Likewise Shadow, I’m enjoying this – it sharpens the mind. Someone else got in between our last two exchanges. Jolanda: go away – go back and annoy Maralyn instead!

I don’t think Australian private school data is separately identified in PISA, which seems a bit silly. The problem is creates it that we are left with the type of “similar schooling system” analysis which you have apparently done....and we are left hoping that it is valid.

I suspect the authors of PISA wouldn’t support your conclusion about an apparent small private school advantage in Australia – but they would also be speculating. They have a huge problem categorizing schools and our “private” schools don’t resemble anything I have seen overseas. The SES profile of our private school enrolment, compared with integrated (former private) schools in NZ, for example, is quite different.

It is this different SES profile, created by school fees (a wonderful discriminator) and public funding, which is creating a social class division between schools. A common solution is integration, something which probably won’t happen……. but for more complex reasons than you suggest.

I think the impact of stripping schools of their achievers is more than just philosophical. PISA points to inclusive systems as delivering better results overall and certainly better at reducing the equity gaps.

This is not some wooly-minded socialist concern – productive and successful economies are those which raise the bottom up, not those which increase the gaps. Even the former Oz govt was concerned about raising the bottom, but they weren’t prepared to take the more difficult decisions to achieve this….neither will Rudd.

The other thing that PISA (and other research) points to is that keeping achievers amongst their peers doesn’t amount to clipping the wings of eagles. It is middle class anxiety (the point of the Cannold/Caro article), not evidence about student achievement, which separates the eagles from the apparently ugly ducklings. Ugly ducklings grow can grow into beautiful swans, especially if they have role models. I know I have mixed the species……something the anxious middle class is keen to avoid

Bunyip,

As a libertarian, my preference will always be on the rights of the individual which is why I don't support compulsory voting, or the repressive new anti terrorism laws. Enforced integration goes against the grain in many more ways than just the test scores.

Independent schooling gives parents the choice to advance their children. Removing this choice fundementally damages our society and I would suspect any gov proposing this would be savaged at the polls by the 40% odd that take this route.

Raising the bottom up does not necessarily have to harm the high flyers. Tayloring education to needs of the child would equip the children for a successful career. Vocational separation early on could better use the last couple of years spent on preparation for university for those that will never consider it.

The concept of technical schools that can spit out tradesmen in year 12 is well worth following as there is a desperate shortage, and most of the tradesmen I know earn more than the professors I know.

It is also well known that keeping bright children to same pace as the average can well cause behavioral and other long term damage. The extension classes and selective schools are the gov solution to this. I think that they still have a long way to go. The one size fits all approach is obsolete.

The ugly ducklings can become swans but the eagle chicks never can.

I must sign off as I will be on leave for a week. I hope to resume our sparring on my return.

Shadowminister
I would agree that the PISA results are not indicative of much.

The country at the top of the list is Finland, and it has a 5% difference in marks between all schools, regardless of the socioeconomic backgrounds of the students.

With 15 year old students in Australia, boys marks are gradually declining, while girls marks have hardly improved in 30 years. But to “spit” boys out of the education system into trade work is not an answer.

I believe Australia does not have a shortage of tradesmen, but has a problem with so many men leaving their trade. Very often they leave their trade for good reasons, and spitting boys into trade work will not overcome the problems in trade work.

Competition between companies normally improves performance of all companies, and increased competition between schools and between teachers would most likely improve school results also. Teachers may even develop an interest in boy’s marks.