like I said Sage - half baked historians like your self come out of the wood work like cock roaches on a dark night with selected snippetts of information designed to denigrate - Islam is the whipping boy of the moment

The writer, who's heart seems in the right place, fails to accept responsibility for the teachings she follows.

Wife beating, among other things, is permissable in Islam, and has been used by misoginists to keep women down. Surely, when you look at the rights of women in the west, you see this?

But don't hate me for pointing out uncomfortable truths, hate those who force such dogma on you women.

It is the women in Islam with the open-mindedness, and they that need to bring Islam into the 21st century.

If you don't own up to this responsibility I fear that there will be major problems in Islam's survival.

For any philosophy that won't question itself is a doomed philosophy.

Sneekepeete claims Islam is the whipping boy of our day. Hard to know what you measure that by, certainly isn't indiscriminate murder of people through acts of terrorism is it....

Let Muslim women speak for themselves, hey?

We westerners are fine with that, but will your IMAM's and Mufti's let you?

One must also point out that any males that can cover women up by shaming them into believeing they are whores if they don't (and don't act like that isn't the reality, I know ex-Muslims who were brought up to think Aussie women are sluts, by default of wearing such a costume you believe you are purer than one who doesn't) and have women talking as if they are free have got some tricks up their sleeves!

Clasic case of "West meets East" but wouldn't it be nice if we could all meet in the middle and particularly if we could dump all this religious nonsense. On the Western side, we have bred a couple of generations where the only purpose in life seems to be chasing the almighty dollar to keep their designer kids happy. Mum has her SUV to transport their average looking kids to school, kids who look anything other than average after school hours with the girls wearing ridiculously short skirts, their podgy little tummies hanging out over the top, silly little tops, meant I suppose, to accentuate their near non existant breasts since they are after all, only 10 to 14. The boys are no better as they fail miserably to emulate their chosen soap star idols by wearing the most stupidly oversized shorts, or should I say long pants that were made for a fat kid with very short legs, American base ball cap turned backwards. They're so silly, they don't know which way is correct anyhow and all displaying "attitude" gleaned from an expensive American gangstar rap (crap) film clip. On the other side we have Muslim women getting about in burqas and dresses designed more for keeping out the desert sun and sands than for our Aussie climate of sunshine and green urban landscapes. Their men sport long flowing beards and occasionally long dress like creations as well as the women, yet all in all, the Muslim children appear as "middle ground" as you can get. Western people are stuck in the mindset of American soap operas, while Muslims are stuck in the centuries not long after Christ. Wouldn't it be nice if our two cultures could ease a little from both directions and meet in the middle.

You are right Rayann: Let Muslim women speak for themselves. That's why I appreciate this video that shows Arab-American Psychologist Wafa Sultan on Al Jazeera:

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

I can also recommend this Guardian-article by Houzan Mahmoud. She is a London-based activist with the Organisations of Women's Freedom in Iraq. Born in Iraqi Kurdistan in 1973, Mahmoud came to the UK in 1996. For the article, please go to http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/houzan_mahmoud/2006/10/wearing_the_veil_has_never_bee.html

I can also recommend the book 'The Trouble with Islam' by Irshad Manji, a Muslim woman who defends the right to be critical of her own religion.

I fully agree with you that a woman has the right to choose for herself if she does or does not want to wear the veil. The problem is that I don't know what to believe if a woman says she wears the veil out of her own free will. If her father, bothers, mother, family and friends all say she should wear the veil, I do not know how much value I can attach to the words 'It's my own free choice'.

And finally, please allow me to quote one Muslim man, Psychiatrist and writer Dr. Tanveer Ahmed, as quoted in The Australian, 28 Oct 2006:

'Dr Ahmed rejects the argument that women wear the veil because "it's their choice". "You see children aged five wearing it. Are we seriously arguing there is an element of choice, when you sexualise a child in that way?"

Madam, perhaps you should go talk to your fellow Muslims and not waste time with us stupid infidels. They need to learn tolerance more than we do. From their talk and actions, they are the ones that believe that clothes shape the identity - and that not wearing a blanket makes a woman eligible for rape.

Or perhaps you could consider the fact that by wearing the hajib, you contribute to this loathsome mentality, and to the actions of male Muslims. Try that thought on and see if it fits.

I support your right to wear a hajib, a Burka or even a mini-skirt. I also support free speech and human rights. Too bad Muslims don't. They always want to subjugate non-Muslims. That, of course, is what your dear prophet told Muslims to do, isn't it?

The fact that you wear the hajib shows that you take Islamic ideology seriously. So then tell me if the hate and anger in the Quran bother you? Tell me if the vile deeds of your prophet cause any hesitation when you 'PHUM' him? Does barberic torture like this (read verse 261) trouble you.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html

Please give me you views on these things. What DO you say when people ask if Islam permits wife beating? Do you tell them that your prophet beat his 9 year old wife?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html#004.2127

Do you believe that women are deficient in religion and intelligence, as your dear prophet said? Are they worth half the value of men?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/006.sbt.html#001.006.301

These questions are, as you say, a chance for Muslims to clear up 'misconceptions'. So please let me know your feelings about these three passages linkled above.

John Arthur Kactuz

PS: I enjoy hearing Muslim explain away Mohammed beating Aaisha. My favorite excuse so far was here, in which a Muslim basically said "He hit her but did not beat her; he caused her pain but it did not hurt".
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/paul_hamilos/2006/06/post_126.html

How can you reason with people like this?

Also note how well Muslims understand (not!) both their own scriptures and Western ideals:
http://www.donaldsensing.com/index.php/2006/10/04/1243/

WOW.. Sneeky is hunting me down even when I haven't been in this thread :) I better join.

All religous garb, symbolizes difference. It also symbolizes the history of the particular tradition of that faith.
The habits of Nuns in the RC tradition has symbolic effect. Reminding those outside the Catholic faith of the Inquisition, and the English of a 'rebellious mob of Irish' or the historical wars between Cromwell and the Royalists, and the various attempts to Catholicize or Anglicanize England etc.. Dog collars on Anglicans just seem weird to me.. the whole idea of 'religious' clothing is more suggetive of the human desire for membership in an organization than of personal piety to me.

The Biblical picture is unambigious, though it refers primarily to general vanity.

Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided_ hair and the wearing of gold_jewelry and fine_clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit..." ~1 Peter 3:3-5

This surely applies to all areas of life. You can wear a hijab, a burkah, a habit or a name tag saying "Elder SoandSo".. but what matters is the innner beauty, love for God and compassionate spirit.
The Jews who ran the opium trade in China wore their Hamulka's 'religiously'....
Islamic dress symbolizes Mohammed's various acts of invasion, torture and political assassination, and the 'if they insult the prophet killll them' mentality which we saw during the cartoon thing.

Let our faith be known by our love, our community spirit, and our faithfulness to that which is good ! Let our actions be heard rather than our clothing speak.

I know...I Know... "but ur so HARSH on poor innocent refugees" etc...
Actually.. I'm passionate about good policy, and no matter what we come up with.. SOMEone will have their nose out of joint, mostly the legal aid funded lawyers :)

Soooo..
Jews
Catholics
Anglicans
Muslims
Kalathumpians...

Lose the outward, and focus on the inward.