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The Forum > Article Comments > Building bridges of spaghetti is not enough > Comments

Building bridges of spaghetti is not enough : Comments

By John Daicopoulos, published 4/2/2008

Why get a full honours degree in physics then learn to teach, when you can simply enter a teacher training program and learn some physics along the way?

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An interesting article, obviously informed by a lot of experience.

I notice that the PM intends to run an education stream in the coming national gabfest amongst our so called best and brightest. I wonder if Mr Daicopoulos or others of comparable practical experience and rationality will get a hearing. Perhaps not; probably just the same old interest groups banging on about the same tired old ideological arguments.

Prove me wrong, please, Mr Rudd.
Posted by Nickisname, Monday, 4 February 2008 3:11:05 PM
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I take it the author is saying that there is not enough pay available to make it worth doing an Honours Degree before undertaking a teachers' training course, that the bureaucrats of education are idiots and make life too difficult for teachers to get back into teaching if they have left teaching for a while, and the physics syllabus in our secondary schools is rubbish in respect of learning what physics, or any other science, is all about. Took a lot words to say it though. I agree with the author. The worst problem with our education system in Australia is that it is now run by "educationalists" and they don't have a clue.They can't even write clear, simple and grammatical English.

After thirty years as scientist and still with a good few years under my belt, I offered my services to the local State Education system as a potential teacher of physics, maths, chemistry and biology. I thought three degrees would have been enough. No, I had to do a three year course in teacher-training. Six months training in sorting out the psychology of youth so that I could control a classroom would have been ok, but three years? No way. I was taught in the UK by people whose degrees or second degrees in the subject they taught were the first thing that mattered. How times have changed.

And no wonder Australian kids are growning up illiterate and innumerate and with no knowledge of history, no second language and no idea of science. And it is no surprise that Asian immigrants do a lot better than Australians.
Posted by HenryVIII, Monday, 4 February 2008 4:07:23 PM
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Oh dear me! Surely people by now have grasped the idea that actually knowing Physics or Maths is not important for teaching those subjects. How silly. What is required is 3 years, preferably 4 years learning edudribble in 'Education' faculties. That is the truth of the depth that we have sunk to.
The problems in Maths and numerical science are manifold. Science up to the end of year 10 is non numerate, syllabi in years 11/12 are vague. Maths up to the end of year 10 is feeble and performance by the better third of the students is scandalously weak, algebra is feeble. Assessment systems are a combination of hand waving and voodoo, assessments are more a test of English than Maths or Science, many students, in some places a majority, are taught maths by people who cannot do the subject themselves, Physics is taught by people who are Biologists - a very different discipline. Etc, etc. But above all there are the twin education evils that have created this disgrace: to whit 'Education' faculties and the Boards of Study.
Will the Rudd revolution/talk fest do any good? No. The participants will be the edudribblers who created the mess. They are psychologically and intellectually incapable of making any improvements. Just ask yourself, will the author of this article be invited?
Posted by eyejaw, Monday, 4 February 2008 5:05:12 PM
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Edudribble-a nice word. My wife, an Asian immigrant, has just started a university course. She has just learnt that some of her fellow AUSTRALIAN students, whose first language is supposed to be English, do not understand the meaning of the word "plural" when it is used to describe a noun, as,of course, opposed to the singular version of the noun. English grammar is no longer taught in Australian schools, which, among other reasons, is why we have edudribble from our "educationalists" and, at best, bad English written by our younger scientists (I've seen enough of it). Well, we are a third world economy with a quarry industry as our economic base, so who needs educated children?
Posted by HenryVIII, Monday, 4 February 2008 11:33:04 PM
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A well written piece and unfortunately true. The poor state of the Australian education system is something that needs addressing immediately. Not so long ago when I was at university, I recall meeting a group of would-be teachers (studying B Eds) and one was proud to announce that he would likely be teaching Secondary English, a subject he himself failed when at Secondary School. I hoped this was not true. I always thought I would like to teach but, not unlike the author, have struggled to find positive reasons in support of such. The pay is lousy, the entrance scores required for B Ed studies at many Australian universities is so low it is arguable that applicants need not have attended grades 11 and 12 to be eligible and the respect for teachers generally is minimal. When did Australian society lose focus on education? More importantly, when or how will we get it back? How does a 3/4 year degree on 'teaching' better equip a person to teach than two or more subject-matter degrees and possibly some industry or other academic experience?
Posted by redabroad, Tuesday, 5 February 2008 12:55:28 AM
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like every ozzie political discussion, this begins with dissatisfaction, and ends with "the gummint should do sumpin".

if oz had citizen initiative, the people could do 'sumpin'. since they are the ones who are unhappy, they've got the necessary motivation. bureaucrats do not.

but to get citizen initiative, you've got to have citizens. ozzies are subjects, a different thing. oz schools play a big role here. but more important is the british culture oz inherited. politics here is for 'them', the inheritors of the parliament where the upper class ran the nation. so no belief that ordinary people should get to vote for policies, laws, or administrators, through referenda, and direct elections. nope, ozzies are too ignorant to be trusted with important decisions.

well, the result is what you see, what you complain about endlessly and rightly. but get off your bums and organize for democracy, or learn to enjoy being herded, fleeced, and butchered.
Posted by DEMOS, Tuesday, 5 February 2008 7:13:36 AM
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