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The Forum > Article Comments > The green car - déjà vu all over again? > Comments

The green car - déjà vu all over again? : Comments

By Tom Gosling, published 4/7/2008

Mr Rudd - why not save everyone some time and money by having another look at the green car developed during the Howard era?

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A good read Tom. Let’s hope that a green car can be developed…and quickly…that can get us through our looming oil-crunch transport woes and minimise the associated economic and social stresses.

I can’t get a handle on which format is better; hybrid vehicles, all-electric or gas…or what?

We now have current articles/discussions on all three. But no one is comparing them. You advocate hybrids, Klaas Woldring pushes all-electric cars (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=7588) and The Bull advocates gas (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1949).

How do we figure out which is best, or which combination is best, for a quick conversion on a massive scale and which will be considerably more affordable for the average person and heavy transport than petrol/diesel vehicles are now or are about to become?
Posted by Ludwig, Friday, 4 July 2008 4:44:35 PM
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Ludwig, all those car types could play a role, but this is the way
I read it. The hybrid (like the Prius) is quite a complex vehicle,
still petrol driven, with the main benefits in traffic etc.

LNG powered cars, yup it could be done, again with problems.

The plug-in is really the simplest and most versatile solution, IMHO.

Firstly they are relatively cheap and easy to build, with few working
parts. The big cost is the batteries, but that is being worked
on rapidly. As a back up, for longer journeys, they do have a small
petrol engine, which drives a generator to charge the batteries. But
most commuters on a daily basis, drive less then 200km. So in many
cases, it would hardly be used.

It makes sense to pipe that LNG to a power station and use it to
create elecricity, with which you then charge your batteries.
Plug-ins would let you have some solar cells, or a small wind turbine,
to do the charging for you, if you wish. They could also use power
that is now wasted as baseload power, in the middle of each night,
when consumption is lower then baseload production.

Next where I still see potential, is to take that CO2 from power
stations and convert it back into energy, via algae. They are such
simple lifeforms to grow and the figures that I have seen look
very impressive, but the important thing is they need CO2 to grow
and lots of it. So why not recycle the CO2 back into energy?
To me that makes far more sense, then spending huge amounts of
money to store it underground.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 6 July 2008 12:51:16 AM
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Thanks Yabby. That makes eminent sense, in line with Klaas Woldring’s article and comments from rstuart on a related thread http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1949#39990, http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1949#39999.

But it prompts another question; if petrol (and diesel?) can be produced from LNG, coal and other plant material at a price that is competitive with current or near-future oil-fuel prices, which it apparently can, then wouldn’t it be better to do that?

If we did that, we could run the current transport infrastructure, whereas if we switched to all-electric, we'd have to completely turn over all cars and trucks… at a great resource cost I would imagine. Presumably also it would take considerably longer to implement on a nationwide scale. Just how significant these resource and time factors might be, I can’t envisage.

Unfortunately, the hybrid technology that Tom Gosling is espousing is not getting much of a look-in here.

Tom, what do you think about these options?
Posted by Ludwig, Sunday, 6 July 2008 7:46:45 AM
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Ludwig, I don't think that the present infrastructure is going to
go away in a hurry, so petrol/diesel use will continue, especially
in trucking, farming, mining etc, where brute force is required.

As to oil/coal to liquids, I guess that is one that energy companies
have studied closely and it will depend on investment/risk/returns.
If it is worth it, they will do it.

At the moment they seem to all want to build LNG export terminals
in Gladstones, to export coal seam gas at global prices of about 15$
a unit, rather then sell it locally for 2-3$ a unit.

Where I see the plug-in winning is by sheer consumer driven demand
and you have to think globally here. Other countries have hydro power
or nuclear power, also ever cheaper solar and wind power, compared to
fossil energy.

Plug-ins are relatively cheap to produce. Tesla think that they will
have a sedan on the road for 30k$, in four years time. Add cheap
fuel up costs of 1c-2c a km and people will buy them bigtime, whereas
right now, GM/Chrysler etc are not far off going broke, due to slumping sales
of SUVs, trucks etc, where they used to make their
money.

GM plan to have the Volt on the market by 2010. Every car manufacturer
can see the writing on the wall and all are heading in the same
direction. Its just a question of time really. These things take
time and last year we still did nothing. This time, the oil price
spike is making everyone sit up and take notice, not just of
price, but also reliability of ME energy supplies.

I could buy a Telsa sports car tomorrow, buy some solar cells and
be free of worries about energy supply. All green technology too.
Reduce those costs and consumers will decide the winner.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 6 July 2008 11:15:42 AM
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When it comes to hybrid vehicles, consider this -

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/print_item.asp?NewsID=188

It's a bit like those "power saving" light globes, that take more energy to manufacture than they actually save and then create vastly more environmental pollution when they are disposed of than their inefficient predecessors.

Just a feel-good exercise but at least it does create a new awareness.

Perhaps we should just find ways of driving less.
Posted by wobbles, Monday, 7 July 2008 1:18:51 AM
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A very interesting link Wobbles.

So how do lithium-ion batteries or other technologies compare with the Prius nickel-containing batteries? What is the ‘dust-to-dust’ energy consumption equivalent of the soon-to-be-released Tesla Roadster and Chevy Volt?

If the Toyota Scion xB is really so much better than the Prius in its overall energy expenditure throughout its life, manufacture and decommissioning, then is the ultimate answer really to get right away from hybrids and electric cars and concentrate fairly and squarely on building the smallest and most efficient petrol-driven vehicles…and developing the gas-to-liquid and coal-to-liquid capabilities to provide the fuel?
Posted by Ludwig, Monday, 7 July 2008 7:56:20 AM
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