have actually disputed things I have clearly laid out and challenged those issues rather than simply describe me in less than glowing terms.. i.e. 'you are prejudiced'

Now..Foxy says it is a "Mistaken" belief that "Islam" and "Islamic Fundamentalism" are the same.

2 answers.

1/ They are not the same because 'ordinary' Islam is 'extreme'
2/ They are the same because it can be proven to be so.

If Foxy had said "Islam..as PRACTICED... by most muslims is not the same as Islamic fundamentalism" I would have no issue with what she said.

But she said 'we are mistaken'..and this, is saying we are
"naive"
"Mislead"
"Confused"
"Lacking in learning"
or all of the above.

One only needs to look at a number of my posts which list specific issues.. to find what 'Islam' by itself..stands for.
Before saying 'You are mistaken' those issues need to be refuted by evidence.

TRTL... you accuse me of playing 'semantics'.. which is another way of saying "I cannot show the error of your facts.. so I'll accuse you of playing games."

Now..you rip into me *ouch* all the time about 'going on ad nauseum'...but who is it who keeps me going ? :) Its...YOU and the likes of Foxy who make these whacky statements based on bleeding heart misguided compassion, rather than fact and evidence.

The major claims I've made re "Islam" are:

1/It allows child abuse. (Marriage, sex,divorce of prebubescent children) (65:4)

2/ It institutionalizes domestic violence against women. (4:34)

3/ It insitutionalizes sexual abuse of captive women. (23:5-6)

4/ It declares a perpetual state of war between Allah and non muslims. (9:29) (This verse is the primary justification used to wage offensive Jihad)

5/ It vilifies Christians and Jews by name.. on the grounds of their core beliefs. (9:30)

BUT.. UR JUST CHERRY PICKING VERSES RIGHT?.. err..'no'.

I can support each assertion and the verse on which it is based by context..history and Mohammads own life.

These above assertions would need to be specifially disproven before I'll admit we are 'mistaken'.

Can you find Muslims who will deny that Islam teaches or means these things ? Or course you can.. just like you can find 'Christian' scholars who don't believe in the resurrection.

But before any brave soul tries that.. my weapons are reputable Islamic scholars, not Western hate sites.
I await with baited breath....for the disputation of the 'issues' :)

but I have my industrial strength 'anti ad-hominem' chasity belt already buckled tight just in case.

Mr Boaz David,

Would you kindly go back to my post on this thread and re-read what I actually did say.

I do not appreciate your attributing your words to me.

Thank You.

Frankton, Banjo,

Yes I agree with your comments however instead of us looking there we need to look ‘here’ in Australia. We CAN work together. Only if we Act "Now"

The Boazie approach will lead us into trouble.

Pelican, for you-
Relations with Christians & Jews:
"O People of the Book (Christians and Jews)! Come to common terms as between us and you that we worship none but Allah, that we associate no partner with Him, that we raise not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah" (3:64).

David Boaz
Don’t you just take the cake. I am sorry little buddy but at this stage I would have to say Antonio’s words to you “David Do not are so blind” apply.

Antonio may have some scary ideas and a bit of a bad attitude but I think and I *hope it comes from misguided ideas wanting to ‘improve humanity in general’ ( Sorry about that Antonio)

Here you are still ignoring our invitation. Your rude and arrogant and David you ‘are’ spreading hatred.

I am not trying to come across as a smart arse. Its really ‘not smart ‘what I am doing actually, but as far as I know and (AFIC can correct me if I am wrong We are the ONLY Aussies in this country to have worked with Muslim Leaders ,held a MOU for five years
etc. People NEED to listen especially "you"

We know the people the issues well. Do you want to listen or learn David Boaz -'No'.

You know you remind me a bit of trying to work with the Animal Liberation People David And RSPCA Presidents comments= He said -= you can not work with these people- You can not sit down and talk to them because they think they walk on a higher moral ground.

The point is David at Least the Muslim Leaders sat down came to the table and talked. Ok we got off track but Theory Tried [sort of} in the first place.
Now point me please to a Christian Church that has done likewise ---

Hi Pale...

the vese you quoted 3:64 is the very basis of 9:30 and the cursing of Christians.. or don't you realize that? (partners with Allah, i.e. Jesus is Son of God)

As for the invite.. still don't know about it.

FOXY.. you are splitting straws.

you said:
<<common but mistaken belief in the West that Islam and Islamic fundamentalism are closely connected,>>

The only other words I directly attributed to you are 'you are prejudiced' (about me) ...the rest are the implications of suggesting we are 'mistaken' about Islam and its fundamentalism.

<<BD is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, and religions differing from his own.>>
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 22 February 2008 9:20:57 AM

In saying that, you avoided confronting the issue.. which has been my point pretty much all along.

So.. again here.. you are avoiding the issue.. by attacking 'me' suggesting I put words into your mouth.. when I didn't.

In reality I,
a) Quoted you (put in first person, not third "You are" rather than "BD is")
b) listed the implications of claiming people are 'mistaken'.

So...I'm wondering when those who call me all kinds of names..(can any of you point to me calling you snide names in any seriousness? )
will actually refute the evidence?

Most of the problem I think is world view. In contrast to some of you, I do actually see the connection between 'holy book' and 'behaviour'. This threatens the cherished sentimental beliefs you have about 'religions', on which your comfort zone is based.. so.. simply solution...'use name calling and accusation' aah..that'll solve it.

Foxy made specific and dangerous allegations about The West being mistaken...

Well..I'm not sure which part of 'The West' she means, but there is no monolithic 'West' that I know of. Perhaps she means "Those in western societies who believe" Islam and Islam-ism are connected are mistaken"?.

In which case she needs to look at how they are wrong, and on what grounds.

FrankGol

You obviously ignore or pretend that the many women raped in the Cronulla district in Sydney were and are fueled by the beliefs of muftis and their followers. The ones who have been caught and charged show no remorse because the victims are 'pieces of meat'. One Muslim I met married an Australian girl. She later found out he was an illegal immigrant and had wives elsewhere. After getting her money he was off. Perfectly acceptable with his belief system and not an isolated incident. Most muslims are moderate but not the ones that imitate Mohamed.

BOAZ_David is never going to admit his prejudices, and will continue to spit out his hatred of Islam and anyone else who disagrees with him.

Intelligent OLO readers can do one of two things:

(a) ignore his rants or
(b) challenge them consistently with evidence and better arguments and expose his campaign of fear and hatred.

The first option is easiest, but he and his dopey supporters are quite capable of interpreting silence as consent.

The second option is preferred because race and religious hatred that goes unchallenged is potentially dangerous, as many have learned at great cost.

His misrepresentation of Islam through highly selective allusions from Islamic texts is of course capable of being replicated with equally highly selective allusions from the Bible - and BOAZ knows it, and engages in that practice when it suits him.

His assertions that Islam approves of child abuse, domestic violence, sexual abuse of captive women, a perpetual state of war between Allah and non-Muslims is as much a total distortion as saying the Bible allows holy wars, inquisitory torture, the burning of 'witches', polygamy and incest.

We must continue to point out the recurrent examples of breathtaking hypocrisy that litter BOAZ's posts. Here again today: anyone who finds evidence that he's wrong about Islam (even Islamic scholars) get their information from 'Western hate sites', at the very time BOAZ is drawing on and contributing to such sites.

By contrast, BOAZ claims his 'weapons are reputable Islamic scholars', ignoring any Islamic scholar, no matter how reputable. Interesting choice of word, 'weapon'.

While he spits out venomous personal attacks, he accuses others of doing the very same to him despite wearing his "industrial strength 'anti ad-hominem' chasity belt" today - and he can't see the irony of his position.

And while excoriating Islam as if it's one monolith, BOAZ is quick to point out that "there is no monolithic 'West' that I know of".

Runner, It's heartening to see you have backed off your inclusion of Cronulla as among the sites of thousands of victims of Islamic suicide bombers. Wild assertions of that type don't help your case.

All rapes are to be deplored absolutely and every rapist must be brought to justice - not just those who are Muslim or claim perversely and erroneously that Islam allows rape. I would hope you would want Catholic priests who raped innocent children brought to trial as in the case of 'Father' Gerard Ridsdale who now languishes in gaol after multiple rapes on boys and girls.

We'd all prefer it if rapists who are tried and imprisoned show remorse. But we can't control that emotion. The issue is that they committed a deplorable crime and are being made to pay for it with the full force of the law.

Perverse members of the Islamic faith may encourage or condone rape. But talk to the hundreds of former inmates of institutions run by Catholics and the Starvation Army and you'll find that Islam has no monopoly in that area.

Nor is Islam the only religion from which come bigamists or polygamists. The point is that such practices are crimes in Australia whether the perpetrator is Hindu, Methodist or atheist.

Strip away your references to Islam - or substitute another religion - the central issue is that crimes against innocent people must be vigorously pursued by the justice system. That's a better way of dealing with crime than lots of hot air about religion.

What Frank said.

Mr Boaz David,

I asked you to re-read my post on this thread. The entire post.

I wrote - "The subject of Islamic fundamentalism attracted a great deal of attention in the West after the Iranian Revolution of 1978 - 79, which deposed Iran's ruler, Mohammad REza Shah Pahlavi (1919 - 80), and established an Islamic republic - and especially after the September 11th attacks on the United States in 2001 by al-Qaeda, an international Islamist terrorist network. The spectacular nature of
these events have lent plausibility to the common but mistaken belief in the West that Islam and Islamic fundamentalism are closely connected, if not identical. In fact, however, not all Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the literal and inerrant word of God, nor do all of them believe that Islam requires strict conformity to all the religious and moral precepts in the Qur'an. More important, unlike genuine Islamic fundamentalists, Most muslims are not idealogically committed to the idea of a state and society based of Islamic religious law.

The character of Islamist movements varies greatly throughout the world. Some Islamists resort to terrorism, and some do not..."

If you don't understand the point that I'm trying to make here - then
we really are not on the same intellectual plane.

And as for my accusing you of being "prejudiced, and intolerant et cetera..." I wonder how on earth I could even think such a thing - about such a fair-minded Christian like yourself?

What Foxy said.

What Frank and Foxy and Vanilla said :)

Mr Boaz David,

"But if you are willing to listen,
I say, love your enemies.
Do good to those who hate you.
Pray for the happiness of those
Who curse you.
Pray for those who hurt you."
Luke 6:27-28

"Since God chose you
To be the Holy people whom He loves,
You must clothe yourselves
With tenderhearted mercy, kindness,
Humility, gentleness, and patience."
Colossians 3:12

"Do not bring sorrow
To God's Holy Spirit
By the way you live."
Ephesians 4:30

"Your anger
Can never make things right
In God's sight."
James 1:20

I've chosen a few relevant Bible scriptures for this post in the hope of bringing a deeper insight into important lessons that you can learn
in your dealings with people of other beliefs.

What Frank, Foxy, Vanilla and CJMorgan said:)

Frankgol

Your reference to Catholic Priests and dare I say politicians, school teachers, atheist and scientist and white and blacks being rapist might be valid if their creeds condoned such activities. The point is that Mohamed himself showed little respect for women so why should his followers. Do you deliberately ignore this? Would a person following in the footsteps of Jesus marry a 9 year old girl. Did Jesus condone this sort of activity? Your dismissal of the atrocious way women are treated in Islamic countries and the attitudes that many in Cronulla and many other parts of the world is typical of those who lump all beliefs except your own in one basket.

runner

You totally missed the point. Are you thick, or so blinded by your prejudices that you can't think straight?

I don't want to engage with you any more - it's a waste of time and effort. I'll go talk to some intelligent open-minded people. You go talk to someone like BOAZ.

Vanilla,
The <<moderate>> turks you said in really was a conservative privileged bureaucracy who use the Islam threat to keep their privileges and continue oppressing the Turks. Very often the <<moderate >> turks used the military to violate the democracy and establish junta. Thousands of Unionists, politicians, writers or human right activists went in prison from the turks you call moderates. The current Prime minister went in prison because he read a religious poem. The truth is that the moderate Muslims not the seculars have changed the system, move the military out from politics and drive the country to European Union. Personally although I am atheist I support the moderate Islamic Turkish Government because I know they promote the democracy, human rights and they are the only one to reform the Islam. Until now we have had very encouraged results although they had big problems with the military.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

As predicted... most follow ups were ad hominems.. bless you all for proving my point :)

FOXY.. You are using the old standby 'ur a bad Christian' ploy rather than "You are wrong..and here is why" Point a), b) c) etc.

So...while I warm to all your biblical quotations, they alter nothing of the issue itself. I've seldom seen such denial as I see in you and frank. CJ just loves to 'watch' and throw in the odd snipe so I don't worry about him.

IMPORTANT: Foxy you gave me those wonderful quotes in order to assist me in (Your words) 'dealing with PEOPLE of other beliefs'. Now.. it would be more appropriate for you to say "other beliefs" because it is not 'people' I am discussing...it is "beliefs". Strange as it might seem..there is actually a difference.


FRANK....is partly on the right track..but he again did not actually argue THE POINT...he argued.. 'me'.

<<"His assertions (about Islam) is as much a total distortion as saying the Bible allows holy wars, inquisitory torture, the burning of 'witches', polygamy and incest.>>

WEAKNESS in Franks position. He did not try in the slightest to actually address even one of the points I made. All he did was say 'your totally distorting' not 'partially'..but 'totally'....

Lets take ONE issue. 'Child abuse'. Argue not with 'me'....argue with

Abu Al-Fida, 'Imad Ad-Din Isma'il bin 'Umar bin Kathir Al-Qurashi Al-Busrawi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Kathir

Ibn Kathir was renowned for his great memory regarding the sayings of Muhammad and the entire Qur'an. Ibn Kathir is known as a qadi, a master scholar of history, and a mufassir (Qur'an commentator). Ibn Kathir saw himself as a Shafi scholar.

Or.. argue with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Abul_Ala_Maududi

Because it is THEY who confirm what I say. I've given reference b4, but let me repeat. (Maududi)

http://www.tafheem.net/main.html
1/ Click onleft sidebar at 'At Talaaq' (surah 65)
2/ Scroll down to 65:4
3/ Scroll down to paragraph *13
4/ Read
Then come back and tell me 'you are distorting' and how.

Horus

You seems the only person to have picked up on the main issue for this this country.

I hope you return because we need someone with the intelligence that’s prepared to listen. Perhaps we could post to you for a while.

Bozzie Said Hi Pale...

The vese you quoted…

As for the invite... still don't know about it.

Pale replies

David to be honest I don’t believe you. If that’s true it shows utter arrogance because "four invitations" were extended. Which means you skip whole posts without even bothering to read them.

{Our email address- info@livexports.com}

You also said you didn’t receive emails on ‘two’ occasions sent to the private email address you gave me to send Pauline’s number.

Please do not patronize me. I know what I posted says and means.

If you really want to do Gods work I suggest you start to listen. That’s why he gave you ears.

I know that sounds rude even cheap but months of you ignoring us is beyond the pale.

Are you prepared to read our posts please and allow us to show how it works here or should I say doesn’t and why?

I understand your frustration but you’re making matters worse.

Its how it works in Australia we need to deal with.

I hear what you are saying to Foxy (Hi Foxy) and others but you’re not helping running around dragging world events here to Australia.

You must stop it and concentrate on here.

Show us your by listening and participating in “sensible exchange of dialog”

There are many comments that differ on this post and interesting nearly all are right in their own ways.

Foxy we need to have a counter plan in case all that love lets blown back in our faces.TBRO

Do not kid ourselves there will be no problems here which is why we need to have the right Muslim Leaders.

Be aware what going on in Australia while your all off so worried about the rest of the world.

Pale,
Vanilla started this thread by refering to a survey of muslims in 35 countries. As I see it the topic here is world wide. Some posters may have gone off topic but my post was on the topic.

I am quite happy to discuss the situation in Australia on its own and if you want to discuss that,I suggest you start a new thread.

Mr Boaz David,

How many times do all of us have to tell you "You are wrong and here is why?"

We've told you over and over again, in many threads and many posts, - that your continous statements (as TRTL has also pointed out) - that "Islam is evil," is wrong. You simply don't hear us.

I'm pleased that you took note of my biblical references. Beliefs and people go together. If you say one is "evil" the assumption is - so is the other.

However, I do not wish to continue to argue with you. As I've said in the past - it gets tedious and is pointless.

The only way that you will change my opinion of you is if you were to admit that most Muslims are moderate. Which is the theme of the current thread.

Banjo

-GY might not to allow that. Perhaps someone else might open one we will be happy to post on it.

Bozzie
Lesson One Christianity• =

When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bike.
Then I realised, the Lord doesn't work that way.

So I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me ... and I got it!

Lesson Over that’s, all you need to know. Just stick with the rules ;)

Lesson Two about Muslim Faith. =

Not all Arabs are Muslims (many are Christians) and not all Muslims are Arabs (most Muslims are non-Arabs).

Muslims always have religion uppermost in their minds and ""make no division between secular religion and business.""

""It is to the business dealings we must cast our eyes.""

(If nothing Else Mohamed must have been a savvy business man.)

The word Islam did not originally mean “submission btw as many think. It referred to strength which characterized a desert warrior who even when faced with impossible odds, would fight.

However Islam is about business and in ""this day and age that’s trade.""

*Whom Australia is doing business with via trade is our real *concern- or should be.

David please wait- "Do not" turn this into an argument about the meaning of Islam

Foxy We shouldn’t tell David what to think. We can give everybody facts.

I think your ideals we do not have a problem with some rising extreme groups of Muslims is ‘quite wrong’.

We most certainly do. Putting our head in the sand and praying for a bike isn’t going to fix it as I demonstrated to Boaz above.

It would be irresponsible.

Knowledge and common sense are required and please don’t do what David has done= Dismiss the only people on olo or outside olo who have actually worked with Muslim Leaders in Australia.

This is what frustrated us with 'him'.

It may surprise some of how much I am going to agree with "SOME" of Davids comments “ from time to time”...

What a total waste of time this is! Most Muslims are probably just following on with their relgion because their parents did - like most other people. So, a Muslim is not necessarily nasty or bad, personally.

However, Islam has always been, and will always be a most IMMODERATE and intolerant relgion, seeking to control not only the lives of its followers, but also the lives of infidels who are meant to convert to Islam or die.

Continuing discussions on Islam simple show the total ignorance of the fringe dwellers who haunt OLO, and who don't know their backsides from their elbows.

Mr. Right

Ar, At last someone to call it like it is . However there is no reason if we are sensible Australia can not be the exception and that is what we are trying to tell people.

However Bozzie is too busy highlighting the history of the world and dragging all of the problems along with him right back here to Australia.

I will share with you just part of a letter from one of our many lawyers who has been working with us and our MOU with Muslim Leaders of Australia. As I don’t know you I will post our link so you can see the work I am speaking of.btw we have worked with then almost six years. Quite long enough to give a ‘informed’ opinion

http://www.halakindmeats.com/

Here is ‘part’ of our lawyers letter.

No I did not request a meeting with the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs as we had no firm proposal to put to him due to the muslims doing their usual backflip. We also heard no more on Paradise Country.

Wendy, irrespective of what the Muslims may have signed you and I know they have not honoured the MOU nor have they really proceeded in the spirit of the document. To them the MOU really means nothing if you judge by their conduct to date. Even if they are in breach they know you will not sue them and if you do what is the loss? It is an only an MOU after all.

I believe it premature to see Rudd unless you have some mandate/agreement with the Muslims – and to date they just jerk us infidels around. Without a concrete proposal and the ability to say it has the full support of both HKM, Animal Rights, etc and they will just blow us off and say come back when you have something.

Mr Right

There ARE good Muslims who want to keep Australia a happy multi culture country. The thing is nobody understands that people are just people.

We must support those ones.

BOAZ: “…come back and tell me 'you (i.e. BOAZ) are distorting' and how.”

For starters, BOAZ, you look for those bits of ‘evidence’ that fit with your pre-judgement while turning away from any evidence that is incongruent.

You’re basically dishonest.

For every one of your selective ‘baddies’ from Islam I can find an equivalent ‘baddy’ from Christianity.

So, for example, for your 14th century ‘baddy’ Abu Al-Fida, 'Imad Ad-Din Isma'il bin 'Umar bin Kathir Al-Qurashi Al-Busrawi, I’ll give you the Spanish inquisition which used extreme torture against Jews, Moors, Protestants and recalcitrant Catholics. And all in the name of Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

Alternatively, it’s not hard to find Islamic scholars to challenge every one of your selected Islamic scholars. For example, for your ‘baddy’ Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi, even within the very Wikipedia article you cite, there is Abelwahab Meddeb: "Mawdudi constructed a coherent political system, which follows wholly from a manipulation" of the Arabic word 'hukm'. The Quran contains the phrase `Hukm is God's alone,` thus, Maududi argues that God must govern - - in the form of Sharia law. But Meddeb argues that a full reading of the ayah reveals that 'hukm' refers to God's superiority over pagan idols, not God’s role in government.

But you choose to ignore critics of Ala Maududi because it doesn't suit your pre-judged position.

There are plenty of scholars far more expert than BOAZ who challenge the sort of selective text trawling that BOAZ engages in. Text trawling – looking for quotes that suit your position and denying quotes that don’t suit – is common practice among fanatics.

As for decrying personal attacks on you, trawl through your own performances, BOAZ. Hypocrite

Mr Boaz David,

After reading what other posters have said on this thread - and re-reading both your and my postings I feel that it's time for us to
"bury the hatchet" so to speak. Preferably, not in each other's heads.

I apologise to you for any offense that I may have caused you. I am not trying to tell you what to think. (I was simply defending myself). However, be that as it may. Kindly accept my apology - and lets call it quits to this pointless arguing.

Let us debate like adults (if we feel so inclined) and not like petulant children. Let's move on and let the matter rest. I feel that enough has been said on the subject.

You have your way of viewing things. I have mine. Just because we don't agree does not make me right or you wrong (or vice versa). It only means - we view things from different angles. But according to the laws of civilized debate,
let us respect each other's right to differ in opinion.

I will cease to try to convince you to change your point of view. I would appreciate that you extend the same courtesy to me.

Cheers.

Islam is a complicated religion (but aren’t they all!). Its not all bad- I simply believe that it is misunderstood. And we fear what we do not know therefore the scaremongering that occurs reinforces this fear and ignorance.

The extremist Muslims taint the essence of what is kind and good about the non-extremists or perhaps alternatively termed the ‘moderate Muslims.’ So I ask myself -What exactly is a Moderate Muslim? What do they believe? I further ponder the question of why we even need a term such as a Moderate Muslim but that’s another story.

Anyway, in search for an answer I came across an article of which I’ve quoted a paragraph and for anyone interested have enclosed the URL link- it does make for interesting reading and in fact it is an interesting and educational web site as well.

“Moderate Muslims aspire for a society – a city of virtue -- that will treat all people with dignity and respect. There will be no room for political or normative intimidation. Individuals will aspire to live an ethical life because they recognize its desirability. Communities will compete in doing good and politics will seek to encourage good and forbid evil. They believe that the internalization of the message of Islam can bring about the social transformation necessary for the establishment of the virtuous city. The only arena in which Moderate Muslims permit excess is in idealism.” –Mugtedar Khan, Ph.D

http://www.islamfortoday.com/khan08.htm

I think it sounds like a good start.

"a city of virtue"

That's nice.

To Boaz _David,

I wish to respond to your interpretation of the abuses of women at the hands of the Qur’an as stated by you vis-a vis:

2/ It institutionalizes domestic violence against women. (4:34)
3/ It institutionalizes sexual abuse of captive women. (23:5-6)

I am simply advocating that a balanced and less rigid view be considered. I would like to refer you to an interpretation from a Muslim woman scholar who actually knows the Qur’an. You can find the whole transcript from:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/womeninqands.htm

I have quoted in part:

“The Qur'an admonishes those men who oppress or ill-treat women:
O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)

Considering the fact that before the advent of Islam the pagan Arabs used to bury their female children alive, make women dance naked in the vicinity of the Ka'ba during their annual fairs, and treat women as mere chattels and objects of sexual pleasure possessing no rights or position whatsoever, these teachings of the Noble Qur'an were revolutionary. Unlike other religions, which regarded women as being possessed of inherent sin and wickedness and men as being possessed of inherent virtue and nobility, Islam regards men and women as being of the same essence created from a single soul.”

Tammy Jo
Agreed, sounds good... I am unsure, if you know we have lost Foxy from OLO for now.
Let us learn from her teaching. From now on let us all honor Foxy contribution to OLO by trying to live up to her example.

TammyJ0, There are thirty two Islamic Councils in Australia. AFIC, recognized leaders by Australian Government. However not all Islamic councils recognize AFIC.

.btw, not trying to patronize you, just posting basics

We all must try harder to provide the guidance and honesty friendship to Muslim Leaders at expecting same returned. That is something the Federal Government has ‘failed’ to do to all our detriment.
.

Upon our first experiences meeting Muslim representatives from overseas there was ‘one question’ mostly all asked.

The question was – could you please just tell us the truth. Could you please just tell us the truth? --- We hear so many different stories, so many lies, different all the time, what please is the truth. (That aside for now Tammyjo)
.
Next thing we would like to point out is this >

How do we “expect” the Muslim Leaders or the Muslim people to understand our laws if they keep getting mixed messages from the government...
Isn’t it a fair thing to say if we give the Muslim Leaders mixed messages then how are they going to teach and teach the Muslim People?

The Australian Government have long allowed Islamic Slaughtering of Animals against RSPCA and Animal Welfares protests although the public don’t get the hear about it.

That gives mixed messages “that they don’t ‘really’ have to follow Aussie ways.”!

It’s unfair of the Government to put both groups of people in this position

.btw Tammy I am talking about Animal welfare laws and slaughtering laws but you can follow through and apply that to ‘everything’ especially when you fully understand the word Halal = ( Lawful to Muslims).
If you look here-

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Plan-to-push-for-halal-standard-rejected/2007/10/08/1191695801343.html
Then consider they are actually ‘doing it in Islamic methods right now’ you could be excused for asking – what is going on.?

To Be Contiuned

Continued

TammyJo, I don’t think we should dismiss what`s happening here in Australia.

Before moving on, I must explain are ‘many Islamic Councils’ or groups even within Australia and the world.
It is not uncommon for Muslims to argue from Mosque to Mosque in regards to laws or Halal.
If we are going to have a sensible debate about Islamic Law in Australia and Muslims we can only do it looking at what is happening here.

. And what we ‘personally’ know because it’s so completely different to something posted on the net from overseas... This is The Australian Muslim leader’s web site that many Muslim people view. =

http://www.afic.com.au/

What we ‘can ‘do a little later is to explore the links and trade deals from Australia to other Islamic Groups world wide.

At least that way it gives everybody a clearer understanding.

I am not posting this as a light hobby it is my life’s last five years darn hard work along with a dozen others. We are both informed and sincere.

Here is what the X President of AFIC had to say about Muslims and Halal Requirements in his time as President of AFIC – (scroll down)

http://www.livexports.com/afic.html

Dr Ali. Has also written in the Muslim News of concerns about AFIC leadership and the lack of response to denounce terrorism and some other issues- see media releases in Dr Ali`s time as AFIC President-

http://www.afic.com.au/Rape%20a%20henius%20crime.htm
http://www.afic.com.au/Amn%20Press%20Release%208th%20July%202005.htm
http://www.afic.com.au/CondemnBenbrika.htm
We can have a fantastic future working united together but only if future but only if we have people willing and wanting to do so.
There is nothing wrong with anybody bar their intentions. If peoples intentions are good then good things come from it.

People are people Christians Muslims and so forth. Personally we have some wonderful Muslim friends. Saddam Hussein's right hand man was actually a Christian so there is evidence that Muslims and Christians can work well together for a united cause. Mind you in hindsight perhaps one might have given a better example :)

Continued

FrankGol,

Don’t think Bozzie`s returning..

There is a big difference questioning leaders and rubbishing 'all' people of Muslim faith.

This hoo, har that you can’t talk about Muslim has got to stop for the sake of Australia and all people.

I see people heading for the hills left right and center btw.

Just like other Leaders Muslim leaders ‘too’ must be open and that also includes trade.

It includes the same scrutiny that goes with a democracy.

Instead some claim racism if you expect just normal behavior that is part of our democracy and Aussie ways.

There is an attitude by ; some Muslim Leaders and People that Islam business is none of Aussies business.

This is because I explained earlier Muslims do not separate business dealings or anything else from religion.

So in their eyes it’s insulting. Now here’s where I blame the Government. Both sides of Government have let Muslim migrants originally and the Australian public.

This is unacceptable and the Governments of Australia now are responsible for what is going to be a very big problem one day.

Particularly considering the Halal Accreditations which world wide run into the trillions world wide.

The Government has mishandled this for years. Sure there are many religions in Australia and world wide but no other like Islam who don’t separate laws from religion but treat it as one.

Here is your problem and it will only get worse with Islam faith and again the Government must address it with Muslim Leaders.

If The Government does not give clear messages to Muslim Leaders how can Muslim Leaders give clear directions and guidance to their flock.

In the next few posts I will demonstrate what can only be called an irresponsible list of what the Australian government has allowed for years.

This will demonstrate to you why Muslim Leaders are confused to say the least.

Of course most Muslims are moderate, so are most human beings.

We have to be taught how to hate.

This is why ALL religions need to become more accountable. For extreme religion to exist we first need religion.

I would like to see more moderates from all religious persuasions speak out strongly against those who use religion for pernicious reasons.

Foxy certainly made a good start against the more vexatious christians here. And doubtless Muslims can and do do the same.

But the world needs more responsibility from religions. Teaching that yours is the one true faith only fuels extremist behaviour for those so inclined.

Teach love, respect, empathy and courtesy. Accept that not everyone agrees with you. I don't care if you believe in the flying spaghetti monster, just don't come to my front door and try to convince me.

And don't claim I am without ethics or moral fortitude because I don't believe in god.

In short, stop creating divisions and reach out and accept the wonderful diversity of our nation, our world, our universe.

Fractelle: "I don't care if you believe in the flying spaghetti monster, just don't come to my front door and try to convince me."

The other day I was disturbed on my day off by a knock on the door. Dressed only in my irridescent green Thai silk dressing gown, I opened the door a fraction to be confronted with the sight of a clean-cut man in a hat, holding a copy of 'The Watchtower'.

Remembering something somebody here at OLO had posted some time ago, I got in first and said "Sorry, this is a gay household". The look on the guy's face was priceless, before he mumbled something and hurriedly beat a hasty retreat.

I recommend it, but it's hard to keep a 'straight' face :D

Tammy Jo....thanx for the serious attempt at constructive dialogue :)

You did address a specific issue. "Domestic violence against women"
You supplied an alternative view.. (noticably from a women).. and I've read such alternative views many times.

The problem comes in that 'progressive, western educated female muslims' tend to share that kind of alternative view, whereas Males in Islamic countries do not. If you look on youtube, you'll find countless examples of Sheikhs and Imams outlining just how you can and cannot beat your wife in fulfillment of the Quran. So, in reality it should come down to the Sharia teaching, which includes a concensus of the Scholars, rather than the opinion piece of some woman who prefers a more enlightened view of Islam.

Tammy.. you didn't address the issue of sexual abuse of female captives. I know the usual polimics/apologetics, 'Islam did away with Slavery over time' :) but that's just a scam. They still practice slavey now, and had even white slaves which caused the Barbary wars with the USA in 1801.

FRANK. you do love the adhominem don't you "You are dishonest/Hypocrite"
My response? I'll just stick to the issue.

Maududi's critic in that instance was over his political system, not his understanding of the Quran in 65:4 You might wish to compare the political 'system' of Maududi with that of Mohammad..and then make your own judgement about your 'scholar' who criticizes Maududi.

What you failed to establish, (by creating a straw man) is that the scholar you cite, disagrees with Maududi on the POINT I raised. (65:4)
That is what you need to do, to prove me wrong. (till then,my point remains unchallenged by serious debate.)

Pale,
Is the slaughter of animals governed by the Feds or the States?

If our Governments have not insisted that Islamic slaughter of animals follow our rules, it is discrimination to favour a minority.
The same as our Governments have not prosecuted anyone for carrying out FGM. There is ample evidence to prosecute the parents for child abuse and it is against the law in all states.

I hope A Syneonakis reads about this discrimination that favours ethnic groups

CJ

Thanks for the advice, however pretending to be a gay female isn't nearly as scary for the evangelist as a gay male.

Why do you think would be?

I've also tried pretending to be a satanist - they (the evangelists) go to some special school to train in "not listening" and repeating themselves like broken records.

Maybe I should say I am a Muslim - now that would be scary...

;-)

Cheers

Fractelle, Hello everyone Tammyjo Bozzie

Fractrelle
You’re “absolutely right”. I would however just like to add that it’s not your average Aussie family creating Diversity. It’s the Government as our leaders.

It is the irresponsible Governments that fail to teach the Muslim Leaders that we are all one in Australia.
As I have explained there is no difference between law and religion. Islam is unique in that way. So of course without clear leadership how are these people expected to assimilate.
After all they are only doing what they have always done. The problem with that Fractelle is the Government then must make ‘special allowances’ to enable to Muslims to operate because they are hugely involved in food and trade and slaughter and exporting and funding exporting and much more.

How are they going to learn to be one of us if they are getting messages from the Government they don’t have to comply with the rest of us?

If they as leaders get mixed messages from the Government how on earth are these same leaders going to teach their flock to assimilate.
When we are not happy with our Prime Minister or any other leader we speak out. That is a democracy. When someone speaks out about Muslim Leaders or people you all cry racism. Well that racism revered. I do not have a problem with Muslims but I question the integrity and attitude of ‘some’ of the Muslims for very good reason.

They are no different to the rest of us and they must not be treated that way

Bozzie. I am pleased you came back to this thread. As I said to others you can not discuss Muslim people by going world wide and coming back here because here is NOTHING like Islamic Councils overseas.

We have some great Muslim people world wide but a scolla from wherever has no effect on Councils here. Even between for example Melbourne and Sydney Islamic Councils is a huge difference in teachings.
I would like to discuss Australia sensibly with you if that is ok.?

To be contiuned

Pale,
You said. "It is the irresponsible Governments that fail to teach Muslim Leaders that we are all one in Australia"

True. And you could add. Not only muslim leaders, but all incoming migrants. Also that our laws take precedence over any cultural or religious practices.

One of the main reasons I am so against Multiculturalism, as practiced here, Is that it wrongly gives the impression that migrants can carry on exactly as they did in their country of origin. No wonder that some get offended when they see scantily clad people at beaches, females in revealing clothes in public, young females without chaperones, nativity scenes at Malls at Xmas or they find they cannot lawfully eat dog meat, dolphin or other foods they used to be able to. Nobody told them untill they arrived.

I think that many migrants, because of MC, have been given misleading information or impressions about what they could do here. That is why some cultural practices, like FGM, are still carried on here.

Did you know that it is only in the later part of last year that moves were made to supply PROSPECTIVE migrants with information about our society, community and culture. I hope they are now getting that info, because previously they had to rely on word of mouth or their own resources to find out about us. Their friends and relos here want them to come, so they are not going to tell them about things that they may not like. Our governments did give them some info but only AFTER their visa had been approved. Which is far too late as they have made their decission to come.

When they ask friends about FGM, for example, they are told 'Don't worry, we just do it and the Government doesn't care'

Banjo: "they find they cannot lawfully eat dog meat, dolphin or other foods they used to be able to"

Truly bizarre. Examples and evidence please?

"When they ask friends about FGM, for example, they are told 'Don't worry, we just do it and the Government doesn't care'"

Again - evidence please.

PALE&IF: Please do yourself a favour and run a spellchecker through your posts. "Scolla" indeed. Also, you may have dealings with some Muslims, but your understanding of Islam is superficial at best. Even Boazy's more knowledgeable than you on matters of Islamic doctrine, albeit in a somewhat more malevolent way.

BOAZ: "... you do love the adhominem don't you 'You are dishonest/Hypocrite'
My response? I'll just stick to the issue."

After analyzing your posts and looking for evidence to support you assertions and finding none; but instead finding
(a) false statements and
(b) highly selective and non-authoritative sources and
(c) you practising what you tell others not to do,
what am I supposed to call you? I can't reply to the substance of your posts because they are vacuous and inane, full of fear and hate, but empty of substance - and anything but just 'sticking to the issue'.

You are on an abysmal par with Banjo whose latest rant against multiculturalism claims that Australia "wrongly gives the impression that migrants can carry on exactly as they did in their country of origin". No evidence, no substance. Ignores the host of evidence to the contrary. A BOAZ-like post.

FrankGol,

You made some good points earlier as well.

Banjo,
Such a relief to read a comment thats getting closer to the mark.

Your right of course but we can’t blame the people coming here.

How can we blame these poor people?

By large I think they have really tried and done a good job of settling in without any lectures or workshops to help with practical problems.

Umm I don’t see Greeks, and the likes, needing the same, work shops as the Muslim faith people because they have experience of dealing with seperate laws of religion and laws as two separate issues.

Can you just imagine how different confusing and scary it would be to be in a different country not fully understanding our complicated legal system.

Being brought up the whole of your life to see anybody challenging the Islam laws as sinful.

Being terrified of not following the Mosque and the Islamic School teacher.

Then after all that suddenly being told you had to defy the only laws you had ever known and being scared of upsetting Allah.

Apart from that just imagine the huge insult they would feel at having their laws, religion challenged suddenly.

Banjo the Dads lock up their sons and forbid them to go out on the town clubbing and taking drugs and chasing the girls terrified of what they will become.

Same of course with the daughters but often that’s not such a challenge as the daughters tend not to go out as much nights alone anyway.

You have got a lot of angry confused young men who feel they don’t fit in and nobody is doing anything about it in the Government.

Would it be wiser if the Government lectured these parents first?

You know sort of said Look let the boy go out to a few clubs and blab la and give the reasons why.

The Government care more about their trade deals than the public so of course they make special exceptions for Halal and other trade deals that they shouldn’t.

It totally misleads the Muslim Leaders as well.

Well, that's it for me on this thread - as soon as PALE starts swamping the pages with her personal crusade, I'm out of here.
(Where is the moderator on this forum?)

BTW I AM against cruelty to animals especially the ones we exploit for food,

BUT

This is about the fact that the majority of Muslims ARE moderate and unfortunately, many "average Aussies" are completely unaware of this truth.

The crux of the matter is what causes religious extremists?, given the majority of religious people are moderate.

Pale,
I disagree with some of what you said.

Firstly, I think it is far better to give prospective migrants information about our society BEFORE they make a commitment to come here, than to give them lectures when they arrive.

If some change their mind and don't come because of that information, so be it. We have a responsibility to be open and honest with them.

Secondly, All prospective migrants should get the same information, in their national language. Muslims should not be treated any different to others. Thee ae many other cultures that are very different to ours.

Thirdly, I understand that muslims keep a very tight reign on their daughters, but allow their sons to almost do as they please. The main problem we have in Aus is with Lebanese muslims and their social conduct, especially how they treat and address females. Lebanese are the biggest muslim group numericlly, but we actually seem to have only occasional problems with other muslims.

If 93% of muslims class themselves as moderate, it means that 7% hold extreme views. That equates to more than 21000 extremists are in Aus. I think that figure is rather high, so maybe the survey does not relate to Aus.

Fractelle

Pale receives the same amount of posts as others. Your swamping theory is rubbish. According to your record you joined olo for the first time only on the 2...2. 2008.

Do not be so quick to judge us without knowing all the facts. In particular Muslim faith people who basically get a raw deal because of the lack of guidance from the Government.
Like a good parent so must the Australian Government rule with a firm but caring hand.

One would hope, you would do a lot more research, before attacking our organization and btw we have many Muslim Members doing a fantastic job.

Animal libbers attacking us is getting a tad of a bore.

Most Aussies are not aware of the truth and Banjo is correct they need work shops 'before' coming.

I know you preach religion has served its time and that’s your right.

However religion is very important to the Muslim People.

We need to find ways to express to them we support them one hundred percent on their right to practice their religion.

That is so long as they are not demanding Australia change laws or make exceptions because of their religion.( Which is what is happening now) I blame the Government full stop.

If your too arrogant to listen to the only people that know the leaders outside Governments or the Mosques that’s your problem and goodbye.

The Australian Government sends out mixed messages to the Muslim leaders who in return lead the Muslim faith people.

We can not blame Muslim people under those circumstances if there are misunderstandings. It simply isn’t their fault.

In the next few posts I intend to show examples of the Australian Government contempt for us and the deceitful way in which they conduct business away from the public’s eye.
No wonder many Muslim people don’t know if they are Arther or Marther and no wonder why there are problems that trust me will only get worse.

Do not blame Muslim Leaders or people blame the Australian Government for being two faced and giving out mixed messages.

PALE: You state "However religion is very important to the Muslim People" You make this sound as if Muslim's are a nationality or ethnic race. Islam is the religion, Muslim's are those followers of Islam. So of course religion is is important to Muslims- without it they would not be Muslim.

You state "We need to find ways to express to them we support them one hundred percent on their right to practice their religion." Who is stopping them? Muslims are free to pursue their religion in Australia.

"That is so long as they are not demanding Australia change laws or make exceptions because of their religion.( Which is what is happening now) I blame the Government full stop" What the? That makes no sense what so ever.

You state "In particular Muslim faith people who basically get a raw deal because of the lack of guidance from the Government. Like a good parent so must the Australian Government rule with a firm but caring hand." I don't think so PALE. The Government is not responsible for acting like a good parent for anyone. My goodness, where do you get these things from? State and Religion- not to be in each others pocket- neither one should legislate for the other.

Tammy

I`m sure being a single parent would make you more of an expert on raising children than I.

Its amazing how the veggies trolling us disappeared new people are instead interrupting sensible discussions.


Unlike you we have had a team of qualified informed people along with lawyer’s whom have been working on the accreditation problems for six years.

It is complicated and you would need some background on Halal accreditation requirements and world trade as part of your background to fully understand the part the Government play in that.

I am posting on OLO in lay terms to inform the public of what problems within this country regarding this area so they understand fully what is going on in Australia.

All Governments world wide are the Father of all their people or should be. Clear messages are vital.

Fyi There is several Islamic Councils within Australia and many more worlds wide. It is important that our country and the people living in it are not dealing with people who hold extreme views whatever their faith.

The part you said makes no sense simply means that the Australian Government is changing laws especially for the more extreme Muslim to comply with their demands.

What I said very clearly was the Government is responsible to advise the Muslim Leaders or any other migrant leaders properly and not give mixed messages to both leaders and the Australian public.

If this is not done than the leaders are they Muslim or anybody else can not give clear guidance to their followers.

Trade is very much an issue with Muslim Leaders and none more than the supply of Halal Products.

If we bend to the demands of extreme people then we always have problems.
I think Dr Ali the X president of AFIC Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, best explained it by appealing to the government and media to be reasons bile when making comments on Halal food trade.

Best you go back and read some of his comments I or seek employment to occupy your time throughout your day.

PALE:

First of all- the fact I am a single parent has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Do you hear me? Nothing at all. Zippo. Nada. Zilch.

Secondly- It certainly sounds to me like you are drawing a parallel and ignorant stereotype of me being a single parent and not being employed. You know nothing about me and don't you dare presume that you do.

I am going to stop here before I really say something I'll regret. In the meantime- talk to the hand.

Y'know PALEIF, we have both got on and got off.

Are we off again? You may not like the response from TammyJo, but what was the 'single-parent'/'get a job' thing all about?

Those comments are really below the belt, and frankly if you are female/s or have female/s there it is a particularly tacky and bitchy thing to do to another female.

You ARE prolific poster/s, and hold your own most of the time, whether I agree with you or not.

Why did you have to resort to that kind of thing? It's low.

Ginx
You’re correct. I just read it myself. I was angry with Tammy’s continual interruptions and nasty comments aimed at us. So I retaliated with the first thing that came into my head.

Tammy

Of course I don’t think all single Mums are ill informed lazy etc. I apologize if I upset any single mums where those comments do not apply- sincerely.

I also apologize to Foxy if she’s reading this because she asked everybody to be nice to one another.






Please allow us to tell the public what arrangements the Government makes with Muslim dealers of Halal products behind the publics back and then I suppose our jobs done.

For those of you who think oh, there go those animal welfare nutters again I absolutely assure you this goes beyond just animal welfare.

It goes to the root of our society. Do you know the Government has zero regard for the Australian people? Basically they see themselves as people on a higher level than us that they must suck up to before elections.
Why is the government allowing special conditions that are against RSPCA recommendations for Muslims to kill animals without pre stunning?

Why are we not in charge of whom we do trade with?

You wouldn’t have to be too bright to figure out if many Muslims accept pre stunning being moderate and civilized then the other orders are going to the more extreme people would you.

We just witnessed the biggest enquiry held in Australia being AWB but we didn’t year one word from anybody including Kevin Rudd that they were also exporting live animals.

Ask yourself why. AWB are still exporting live animals but us anybody bothered to check if the delivery arrangements have changed.
Of course not!

The Government are supporting behind the publics back one rule for us and one rule for others.

How on earth are we ever going to mix and understand each other with mixed messages coming from our Government.


Lies and more lies from the Government

What else is new- nothing what so ever has changed.

PALE,
Was pleased to see your apology to Tammy Jo. Your commets were unneccesary and totally out of order. Untill your apology I had decided not to further engage wuth you. This incident did however, remind me to be very carefull not to disclose any personal information on OLO.

I have interupted you also and I am frustrated in that you have on several occasions said the Government is sending mixed messages to muslims but you have not said what they are. The only one mentioned so far is about Islamic slaughter. Even now you went off on a tangent about AWB.

Would you please get on with it and tell us what you are talking about.

I read that as an avoidance of an apology to Tammy Jo, actually - but what's new about PALE&IF being gratuitously rude to people who question their convoluted ideas and often dubious claims?

Speaking of unnecessary comments, Banjo -

Banjo: "they find they cannot lawfully eat dog meat, dolphin or other foods they used to be able to"

Truly bizarre. Examples and evidence please?

"When they ask friends about FGM, for example, they are told 'Don't worry, we just do it and the Government doesn't care'"

Was this just a typically xenophobic rant, or do you actually have examples? Who exactly has said what you claim they have said?

Ginx, Banjo and CJMorgan,

Thank you for your comments regarding the misguided post PALE directed at me.

PALE: You did avoid giving me an apology. I'm waiting.

CJ and Fractelle:

I'm most amused by your tactics at repelling evangelists. My only experience in the matter was some years ago and was quite easy - when I opened the door I was expecting someone else. I was unshaven, and was clad only in boxer shorts with bed hair and bleary eyes.

In that circumstance, all you need is a cockeyed look and maybe a grunt. It's really quite effective and technically it isn't impolite.

At least, no more impolite than knocking on someone's door at eight on a Saturday morning, thus sabotaging a rare opportunity to sleep in.

I'd like to know if anyone's tried the line 'God wants me to be an atheist.'

I'll join the club on this one TRTL.

Folks have to pass a window to get to my front door, and that's when I saw the black suit/tie, crisp white shirt and clipboard.

I put that head massager gizmo with the metal 'finger' thingy's on my head and answered the door. I swivelled my eyeballs as best as I could and told the fellow that I was in the middle of a home based electro-convulsive therapy session!

Boy! do they lead narrow lives, he clearly didn't recognize the thing. The look on his face was a prize winner! He stepped backwards and fell off the porch; he would have injured himself if the vines hadn't caught him. He kind of hung there.

I gave him my most vacant look and closed the door, considerably relieved that the vines had saved me from an injuries claim! (I heard a scuffling sound, and then he raced past the window and ran out of the gate!)

All absolutely true!

(Yes I know this has nothing to do with the thread title, but we HAVE to laugh or we'll go mad!).

Banjo
Thank you for mentioning the threads topic.
Yes the comments were unnecessary and off post and had nothing to do with the topic your correct. I addmit to loosing my cool at the continual interruptions and abuse. (No excuse I know as Ginx and yourself pointed out)

Tammy - your turn to apologize for your continual abuse. Perhaps open a thread to discuss unmarried Mums. I would would contribute:

Moving on -

Must say the last few comments were amusing. Ginx is correct we do have to laugh.

Back on topic-
Banjo I will sit down and wording a post explaining as ‘clearly’ and precisely as I can what I mean by the Government playing the double edge of the sword while (trying not to invite legal complications.} I will post them ignoring interruptions.

It will probably take about six full posts to fully explain.
The difficulty I have in explaining what is happening is that few have the background knowledge or understand the industry enough to follow what is happening which is why I have ‘tried’ to post basic guidelines on Halal in general.
“I want you to be able to understand me completely.

That is why I have been ‘trying’ to give some background as to the different Muslim Leaders and what they have said in the past.- What the Australian Government have told the public compared to what is really going on.

Its got to be hard for Muslim leaders to sometimes be expected to respect us and follow our laws to a T when they know very well that’s its really quite different when dealing in with Government in business and trade.

The Government are making jack arses out of us by quietly quietly approving ritual slaughter methods under their so called special programs that have formally and publicly been rejected.
AWB is a small part but it paints a ‘clear picture’ and considering the enquiry Banjo you must ask yourself what has changed?

Why has the Government A. covered it up B. Not changed it – No enquiry into this part of it=

http://www.livexports.com/cowgun.html

TRTL, Ginx, CJ & Banjo

I had really finished with this thread, but clever hints on deterring god-botherers is just so hilarious. Much ROFL. Why oh why do they pick my precious Saturday mornings to evangelise me? Don't they know Saturday mornings are holy to secular people?

Thank you for the ideas.

I haven't tried this but have wanted to,

Ask them to wait, fetch pen & paper and very sincerely ask them for their address (seeing as they know yours). If they ask why, simply look mysterious and very knowing...

PALE - I have been around a lot longer than you realise...(imagine sinister laughter heheheheheh).

Cheers m'dears

PALE: In your own words you state: “The Government are making jack arses out of us…...”

It would appear you don’t need the government’s help , you are doing a pretty good job of it yourself.

Let the moderate Muslims of Australia speak for themselves PALE- you are not advancing their position with the incoherent blubberings you are trying to pass off as some kind of intellectual discussion.

“The Government is making jack arses out of us…...”
Meaning= they are making jack arses out of the average Australian public= Not the Moderate Muslims.
I am not speaking about the moderate Muslims for goodness sake!
You have absolutely no idea do you.

Granted you would have to have a basic idea of trade to comment which you clearly don’t have.

You would also have to have a slight understanding of the roles of both Federal and State Governments in trade and the difference between both.

You would also have to have a basic idea of Islam and Muslims which again you clearly don’t have.
I can’t see the point in trying to converse with people like yourself or prior poster.

The only poster that has shown a hint of a curious mind here that might have understood our information would have to be Bango.

The only thing I have gained from this thread personally is total understanding why everybody calls Bozie all sorts of things.

We have always sort of stood up for him thinking other posters were a bit hard.

Not so now- He has displayed the same arrogant reluctance to listen and really learn about the difference between Islamic Council in Australia.

Not ALL leaders are trading with extreme Islamic council’s world wide but many are. Do have even the SLIGHTEST IDEA how that could effect this country.

BTW This is with ‘Government assistance’ and you are paying for it from your taxes. Your tax money that should be going to improve your children’s and grandchildren’s life is going into extreme Islamic organizations.

Let me tell all of you who think you know so much about Muslims in Australia.
You know nothing about the leaders and it’s clear you don’t wish to.
No wonder why the Government has no problem just doing their thing and telling people something else.

They worked out most of you are too self centered and loud mouthed to want to learn or hear anything other than your own ill-informed selves.
At least they got something right!

PALE,
I read the page you gave the link to in your last post and I have to say it is all just spin. Incorrect, exaggerated, emotive garbage. You use words like blood money, cover up, scandal, secret, anxious to keep it quiet.

There was none of that, it was a straight forward normal business deal by AWB. Happens all the time. AWB possibly has interests or shares in other companies as well.

The evidence you supposedly 'uncovered' was a press release issued by Wesfarmers, announcing the sale of their Landmark business to AWB. No doubt that press release would have gone to all major and rural media, plus business publications and the Stock Exchange. Its a fair bet that by next morning the whole business and rural circles would have been aware of the aquisition by AWB.

So there was no cover up, Government or otherwise. Landmark may well be involved in livestock exports but I know they are in rural services, merchandise, insurance, seed, fertilizer, finance, real estate, wool and livestock sales, all aimed to the rural sector. I have done business with them. Blood money indeed!

I still do not see any connection to muslims getting mixed messages from the government.

So I guess it was just another typically xenophobic rant, eh Banjo?

FRACTELLE....you said:

"The crux of the matter is what causes religious extremists?, given the majority of religious people are moderate."

Most interesting question. But I think another one needs to be raised along side it:

"What kind of 'extremist' is connected with certain faiths"

It becomes bit subjective, but on the 'Christian' side of things, Pastor Fred Phelps (godhatesfags.com) would have to be the Number 1 'extremist' loony that most of the world knows about.

Then, there are those who have attacked Abortion clinics, and their staff, but I know so little about each case, it is just toooo easy to slap a 'Christian' label on them.

Then there are the Muslim extremists, the Hindu extremists, and aside from that, we are pretty much left with the radical Marxists.

Extremism does not neccessarily mean violence.

I think 'Extremism' comes out of a fear that 'they' will come and get us. How big the 'they' factor is depends on a lot.

There are instances where this fear is well grounded, rational and demonstrable. Others where it is not.

"The Americans are coming and they are going to force us all to become southern Baptists" is hardly well grounded or rational.

"The Wahabi's are investing heavily in Islamic infrastructure, education and mosques, in Western countries and are seeking to alter the cultural balance in favor of Islam" is well grounded, demonstrable and irrefutable.

"Extremist"... is he/she simply 'passionate' about their faith?
or.. are they running on spiritual 'ice' causing them to overstep the boundaries of acceptable behavior in their own faith?

My view of an 'extremist' would be one who comes to your door, berates you for not being 'them' and when you shut the door they jam their shoe in it so you can't.

WHAT MAKES AN EXTREMIST.. (Fractelle) that would be a good thread in itself.

I tried to answer that in my last post but didn't.

Wikipedia is helpful..and here is a list of characteristics of an'extremist'.

1. A tendency to Character assassination
2. Name calling and labeling
3. The making of irresponsible, sweeping generalizations
4. The failure to give adequate proof of assertions made
5. Advocacy of double standards
6. A tendency to view opponents and critics as essentially evil
7. A Manichean (bipolar) world view
8. Advocating some degree of censorship and/or repression of their opponents and critics
9. Identifing themself by reference to who their enemies are
10. A tendency to substitute intimidation for argument
11. Widely use slogans, buzzwords and "thought-terminating clichés"
12. Claim some kind of moral or other superiority over others
13. Doomsday thinking
14. A tendency to believe that it is justified to do bad things in the service of a supposedly "good" cause
15. An emphasis on emotional response, as opposed to reasoning and logical analysis
16. Hypersensitivity and "vigilance"
17. "May claim" some kind of supernatural, mystical or divinely-inspired rationale for their beliefs and actions
18. An inability to tolerate ambiguity and uncertainty
19. "Groupthink"
20. The personalization of hostility
21. A tendency to assume that the system is defective if one is defeated

Looks like some of our olo buddies are 'extremists' :) "Bozo/hypocrite/Prejudiced"

Another factor might be seeking a sense of self importance/relevance.

Banjo

You a hundred percent incorrect. We raised it with the standards boars and Wes farmers Downers and Vailes regarding their” failure to disclose their interests in the live animal trade in 2003!”
I have the original correspondence between Wes farmers and us
From there it was dumped within three weeks back to AWB and Landmark!
You are more than welcome to contact Wes farmers if they will talk to you.
I am sure the others won’t. If you don’t know about the money that went to SH by now you’re another planet- Fact is it wasn’t just wheat and the ROAD TRANSPORT!! Costs came under the same umbrella for the live animal trade as the wheat.
Anyway I am not here to waist my time with people who know nothing but are know all.
From past correspondence that seems to have always been not only your problem but many on here. (Not All) I don’t say things unless we are sure. We couldn’t afford to. Especially considering some of the subjects raised

Banjo said
I still do not see any connection to Muslims getting mixed messages from the government.
Pale
No I know you don’t because I haven’t posted it yet. With know it alls, who know nothings like you, I am not sure I can be bothered!
I have already discussed the connections with a popular media outlet. They want to do a doc so maybe you can just dam well wait until then!

Boaz said
"The Wahabi's are investing heavily in Islamic infrastructure, Pale comments=
Do you own research Banjo if anybody has witnessed the change in AFIC connections its us1 and we have the balls to speak up
Wahabi's
http://muslimvillage.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t14222.html
http://www.afic.com.au/
Bozie was that comment directed at if so says so.

You know we worked closely with afic but things have changed.

We 'were' prepared to share concern would be one way of putting it.
At considerable risk and cost I might add!
Find out yourselves the hard way to hell with your stupidity!

Goodbye!

Boaz

You tell a big fib - you didn't reference Wiki for what makes an extremist, you finally took a long hard look at yourself in a very big mirror.

You do everything single one of those points on your list.

Perhaps you could add 'inability for self-reflection'

ROFL

I can't remember when I enjoyed a post so much - and that it came from the poison 'pen' of Boaz is nothing but perfect schadenfreud.

Thank you for making my day.

Indeed, Fractelle. You're certainly not alone in recognising our Boazy in his own list of 'extremist' characteristics. That he appears unaware of it is probably another characteristic that could indeed be added to the list.

Boazy: "My view of an 'extremist' would be one who comes to your door, berates you for not being 'them' and when you shut the door they jam their shoe in it so you can't."

Boazy, I think most people would regard as 'extremist' anybody who came to their door and "berated" them about religion full stop. The trouble with religious extremists like you is that you think that it's quite acceptable to "berate" people about issues with which you are obsessed.

I think Boazy is a good example of someone "running on spiritual 'ice' causing them to overstep the boundaries of acceptable behavior in their own faith". What do others think?

C J Mortgan,
OK. Although you don't deserve it, I will relent and reply to you just this once. Some time back I came to the conclusion that you and Ginx were idiots who were doing a poor job of trying to be smart arses. So I decided not to respond. But I suppose I should give you a mark or two for being persistant.

If you want to know if dog meat and dolphin are consumed by humans in some countries and if each is legally available here , you can research that yourself. Try horse meat also, it is consumed by humans in some countries but I haven't yet noticed it, or dog meat and dolphin at Colesworths.

The same applies to FGM. If you think it is not carried out here at all, do your research. Funny thing, Governments carry out raids and prosecutions of some ethnic groups about holding cock fights, yet not one prosecution relative to FGM. I conclude that the butchering, torture and cutting flesh from Australian girls does not rate very high on government priorities.

Oh, and if you consider that holding objections to FGM being carried out here is xenophobic, then you are more idiotic than I thought.

Only fools argue with idiots.

OK Banjo - I won't argue with you then :)

So it was a generalised xenophobic rant for which you can't provide any actual evidence beyond generalised stereotypes. I thought as much.

For the record, I don't condone the practice of female genital mutilation in Australia or anywhere else. I'd just rather it was discussed factually, rather than utilised as an obviously extreme stick with which to beat all Muslims.

Also, while I've no doubt that some immigrants may have come from societies where dog or dolphin were part of their diets, I'd be very surprised if any of them are Muslims - which, you may recall, is the topic of the thread.

Morgan
please be sure to scroll to the bottom and look at the pictures

http://www.aact.org.au/greyhounds.htm

Should Our Slow Greyhounds Become Asia’s Fast Food?

Australia is the main player in creating, promoting and encouraging greyhound racing in Asia. Countries such as Korea, China, Vietnam and Macau. It is of great concern that Australia is exporting greyhounds to these countries.
There are no provisions made for these dogs when they finish racing in Asia and no chance of re homing. Countries such as Korea and China are notorious for their barbaric illegal thriving trade in dog meat for human consumption.
These dogs are killed in the cruellest possible ways as many Koreans believe that the rush of adrenalin through the dogs’ body as it dies in agony will increase human virility.
Millions of dogs each year are electrocuted, strangled, skinned alive or bludgeoned to death in Korea.
This is the fate of some Australian greyhounds. Others have been found terrorised and wandering the streets starving in South Korea. Dogs that started their lives in Australia, and were betrayed by individuals involved in the racing industry because they were not quite fast enough for our tracks.
More Information

Er, PALE&IF - and what exactly does any of that have to do with the subject of moderate Muslims?

"Some time back I came to the conclusion that you and Ginx were idiots who were doing a poor job of trying to be smart arses." (Quote: Banjo).

I AGREE!! You make a FAR better job of it.
__________________________________

(Don't forget;- you said you were going to reply only once......)

TammyJo

I 'am'really sorry I was angry with you.I can see your upset because you havent come out swining - which is more you :)
I apologise sincerly for upsetting you TammyJo.

Ginx

That was our line:)
Morgan’s confused mind said the following-

Er, PALE&IF - and what exactly does any of that have to do with the subject of moderate Muslims?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 5 March 2008 10:13:26 AM

Also, while I've no doubt that some immigrants may have come from societies where dog or dolphin were part of their diets, I'd be very surprised if any of them are Muslims – “:which, you may recall, is the topic of the thread”.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 5 March 2008 9:38:42 AM

Pale posted – re your comments= you said= I would be very surprised IF ANY MUSLIMS ATE DOG.

Pale posted this in reply regarding Australia exporting dogs ALIVE to see them being cooked in a pot alive view site

http://www.aact.org.au/greyhounds.htm

Morgan you looser,- you self centered looser.
You know nothing about Australian Muslims and NOR do you wish to learn. You just flap your gums full of grog and grumblings imop

I would far prefer to debate Ginx anytime. At least HE or SHE has a heart.
You are too ill-informed to debate any of the issues. You just sit back there you sniveling fool and made one liner nasty comments.

You convice yourself your smart and no doubt pride yourself with trolling looking to try to hurt and upset someone.

A coward in every sense of the word. Your a trouble maker.

Not a decent person or any type could look at that web site and not shudder.


At least Ginx cared enough to see the injustice regading freedom of speech


Dont go and kick the dog now will you-

Dear oh dear, poor old PALE&IF'S lost the plot completely:

"Pale posted – re your comments= you said= I would be very surprised IF ANY MUSLIMS ATE DOG.

Pale posted this in reply regarding Australia exporting dogs ALIVE to see them being cooked in a pot alive view site"

Oh I get it now - Muslims eat dog, especially those in "Korea, China, Vietnam and Macau". Riiiiggghht. I defer to PALE&IF's deep knowledge of Islam. QED.

I'll let the gratuitous insults go, because PALE&IF is clearly even loopier today than usual. The poor dear should have a temazepam, a cup of tea and a good lie down.

Diazepam,
You poor deluded creature. Does it MATTER whose eating the dogs that are reported to be exported from Australia.

You have zero soul less brains and as it’s clear you know all these drug names at least I know now what you mix with your beer!

I TRIED to have an intelligent discussion to reveal what we know about Muslim Leaders - What’s going on since the new elections of AFIC and the difference between some Islamic Groups and other right here in Australia.

You rubbish Bozzie and fair enough I am starting to agree with you.
I KEEP trying to tell you all To look at the AFIC web pages since the appointment of the new President( Who BTW I personally supported

by wring to JH to see the difference between now and a few years ago.

Surely EVEN YOU could look at the comments from the past X President saying= Main Stream modern and in fact MOST Muslims readily accept pre stun Halal Meats.

Then look at the push even more for live supported by the Government and ASK this=

Why is the Government quietly supporting trade with the not so modern main stream Muslims?

But I forgot Morgan you know it ALL

And anytime somebody comes along with some knowledge of something ANYTHING that YOU don’t know they are racist dicks heads.

You people don’t want a sensible debate. You just want to behave like nasty children.

What a bunch of losers. Ever stopped to THINK how much pressure people might be under to disclose material like this.

You rude and stop and ignorant IMOP

Oh dearie dearie me, I was referring to Banjo PALEIF, NOT CJ Morgan......

"TammyJo

I 'am'really sorry I was angry with you.I can see your upset because you havent come out swining - which is more you :)
I apologise sincerly for upsetting you TammyJo."

CUT IT OUT!! That is classic meow stuff.
_________________________________

Don't put me on any debating pedestal,- you know that by next week we may very likely to be at each others throats!

Get on, get off. That's life.

Both comments were sincere. Thats does not mean that if it might have made TammyJo stop to think how Taryn and many others posted felt after she supported that racist awful comment.

It does mean I was sorry if I caused her the same upset as she caused Taryn.

It does mean I respected you for being the only one to say something when Taryn was denied to oportunity to debate Tammy Jo support for it or ineded the person who posted it.

Er, Acctually all three were but I see Morgans running crying.

Its amazing how you do that Morgan but your the one always siting back making no comment on most subject but just taking nasty swipes at people.

Its clear you never debate any issues because you dont understand most political issues IMOP

I find you Morgan someone who enjoys upsetting people for no other reason than you think its smart.

Its cheap and common and incalled for. It never smart to hurt people.

I mean you cant even claim to be upset at someone as I was with Tammy.

You just come in from out of the blue and leave one liner personal swipes at a broad range of people.

I cant respect that.

Its shameful IMOP

Poor old PALE&IF seems to be having some kind of episode. I really can't work out what she's trying to say, beyond that I'm her object of abuse for the moment.

A couple of posts back she was babbling about allegations of live greyhound exports to East Asia, supposedly for food, in the context of her simultaneous claims to expertise in dealing with Muslims. Apparently she's unaware that there aren't all that many Muslims in Korea, Vietnam etc, and that the last thing any Muslim would eat anywhere would be dog meat.

Maybe she didn't mean to make such an incredibly stupid gaffe, but it's really hard to tell, given her mangled prose. That she's resorted to her usual strategy of just hurling abuse is hardly surprising - in this thread alone ahe's abused and insulted anybody who disagrees with her, or who doesn't respond to her 'invitations'.

I must say that whoever is currently posting as PALE&IF is doing the organisation absolutely no favours in terms of a credible public image - but this has been said before, and only attracted more deranged abuse.

Hello,

It's been a while since I bothered with such a forum. A quick read tells me not much have changed... there were naivety then...there is just as much naivety now. There were ignorance back then...but just as much ignorance now. Has anything changed?

Where do I start? How about the first post by Vanilla - "Some 93% of those polled called themselves "moderate" Muslims.

Vanilla, You can do better than that. Why not assert that 99.99% of Muslims claim they are 'moderate'?

My question :-
1. What will become of Australia if 99.99% of population are Islamic ??
2. Do you want/like it that way ?? Why ??

Any one, please ??

Gz
Well I don’t think anything anybody said to them would warrant a sensible conversation.
I have never seen your name before but welcome back to olo anyway.
I wasn’t expecting this type of thing when we joined as an institute.

We thought people would be interested too hear what’s going on in Australia but no that’s not the case.

We have been trying to tell bozzie (A poster) he does more harm than good posting about Muslims all the time with just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

Muslim people will follow their leaders both here in Australia and elsewhere. They net work world wide.

People do not understand how important it is to understand what going on here and with whom by whom.

Morgan that was much better. You managed to say what you wanted without stopping to personal abuse.
Congratulations. Who said you can’t teach an old dog new tricks.

Speaking of dogs why you don’t get the point- which was Australia export them to be beaten to death and cooked alive!
"Who Cares who by."

Gz No I don’t want Australian converted to all Muslims or Islam do you.?

I can say with real authority Muslim Leaders have ZERO respect for us Aussies
Ask me why and I will tell you- no worries.

Someone has to speak out- Oh and before you say it Morgan We Tried and Tried with them but they think they owe us nothing and can just pop into the Government to get special laws past because they are Muslims.

Laws like killing animals without pre stunning that the Government gave them. SHAME.

Right here in Australia.

So Gz they already have one law for them and one for us dragging our standards down

Take my word for it PALEIF, I have no wish to echo another poster, but I am buggered if I can make head or tail of your last TWO posts.

GZ, who has made two condescending judgemental posts so far, and yet can't even get his weblink right, has his little dig about Muslims; and you jump in and agree with him!!

Am I losing it? Haven't you spent your last several posts defending Muslims and pointing out your links with them?

It's been said before, and I'm going to say it again: how many of you are posting under the PALEIF banner? Your posts would only make sense if more than one person in your group is posting, AND you are in disagreement with one another!?

What 'awful racist comment' was supported by TJ??

I reckon my memory is going, because I'm fairly certain that TJ was one of the first people to ATTACK the most racist post I've ever seen on this site.

And if you refer to 'awful racist post' how come you are agreeing with the newbie/oldie and his thinly veiled racism?

What gives??

Ginx
We dont have to tell you or anybody else anything. We joined as an full member to educate people about animal cruelty in live exports and intensive farming
Mostly nobody you dont care.
Yes we worked with muslim leaders and I we were the only ones ooutside their own things have changed it very simple.

Had you lot shown the respect and the interest we would have contiuned to stick our necks out.

I work long hours and post in here as an extra. I have the beach and the bush family and many better things to spend my time on and in future intend doing just that.

OLO is embarresing in its poor quality. Its full of nasty people with personality and clearly alcol problem.

Even the rules change on a regular basis .First its all post under the tag and then its changed only to change and change again. For this we paid -
Personally I think olo could have been great but not let go like this- its a joke.
This really is beyond the pale
Goodbye

PALE&IF: "Goodbye"

Please let it be true this time!

PALE,
Am sure you now understand the futility of trying to have a rational discussion with CJ Morgan and Ginx and why I just ignore them. Unlike you, I will not specificly give them any of my knowledge on any subject.

In this case, you said muslims need to be better informed. I replied that all migrants need better information and gave some examples of things some migrants might find different here on arrival, which included non availability of dog and dolphin meat and illegality of FGM. CJ Morgan wanted evidence, which I could, but would not supply him. In true form he then claimed it was just xenophobic rant and you gave dramatic example of killing of dogs for meat. He continues to show his ignorance by claiming that opposition to FGM is xenophobic and an attack on muslims. I won't bother to inform him otherwise. These two remain idiots trying to be smart arses and are best ignored.

I still think your press release about AWB was spin and emotive, but I understand that in your situation it is necessary to get press coverage to show the public important information.
Governments, major political parties and big business have no trouble getting their press releases published simply because of the ammount of advertising they do in the media.

I think I am correct in saying that your contact with local muslim leaders and overseas based muslim business mem has been to encourage alternatives to the live export trade. To me that is a far more realistic and practical approach than simply jumping up and down demanding that love exports be stopped. I commed you for that.

What'd I tellyer?

We didn't even get as far as next week!!

"OLO is embarresing in its poor quality. Its full of nasty people with personality and clearly alcol problem" (PALE&IF)

.....use the SPELL CHECK!! (I know what you mean by poor quality..).

.....mind you, if it is such 'poor quality' do you think that that might have some connection to you??

AND if not;......why do you give so much time to a poor quality forum that is full of nasty embarresing alcol's?

Personally, I don't think love exports should ever be stopped. In fact, I've got a load of love right here that I'm hoping to dump on anyone who'd like their own little pile.

*dumps love on thread*

Hello Bongo!! thought you'd pop back.

I have to commed you for that.

More bulldust from Banjo:

"He continues to show his ignorance by claiming that opposition to FGM is xenophobic and an attack on muslims."

What I actually said was:

"For the record, I don't condone the practice of female genital mutilation in Australia or anywhere else. I'd just rather it was discussed factually, rather than utilised as an obviously extreme stick with which to beat all Muslims."

Does Banjo actually know how to make a point without seriously distorting the truth, fabricating statements, or resorting to outright lies? Trust him to be attracted to PALE&IF's hopelessly convoluted xenophobic babbling.

PALE, continued
Your rational approach, in promoting alternatives to the live trade recognises the importance the mutton trade is to Australia. We have about 3 million surplus mutton sheep to dispose of annually. We consume practically no mutton ourselves and if middle eastern countries did not take it we would be big losers.

This effects not only farmers incomes but all the thousands of workers involved in the sheep industry and the mutton trade.

I am still interested in learning about government duplicity and double standards in relation to any groups, muslim or otherwise. In my view everyone should get equal treatment and oppotunity.

Banjo,
I thought you were more into pig farming If you look at AP then be assurred same applies- You have got your answer.

Also what are you talking about.

The mutton can and should be killed here- Thats really hard to follow isnt it.

Nobody is taking anything from the farmers in actual fact they are giving the small good industry back to them,.

That eventually effects to price at the sale yards.

I cant help you with information on special favours given to certain companies if you dont know already.

Give that you come to us preaching you know all about how it goes down then I can only assume your poorly informed and dont know as much as you make out or a trouble maker.

Either way I am not interested and have better things to do with me time!

When I wanted to post about the trade links and favours and subs and favours you were not interested.

Oh So Sorry to dissapoint the dribbling fool. IMOP.

PALE: Apology accepted. For the record, the reason I had not contributed further to this thread was not because I was upset. I did not respond because I’ve had a gutful of your meandering ramblings, your generalized sweeping statements you peddle as valid truths and your adolescent attacks on me and other OLO contributers.

By the way, what was the “awful racist comment I was supposed to have supported?” Please back your accusations up with fact.

I was hoping you could further clarify another statement you made. You stated “I can say with real authority Muslim Leaders have ZERO respect for us Aussies.” Oh dear PALE- may I suggest you remove yourself from the Muslim/Australian debate because those kinds of comments are really not helpful in the promotion of good relations between the two. I think the Muslim people as a whole would be pretty pissed that you have the nerve to speak on their behalf.

While I am at it- I have a bit more advice. Perhaps you should choose one and promote it welll rather than many causes poorly. So just pick one- either saving live exported critters, advancing the cause of Muslims or advocating for the Aboriginal people or protecting the greyhound dogs of Australia. Just pick one and do it well!

One last suggestion. You may wish to access people in your organization who have marketing skills because your organization is not presenting themselves to well in the OLO arena- which does get international exposure. You would not want people get the wrong impression of PALE now would you?

CJMorgan- Thanks for taking the heat off me for a few posts- much appreciated.

Ginz- I know how you feel- the mind boggles.

Vanilla- Nice idea “ love exports” It would solve all our problems!

“Awful racist comment
Backed up wassups post when we requested it removed about aboriginals.

Tammyjosaid
I was hoping you could further clarify another statement you made. You stated “I can say with real authority Muslim Leaders have ZERO respect for us Aussies.”
Pale replies
Sure can No problems what so ever.btw that doesn’t mean All Muslims people - just certain Muslim - A must read.

Tammy said
I think the Muslim people as a whole would be pretty pissed...

Actually you’re wrong. It’s the Muslim people who would bbe very upset and actually little you know they already are.
Many are speaking out and have written in the Muslim times not happy with leadership not all all so we stand united actually (the people I mean.)
What they would be upset about is your expesion.that is ‘highly offensive’ to a Muslim Person. I almost didn’t respond to you at all when I saw it. It’s just so sad you people take no time to learn what offends these people. It really would not hurt surely. The other thing is I judge a man or woman by their performance not their religion and if something stinks I speak out regardless of whom they pray to. Makes no difference to me.Your all so scared its sickening.

Tammy said
One last suggestion.
There you go again unable to put regional work for aboriginal areas and plant reopening together along with Animal Welfare working direct with Muslims.
You can’t have one without the other.
Also do we tell you what and where to post?

Like I said get a job and then like Morgan ou will have more to do than pass your time picking on good people who unlike you work get paid and put it back into the community.
Any more Questions?

Study work go bush learn travel do something to educate
yourself or your kids a hobby anything-get a life

And WE pay for this For God Sake!

This would have to be the most bizarre thread I have come across. I presume that the contributor/s from PALE (apart from one, apparently) are of white Anglo/Saxon origin, and therefore cannot speak with real authority about what Muslim people might find offensive. They may know a number of Muslim people but by no means enough to make such a sweeping generalization. Nor do half-truths and partly informed comment constitute fact.

For those looking for a reliable reference to FGM (a practice facoured in many of the Muslim countries to which Australia exports animals), you will find it among research papers at the World Health Oganization. There is nothing "moderate" about FGM. There are degrees in severity, but it remains mutilation. In those countries, female rape victims are often publicly flogged and/or stoned to death, and other miscreants are dealt with with extreme severity.

If Muslim leaders have no respect for Australians, then perhaps they should give some thought to returning to their country/ies of origin, where one presumes they will have some respect for the people, and leaders there. The penalties are harsh if they fail to demonstrate that respect.

That said - the vexed topoic of AWB keeps re-appearing, and since it was all way back in 2003 and no-one was especially interested then, it seems even less relevant five years later, regardless of who the main players were. Finally, the insults in this thread are more spectacular and largely from a major contributor when they are challenged. Why can we not "keep it nice"?

Nicky

This looks like a result of ex-bloggers attempting to debate but incapable of even focusing on one issue. In this case - "Most Muslims are moderate".

My point is, it does NOT matter:-
1. how many Muslims regard themselves as "moderate", 93% or 99.99% is immaterial
2. how the West focus on changing its negative view of Muslims and Islam.
3. how the vast majority want Western democracy and freedoms, but (STRANGELY) do not want them to be IMPOSED.

The outcome is the same if Australia is 99.99% Islamic:
(1) No democracy and freedom.
(2) The remaining 0.01% non-Muslim population will be desperate to get out.

The problem is not whether a Muslim is moderate. The root problem is Islam religion itself.

I repeat - ISLAM is the problem.

Nicky
I was just about to enter some information on the RSPCA thread for you. I made the mistake I guess of thinking you were genioun about putting the animals first but it would be clear that your intentions are to be rid of these terrible people working to reopen Halal Abattoirs in place of live.

That aside I see you now wish to challenge me on my knowledge of what’s happening in Australia with Muslim Leaders etc.

Just before I do I will explain AWB still have to do with it.
Its our best chance of stopping live exports to ME.

AWB still export live animals and stuff all has changed.

Howard and Ruddock twelve weeks or so before the elections in a simple radio flash- one only that AWB was to close die to lack of funding to follow through on investigation where by people would have no doubt bee charged.

When our lawyers contacted Howard’s Downers and Rudocks Vailes – nobody knew who was supposed to be in charge of the funding? Very funny.

Of course it would have been Ruddock’s office.

So you still don’t get it I know. I can feel it.

Well Nicky as I said apart from missing out on seeing criminal charges laid at our old buddies which I am sure you wouldn’t mind either over the export of live animals through AWB and other activities - it’s Still going on...

" Nothings changes... So if it had of continued one thing for sure AWB wouldn’t be exporting at the moment and we would have a precedent and a dam good one for this government to follow."

I know you care and that good but you need to learn to listen as well. Now you don’t really want me to explain to you about Muhammad on Urine surely do you?
I cant see by upsetting the many Muslim reading this will help the Animals Nicky.
Lets leave poor old Muhammad and his Urine problems alone shall we.

PALE&IF: "goodbye"

I knew it was too good to be true.

"I cant see by upsetting the many Muslim reading this will help the Animals"

If any Muslims were reading this, it's highly unlikely they would interpret PALE&IF's incoherent claims about Islam and Muslims as constituting any kind of understanding of their religion.

In fact, if any of PALE&IF's "Muslim leaders of Australia" read any of PALE&IF's many deprecatory comments about Muslims in this forum, they would have every reason to disregard any MOU that PALE&IF thinks they have with them.

GT Stripe - you're an Islamophobic clown. Nobody missed you.

Gz
Sorry I didn’t see you there. I don’t mind sticking around this thread if there is someone sensible to post to. I have always said that. If you want to discuss Islam and how it affects us in Australia then I am happy to stay. Otherwise as you can see by the thread it’s pointless because none of them have the slightest idea what they are posting about.

They just think it’s cool to brand people racist for making even the most basic comment.
The first thing they need to learn is In Australia as other Western Countries they chose to home to live we talk openly about everything. We bag our PM our Governments. Hell we bag just about everything when you come to think of it.
It’s a very clever ploy the way I see it to put out we can’t talk about Muslims and Islam and what effect it may have on our culture and our daily lives.

As a matter of fact I am sure Muslims are going to have a huge effect on Australia and its next generation and those to follow.
This is even more reason we need to talk about these things.
I have some really good Muslim friends and they can see also that it’s Australia that could really gain but only if we are very careful who is leading in Australia.

There is nothing wrong with anybody be it Muslim or Christian bar their intend.
Nicky we have invited your buddies at Animals Australia to meet with us and Muslim Leaders for years.

They declined several times. Now I see they are mentioned on AFICs web site but not in the way I intended.
We MUST learn to talk openly and yes demand respect from Muslim leaders.
We are putting our hands up probably for the first time in this country and we are saying to AFIC leaders. Not Good Enough.

"I can say with real authority Muslim Leaders have ZERO respect for us Aussies
Ask me why and I will tell you- no worries." (Quote: PALEIF to gz 6th March).

Bizarre is right!! Now your OWN quotes are being attributed to somebody else!

I'm not bloody surprised that I'm getting confused by your posts PALEIF.

PALEIF,

Don't you worry about anything Ginx says.

She'll be a good gal after I offered her a chance to win a big price on this thread: "Are Americans about to subvert Islam?"

PALE, I don't know how many entities are posting under that name, or whether it is one entity with several personalities. Mohammed and urine? For God's sake, where did that come from?

I do not have "buddies" an Animals Australia, nor did I think that this thread was the one in which you would want to renew your attacks on them because they chose not to have anything to do with you, but some things never change. I probably don't need you to inform me about the RSPCA either, thanks.

As well as trying to "keep it nice", could we also try to be a bit coherent and sensible, without personal attacks, and without the histrionics? Some of the posters here clearly are trying to keep returning you to the topic under which the thread was started, but it's not going to work, is it?

Nicky

gz,

No Uk.

Nick
Let me get this straight. You come into this thread- just out of the blue like- never posted here before. You - take swipes at us saying we know a little about what upsets Muslim People- after working more closely with them than any of you. –

Then you proceed to be some official on what upsets Muslim faith people. Seesh!

You have done nothing other than abuse
Our staff over a very long period of time. THEN you say keep it nice.

You go on with a silly ill-informed statement about AWB.

No Nicky it was only outside” twelve weeks “prior to the elections that Howard’s Government announced on one only ABC radio statement that AB W enquiry had to close due to no funding.

Nicky you go on to say you doubt our comments but then dish out your old- *For those wishing a reliable source bla*

And here you are again nicky saying>
“There is nothing "moderate" about FGM. There are degrees in severity, but it remains mutilation. In those countries, female rape victims are often publicly flogged and/or stoned to death, and other miscreants are dealt with extreme severity”

Pale comments Ooow that ought to help fish relationships.
Well done! Since when was it up to us to tell ME people how to live?

Here you are again>
If Muslim leaders have no respect for Australians, then perhaps they should give some “thought to returning to their country/is of origin, where one presumes they will have some respect for the people, and leaders there. The penalties are harsh if they fail to demonstrate that respect.”
Why can we not "keep it nice"?

Pale comments ,hilarious why cant you keep in nice indeed.

I* will report the AFICs new presidents attitude but I am not asking Him to leave the country for god Sake!

I think a please explain will do.

If we asked everybody to leave the country each time they didnt honour their word there would be nobody left

PALE, I don't think that knowing a handful of Muslim people qualifies you to comment on their behalf, and it's disappointing that you apparently believe that FGM is acceptable.

When you move to another country, you accept the rules that that country lives by. If you are not prepared to do so, then you should live somewhere where you ARE prepared to live by the rules. It is quite simple.

So the Howard government discontinued the rather obscure AWB enquiry. It changes nothing. Continuing it would change nothing either. The Howard government is dead. The Rudd government doesn't give a damn about all the stuff you are trying to make an issue of. So let's give it a rest. As someone pointed out, the information you are propounding as intimate knowledge was derived from a media release, so it is a matter of public record for those who are interested. I am not.

Give us a break from the conspiracy theories, and the constant, incoherent abuse, and you might one day be able to get someone to work with you.

That is the REAL reason, I suspect, that none of the animal groups will have anything to do with you. You give them a bad name. If you want to do something on a professional level you need to learn to behave like a professional. Asking someone like you to "keep it nice" was never going to go anywhere, but those people new to this forum must be really wondering what sort of outfit it is that you purport to be running.


Nicky

Nicky
I may be slapping a few over the nuckles at present and rightfully so. However that is supported by many Muslim people as well. I am NOT going to tell them all to leave the country- like you!

You raved on about us working with the Muslims to earn our blood money as I think you termed it or words to that effect.

If you look at our web site or the Subs to the Senate Enquiry into Animal Welfare in fact you will see a very different picture.

You will see letter of support from The HS Society along with Subs and letters from The Muslim Leaders at AFIC at the time.
So that’s far from being without support.

No we are not happy with the change of events that have taken place since the new elections. (AFIC)

Now speaking of disunity your friends had a twenty year track record for that.

You may not see the connection Nicky with AWB and the findings of the Cole Enquiry.( Or the fact is was closed down before reconditions for charges to be laid against high ranking people In government- However we do.
We work in conjunction with RSPCA QLD and I remind you again they are in charge of Animal Welfare not your friends as much as they like to think they are.
It’s interesting that we are invited to sit at the table of the sheep council for example and hold talks on the condition we do not bring them.
It’s also interesting sad that farmers are staring to hate animal welfare groups. Very sad. That’s the worst possible result we could hope for.
If you give the farmers and the indusrty a hand to reopen more plants creating competition so they get a good price.

Nicky until you fully understand the meat industry it is you who are doing damage because the industry and the Government laugh at the libbers ignorance it the trade.
Now please tell this forum what has changed regarding live exports run by AWB
I am waiting? This ought to be good.

She'll be a good gal after I offered her a chance to win a big price on this thread: "Are Americans about to subvert Islam?"
Posted by gz, Saturday, 8 March 2008 6:22:09 PM

................a big PRICE??

A BIG PRICE....YOU WIN IT!

PALE continues to be as incoherent as ever, and sees only what it wants to see. I did not at any time suggest that "all Muslims should leave the country", I simply said that anyone (not only Muslims) who has come to this country and is not preprared to live by the rules should go somewhere where they are. I also have never used the term "blood money", or "words to that effect". PALE should also leave the Muslim community to represent itself on these fora since it lacks authority to speak on its behalf.

Is it the air in Queensland or do they drink and smoke funny stuff?

I do not see any lack of cohesion amongst the animal protection groups either, it is simply that, worn out by the abuse and threats of legal action, they refuse to have anything to do with PALE, which they probably recognizse gives them all a bad name.

As I understand it, the RSPCA in Queensland is NOT the responsible body for the welfare of "farmed" animals in that state; carriage of that role is with whatever the Department of Primary Industry is called up there. RSPCA Queensland looks after companion animals, so gets to leave the hard stuff largely alone.

The submissions referred to are to the Senate Committee for Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport back in 2003 in response to a Private Members' Bill by Senator Bartlett. PALE lodged something like five or six submissions of carying length and with varying degrees of coherence. From memory there is one of a couple of pages about cruelty to crustaceans (see question above). There is a one or two paragraph letter from HSI, but I doubt whether HSI's support would be continuing if it could read some of the claptrap PALE posts on these fora

Nicky

Nicky

Your dislike of Muslims and RSPCA are all over the forum. I know I stopped posting along with others because I got sick of it.

You claim you like animals and I think the more the better despite working in different ways.

I do read the forum still and keep up on several topics but mainly animal welfare.

I am also in a far better position than you to comment on pale MOUs with Muslim Leaders of Australia.

I do not see anywhere pale claiming they were speaking on behalf of all Muslims

What I see is a honest post expressing disappointment in certain changes and promises broken.

There is nothing wrong with that and I think it’s healthy. I see pale are also quick to point out there are many other Muslims that are saying the same thing.

One thing I do know Nicky is I have not seen you anywhere near meetings with these people as I have attended. So its clears as I said I would know a lot more than you.

Your intentions are clear. Every thread pale enters they are followed by you too weak to post your real name.

I support RSPCA and farmers and the many really good well intended Muslim People in Australia.

That means I support pale because they are the only ones supporting RSPCA and the good Muslim People and there are plenty.

Again I should know because unlike you I have actually met with them many times.

The submissions referred to be to the Senate Committee for Rural and Regional Affairs you keep going on about thread after thread was a fantastic example of Muslim Leaders working together with RSPCA QLD and pale.
It was only made possible through pales MOU with AFIC and pale have worked tirelessly towards improving Animal Welfare.

Despite your claim otherwise RSPCA QLD are the leaders without a doubt working in many projects and spear heading new solutions.

Never read sensible suggestions from you other than rubbish RSPCA Muslims Farmers or Pale.

Why don’t you do something more productive?
For the Animals

To Macropod Whisperer amd PALE, neither of whom post in their own names ...

1. It was not I who raised the issues about radical Muslims, I merely commented that people of any ethnic origin who emgrate to different countres should live by the rules of those countries or reconsider their emigration decisions. I also did not presume a broad knowledge of Muslim culture, I simply pointed out that people of Anglo-Saxon origin living in Australia are not the people to be purporting to representing that culture, even if they do know a few.

2. It was not I who raised the dreaded old Senate submissions, it was PALE

3. It is a fact that RSPCA Queensland does not have carriage of the welfare of "farmed animals" in that state. That was not necessarily a criticism of RSPCA Queensland, since I am aware that there are some excellent operators up there, but it is something of an easy way out. It leaves the path to abuse wide open since Departments of Primary Industry generally have that responsibility, and in some states they are also the regulators of intensive farming industries.

So Macropod Whisperer, you should read the full content before you engage in abuse at the PALE level. I also expressed no interest or desire in attending meetings with "Muslim leaders" at any time (or any association with PALE), stating quite openly that I do not support PALE's philosophy. Just because PALE says its strategy, which seems to have "gone pear-shaped", is the "only way" by no means indicates that to be the case. You really all need to get over yourselves, stick to topics at hand, try to communicate a bit civilly and clearly, and stop abusing everyone who disagrees with you. You present as totally disorganized, incoherent and unprofessional, and do your cause no good at all. Do you not care about that?

Nicky

Nicky?

Who are you kidding we are the only ones who are upfront as to who we are.
We have put our site up for all to see several times- Here we are again along with Muslim Leaders and RSPCA QLD
Of course you prefer to his behind a false name so other readers of the forum can not identify you.

http://www.livexports.com/
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

Why you continue to attack good people like pale and Macropod Whisperer Taryn.

They give their own personal funds and hours daily for free to help are certainly not the enermy.

The subs you have so nastily pointed out as being rubbish are an insult to Muslim Leaders considering they lodged them.

It was their first sub to a Senate Enquiry into Animal Welfare in Australians history.

It took three nights working after hours and many late night calls to enquire what this code of practice was and what is meant and so forth.
I am proud of the Muslim Leaders at the time for that. Its fair to say it’s more than our Christian leaders did.

I don’t think they have ever lodged a sub to a Senate Enquiry into Animal Welfare in their lives...

While we are being very open about our anger to 'some' peoples changes since the elections -we have stressed this is only with some Muslim leaders.

It’s no different to complain about Kevin Rudd and Kerry Obion prior elections promises.

Nicky said
I do not support Pale’s philosophy.
Pale replies

Apart from RSPCA QLD I would have to say our best support comes from four Muslim People all holding different positions within the Muslim Society

Nicky said
And it's disappointing that you apparently believe that FGM is acceptable.

Nicky this is Wendy Lewthwaite of pale.

Neither pale nor I said they supported FGM and I ask you to request that remark be removed from this forum.

No.
Nicky

To my FAN CLUB... I realized of course that to put a list up like I did from Wiki that there would a be a couple of contributors who would take it upon themselves to declare it a mirror image or a self description :)

Like I didn't see that coming :) hence.. assuming it would come, I just ignored it, till now.

Thing is, it's all in the perspective. But can any of you actually point to a 'name' I've called you in the last month or so ?

I think I asked a question of Pericles "Are you stubborn or ignorant" and it was a genuine question...not a name call.

So.. please (now that you love my 'list' :) make your own of 'names' I've called any of you which can qualify for the first 2 points on the list.

-Labelling.
-Name calling.

But Ginxy.. if you do :) you so KNOW what I'll quote in reply don't ya.

TOPIC. Most muslims are moderate .... yes. Until you threaten Islam, or.. threaten to tighten legislation about Islam or Muslims... then the picture changes somewhat.

"I think I asked a question of Pericles "Are you stubborn or ignorant" and it was a genuine question...not a name call."

This post has given me the biggest laugh of the day (aside from one Col wrote about "checking out chicks").

It bamboozles me, Boazy, that anyone could have interpreted this as anything other than a genuine question. After all, it has a question mark! In the same "no offense or nothing" vein, I'd like to pose a question to you.

Are you self-delusional, or just not a very nice person?

"I cant see by upsetting the many Muslim reading this will help the Animals"

Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 8 March 2008 9:03:57 AM
Morgan

pale comments
Nobody is imune from public accountabilty. Why on earth do you think we posted our honest comments in the first place for heavens sake.
If people do not honour their agreements especially as leaders then they should be held to account.
We are asking leaders of AFIC to repond to their breech of trust and breaking our MOU.

Not all Muslim Leaders or x leaders have upset us Morgan.
There are many who happen to agree with us.

Regadless I am not going to walk on egg shells or treat them any different to any other member of the Australia people.

So your imagination runs away with you if you think my posts are here for any other reason other than (as they say to keep the bastards honest.)

We will talk again,. We always do and each blue brings us closer.
Someone normally rings and say hery Guys Merry Christmass.
Thats the way of it.
The stakes are very high at the moment. We cant comprimise on animal welfare but its fair to say we need to also listen a bit more to why they believe no pre stunning is kinder.

Despite many screaming I am at least prepaired to listen.

We of course would love the local plants with humanh sl;aughtering introducuing gas to large beasts. A big job.
I think if we work together we can pull it offer.

Like everything there is nothing wrong with anybody bar the intention. But you would know all about that Morgan wouldnt you:)


David I hasve no beef with you other than the fact as I said several times we invited you to contact us re attending meetings alone with us tro meet with Aussie Muslim Leaders.

We just thought you might gain some insite but you ignored our posts and went on about some Islamic thing in far off p-laces.
Your choice. No worries.

Er, PALE&IF - they were your words originally. I was quoting them back to you as an example of your hypocrisy. Now you've quoted them to make it look as if it it was me that made that comment originally - tortuous grammar and all.

It's more than a little dishonest to attribute statements to those who didn't actually make them in the first place. What you said, in the post before I quoted you, was

"Now you don’t really want me to explain to you about Muhammad on Urine surely do you?
I cant see by upsetting the many Muslim reading this will help the Animals Nicky.
Lets leave poor old Muhammad and his Urine problems alone shall we."
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1547#29765

Do try and be honest in future.

CJ Morgan
Originally we were instructed not to repond to you. However to me that seemed a bit rude.
I wasnt brought up that way and it didnt sit too well with other members so we tried to include you in our comments and even exchanged a few jokes alone the way with you.

However you seem to have very little input on olo other than as we said before bardge in with one or two lines nasty digs at whoever is the target for that day thread or whatever.

Now if anybody is qualified not only on this thread but within Australia to join in on this thread it would have to be us.

Put in its most simply form Morgan as far as I am aware AFIC have not entered into MOUs with other Aussies and espeically regarding Animal Welfare and Halal Abattoirs which they play a huge part in. Thatt is as I see it part of the problem.

Many people think they are just off to their Mosque or Islamic schools and playing little other part in this country . Far from it.

Now as per usual you have offered nothing to the topic of the thread and for once I wouldhave to say we were well advised when the CEO requested we do not exchange posts with you..

We will just leave it at that. I have far more important things to do with my time.
Its difficult enough getting the hours in the day to do our work pluss post on a forum without throwing it out the door mucking around with people who seem to have some sort of personality problem.

You have zero concern for Animals Morgan and for some reason you seem to think people are interested in your nasti little remarks.

pale isnt one of them

I think PALE&IF should follow their CEO's orders. I also agree that they probably have much better things to do with their time than making "People Against Live Exports and Intensive Farming" look really silly on this forum.

Hi all
Just so we are all clear about what it is PALE wants to sue me (or whoever, in its deluded mind, it thinks I am), or have sanctions imposed on me for, here is my comment and PALE's response:-

This is to refresh PALE's extremely erratic memory and interpretation, and it is its OWN comment (note especially about "telling Middle Eastern people how to live". The sad grammar, spelling and punctuation are PALE's, not mine and I remain mystified about "fish" but suspect she/they meant "finish")

"And here you are again nicky saying>
“There is nothing "moderate" about FGM. There are degrees in severity, but it remains mutilation. In those countries, female rape victims are often publicly flogged and/or stoned to death, and other miscreants are dealt with extreme severity”

Pale comments Ooow that ought to help fish relationships.
Well done! Since when was it up to us to tell ME people how to live?"

Finally PALE claims to be in the best position to comment for the Muslims - I would contest that on the basis that the best people would be the Muslims themselves. And David's comment was not too far off either, about the repercussions from the Muslim community when there is talk of tightening anti-terrorist and other related legislation.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky

Nobody mentioned sueing you. We asked for you to remove the comment that pale supported FGM. For goodness sake we didnt even send it to the OLL staff. Instead we were very poliite in requesting you remove it yourself.

You come on OLO claiming you are a animal lover. I find it interesting however when we posted about the complaint to Graham young from the WA live exporters you were not even interested.
I would have thought that would have been of some interest to you and Animals Australia etc.

I guess it just goes to show one thing and that is our CEO is correct about more than one thing.

I put it to you you if you were a sincere animal lover you would not be trolling and picking at the different people= all good people that post as not only members of the public but at times members of pale.

I sent the information down to lyn White regarding The director of Emanuel Brothers, being named by us on olo.

It seems to be something that bothers these people. I spoke at lenghth with John who expressed some agreement with what our organisations is doing regarding reopening plants.

As far as anything to do with the Muslim Leaders of this country is concerned Nicky its clear not one of you understand we have no intention of treating them any differntly that any body else.

They are bright enough to figure it out so long as we are a hundred percent straight with them.

RSPCA QLD and PALE have enjoyed many meetings with them. It would be fair to say pale more than RSPCA QLD although they do support of course the reopening of Ozzie plants to divert live to chilled.

Yes I make typing errors considering I only post her in my spare time. That AFTER a twelve hour unpaid day self funded to help animals.

Unless you enter threads to discuss Animal Welare we have zero interest in posting with your company in mind.

Vanilla slice.... u are indeed my fav :)

but self delusional? hmmmm I guess I have my share of that.

Am I 'not a nice person' ? well.. I'm sure there are those who feel that way at times. But generally I get along well with all.

I could ask you the same questions.... but the ones I'd ask you are:

Do you look at evidence, and then, without actually researching it, draw conclusions that it is 'thus and so' then.. project animosity based on those unresearched ideological conclusions to others.. like.. me ?

You see.. I'll start taking you seriously, when you start taking the key portions of the Quran seriously, and connecting them with the problem of Islamic radicalism which we all face now.

9:29
9:30

are the keys.
You could examine the context, and how such verses have been applied by Mohammad, given that there could be no better interpreter of these words than he who penned them.

Its called 'objective reasearch' you might like to try it sometime.

blessings

Boazy: "Its called 'objective reasearch' (sic) you might like to try it sometime"

You are such a wag, Boazy! You wouldn't know objective research if you fell over it, let alone know how to conduct it.

Boazy: "Do you look at evidence, and then, without actually researching it, draw conclusions that it is 'thus and so' then.. project animosity based on those unresearched ideological conclusions to others.. like.. me ?"
No.

Boazy: "I'll start taking you seriously, when you start taking the key portions of the Quran seriously, and connecting them with the problem of Islamic radicalism which we all face now."
Ok.

PALE, I don't know anything about any dealings you have had with Graham Young about Emanuels, and as I have said on the other thread, I would imagine that you don't know any more about Emanuels than Animals Australia does. Naming people on OLO does not seem to constitute any particular innovation or courage when the information you seem to be talking about is quite readily available.

Your problem is you trap yourself all the time by having an incoherent tantrum every time people disagree with you. That's where you went wrong in your FGM response.

Your arrangements with your "Muslim leaders" seem to be pretty flexible since you want to invite people you don't even know to attend these "meetings", given that there are apparently no binding agreements in place for anything at all. How many "Muslim leaders" are we talking about, by the way, since you profess to be an authority on Muslim thought?

Just going back to the Senate RR&T submissions for the last time - since you did not address any of the criteria in the Private Members Bill, you should get some feedback from the committee about the extent to which they were taken seriously. In these cases, you would have done well to follow the format of some of the more expert submissions, and there were some very good ones. If you want to address animal welfare in different fora, you need to learn to do it in a way that is relevant to the particular subject criteria (from what I recall, live export was not a significant part of the Private Members Bill, for example) and in the correct format, or politicians just file it in the bin.

Nicky

Nicky

The subs you speak about were lodged by the Muslim leaders of Australia RSPCA QLD and PALE.
Veggie organisations as you know do not get involved with reopening abattoirs.
We understand that. That does not mean our organisation should not work just as hard making the arrangments that we think will make a difference.

In fact many organisations working on the same problems in different ways is a good thing.

Regarding the live exporters who complained about being publicly named on the net our point simply was that perhaps you have seen a good example that they do not like to be known or named in public.

There was a little hint in their for yourself and those working with you.

Here is a list which we already provided to Animals Australia some time ago

http://www.livexports.com/contacts.html

Actually Lyn White contacted us by phone to thank us. We often send information and I know they appreciate it especially Lyn.

Your childish attacks ongoing at our organisation are I suppose one the the saddest things I have seen for the good name of animal welfare.

You do nothing for the thousands of people working to improve Animal Welfare in this country and elsewhere.

The good people we work with at RSPCA QLD make such an effort to present their arguments to the Government along with all the branches and also hundreds of other groups including pale.

Perhaps if you put as much energy into doing likewise it may be more helpful to the animals that need everybody working to bring about the changes required.

We wont be responding to you on olo again.

Yeah, right, PALE. Since you do not know me, and do not know what I do or for or with whom, yours are the usual sweeping, uninformed statements you habitually make about your critics.

Why is it we see no EVIDENCE of what you do/have done, other than a website promoting slaughterhouses? Compare your website to Live Export Indefensible and LiveExportShame.com and see the differences. It's very sad really. That contact information is readily available from ASIC and other sources. You must have noticed by now that those whom you say you have publicly named do not give a damn about that, and Animals Australia most certainly would already have had that information.

If your Muslim friends submitted those submissions, which I doubt, they should have sought advice on procedure and format and had someone proof read them first.

Now do stick to your word and don't respond again.

Nicky

SUBMISSION TO THE SENATE COMMITTEE FOR RURAL AND REGIONAL AFFAIRS AND TRANSPORT
ANIMAL WELFARE BILL, 2003 PRIVATE MEMBERS BILL
SUBMISSION FROM (AFIC) AUSTRALIAN FEDERATION Of ISLAMIC COUNCIL AND COUNCILS IN CONJUNCTION WITH (HKM) HALAL KIND MEATS, PALE AND RSPCA QLD
(HKM)and the AFIC are aware of a Court hearing regarding a Western Australia charges that have been laid and whilst supportive of this and anything against Animal cruelty would like to stress that until an alternative method has been developed within Australia it will continue to happen. We must have an alternative to fix the Animal Welfare in this country.

Australian Federation of Islamic Councils AFIC) and HKM are working hard and would seek everybody’s Cooperation and assistance to do so.
Perhaps the best way is to focus on all farm animal feedlots including dairy cattle, battery chooks and all things mentioned under this Bill.

Again the evidence of animal cruelty is well documented so we will work to alleviate the problem.

(AFIC)in conjunction with HKM RSPCA QLD PALE supports the complete overhaul of the way in which the inspections are carried out in ships carrying animals overseas. (AFIC) in conjunction with RSPCA QLD (HKM) recognises that there is no way we can ensure good Animal Welfare in other Countries where we have no powers and again supports free ranged farms in Australia.

My point exactly. Exactly what section of the Private Member's Bill does this purport to address?
Nicky

http://www.halaljournal.com/?page=article&act=show&pid=1403&PHPSESSID=006845c1148974db40b4dd37ca6ac1c2
Getting back to this threads intention some might find some actual Information regarding what is happening with Muslim Faith People-interesting

Halal finance is as important as halal meat Last Updated: Mar 13, 2008, 14:10

By gaapweb.com
Mar 13, 2008, 10:06

The Islamic finance industry, driven by Muslim developments, is making headway in the West, it has been claimed.

Junaid Bhatti, Islamic finance expert and director of Ballencrieff House, stated that Islamic compliant finance products are not just popular with Muslims, but also people of other religions.

"There are three main factors driving the growth of sharia-compliant finance in the European markets - Muslim customers, non-Muslims looking for ethical finance and finally the governments themselves," he explained.

Halal finance products protect funds from unethical businesses or activities and there has been an increasing trend among westerners to try and live their lives by certain ethical principles, he added.

With over 50,000 UK Islamic finance customers and a worldwide industry growth rate of between 15 per cent and 20 per cent, the products are growing in popularity, Mr Bhatti claimed.

Last year, the Chartered Institute of Management Accountants launched its first qualification in Islamic Finance, giving those in accountancy jobs the chance to develop the skills necessary in the £250 billion industry.


The proposal by these people quite clearly was ignored by many.
The vast funds that travel throughout the Halal meat industry is the keys to working with Muslim people world wide.

Here are just a few of the projects the people are involved in-

http://www.halaljournal.com/?page=article&act=show&pid=1407

Yikes.. I see I stilllll have work to do in counselling young CJ and Vanilla slice.

CJ.. you said:

You are such a wag, Boazy! You wouldn't know objective research if you fell over it, let alone know how to conduct it.

COMMENT: err yet again you are sticking pins into your BD doll.. not a shred of actual debate the points I raised.

I claimed these verses from the Quran along with Mohammad's own behavior and subsequent statement"s show that they are the key to understanding Islamic radicalism.

Your comprehensive and solidly argued response "Boazy, ur such a wag"

CJ.. haven't I told you often enough PEOPLE LOOK at what you write :)
and ur using your REAL name here... for crying out loud.. do you want to become the laughing stock of your peers?

Responding to well supported claims about ideas which could easily result in great damage to Australia and its people and you in all your smug brilliance come up with 'ur a wag' .... sheesh.

As I said to Slice.. IF.. you feel there is a problem with the understanding I am drawing from the material itself.. ARGUE IT.. and do so using the earliest documents and sources.

OH.. I had a good convo on the phone with Aziza Abdel-Halim.. and we discussed the news article where she was quoted about the time table matter.

Her understanding of Islam is what might be termed 'historic/contextual' and 'flexible' She appears to be of the 're-interpret Islam' school. That's fine, but my concern is for those who would try to impose a much more literal view on even her.

Ended up me inviting her to give me an hour to convert her, and she (smilingly) said "Oh..it might be the other way around".. aah. .all good.

Boazy: "She appears to be of the 're-interpret Islam' school. That's fine, but my concern is for those who would try to impose a much more literal view on even her."

Boazy, you may recall that this thread is about the 93% of Muslims who consider themselves "moderate". However, it seems that as a rabidly fundamentalist Christian, you can't conceive that Muslims are as capable of reinterpreting their book of sacred myths as the great majority of Christians are.

To those of us who aren't indoctrinated into literal interpretations of ancient mythology, your concerns seem just a tad one-eyed - for most of us, your persistent efforts at "imposing a much more literal view" of the the Bible (excluding, of course those nastier bits that you choose to ignore) on everybody else are just as abhorrent as those of peaceful fundamentalist Muslims.

That is why you are incapable of recognising and producing objective research. You don't actually know what it is.

"..yet again you are sticking pins into your BD doll"

As I keep on telling you Boazy, that's your fantasy, not mine. You're into the hocus pocus and mumbo jumbo, not me. I'd rather stick with verifiable independent evidence and rationality, thanks.

Finally, you do seem to be contravening your recent claimed antipathy to ad hominem argument a lot this weekend - is it something to do with an excess of religious fervour?

Speaking of which, isn't it lovely that Easter and Mohammed's birthday coincided this year? Happy Birthday Mohammed!

aah CJ

dare I say it? yes.. I will.... you attacked 'me'.. not my argument :)

I think you missed it.. I said I was concerned about 'others' imposing a more rigid intepretation on HER...

When I said she is of the 'flexible' interpretive school, you don't seem to appreciate what that means in the Islamic context. It's a huge HUGE divide between Muslims.

As I've said.. regarding F.H.s brand of Islam, I don't see it as a threat.. nor do I see hers to be particularly troublesome, but then, I believe I know enough about "Islam" now, to say that neither F.H. or Aziza reflect the historic version, that's my opinion.

Now..they might disagree with me there, and that's fine, so the resolution of the matter boils down to certain identifiable criteria.

-Status of the Quran "Word of Allah for all mankind for all time" ?
-Status of Mohammad "Example to be emulated for all time"?
-Reasons for the difference between 'Western' Muslim interpretations and those held by people in Muslim countries where they have power.

Now..if it can be shown that 'flexible/contextual' interpretations of Islam are invalid, that leaves the 'Islamist/radical' approach.

Objective research will recognize all the above, and then also realize that there will always be a division between sects and branches of Islam. This in no way diminishes our responsiblity to analyse it and identify implications for our own societies.