Well said, Antony. It's about time the pragmatic view was put that, however unjustified and repugnant the terrorists' (on either side) actions may be, however morally outraged the Israelis or Palestinians may feel, this kind of violent action is only going to prolong the pain for all concerned.

It's time for a practical approach to solving the problem of eye-fo-an-eye violence, for which both sides claim moral justification (GW Bush has a conveniently short memory and should shut up). In truth, there is perfect moral equivalence between the actions of the two sides: they are both completely unacceptible!

BUT: how to do it in a climate of intergenerational fear and hate? That problem is bigger than I. Suggestions?

I saw enough of this character on "Lateline" where he was made to look like a squealing schoolboy by Ted Lapkin, a man who really knows what he is talking about.

It would almost make a really good Jewish joke if it were not so sad. A people subject to years of progroms and victimisation, respond to a failed act of genocide by plonking themselves down on the lands of people who played no part in their suffering. They then proceed to act in a manner that guarantees that they will never enjoy the fruits of peace.

Very few victims of the holocaust were zionists and most would be appalled at what is being done and justified in their memory.

Israel has complied with ‘Geneva Convention 1949’, Additional Protocol 1 (1977) http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/disp.pl/au/other/dfat/treaties/1991/29.html?query=^%20geneva%20convention:

Israel having established lawful cause to commence hostilities, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war], being the cross border incursion, firing on Israeli troops and cross border bombardment of civilian areas, has every right to proclaim, as it has, it’s intention to disarm & destroy Hizbollah. That being so, the necessary proportionality for this purpose is defined as being not excessive to the military advantage to be gained by attacking the legitimate targets [Art.51(5)(b)].

Israel however has made use of all reasonable avenues by which to advise civilians within potential target areas of their areas status [Art.57(2)(a)(i)] and by doing so have reasonably attempted to comply with the protocol [Art.57(2)(a)(i)-(iii)]. The choice of targets, including civilian infrastructure, roads, electricity plants and even strategically placed villages and houses, which offer legitimate ‘military advantage’ to their opponent’s, are legitimate targets [Art.52(2)].

However, neither Hizbollah nor HAMAS have made any reasonable attempt to ensure that they target purely military targets [Art.51(4)(a)] and/or use weapons which are incapable of distinguishing between Military & Civilian Targets [Art.51(4)(a)-(c)]. Combatant’s from each rely upon perfidy, being the false adoption of civilian status, in order to safeguard their assets from direct attack [Art.37(1)(c)], the effect of which is to ensure that Israel has no option but to make strikes within otherwise civilian areas [Art.51(5)(b)], which action by the Hizbollah & HAMAS is prohibited [Art.51(7)].

Neither Hizbollah/HAMAS have made any reasonable attempt to comply with the requirements of this protocol with regard to the prisoner of war status of the three captives, who being defined as combatants [Art.43(2)] do not lose this status despite the method of capture [Art.44(5)]. It is fallacious to compare these captives, defined as combatant’s to those captured by Israel, acting as combatant’s without being able to be so defined (Perfidy) [Art’s.44(3)-(4) & 37(1)(c)], who are disentitled to rely on this protocol [Art.44(4)].

Factual inaccuracies again Mr Loewenstein? Perhaps you should edit your book and remove any reference to breaches of ‘actual’ International Law, hmmmm?

Inshallah

2bob

Well said 2bob!

You do not go to war half-hearted. War is hell and there is are two speeds - all-out and loose. The targetting of roads, bridges, airfields etc will severly ristrict Hezbollahs ability to resupply its state sponsored terrorists with munitions and rockets used indiscriminately against Isreal's civilian population.

Further to your excellent points is Lebanon's failure to implement UN Security Council Resolution 1559, which demanded that the government disarm Hezbullah and deploy the Lebanese army in southern Lebanon in its stead.

Also to my suprise is the Hezbollah demand that all Lebanese nationals be "traded" or released from Isreali gaols. Israel currently has only ONE such prisoner. Samir Kuntar, who is serving multiple life sentences for having infiltrated into Israel, entered a house in Nahariya, killed the owner and his four-year-old daughter in cold blood, and then killed a policeman before being captured. That, incidentally, was in 1979 - three years before Israel invaded Lebanon and began its 18-year occupation of the country's south.

Such is the mentality of the terrorists.

Have a look at www.fromisraeltolebanon.org
and then tell us again about the self defense theories.

Yes commonsense - terrible isn't it. Hezbollah has a lot to answer for!

Want to know why this is happening? Because Isreal is getting rocketed by Hezbollah, and it has been pushed too far. Israel has stated it will stop when 1) rocket fire from Lebanon directed at Israel stops, and 2)The two Kidnapped soldiers held for ranson are safely returned.

Not really much that Lebanon has to organise, is it?

i take the view that israel is a rogue state, founded by violent invasion of palestine, and surviving by violent repression of those dispossed people who want to get their land back.

the situation is similar to the white supremacist regime that used to be the master of south africa. for many years this racist gang was recognized by the usa and european countries, and by the zionist regime in israel, who supported the racists long after the 'civilized' nations had distanced themselves.

but finally the world could no longer stomach the south african government, and a secular parliamentary gonernment was established in which black and white south africans had equal political rights. nelson mandela got his nobel prize for leading the black majority to power without violence or reprisals.

this is the solution to the suppurating sore of palestine, a simple solution based on justice. the un must declare the state of israel to be illegal, and oversee the creation of a secular state of palestine, where citizens have equal rights, where jews, moslems and christians can practise their religion freely, but no group has a special position in society.

I think that the website that you mean is at:

http://fromisraeltolebanon.info/

And I do struggle to understand your point, unless you make an oblique reference to the effect on impressionable young children of being forced to live in bomb shelters in order to avoid being killed? What would you prefer, that they threw rocks at Hizbollah? Not really a good idea, Hizbollah does not respect the rules of warfare (see my previous post)

Quite frankly, have you examined the fact that if Israel did not respond those kids would look like the poor b*stards in the second half of the article? Hizbollah supposedly wanted only the withdrawal of Israel from Lebanon, which according to the UN was completely achieved [http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2000/20000618.sc6878.doc.html]. That being so, why did they make an armed incursion into Israeli territory (According to the UN: [http://www.10452lccc.com/eliasenglish/elias.Salloukh 3.9.05.htm]) and bombard Israel?

Civilian casualties are always bad, but why on earth would anyone start a war having achieved all of their stated aims? Or do you suggest that Israel should concede whatever is sought every time terrorists move their arbitrary goalposts? If Lebanon wishes to be left in peace, it should comply with International Law and leave their neighbours in peace… They also had to ensure that the Lebanese Army controlled the Southern Region, which has not been accomplished, and are in violation of UN 425 (see UN report).

An old saying here is apt…

They made their bed (by voting for Hizbollah) now they must lie in it.

Quite frankly, many non-shia Lebanese (the majority) have no problem, provided they are left alone too many have suffered at the hands of Hizbollah (the only side that is armed) and their master Syria. Perhaps now is the time for the International community to side with them, and end the de facto Syrian occupation, carried out by their proxies, Hizbollah.

PS For those that wish to find out the meaning of proportionality in the context of war, this is a helpful guide:

http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/legit-military-target.html

It is proportionate to the military objective to be achieved, not the attack it responds to.

Inshallah

2bob

2bob, Leigh and others fail to understand the simplest point here. The Lebanon and her government did not attack Israel and to blow up the airports, roads, electricity and all other infrastructure is a war crime.

Is the infrastructure of Israel blown up? You guys have absolutely no sense of balance and to glorify Ted Lapkin is an absurdity. He is still living out the days of poor little Israel being victimised by the world when she is not. Most of the world is bending over backwards incase they have to have the Israelis (actually to be correct - the Jews) living in their backyard.

Just imagine if Japan occupied Sydney or some suburbs of Sydney and drove out the rightful owners and citizens then brought thousands or millions of Japanese to build illegal dwellings on the land, build a huge wall around it and kill any Sydney siders who dare to intrude or argue to get their land back.

That is precisely what the Israeli government under Sharon did. They brought people from all over the world to build illegal homes on the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights as a buffer for themselves and now refuse to leave. Why? It is not the land agreed on by the UN in 1948, it is stolen land and Palestinians are the main sufferers.

You have no imaginations at all. As Paul McGeough said to Fran Kelly yesterday on Radio National when asked about Australian's being evacuated "my thoughts always in these situations if for the people who cannot leave, the citizens of these places".

Name one thing the Lebanese people did to deserve to have their country blown back to the stone ages.

Come on, time to put up or shut up with this one.

Part One

Going by the about even reactions for and against the Israeli attack on Lebanon it looks like some other method must be used to solve the situation.

Firstly, as any tutorial historian knows it is not the first time that such has happened through history

As one who in his retirement has done a deep study of the philosophy of Western history. with honours in political science and international relations, one is reminded so much of Immanuel Kant the great German liberal Christian as well as the famous philosopher.

The story of Kant was so much expressed by Konrad Adenauer, first Chancellor of post WW2 Germany, who supported so much the formation of the United Nations.

Kant, a supporter of the Enlightenment as well as the object of the French Revolution, became disgusted with Napoleon, the 23 year old general who though virtually carrying the banner of liberty-equality and fraternity as he conquered most of Europe, became so carried away that he declared himself emperor.

It was when Kant declared - “that from now on, not one man nor even one nation can be trusted to rule this world.” Kant then suggested the formation of a Federation of Nations as global watchkeepers, from which of course grew the post WW1 League of Nations, and later the United Nations.

Now with all due respects to our now unipolar United States, after all it is run virtually by one personage and other under-personages who also unfortunately have their own mercenary ambitions, as for instance Dick Cheney, who was or still is a top oil executive, Condoleeza Rice was or still is an oil executive, and George W Bush, the US President, also previously had a mixed career, rumoured also in oil.

But all the haggling over whether all of this is justified or not misses the point. You can argue over the rights and wrongs as far back as you like, you can haggle over whether technical points of international law make the morally-driven actions correct or not, what is proportionally appropriate and so on, but that ignores the more fundamental point:

A VIOLENT RESPONSE IS DUMB. Whether it's morally justified and/or technically legal or not, it's well known to be counter-productive.

Responding to violence with violence has NEVER deterred violence. Ghandi and Nelson Mandela have shown that there is a non-violent way to peace, and it starts with letting go of the arguments over who's right or who's wrong. It starts with agreeing to END the violence - unilaterally if necessary - and finding a mutually satisfactory solution to the fundamental problems of poverty and discrimination.

Violent actions will never solve the problems of Palestine/Israel, but there will be plenty of suffering while violent responses continue.

Part Two

No need to say any more about the present White House staff, but except to mention that from what one who has read of Immanuel Kant, he would really point out that such mercenary dual interests, would certainly rule out the US as fit to command his Federation of Nations.

In fact, it seem that the US in the Middle-East, has visions of a type of colonial-type Indian Dyarky or ersatz democracy, with US nuclear projectiles protecting the system as far away as America. Of course, there is also the Green Zone, or future US Embassy, said to be the ultra modern equivalent of the largest of Crusader castles.

In short, the Middle East problems need Kant’s Federation of Nations principle more than any global political problem before it. But the problem has been of course, that the US like the Soviet Union never believed in a United or Federation of Nations. Thus came the annoying veto which has recently been used by America to block any UN diplomacy concerning Israel’s incursion into Lebanon.

So it all depends now on who is calling the tune, and because unipolar America has now openly replaced the UN as the dinkum global voice, Israel is free to do pretty well as she likes.

It is so interesting that the above interpretation can be talked about in the Murdoch School of Humanities, but never much out in the street, and even among many of our onliners Murdoch could be called a mob of fruitcakes or bleeding hearts. Certainly the situation calls for much more commonsense

demos,

There is only one problem with your view. It stems from the old adage that "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", and another "The friend of my enemy is my enemy".

The terrorist groups Israel is fighting are the same that have already killed more than 150 Australians in New York, Bali, etc., and who would like to kill a lot more. Remember that this has nothing to do with Iraq, as these killings occurred before 2003.

The incident of the danish cartoons demonstrated more than anything else that hatred of western culture is widespread over many muslim countries, and that Hamas truly represents the will of the palestinian people. We truly face another major religious or cultural war.

The moral problem of the palestinian refugees is best compared to a similar one that existed in germany after ww2, when over four million ethnic germans were expelled from eastern europe. In the german case the refugees were either incorporated into german society or helped to migrate to other countries, including Australia. All the camps were closed by 1955.

In comparison, the arabs, despite coming into amounts of money unknown in previous world history, kept the palestinians in misery and hopelessness in their ghettos, because it served the arab interest.

The upshot of all of the above is that, from an Australian viewpoint, Israel is our ally, and palestine, iran, hezbollah and hamas are the enemy. It is also very interesting to note the very muted criticism of Israel this time, particularly from the surrounding arab countries. They don't want the persians in the middle east any more than the west does.

Israel is not just fighting Lebanese Hizb'Allah to disarm them they are also confronting hundreds of Iranian troops.

"Israel is not just fighting Hezbollah in Lebanon; hundreds of Iranian Revolutionary Guard troops (the “Al-Quds Force”) are on the ground there as well, according to an Arab diplomatic source in Washington. It was a contingent of these troops that was responsible for the radar-guided C-802 missile that targeted the Israeli warship off the coast. Four Israeli seamen were lost in that attack.

"This was a direct message to the Israelis that we are fighting the Iranians here," said the Arab diplomatic spokesman.

Hezbollah’s continued support comes from arms shipments being funneled into Lebanon through a well-established base in Syria. According to intelligence reports, "The order to increase assistance" is "directly from Tehran with the approval of the bureau of the leader Khamenei," the official said. "The assistance mainly includes a large amount of weapons as well as ammunition, cash, and field rations." This kind of assistance from their Iranian backers could lengthen Hezbollah’s fight against Israel. According to one source, Iran has also sent FL-10 naval missiles, additional Katyusha rockets and Fair-3 and Fair-5 missiles."

A small query to those who claim that land in the middle east was stolen from the palestinians. If any evidence could be presented that the ancestors of the palestinians came from Africa to the area when it was unpopulated, and remained there continuously until 1948, this claim might have some merit.

However I believe the evidence shows that the ancestors of the palestinians came to the area and stole the land from the previous owners. Could they have been jews?

@Marilyn Shepherd
"Just imagine if Japan occupied Sydney or some suburbs of Sydney and drove out the rightful owners and citizens then brought thousands or millions of Japanese to build illegal dwellings on the land, build a huge wall around it and kill any Sydney siders who dare to intrude or argue to get their land back"...

er, Marilyn, you don't have to resort to such hypotheticals, isn't that exactly what WE did to Aboriginals? Does Australia then have a right to exist?

If people thought the responses on these forums can get hysterical, check out pseudo-conservative Tim Blair's nausiating blog and some of the lunatics that post there.

Tim's infantile attempt to undermine Antony's credibility made me almost fall off my chair laughing. The comments on his post were dominated by hysterical fruitcakes complaining that Antony was ... wait for it ... a "self-hating Jew" (whatever that means)!

Still, I cop flack from Muslims for openly criticising the leadership of peak bodies and mosques. It's not easy going against the flow.

Hey Leigh, aren't you the same Leigh that puts xenophobic comments on the blogs of Tim Blair and Peter Faris?

According to DEMOS (21 July 2006 2:11:39 PM post), Israel is a "rogue state". But aren't those Middle East states that systematically oppress the female half of their populations just as "rogue"? As for violent invasion, I do trust that you are also putting Turkey into this "rogue state" category. After all the Turkish people are very much "Johnny-come-latelies" in Asia Minor.

And as for the UN declaring Israel illegal and this same body overseeing the creation of a "secular state of Palestine, where citizens have equal rights, where Jews, Moslems and Christians can practise their religion freely, but no group has a special position in society" - this is a joke, right? Exactly how much freedom of religious expression exists in any other Middle East countries? Do you have Iran or Saudi Arabia in mind as templates for your brave new secular Palestine? The Sudan perhaps?

Antony

You're an unashamed lefty so we'll never agree on everything but your article was superbly written.

As Irfy said its harder to write against the grain than to merely go with a nationalist/religious flow.

While I suspect that US support for Israel is being matched by Arab oil money supporting 'Palestine' in an equilibrium of death Israel has to learn to practice restraint.

If Isreal's current machinations are part of a strategy to preempt or "win" a future nuclear war with Iran (or other nuclearised Muslim force) then a withdrawal of Israelis from the Middle East may be preferable for humanity.

We can cope - the Israelis can bring their desalination plants/knowledge to Australia to help fix the water shortage.

Early Zionist discussion of settling the Jewish people in Australia may be a preferable course to Israel's very presence steadily moving the Middle East into a regional nuclear war.

Current ownerniship of land even "an idea" isn't worth megadeath.

Pete
("Spooky Pete" on your blog)

According to the terrifying "Journey into Darkness" by Winton Higgins there is a message from Australia on the wall of the holocaust museum.

It is only 13 words that should sicken us all "as we have no racial problem, we are not desirous of importing one". Evian 1938 re Jewish refugees

In a recent High Court decision it was found that Jews don't have to seek refugee protection in Israel. What is the significance of all that you ask? Well it's like this. A Russian Jewish family flew to Australia to seek asylum from persecution as refugees. They were found to be refugees in fact but denied protection because they could have gone to Israel.

The High Court overturned that decision by DIMA and that family are now permanent residents of Australia as refugees from persecution as Jews in Russia.

I know I will once again be abused for dragging refugees into one of these forums but I feel sure most will understand the blatant hypocrisy of Australia's position.

As Justice Kirby noted - the very reason for the existence of the refugee convention was because of the holocaust that had the west murdering 6 million or so Jews in the name of the Aryan nation and murdering the money lenders.

Instead of taking cheap shots at Antony, use brains for a time then read the words of Paul McGeough in today's SMH as he decribes the scale of destruction wrought on the Lebanese people.

By the way I just found out tonight I have a young Lebanese friend trapped in Beirut - I trust no-one would suggest that she should not be rescued and I wish some would understand the ironic position of Australian's having to be boat people escaping the murderous rampage of one of our great friends.

Marilyn

Your words bear repeating:

"I wish some would understand the ironic position of Australian's having to be boat people escaping the murderous rampage of one of our great friends (Israel)."

I have heard some terrible words on the middle eastern threads. Some posters claim that any means whatsoever is acceptable in defending their claim to territory. What this means of course, is that war will continue to be justified at the expense of innocent civilians on all sides.

All this pain and misery for the sake of oil (in most cases) and religion (the second coming in the case of christians and religious freedom in the case of Muslims and Jews).

The passionate and opposing views of posters here reveal just how impossible the situation in the M.E. has become. Until all sides can swallow their pride and sit down to negotiate and, yes, compromise; there is no sign of peace to come in any foreseeable future.

It is situations like this that convinces me that human beings are no more civilised than when cave men dragged off cave women as plunder.

Rather than post here, write to your local Fed member and call for peace. Initiate trade sanctions on ALL the middle east until these countries sit down and actually TALK to each other.

My parents did not talk much about WW2; though they did say that when resistance fighters struck against the Germans that the Germans would indiscriminately line up a group of innocent citizens and shoot them. Clearly a barbaric and immoral response.
The stakes in Lebanon have become greater with the infra structure of a country being blown out of existence with the shedding of much innocent blood.

The shock and awe associated with the Iraq incursion did not make Iraq a safer country. Likewise, the extreme intervention by Israel is likely to create a rallying point for their enemies.
Ambassador Bolton from the USA has stated at the United Nations that a cease fire is a simplistic solution in relation to the frightening circumstances in the Middle East. By implication that means that bombing the crap out of Lebanon is an intellectual solution.
It’s a solution that has not worked in Iraq.

Currently Israel is metaphorically lining up Lebanese and bombing them out of existence. While Hezbollah are seen to be terrorists at what point can Israel be seen to be a nation of terrorists. Even prior to this latest episode Israel was involved with breathtaking and callous deeds such as bulldozing Palestinian homes and orchards out of existence for strategic reasons. Clearly, Hamas and Hezbollah have committed horrendous acts against Israel and can be seen to be terrorists. But this does not give Israel the right to bomb Lebanon, putting nationals from other countries at risk.

Anthony,

"Proporionate"....good grief. I'm glad YOU have nothing to do with national defense (at least I sure hope you don't).

The level of ignorance you display concerning the history and complexity of the region, is only exceeded by the poverty of your solutions.

There is little point looking for 'moral' high ground in this whole saga, because underneath that identified moral high ground will be an equally immoral quicksand when judged by our naive and optimistic laws that are more pie in the sky than down2earth.

Can anyone show me a time, ANY time, when the political status quo of Israel/Palestine...call it what you will, was EVER.... EVER anything other than the result of a clash of political/military wills ?

You can go right back to the very day when Moses stood on the Jordanian side of the Jordan river, with the command from God,to 'GO in , possess the land' right down to this day.

So, reference to such quaint ideas as 'international law' may be hearwarming and fulfill out social need to 'be on the right side of the moral equation'....it does nothing to ultimately give a lasting solution and peace to the area.

I've outlined the ONLY method which EVER worked in that area,

DEFEAT
DEPORT
DISPERSE
ABSORB.

I've stated that this could be equally applied to Israel as much as the Palestinians. Interestingly this has happened to the Jews on a national scale 3 times. In each case it worked. (Assyrian/Babylonian/Roman) The ONLY times when this policy was reversed (Cyrus the Persian and the Zionist/British mandate) is when we have seen a return of the conflict.

I think Israel has finally tweaked at least in part to this historical reality. They are mentioning the Litani river, which is a natural border disecting Lebanon, as the destination to be imposed on the Shia population (ie..the HEZBOLLAH population) of South Lebanon.

GO FURTHER ISRAEL and include the Palestinian Muslims from all Camps in Gaza and WB.....

Bring in International Peace Keepers with TEETH to the buffer zone thus created.

Irfan,

Sorry to disappoint you, but NO, I am not the same Leigh who puts xenophobic comments on Tim Blair’s and Peter Faris’s blogs.

I have never seen these blogs, much less posted on them. The only other “Leigh” I know of is a pathetic left-winger like you who posts on Andrew Bolt.

But, what has all this to do with the subject? Is your particular hatred for me so consuming that you have to have a go at me no matter what?

You are a sad man, Irfan

Leigh

While I am sure Irfan can speak up for himself, thought you should know that Irfan is a spokesperson FOR the LIBERAL Party on Industrial Relations. Unless I have stepped into an alternative reality - the Libs remain very conservative/mostly christian and under the inauspicious leadership of J W Howard who is very RIGHT wing indeed.

But hey, Leigh, since when did you ever let facts get in the way of a good dissen'.

I rarely respond to your consistently negative posts, but couldn't let this one go.

On topic, bombing civilians in the name of religion/politics/power/land rights is and will continue to be WRONG, regardless of where anyone sits on the politcal fence.

Leigh get it through that skull of yours; it is not about left or right, it is about the human race becoming civilised and learning that disagreements are best settled by discussion and negotiation; violence is for bullies.

Scout,

Please don't tax yourself by 'responding'to my posts; it must be expensive enough paying someone to write your own for you.

I'm amazed that anyone should think that John Howard is conservative or right wing. He is a pinko compared with what is needed to sort out the current nonsense going on in Austalia.

Scout,

I take umbrage at your latest post, where you wrote:

‘On topic, bombing civilians in the name of religion/politics/power/land rights is and will continue to be WRONG, regardless of where anyone sits on the politcal fence [sic].’

So your position is that, Hizbollah, having co-opted the Lebanese political process to suit its own, and Syria/Iran’s positions with regard to Israel, in clear contradiction of the wishes of the majority of Lebanese, is a fait accompli, and as such is beyond the legitimate authority of anybody to alter?

So what if many Lebanese distrust/dislike Hizbollah, and its policy of picking fights for them, without any mandate to do so? Hizbollah represents part of the largest minority, but by no means represents the majority of the 6 million Lebanese, with another 1 million in the diaspora.

So far I have seen many, including Mr Loewenstein, spout the Hizbollah position, namely that Israel has not completely withdrawn from Lebanon, etc. with no attempt to examine the actual extent of Hizbollah’s support within & without Lebanon. Lebanon has neither the military might, nor even (in the majority) the wish, to challenge Israel. However, until Hizbollah can be disarmed, and many accept that this can only be achieved by Israel, the Lebanese are stuck in an externally inflicted savage and unwinnable war that they neither sought nor support:

http://10452lccc.com/

This current action, whilst harming many innocent Lebanese, will cause far less harm than a civil war, which Hizbollah has promised if the Lebanese themselves attempt to put 1559 into action.

So I take it you support not the greatest good for the greatest number, but the will of the minority over all? I challenge you to read the articles with an open mind, they are not all supportive of Israel, but are overwhelmingly condemnatory of Hizbollah, seeing the current crisis not as a tragedy, but as an opportunity to finally put the past behind them.

They do not wish for a ceasefire to save Hizbollah, so why do you?

You have posted twice, therefore, you have ~24h to research.

Inshallah

2bob

Boaz says,
“Can anyone show me a time, ANY time, when the political status quo of Israel/Palestine...call it what you will, was EVER.... EVER anything other than the result of a clash of political/military wills ? “

Yes, before the invasion, dislocation and murder of the people living where Israel now conducts its god war against reality. Israel has developed a very good propaganda war, to gain the false sympathy of the world.

Where's monotheistic compassion for the 4.5 million gypsies, 20+ million Russians destroyed by the Christian Nazi. This is about religious control, nothing else. Monotheists have no use for truth, compassion, love or understanding. They display typical symptoms of psychopathic behaviour, observed in their dealings with the world.

Note how they turn on each other when they've no one to suppress around them, that's why all societies coming under religious control end up as basket cases.

Definition of monotheists, a big blob of competing psychopathic masochists, overlorded by a bunch of psychopathic sadists. The end result is always violence and death, for all.

Psychopaths try to force upon you their unsustainable view of truth, using growing abuse supported by fantasy. When presented with undeniable facts, they disappear and try to create an illusion they believe in their warped unstable minds, will give them power over you. When they're caught out in their deception, they disappear with no reply. You see it all the time on OLO, provide them with truth and they disappear, hoping you'll forget it. In their infantile unevolved minds, they think this means they've won, deep down they know they haven't,. That's when they go to war against everyone including their own, first verbally, then physically.

The Middle East won't change until either Israel, or god is removed. Israel must expand, to cater for its growth. With competing monotheists, war is inevitable, as their history shows. They've been at war for more than 2000 years, nothing's changed, just dragged everyone else into their insane barbarity.

This useless god sure is a big problem for sanity.

Small wonder Israel is considered by the majority of the world to be more of a threat to regional and world peace than Iran or Korea.

David the idea that bombing civilians is morally OK is repugnant, no matter who's doing it. The observation's been made before - a bad man can do bad things, and sometimes good things. For a good man to do bad things requires religion.

What we are witnessing in Lebanon today is direct result of a non-existent Middle East policy in America. The US Ambassador to the UN, John Bolton, wrings his hands and pleads ‘who will we negotiate with?’ a tantamount admission that the US have finally lost any ability to influence events in the Middle East at any level.

They have no policy towards Iran with which they continually refuse to negotiate, the same applies with Syria as they dump them together with Iraq in President Bush’s ‘Axis of Evil’ rant now taken up by Prime Minister of Israel Olmert in Lebanon.

After insisting that the Palestinians go to the polls President Bush and his cohorts so misread the situation that when Hamas was returned, they didn’t know how to respond. They have no influence or standing with either Hamas or the Palestinian people.

And finally, though President Bush supported Lebanon in insisting that Syrian troops withdraw from the country he has lost what influence and goodwill he had established with Lebanon and the Lebanese by refusing to allow any resolution of a cease fire to go through the Security Council and was reduced to pleading with Israel to somehow conduct their self declared war while minimizing the political fallout on the Lebanese government!

It is extremely hard to recognize the USA today as a power of anything but its own imagination which it mistakes as a foreign policy.

Where one might accept Israel’s right to return its captured soldiers in Lebanon what one sees it doing there appears to absolutely ignore or further jeopardise their fate as Israel deliberately targets civilians and civilian infrastructure, a war crime under the Geneva Convention.

Prime Minister Olmert should be brought to justice for what he and his army, navy and air force are doing in Lebanon or at the very least Israel should face the same sanctions as Iraq did for its use of WMD against civilians but I’m not holding my breath as I watch Lebenese die and an impotent and incapable USA standing on the sidelines.

drooge

America does have a policy towards the Middle East (including Israel and Iran) but it just happens to be secret.

It is not public shuttle diplomacy - Kissinger, Clinton, Carter or Jesse Jackson saying nice things. Its the kind of realpolitik that is unpalatable to the public but advantageous for the Bush Administration.

It appears the main US policy at the moment is to build a case utilising Israel's offensive in Lebanon to "prove" that Iran is a threat to "world peace" and should therefore be bombed (by the US, Israel and maybe UK) in an upcoming "surprise" attack.

Israel may also goad Syria into action therefore permitting the US to "publicly prove" that Syria is also a peace threat.

The political benefits of the Middle East crisis to the Republicans (in the November 2006 "midterm" elections) and then bombing Iran (before the November 2008 Presidential elections) are obvious - in a crisis rally to those already in power.

Bush truely appreciates the political groundwork Israel is doing.

Bombing Iran will also meet the US/Israeli objective of postponing Iran's nuclear buildup which coincides with Australian interests in postponing Middle Eastern regional nuclear war.

Just because its not public doesn't mean it ain't there.

For more see http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com/2006/07/lebanon-israel-iran-and-us-policy.html

Pete

I am not the Liberal Party's spokesman on industrial relations. I am a private practitioner who practises mainly in industrial relations.

Leigh, if John Howard is a pinko leftie, you must be a Nazi.

Condi is finally going to the middle east with the message that Israel has the right to defend herself as a sovereign state. By that reckoning the US and Israel have the right to defend themselves but Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan don't.

Is that the sort of world we want to live in? White supremacy rules? Christianity rules? Sounds much like a 13th century crusade to me.

Watching the Lehrer news though on SBS it is clear that the US civilians are as cynical as the Australian civilians who heard the same crap rhetoric from the "leaders" about Iraq.

It's amazing though looking at the pictures from southern Beirut - Israel has turned it into Kabul in 10 short days.

And not one of the Armchair type either.

Jeez we agree again Irfan.

Tonight I have e-mailed all my local Representatives in the Federal sphere asking why they are not raging against the Israeli aggression in Lebanon.

I think we should all just quietly do that or similar.

Marilyn Shepherd asks: "Is that the sort of world we want to live in? White supremacy rules? Christianity rules? Sounds much like a 13th century crusade to me."

For your information Ms Shepherd most Israelis are Jews, not Christians, or haven't you twigged to that.

As for the TV pictures from southern Beirut, I wonder what pictures would look like from those areas in Darfur that have been devastated by the Arab militias backed by the Khartoum regime. Of course it wouldn't have been safe for Western TV crews or their hangers-on to have gone there at the height of the conflict, would it?

It always amazes me that those who bray about peace are never, ever concerned about what happens to non-whites in Africa. Especially when that violence is carried about by Islamic regimes.

Keith, if you look at my previous you will see this link:

http://10452lccc.com/

Read some of the articles on this site, and please tell me, and the rest of the forum, why Hizbollah should be saved by a ceasefire?

Inshallah

2bob

PS For the lebanese muslims shreiking that they would defend Lebanon with their blood, please organise your flights, I am sure many Australians will be prepared to chip in to enable you to do just that (how much can a 1 way trip to Syria cost). Put up or shut up time boys.

2bob,
I agree with your observations in your second last post.

Because we have a large lebanese community in Australia, we only hear of the terror happening in Lebanon. We have no vocal Jewish community with dual citizenship here in Australia. So we hear nothing of the terror caused to citizens in Northern Israel. I receive mail at least six times a week from Israel and much are pleas for protection of the children of Northern Israel. At least Israel gives 24 hours warning by a leaflet drop for people to leave the area, unlike Hizb'Allah who give no warnings.

22/7/06
There were 86 katyushas rockets that landed in Israel today (so-far) 4 of them in downtown Haifa, Israel’s third largest city and Israel largest Sea Port, with a population of around 270,000. We are told all the dangerous chemical that were located at the port has been moved elsewhere in case of a direct hit, but there are still many large fuel tanks and power plants that supplies much of the Galilee area. The majority of the population of Haifa and throughout the northern part of the country is spending most of their days and nights in bomb shelters with government agencies bringing them the needed food and water supplies.

Israel's sons and daughters move into Southern Lebanon tonight..."

Onya Keith for that 'balanced' raging. Did you also add in your letter a bit of a rage against militant Hezbollah firing over a 1000 rockets indiscriminantly at CIVILIAN CITIES ? in Israel ? duh....

The Israelies are indeed targeting anything they deem to be Hezbollah military related.

Lets look at some facts.

1/ Hezbollah hide rockets in civilian homes. (thus changing their status from 'civilian' to 'military'.)

2/ Hezbollah hide rockets in MOSQUES (changing their status from 'Holy Place' to Military Unholy place)

3/ Hezbollah is a STATE....(an Illegitimate one) all people under its political and military regime and who support it, are the same as those in Nazi Germany during WW2.

4/ Israel WITHDREW from Southern Lebanon, so WHY has Hezbollah been beefing up defences and OFFENSIVE capability for the past 6 yrs ?

5/ Is point4 possibly related to the clearly stated agenda of Hezbollah to form an ISLAMIC STATE which includes Israel ?

Sorry... all this 'raging against Israel' is most pathetic, biased, and unsound.

If anyone wishes to RAGE against someone, rage against THOSE WHO CAUSED the problem ...i.e. Hezbollah.

aah..but.. you say "Israel caused it"... how ? oh.. by keeping some territory gained during the ATTEMPTED INVASION of Israeli Territory by Syria.
Well.. stiff cheddar...thats life. Show me a border in Eurpose which is not a result of the same thing ?

ALCHEMIST.. what a load of bollocks.. you did not answer my question mate.
I said "show me where the political STATUS QUO...etc." i.e. if you unravel the history of Palestine, you will find layer after layer of the very thing happening now, there was only peace after one side WON against another.

WARN (added)
DEFEAT
DEPORT
DISPERSE
ABSORB !

Most important, powerful, artistic, high achieving jewish people live in Europe, or the US. Why is it so important to die for a few sq.km-s in the holy land? - which is becoming less and less holy. Stay alive and work for the betterment of all mankind

Leigh

Thank you for revealing that you are far to the right of J W Howard – now I know I can continue to ignore your posts as the rantings of an extremist.

Thank you also for acknowledging that my posts are of such merit as to be worth paying for.

BTW, such a shame you cannot grasp the irrelevance of right or left wing politics not only in the Middle East but in modern politics also.

Irfan, my apologies for misrepresenting you, I had found the information on the internet and believed that you were connected to the Liberal Party in some fashion.

Now, 2Bob

In spite of your arrogant demand, no such research is necessary for anyone to know that the crisis in the Middle East is beyond rational understanding and rationalising at any level. My point, which has escaped your powers of deduction, is that there is no further justification for the killing on both sides and this killing must cease.

Therefore, the time has come for talk, negotiation, compromise and, most difficult of all, the swallowing of pride.

These negotiations can only start with the laying down of arms – by all parties. Therefore, in order to achieve this I suggested trade sanctions across the entire Middle East, in order to force political leaders to the negotiating table.

I can only assume, by the tenor of your posts that you approve of the unremitting murder of civilians, under any circumstances. Could you explain, along with proof, how further violence in the Middle East will bring about peace? All that has been achieved thus far, has been tit for tat retaliation; an abysmal failure at best and mass murder of civilians at worst.

Your bloodthirsty stance on this issue reveals that you are a part of the problem rather than an activist for a solution

"WARN (added)
DEFEAT
DEPORT
DISPERSE
ABSORB! "

David what gives one country the right to utilize the sentiments you have suggested in the above headings.
Not that long ago we had a debate in Australia about pre-emptive strikes; Mr. Downer and his motley crew had to pull their heads in when Malaysia and Indonesian had some opposing views!!
You indicate you are a Christian; yet, hold very violent views. Where does the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" come into your assessment? Lebanon had not used violence against Israel; so what gives Israel the right to bomb the Lebanese to kingdom come?

While the Middle East has been a festering mess for years; this latest episode began with a few Israelis soldiers being held captive; now how many people from various nationalities have been either killed or mutilated as a result? Syria and Iran could very well be drawn into this conflict which would have a profound impact on the world economy.

When Mr. Bush marginalizes countries such as Iran, Syria, and North Korea by characterizing them as being in an axis of evil; then the expectation would be that they will take a defensive/offensive stance. Mr. Bush has failed as far as diplomacy is concerned; in the twenty first century gun boat diplomacy is not working.

NEWSFLASH

A positive development several hours ago:

"Britain last night dramatically broke ranks with George Bush over the Lebanon crisis, publicly criticising Israel's military tactics and urging the Americans to 'understand' the price being paid by ordinary Lebanese civilians.

The remarks, made in Beirut by the Foreign Office Minister, Kim Howells, were the first public criticism by Britain of Israel's military campaign, and placed it at odds with Washington's strong support.

The Observer can also reveal that Tony Blair voiced deep concern about the escalating violence during a private telephone conversation with the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, last week. ."

see http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1826969,00.html?gusrc=rss

Hopefully the rightwingers, Zionists and congenital anti Muslims in this string have been caught wrongfooted ;-)

Pete

Right bd you did say that. We wouldn't have this situation if Zionism didn't violently invade the area occupying it, then continuing to expand. This isn't a “clash of political/military wills”, but a religious war.

All your ilk, can't see beyond being right, so you advocate violence. Those unevolved, are incapable of seeing anything beyond themselves. I couldn't care less, whether jews, muslims or christians are killed, I care about this planet and the ethical life inhabiting it, not morons.

Your aware of history, but choose self interest to deny it, promoting the problems. I'm sure your second coming is upon us, as with the first, it will be accompanied by death, the backbone of monotheism. If we're lucky, our planet may be inhabitable after your psychopathic acts are over. If we're luckier, many of you may wake up to the despotic reality of god, those to blind to see, will throw themselves into the fiery fray and the world will be rid of your evil.

The veracity of your beliefs are fully borne out by your constant references to how loving and caring you are, yet are always prepared to kill for land and control, so you can be right irrelevant to the cost. Logic appears beyond your ilk, Hizzbollah didn't cause it, the belief in god caused it. Without god in the mix, there'd be no problem because people wouldn't need to be right, just acceptable and different.

Bd within 200 years, your belief's destroyed every indigenous culture, some more than 20000 years old, just to be right. If that's right, then we're beyond help. As god can only work through humans, we can but imagine the end it has in mind, with the example it provides in the ME.

It proves how insane you all are, turning the middle east into a desert bereft of life, because its gods land and you'll destroy it to get it. The true logic of a psychopathic mindset, not intellectually rational at all.

God's all about psychopathic control, through land and material gain at others expense, even followers.

Are there any gods? If there are, could we just be tokens, in a giant game of godly chess? Do they care any more for me, than I do for my knight, when I loose it?
Or, are we just the naughty pet of these gods, fighting despite their wishes?
Redicules? Of course, but no more so than what's happening in the middle east, or on this thread.
If you want to fight, make it something important, like my "right" to have a smoke down the pub.
I don't drink, or smoke.

Scout,

The position at the present time is that Hizbollah has been implicated in the killing and attempted assassination of numerous anti-Syrian Politician’s in Lebanon, have managed to convince the president of Lebanon to use a militia to patrol their potentially, and because of this actually, volatile border with Israel. Hizbollah stated openly on Lebanese television that ‘Lebanon has a war with Israel, whether they want it or not’. They have also threatened to unleash a civil war if the Lebanese Army attempts to disarm them, all the while Syria looks on, waiting only for the go-ahead to move in and restabilise Lebanon.

Have you in your unceasingly pro-ceasefire stance made any attempt to examine what dialogue with Hizbollah would mean to the region? It would raise Hizbollah to the position that they were higher than the Lebanese government, that is why so many, including Ibn Al Saud, have condemned their adventurism.

Did you even attempt to access this site (I know it is busy now):

http://10452lccc.com/

If so, you would have read these articles, stating the position of many Lebanese, that while not supporting the civilian casualties, fear a ceasefire with Hizbollah. Why, as a journalist, are these peoples voices not being heard? Here are some of their articles:

http://10452lccc.com/english06/officer21.7.06.htm

Boaz_David will like this one;

http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bin/na.cgi?nationalupdates/060720lebanon

I know it is a minor trash tabloid, eminently worthy of your disdain (Washington Post);

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008681

Please do read these, and instead of claiming that I am arrogant, actually answer the million dollar question, why precisely are these people being denied the opportunity to state their position in this country? Why are we continually bombarded with the suggestion that everything in the Middle East is rosy, other than Israel?

I have researched my viewpoint, and whilst I do not agree with actions that cause the deaths of civilians in most situations, it is an unfortunate necessity in others, ce le guerre.

However, your position is sustainable if only these Lebanese, are less deserving of your support than those represented by Hizbollah. If so, there really is nothing more to say.

Inshallah

2bob

Hey 2BOB...yep..I read some of those links.. (the ones still accessible.)

I hope Jumblatt and the Druze, combine with Amal (Sunni) and the Maronites and rid themselves of the serial pest Hassan Nasrallah for good.

Lets not forget, the truckload of money being used to fund their 'state within a state' and all their educational and social work along with the Military is from..... IRAN. (Thats my educated guess anyway)

I want to make a very strong point here..so I'm going to SHOUT it :)

1/ HEZBOLLAH ARE DELIBERATELY TARGETING CITIES FILLED WITH CIVILIANS !

They themselves HIDE AMONG civilians. So, there is lesser blame in terms of colateral damage, on the Israelis.

2/ HEZBOLLAH ARE BRAGGING ABOUT WEAPONS CAPABLE OF REACHING TEL AVIV.

err..this is 'defensive' ? get real people.. each month which goes by, will see increasingly sophisticated weaponry amassed in South Lebanon and IT SURE AINT DEFENSIVE. So.... a pre-emptive strike is not only 'justified' it is ABSOLUTELY NEEDED.
By the way, you don't need missiles capable of reaching Tel Aviv to defend.. you need a lottttt of anti tank missiles and ground to air missiles.

Bleeding heart for the old and infirm and children suffering ?
really ?

BLAME HEZBOLLAH ! Send them your rage.. your anger.. your wrath.. your threats.. (whoever is feeling that way) ask them WHYYYYY did they not follow UN Resolution 1559 ? (disarm)

SOLUTION. Send them ALL (Men women children) from ALL the villages of South Lebanon to Syria and even Iran.

WARN
DEFEAT
DEPORT
DISPERSE
ABSORB.

problem solved.

David

It seems your final solution is now extending to the people of South Lebanon.

So the scope is broadening. What about the methods are they to broaden in future also?

Martin is rolling about the floor of hell in rapture at your chosen path.

2bob

Are you really lining up with this imfamy?

Keith

Irfan,

You already think that I’m a Nazi, so what’s new? If it helps you think that, be my guest. So far, I haven’t been able to think of a name for you; you are one out of the box.

I presume your mini CV is for the benefit of Scout. He got that wrong too, it seems.

Keith,

It must be a disappointment for you that another poster got in between you and your new best mate. It took the shine off your ‘And not one of the armchair type either”.

Did you tell your federal representatives just why they should be “raging against the Israeli aggression in Lebanon”? They might be perplexed as to why they should say anything about a country with which they have few dealings and which is not in our region of influence or interests. They might also want to know why you want Israel chastised and not the Hezbollah terrorists who attacked Israel first and who are harboured by Lebanon.

The media is producing enough faux indignation against Israeli for everybody. The real villains are Islamic terrorists – the same sort of criminals Australia is fighting against. I don’t think your pleas to Canberra will have any effect, and you probably will not even get a response.

The Israeli government has a duty to protect its citizens and country. To suggest that outsiders should criticise them for doing this is insane

Did you all see the various news services tonight? The almost total destruction of the lives of 1 million people in Lebanon without cause? The tiny child who needs kidney medicine and cannot get to a hospital or the mum about to give birth in the desert as no buses come?

What about the children in the hospitals learning hate before they are 10, or the mass grave of 86 Lebanese people in Tyre because they can't wait to have the people identified. What about the destruction of the TV towers and phones. How does this add to anything at all?

Why do Israel have the right to get bunker buster bombs by the 100 rushed in by the US yet the weapons on display "arrested" by the Israeli's are a pathetic collection of small shoulder rockets? Why are the tanks allowed to demolish homes while people who have done nothing flee for their lives, while the Israelis bomb the buses?

Come on war mongers - what has been proved? Israeli children living in bunkers? Lebanese kids dead or maimed? Refugees in the almost 1 million range and Beirut turned into Kabul in a week?

Do you guys want to give thanks to the foreign correspondents who risk their lives to get the truth? I think we should bow down to them and their courage.

Australia sure have our fair share of them.

Leith, contrary to your dementia - Australia is dealing with a former Taliban warlord in Oruzgan - there is a pretty picture in the AGE today of them shaking hands.

Huh!! What a waste of lives and cities and towns and money and capital this ludicrously named "war on terror" has become.

Leigh

I don't think you're a Nazi and knowing a thing or two about national security issues I'm often in agreement with you on OLO.

This time I think you're wrong in supporting Israel's excessive use of force amounting to conventional terror. Israel has the right to use force against Hezbollah but not against the whole of Lebanon and cause mass evacuations of expatriates.

A minority in Lebanon support Hezbollah and make up Hezbollah, but Israel has used its excessive might to hold the whole country accountable and cripple the whole country. This is victor's justice.

Yes less than 50 Israelis have been killed - how many Lebanese woman and children have died who have no say?

You ask what interest Australians should have in this? Firstly thousand of Australian Lebanese (in Lebanon) are in fear for their lives from Israeli bombs. Secondly Australia has to decide whether it will follow its Master (the US) in continuing to back the Israeli push on Lebanon.

It appears that the ruling Labor Party in Britain has forced Blair to adopt a civilised conscience vote. This is a fundamental shift in "Coalition of the Willing’s" resolve on the Middle East - one plank WAS support Israel without question:

"Speaking to a BBC reporter before travelling on for talks in Israel, where he will also visit the missile-hit areas of Haifa and meet his Israeli opposite number, [British Foreign Office Minister] Howells said: 'The destruction of the infrastructure, the death of so many children and so many people: these have not been surgical strikes. If they are chasing Hizbollah, then go for Hizbollah. You don't go for the entire Lebanese nation." http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1826969,00.html?gusrc=rss

John Howard may have been aware of Britain's vacillation over Israeli excesses. So Howard has been pretty quiet. It will be interesting to see what Howard (or Downer) say in the next 24 hours - or perhaps say little and follow their Master.

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com

Israel has gone too far.
They claim they on a mission to save two soldiers who were allegedly kidnapped.
The reality is that Israel has clearly gone to war and has done so without notice and without regard for the sanctity of civilian life.
It is a shame to hear Lebanese leaders calling Israel a war-machine and having to consider, after all this time of believing them a valuable and civilized ally, that characterization may be correct.
Without warning Israel invaded Lebanon.
They stated at first that they did not do it and then later, when admitting the incursion, stated that they were only there for a little while – as if that makes a difference.
The level of violence they have visited on Lebanon is startling.
The impact of their aggression has sent waves of uncertainty through financial markets around the world. Business in Europe, the United States, Japan, China and as far away as Australia has been impacted negatively.
The Israeli Air Force attacked the civilian airport in Beirut and rendered it useless.
Peaceful business people from around the world are being forced to evacuate Lebanon.
Lebanese that had begun to return home to their war ravaged nation are being driven out by their neighbors, the Israelis.
It is a heroic effort to seek out the two soldiers who were heroically kidnapped. It is a cowardly act to destroy schools, hospitals, businesses and disrupt the lives of millions of people in order to get attention.


They have every right to defend themselves. They have no right to disrupt trade.

Questions :
What are the names of the soldiers alleged to have been kidnapped?
Where are their pictures?
Who is accused of kidnapping them?
What is the name of the group?
Who belongs to it?
What do they want?
Which rockets were allegedly imported from Iran?
Which rockets were allegedly imported from Syria?
If the rockets came from Iran or Syria who actually made them?
In what country were they made?
If the rockets came from Iran or Syria who sold them?

Keith,

To answer your question, as a Jew I have severe and almost visceral reaction against anything which is referred to as a final solution, for obvious historical reasons:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/21/AR2006072101363.html

However, do I believe that the majority of Lebanon’s Shia population would be better off elsewhere?

The Shia population of Lebanon, and particularly that of Southern Beirut, lives below well below the poverty line, predominantly in slums. This powerlessness has directly caused the growth of the Shiite revolutionary groups, the amalgamation of which is Hizbollah. It is interesting to note the contradiction between the relative freedom enjoyed by their coreligionists in Iran, whose citizens enjoy a degree of freedom unknown in the Islamic world, and which has amongst the highest literacy rate as well.

http://www.indexmundi.com/iran/literacy.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran

The characteristics of this group (the fact that it is the only militia to retain its arms) have enabled the Shia population to impose its will on the majority of the country, in the aftermath of the Syrian withdrawal. This withdrawal led to the Syrian support for Hizbollah. It is suggested that Hizbollah has been implicated in the assassination of anti-Syrian politicians, and generally destabilises Lebanon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Revolution

If Hizbollah is defeated, or significantly weakened, I suggest that the 1 million Lebanese Shia would be well advised to be anywhere but Lebanon. This is Lebanon, payback’s swift, sure, & final.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War

The Sunni minority should be okay, they are not identified with Hizbollah, and are strongly supported by the Saudi’s (the source of much of Lebanon’s investment), and the Palestinian’s are no longer a force, so I do not believe they would support the Shia:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/21/news/jihadists.php

The old SLA has 6,000 veterans living in Israel, who remain Lebanese citizens, who would return after Hizbollah:

http://www.themedialine.org/news/news_detail.asp?NewsID=14444
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Lebanon_Army

AKA Phalangists:

And the 2nd Lebanese diaspora has begun:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060722/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_flight_to_syria

However, Syria is overwhelmingly Sunni, and given their treatment of minorities and dissidents, it is unlikely they would welcome the influx of a large number of Shia, which leaves Iran, which has yet to offer more than clandestine military support.

Not my problem

Inshallah

2 bob

Marilyn Shepherd asks: "Did you all see the various news services tonight? The almost total destruction of the lives of 1 million people in Lebanon without cause?" [Post of 23 July 2006 8:02:27 PM]

Marilyn brays for peace but what did she do when the conflict in the Sudan was at its height? Where were the thousands of protesters out on the street then? Or is it only non-Negro lives that count?

I just dug the following words up from a BBC News report in February 2005.

"Nobody knows how many people have died during the two-year conflict in Sudan's western Darfur region.

But the widely quoted United Nations figure of 70,000 is clearly wrong, because it was based on a study that does not include those killed in the violence and just covers a six-month period.

The UN says that more than two million of the estimated six million population have fled their homes, but the organisation is reluctant to suggest how many might have died in total.

Some analysts are estimating that the true death toll could be four or five times higher than the 70,000 figure.

One significant problem in establishing a clear idea is that the Sudanese government and their allies, an Arab militia known as the Janjaweed, are blamed for most of the deaths, so the Khartoum authorities show little interest in encouraging any accurate assessment. Indeed they consistently underplay the scale of the crisis."

I'm not here to condone Israel's offensive in Lebanon which I consider to be a gross over-reaction to the kidnapping of two soldiers but why is Israel held up to a different, much higher standard than those countries - such as Sudan - which number amongst its mortal enemies. And where is the Muslim revulsion against the actions of a self-proclaimed Islamic regime?

2bob

The point you persist in missing, is that the middle east will continue to lurch from crisis to crisis as long as vengeful retaliation remains the modus operandi from all sides.

If it is not Hezbollah, it will be some other cause for retribution – by either ‘side’.

What is desperately needed is a definitive plan for peace. You don’t seem to be able to comprehend this. You demand I answer YOUR questions, you have as yet to answer mine. Which remains: how does continuing hostilities end war and achieve peace?

Quid pro quo.

And BTW, I checked your Canadian links some posts ago – doesn’t change my opinion one jot that Israel’s current invasion of Lebanon will not solve any of the problems in the Middle East. At best it will wipe out Hezbollah (which is unlikely) at the cost of thousands of innocent lives. Will it achieve peace? Of course not. The players in the middle east are trapped in a cycle of attack and counter-attack.

Look at the big picture, 2bob.

Pete,

Fair enough. You have every right to disagree with me on this and anything else. You are one of the ‘older’ hands who can put across a view without raising the ire of others. You probably see the irony of a “Nazi” siding with Israel.

But I am not at ease with your suggestion that a reason for Australia to be taking interest in the region is the thousands of Lebanese Australians in Lebanon.

For Australians of Lebanese background visiting relatives and holidaying, fair enough.

But we are advised that there are about 25,000 Lebanese with Australian passports who live in Lebanon full time. These are Australians of convenience who use their dual citizenship to slip back to Australia when it suits them. They abuse the nonsense of ‘dual citizenship’.

You might disagree with me on this too, but I do not think those schemers should have Australian citizenship, much less be ‘rescued’ from a country they obviously prefer to Australia unless the going gets tough. Many of them would have been granted asylum, in the first place, because they were in ‘peril’ in Lebanon.

I simply will not swallow that.

NEWSREPORT

Lebanese female at the Syrian border, fleeing the bombing says:

[Nancy 15 "I love Hezbollah. Everyone in Lebanon loves them."]

...and there you have it. The root of the problem. Or part of it.

Lets analyse.

"I love Hezbollah".... hmm ok.....

why ?

1/ Social programs ..education and health ? (so far so good)

2/ Religous programs .. "The world and all that is in it belongs to Allah and his apostle. OOOOPSSS....woah... wait a minute...

But..backtracking momentarily. Lets assume that its just point ONE. Social and Education.

Funded by.....who ? and......why ?

ANSWER:

Who ? = IRAN
Why ? = Pathalogical hatred for Israel and a determination to 'obliterate' them from the face of the earth, and replace all of them with Shia Muslim Arabs. PLUS.. grooming them to be their 'proxy' army. (why get your own people killed when you can easily trick another mob into getting killed for you)

So, when this Nancy, 15 yrs old and "innocent civilian" supports Hezbollah, she is in reality a TERRORIST who will be treated as such aNd THAT IS WHY her place was bombed in the Bekaa Valley.

WHY...does the Southern Bekaa valley which is a predominantly MARONITE area get 'hezbollah' signs and authority FORCED on them ? Did they choose it ? Hardly. Hezbollah are Tyrants.

SCOUT you asked a question (to all I presume)

"How does violence and war assist in producing peace".... ?

Simple. the same way carnage and war and destruction and death liberated FRANCE and EUROPE from the freaking Nazi's... or don't you 'get' that ? Were the defeated Nazis 'rejoicing' over this ?
Of course not. Did the Allied victory produce anything but 'lingering hate' in their minds ? No, of course not, they hate our guts.

As I've often said:

1/ THERE IS NO PEACE WHICH IS NOT THE RESULT OF A WAR.
2/ EVERY "PEACE" SOWS THE SEEDS OF THE NEXT WAR.

So, without meaning to shatter your romantic illusions about life and people. That...is how it is.

Five children and the cost of war
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/23/perry.tyre/index.html

for most people, politics is much the same as football- choose a side and back it, without regard to any principle save victory.

reading the posts on this site will convince most of my argument, without further discussion.

i believe the best hope for simple survival of the human race is the widespread attainment of actual democracy in society. if we leave the direction of national policy in the hands of a few individuals who are selected by the level of their arrogance and willingness to lie, cheat, and kill, only two outcomes are likely: ecological disaster, or world war.

unfortunately, democracy can only work when a large percentage of citizens examine the questions of public life with cool heads and informed minds. australia isn't there yet, and aside from (possibly)switzerland and sweden, nor is anyone else.

so democracy might save us, but we can't get there.

Hello Savage Pencil, seeing as you seem to think this is about me I will tell you where I have been over Darfur - with the rest of the peace movement trying desperately to get the racists of the three governments who could make a difference do something, anything.

I have had letters published pointing out for example that our aid to the people of Darfur was less than the cost of locking up one family of refugees for a year to help the millions who have been displaced.

I have lobbied pollies of all stripes in various ways and I don't care what colour people are and never have.

Now back to Israel. They have lot the war. And that is a very, very great tragedy for the people of Israel and Lebanon and a greater tragedy than ever for the people of Palestine.

In the past when Israel feel they have lost they crack down harder and harsher on the people of the Gaza and that is a tragedy.

No person who saw 60 minutes last night, the scale of utter destruction in Beirut, the mass grave of children's bodies could ever believe that the lives of a couple of soldiers, people trained to defend and kill, are worth the price.

Even most of the US conservatives, many Israelis and others have complained.

Leigh, here is a news flash. Australian citizens live in every corner of the world and they are all equal in the eyes of the law. If people who are Australian citizens choose to live in Lebanon they are allowed to. Similarly they are entitled to the same help as any other Australian. Like it or lump it that is the law.

How dare you suggest that some Australians should stay in Lebanon and be blown up just because they don't always live here. Just how bloody dare you.

Marilyn,

Leigh believes that only Australians whose blood is white-coloured should remain safe.

Today, I met a woman who works for the US embassy in Canberra. She is married to an Australian and has dual citizenship. This enables both her and her husband to travel between the US and Australia, to work in both countries and to keep their family unit together.

Hardly 800 of the 25,000 dual Australian-Lebanese civilians take Centrelink benefits. What are the rest doing?ebanon has no social security. They must be performing economically useful work.

The business and professional contacts made by dual Australian-Lebanese civilians benefit all Australians. If Leigh denies this, it is obvious she has no real or tangible loyalty to Australia.

Time for the UN to be saved from US imperialism.

United States has placed itself in charge of global decisionmmaking without any license. Her only license is one of self-appointment. The belief that because she is now unipolar, and to have achieved that position through the fall of the Soviet Union, the US automatically should rule the world.

But how wrong it is in a world that the US is always pressing should be democratic, which should mean that the US should only rule this world through a democratic vote arranged in a democratic institution such as the United Nations.

But because the UN does try to make laws at the behest of global representatives, the US now continually knocks back such laws because they are against the interests of Pax Americana, a cynical label for a country which like the old Roman Empire, for the last few years has insisted in holding the big end of a non-libertinian stick

Part Two

No more proof of America’s lack of global democratic activity has been her recent countermanding of a UN Resolution to fully discuss the Israeli attack on Lebanon. And how does our modern US countermand such laws?. By means of an outmoded veto only placed in the UN constitutrion originally through the insistence of the world’s two strongest powers to each have entitlement to use the veto at the time, the United States and the Soviet Union.

Furthermore, the fact the US has been allowed to use her outmoded veto, proves what a dumbed down set of scaredy-cats we now have as national and commonwealth representatives, which includes not only Britain, but our gutless Labor opposition in Australia, which appears to regard John Howard as Labor’s spokesman in world affairs which he definitely is not, which has been proven every time he prostrates himself before George W Bush, as just a weak lackey of Pax Americana.

It is suggested that with such impending problems again pressing our Middle East, America’s undemocratic and autocratic attitude to the situation should be much more discussed through our so wonderfully convenient Online

Boaz says: "Sorry... all this 'raging against Israel' is most pathetic, biased, and unsound.

If anyone wishes to RAGE against someone, rage against THOSE WHO CAUSED the problem ...i.e. Hezbollah."

Boaz there is a new problem and an exacerbation of an old problem created by Israel bombing the bejesus out of ordinary citizens, killing and terrorising civilians, bombing the infrastructure of a democratic country, and from an Australian's perspective bombing without regard for our fellow citizens. This is a terrorist action.
Why are the Liberals and Labour not raging against this callous disregard for our people?

It is starting to become a little clearer to me why we have been bombarded by anti-Muslim, anti-Arab, anti-Islamic propaganda.

Oldest trick in the propagandist books, get your "useful idiots" to stir up resentment, sentiment and hatred then no one will be concerned when the powers that be kill them.

Liberals and Labour leaders should be ashamed of themselves for not condemning Israel and the USA’s support for these terrorist activities.

The tactics described below by a disenchanted Iraeli have been used in OLO.

If the person is a Gentile, you cry, "You're anti-semitic" which is nothing more than a smokescreen.

But, if a Jew is the person doing the exposing, you resort to other tactics:

First, you ignore the charges, hoping the information will not be given widespread distribution.
Second: If the information starts reaching too many people, you ridicule the information and the persons giving the information.
Third: If that doesn't work, your next step is character assassination. If the author or speaker hasn't been involved in sufficient scandal, you are adept at fabricating scandal against the person or persons. (Ted Lapkin's methods to a tee).
Fourth: If none of these are effective, you are now to resort to physical attacks.
But, NEVER do you try to prove the information wrong.

These are propagandists' methods. Far-right, white supremists use similar methods.

In relation to the fourth tactic one can see why the Israeli's bombed Christian TV stations. The stations were sending the graphic pictures of Israel's "disproportionate and counter-productive" attacks on civilians.

Nicely said Rancitas,

I wonder how many people really know to what extent they are being used by unseen interests behind the scenes.

So, it is the obligation of the Lebanese to disarm and expell Hezbollah, is it? You mean like the Israelis disarmed and expelled Menachim Begin and the Stern Gang as they went about blowing up hotels and intimidating Palestinians off their lands in the 1940's?

What an extraordinary spin to suggest that Israel was calmly going about its business until a few rockets hit home? Short memory, must have a very short memory.

And if both Jews and Muslims worship the "one true God" then by what perverted logic can the Zionistas claim that God gave the land to them? Wouldn't he not reward the virtuous from both sides of his family? Doesn't a worthy father love each of his children equally?

And if John Howard can state that "We will decide who comes to our country and the manner of their comming", why was that principle not extended to the Palestinians who owed no debt to Jews or anyone else?

The Nazis murdered millions of Gays. Perhaps we should kick the Greeks off Lesbos and Mykonos?

Scout,

Can Israel do anything for Middle East peace? This is an interesting question, unfortunately, after the latest round of violence Israel has had to come to terms with the fact that restraint on their part only begets more violence, thus restraint by Israel at the present time would be unlikely, as the population does not trust their neighbour’s. The dovish spirit that led Israeli’s to withdraw from Lebanon and Gaza, in the face of overwhelming international pressure has been harmed if not destroyed in the most part by the fact that International observers have demonstrated their inability to understand any action, even when justified, by Israel.

As to the region, the current crisis is only the beginning of a larger, all encompassing campaign between the two muslim faiths:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/21/news/jihadists.php

This, is not an ‘isolated’ incident, but rather is symptomatic of the increasing tension between the Shia & Sunni in the entire region:

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=newsOne&storyid=2006-07-23T182306Z_01_L23855789_RTRUKOT_0_TEXT0.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsArt-L1-RelatedNews-11

The Iranian Military has attempted to forge closer ties with Saudi Arabia, but have been rebuffed:

http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles/iran-saudi_359902.html

The Saudi’s have since negotiated multi-billion dollar arms agreements with:

China: http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/missile/saudi.htm

The USA: http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-07-20T205428Z_01_N20280726_RTRUKOC_0_UK-ARMS-SAUDI.xml

The UK: http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=12947

France: http://www.ndtv.com/morenews/showmorestory.asp?slug=France%2C+Saudi+Arabia+ink+defence+deal&id=90477

This menacing military build-up in turn makes Iran nervous:

http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publish/article_16524.shtml

Which causes it to arm further:

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/index.php?storytopic=0&start=5430

Increasing its present efforts:

http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2002_03/cbchinamarch02.asp

http://www.iiss.org/whats-new/iiss-in-the-press/june-2006/buyers-line-up-for-chinas-arms

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/c-802.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/links.htm

And adding to its considerable defence force (with a significant first strike capacity):

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/missile.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/index.html

A recent Masters thesis suggests that the Saudi’s may also be gaining NBC’s:

http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/mcdowell.pdf

While Iran is well on the way to having Nuclear weapons:

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7990

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=798

So that being the situation, coupled with Israel’s growing antipathy toward International pressure; which has revealed itself to ordinary Israeli’s to be uncaring and unreasonable; what is Israel to do to assist the cause of Middle East Peace? They are not protagonists nor are they central to the larger play, they are simply bit players, and are well and truly sidelined in the upcoming main event.

What would you have me suggest?

Inshallah

2 bob

2bob,

Israel could declare its final boarders something that they have avoided since the inseption of the State and then perhaps the world could finally see that there is absolutely no chance of peace between the Israelis and Palestinians. Peace be damned they want as much land as they can get while insuring that the Arab population doesn’t come with it.

As far as the present situation in Lebanon is concerned Israel seem to have a green light from President Bush to do their worst and he is even rushing through improved WMDs to do it.

Listening to Israel National Radio there was an interview with an opposition Member of the Knesset (MK) and his biggest fear was that the current war against Hizballah will delay Israel's planned attack on Iran and he very much feared that Secretary of State Rice would crimp Israel's style by requesting that their bombing be restricted to military targets and that they end their current indiscriminate bombing of Lebanon.

The ABC of the States reported yesterday that Israel had bombed LBC and Future TV stations off the air in Beirut. The former is owned by a Maronite and certainly no friend of Hizballah the latter is owned by the Harriri clan allies to the USA and the concluded reason? Israel didn't want the world to see the crimes that they intend to commit in Lebanon and as most of the TV stations around the world covering the current conflict take their material from these 2 stations. Israel learned from the past that it has been forced into a premature ceasefire because the world has viewed one of their atrocities and it has no intention of that happening this time around.

Yes Israel could do a lot to help peace, even obeying the rules of engagement as set out in the Geneva Convention could be a start and perhaps obey international law and as a real novelty, UN resolutions. Israel has never done this in its cowboy history, somehow I don't see it starting now do you?

Interesting links but I wonder how much in them is actually true.

It makes me wonder who is reponsible for the assembling and dissemination of this material and who would really be interested in reading it on even an ad-hoc basis.

Who actually gets paid to sit down and put this stuff out there, by who and for what purpose?

I think much of it is meant to reinforce already held opinion than to inform.

The concept of misinformation (lies) and disinformation (90% truth but tainted with 10% obvious lies) are well-used intelligence tools.

That goes for both sides but one side usually has better resources than the other.

Sometimes it's called marketing, sometimes just propaganda, but it's always to be treated with a degree of suspicion - particularly in times of military conflict.

Otherwise it becomes "My God is better than your God, my links are better than your links..."

Demos,

Your opening sentence is probably correct. Most people are dyed in the wool ‘whatevers’. But, I don’t follow what you mean by “actual democracy”, nor your claim about leaving “the direction of national policy in the hands of a few individuals who are selected by the level of their arrogance and willingness to lie, cheat, and kill….”.

I don’t have a lot of time for politicians, but I don’t recognise anyone like you describe in our democracy.

Would I be wrong in assuming that this “actual democracy” of yours is something of you own invention, and that you would have a very harsh view of anyone voted into parliament by a majority of voters who did not comply exactly with your “actual democracy”?

We do have democracy in the West. It is not perfect, but it has proven to be the best thing yet available. We, unfortunately, find ourselves fighting wars simple because we are democratic – our enemies hate our democracy; they do not believe in democracy; they will do their utmost to destroy democracy.

The entire philosophy of the terrorism we are fighting is anti-democratic. Try to convince them of your views, and see what happens.

Your final paragraph seems to suggest that we call meetings of all voters to make the decisions that we select a few hundred politicians to make for us now. Apart from the total impracticality of your wish list, what would you do if the majority of the people still didn’t want the same as you wanted

2bob

You are supporting David-Boaz's disgraceful and developing 'final solution' for people who dis-agree with you.

Mate recant ... retract ... rethink... well at least distance yourself from that sort of evil.

I have enough knowledge of you by now, from our mostly good-natured debate, to think this is a serious error of judgement on your part.

Leigh

They usually respond. I expect it will take them sometime. But I think after reading much of the comment on this site they might just have the courage to adopt the European position.

I hope they go further and demand Israel 'get out of Lebanon' especially since such a position would be consistant with their position in regard to Iraq.

I am a white Australian female married to an Iraqi shia muslim ,every shia I have spoken to , be them Iraqi , Lebanese , Iranian ,Syrian and Afgani all give alegiance to Hezbollah . Listening or reading correspondance on shia arabic chat sites or satelite tv I find the same alegiance . As an Australian I find it very alarming because this alegiance far outways any they have for Australia despite , becoming citizens or even growing up here . So what you may be thinking , well Hezbollah does not think much of Australians , yes it does like Australia ,Hezbollah like most if not all groups of muslems wish to make it an islamic state .
Also all the shia people i have spoken to cared only when fellow shia were being harmed / killed .
Shia children actually some sunni's I know also , learn hate for the west and Israel from the time their parents talk to them , Israels retaliation will not change any thought patterns .
If Hezzbolla ordered these fellow Aussi's to attack sites in Australia , thats exactly what they would do .
Yes it is sad to see children dead and wounded , but Israel has the right to seek justice if Lebanese officials do not take control , after all , all they needed to do was give back the soldiers , of course this would not suit Hezzbollah and his backers they have hidden motives .
I worry about the possible increase in refugees seeking shelter on our shores and increasing our shia population .
Ifan : wheredoes the figure 800 out of 25000 come from .

Thanks Irfan, I am an Aryan and have red blood but I know what you mean. Somewhere along the line the so-called Aryans are going to have to face the consequences of what they did to the Jews in the holocaust instead of hiding behind the furphy of the islamic terror machine who could only have nightmares about murdering 6 million innocent human beings.

We Aryans though - 3 million in Vietnam, 100 million in two world wars, another 2 million in Cambodia - and those we didn't kill we sat back and watched. What a grand history we Aryans have.

Now of course we have blown up Afghanistan and Iraq and can't work out why they aren't suitably grateful for it. And then people like Fefe complain about shi'ites here.

I would be distressed beyond belief if any of my friends from Afghanistan or Iraq or Iran who just happen to also follow shi'ism were sent away - it was horrific enough watching the Bakhtiyari's being deported and dumped.

The fact is of course that muslims here are not hurting us at all, but we sure are hurting them with our racist, dog-whistling bull.

It was interesting tonight to see that the so-called terror group Hezbollah have set up refugee camps and food and sleeping stations for the displaced and bombed out citizens of Beirut while the Israeli's are blowing up refugees as they flee.

Hm.....someone want to tell me who the terrorists are here? And did people here know that there are over 5 million people who follow Judaism living protected lives in the US and that over 80% of all people who follow Judaism live in the US and Israel? With a population of nearly 14 million throughout the world they sure aren't as endangered as they would have us believe are they?

Me I will remain an atheist, easier to get on with almost anyone that way.

Dear Keith

one thing we need to clarify.

My 'Final Solution' would equally apply in effectiveness to the Israelis as well as the Palestinians or Hezbollah.

I'm speaking in time proven principles.

The realites though, suggest that if Israel wishes to survive in the long term, they must deal with 2 problems.
-The Palestinians in the camps and
-Hezbollah in South Lebanon.

I think that in the midst of all the emotive news coverage, you and others are losing sight of these fundamental root problems.

You call my approach 'Evil'. But ask yourself this. If you can re-settle people and provide them with economic infrastructure, a secure place to live, land... how is this evil ?

Another factor being lost sight of here, (by most who are contra ISrael) is the nature of Hezbollah in regard to 4 factors

1/ Relationship with Iran and its implications.
2/ The OFFensive nature of their weapons.
3/ Absence of such a thing as 'civilians' in South Lebanon. (Hezbollah only exists from the population, who support them, provide shelter and storage and launching sites for rockets etc)
4/ Their delcared GOAL of removing/destroying Israel. (Your comment ?)

Taken together, those 4 things would convince me (if I was an Israeli general) that the only lasting solution would be to

-Bare Minimum remove the population of Sth Lebanon to a position where such rockets cannot reach Israel.
-Seek a Multinational force with TEETH to maintain a safe buffer zone.
-Remove all infrastructure relating to Hezbollah activities in that buffer zone. (Including so called 'civilian' villages etc)

Will this create a 'massive humanitarian problem' ? yes of course it will. But lets remember those 'humans' are someones enemies. From adults to teens, even children. Perhaps if they publically (on published video) renounced Hezbollah I would allow them to return.
But if there was a hint of violence...it would be 'OUT' and out for good.

P.S. you still haven't come up with a solution :)

I often wonder what makes the supporters of Israeli terrorist activities tick, then I realise they have mindsets programmed with hatred of their neighbours, a lot has been said about "duel citizenship," many have complained about the Australian governments treatment of Australians who hold Lebanese Passports, I wish we would talk more about duel citizenship because then we would ask why does a third generation Australian hold a Israeli/Jewish passport, do all Jews hold Iraeli Passports, do they put Israel before Australia, sure do, why is Israel taking only Jewish Migrants, who have no genetic link with the holy land. their membership of a God Club ensures a ticket to the promised land, a land promised by a God they created, why dont they call on this God to come down to planet earth , prove they are not being untruthfull, it is not going to happen because only the devil supports the murder of young children, I feel sorry for the Israelis, they will pay the price for sowing the seeds of hatred, they need to stand back and think about the future, there will never be piece in the Middle East while the inhabitants claim to be doing their Gods work,

Double standards! to get a better understanding of the Israeli disproportional response to one or two soldiers being taken prisoner'

You have to read "The Protocols of the learned elders of Zion" can be found on the Jew Watch site,

David

Your 'final solution' expanded from Gaza to now include half of Lebonan. It's just make up as you go. It's an old crock of used shot. Next you'll be including the West Bank, parts of Syria and Jordon and ... well how about Sinai for starters?

I have a solution and stated it yonks ago... in your evil you were blind to it.

I'll state it again.
Return the borders to the pre '67 war borders. Compensate anyone or their families who lost land due to the Partition in '48. Simple and no need of Martins's misery making machinations.

The only reason you don't think it will work is because you have a desire to see the eventual emergence of a 'Greater Israel'.

Well your solution displaces a whole race of Palestinians. Guess what that will result in. Doh!
Mine requires only people get on with one another.
It is Israel who does not want fixed and indisputable borders. You'll rant that the Arabs will destroy Israel. Well mate they haven't in the last 58 years. Israel has survived a multitude of terrorist organisations and their evil during that time and will continue to do so.

If we allow the Palestinians fair, fixed and indusputable boarders and for the creation of their own governance we'll see the exact same situation arise as has arisen between Jordan and Israel, Egypt and Israel and to a great extent the peace on the physical border between Syria and Israel.

So much better and much more realistically achievable than your disgraceful 'final solution'.

Oh and don't believe the Palestinians are incalpable of adopting a 'live and let live' policy. Even that criminal Arafat was ready to concede that. Just asEgypt, Jordan and to an increasing extent Syria have embraced that notion.

2bob

You STILL haven’t answered my question. Just to remind you:

“how does continuing hostilities end war and achieve peace?”

Pasting a plethora of links – which may or may not be edifying is simply evading the debate and a cowardly way of interaction.

Now, as I am a considerate person I offer a single link regarding the Israeli/Hezbollah conflict:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1827332,00.html

I have even copied a part of it, as below:

“This war must be stopped immediately. From the start it was unnecessary, even if its excuse was justified. Every day raises its price, taking a toll in blood that gives Israel nothing in return. This is a good time to stop because both sides can claim they won: Israel harmed Hizbullah and Hizbullah harmed Israel. History shows that no situation is better for reaching an arrangement.

“Israel went into the campaign on justified grounds and foul means. It claims it has declared war on Hizbullah but, in practice, it is destroying Lebanon.”

I am sure, 2bob, that you can follow this text.

Therefore, my question remains (and this applies to all the arm-chair war-mongers), how does continuing vengeful hostilities achieve peace in the middle east?

A very worthy idea Scout, but just what should Israel do when (not if!) after the cease-fire Hezbollah start armed incursions across the border and lobbing rockets at Israeli towns and cities?

Scout,

Not really interested in peace. Was before, even supported the withdrawal from Lebanon, not now. Hizbollah and Lebanon made no attempt to comply with their obligations, and instead precipitated the current crisis, so be it.

The plethora of links you so despise, examine the fact that the main event is on the horizon...

As I point out in a parrallel post, Israeli government's are elected by Israeli people, who are overwhelmingly in favour of destroying Hizbollah at whatever cost, be it moral, ethical, legal or measured in terms of world opinion. Secure in the knowledge that the suicide bombers will begin to bomb the rest of the world soon enough...

Please understand, PEACE is not even on the table at the present time. It was before, and it was lost due to Lebanon's cynical decision not to disarm Hizbollah, or to use the Lebanese army on the border, but instead to flout their obligations by placing an armed Hizbollah on the border.

World opinion is easily cornered by peaceniks & arab terrorists, but its effects never last long, Israel has already ordered $2B worth of weapons to see it through the short to medium impact of continuing the operation.

Inshalah

2bob

Narcissist

In previous posts I proposed an enforced meeting of all political leaders in the middle east – via trade sanctions. All you suggested in your post was a continuation of the conflict. There has to be method to gather all parties together to discuss a peace process. I do not claim to have the magic answer – in a situation as convoluted and complex as the middle east no-one can. However, to continue hostile retaliation is going nowhere, surely you can see that?

2bob - I never said I despised your swamp of links - I simply have a life to lead and better things to do.

At least you have admitted that you are favour of the murder of more innocent lives rather than campaign for peace, for that is all that will occur while Israel continues tit for tat bombing on Lebanon. As attempting to discuss this issue with you is going nowhere I shall expend my energies with posters who are able to enter into discussion.

Scout,

What about talks to stop the terrorist in Iraq blowing up innocents there, or are you just naturally anti-democracy, anti-semetic and anti-western (or perhaps just pro-terrorist)?

It seems that the media have concentrated on only the poor innocent children that get blown-up by western bombs, and pay little or no attention to the children that get blown up by terroists. Tell me, is an Israeli or Iraqi child worth less than a Lebanese child? You seem to state this.

The government of Israel obviously is of the opinion that their children are more valuable. This is perfectly understandable. Perhaps the question here should be that the media's response to the 377 killed Lebanese is disproportionate and counter-productive.

Dear Keith
Ok.. I'll tackle your solution and I wont call you 'evil' but.. I must call you one name.. 'naive' no offense:)

You say.. 'Pre 67 Borders'...ok..but one minor problem with that..
http://www.iris.org.il/borders.htm <== map with legend.

Questions:

1/ 'Who' ruled the WB prior to that war ? i.e. 'which country' was it part of ?(you can sus that one out) So, retreating to the Pre 67 borders will not give the Palestinians squat, but will give the Jordanians lots.

2/ If Indonesia declared war on Australia, attacked us, but shock horror WE WON.. and decide to take West Papua as 'booty' and as a punitive action, and to also pay for our cost of the fight, would you want to 'give it all back' ? Think carefully about your answer.. its pretty close to 'checkmate' in chess :)

3/ Lets say we agree.. EXCEPT for just one tiny little bit of real Estate.. East Jerusalem, that must till hell freezes over, remain part of Israel. Ok.. we compensate the Arab residents, move them along with those in the Camps (formerly from Lydda and Ramla and other places from which they were disposessed) and put them ALL equally in some nice place (you can choose.. WB ?)
But basically, for the sake of a tiny chunk of land in Jerusalem, the Arabs are re-located, re-housed, compensated... do you think there will be peace ?

If not...why not ?

4/ Do you think Ismael Hanyahs statement
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1137605888541&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

"that Hamas does not recognize the existence of the State of Israel and maintains its vision of establishing a Palestinian state throughout all of the area west of the Jordan River." accords with your view that Arabs will 'live and let live' ?

or this

More from Haniyeh (read between the lines)

"If Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, peace will prevail and we will implement a cease-fire [hudna] for many years," Haniyeh said

(=Taqiyya.)

or this

"Hamas politburo chief Khaled Mashaal on Wednesday urged supporters around the world on to send Hamas arms, fighters and money to back its fight against Israel.

B_D, What is this fixation you have with taqiyya?

Mate, I grew up in an Indian Muslim family. Not once did my parents or any of my teachers talk about taqiyya. In fact, when I was in my 20's I read in a Sunni textbook that taqiyya is a shia concept that Sunnis reject as it allows you to tell lies.

Later, when I studied shiism, I realised the stuff I read from the Sunni textbook was wrong also.

The point is that taqiyya is something you keep harping on about as if to suggest that Muslims are all a bunch of 2-faced lying dimwits who cannot be trusted. But if you take a walk down Haldon Street Lakemba or Auburn Rd Auburn or Sydney Rd Coburg and do a straw poll, you'll find most people have never heard of taqiyya.

Anyway, back to the topic ...

Irfan Yusuf,

Why should anyone believe you? You only talk about the 'nice' things pertaining to Islam and calling anyone who doesn't accept your nonsense 'Nazis'.

You are probably using taqiyya now to cover up its existence. Misrepresenting me the other day as someone interested only in those whose "blood is white-coloured" is all part of it, too.

You are one of the worst advertisements for Islam. With friends like you, they don't need enemies.

Leigh, here's my honest opinion of you.

Anyone who regards John Howard as a pinko and leftie on immigration issues can be realistically described as a Nazi.

The shoe fits you. Wear it.

Now show me the taqiyya in the above 2 paragraphs.

7 civilians dead from Israeli missile strike

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060725/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel

The real enemy is Saudi Arabia but the cowardly Israelis are not allowed to attack them lest your price for gasoline goes up.

Now who built, sold and paid for the rockets?

My reading of Israeli strategy (with US agreement) in Lebanon is this:

Israel has limited military (but highly political) objectives in Lebanon.

Its seems that the Israelis intend only a limited air and ground offensive - to course some Hezbollah launch sites to become active - so they can be detected and destroyed.

The broader bombing campaign (including Lebanon's capital) appears to have been a way to create the current international crisis that can be "resolved" by ceasefire and the deployment of a much larger multinational force (than the present UN force) in south Lebanon.

It appears Israel is not intending to create a significant buffer zone in south Lebanon. Therefore "reliance" will be placed on an effective multinational force to create a deep buffer zone.

Multinational forces have been unable to create lasting, effective buffer zones in this area before. This time there is the added difficulty of increasingly longe range Hezbollah rockets.

The required deeper, and consequently more sparsely manned, buffer zone will be doomed to fail. Hezbollah and Israel will continue to strike each other while the multinational force remains ineffectual.

This failure will give Israel (and the US?) the green light to attack the sources of the rockets (already "officially" designated as Syria and Iran). This will be seen as decisive action by an international community that would have grown tired of the Lebanon quagmire.

So the current Isreali strategy of limited reaction, then expectation of multinational force failure, are preliminaries for the (already justified) attack on Syria and Iran.

Somewhere in this gameplan is an appeal to the WMD threat, which may be justified in Iran's case.

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com

Ifran, if John Howard is a pinko in relation to Immigration; I'd hate to meet anybody to his right. Where has Leigh been in relation to Detention Centres and the Immigration Department; a disgraceful period in Australia's history.

Once the bombing ends in Lebanon who will help in the reconstruction of the country. I bet Israel won't. Who is going to support those made homeless or who no longer have employment?
In the meantime the USA talks about diplomacy while sending munitions to Israel to use on Lebanon; how much credibility as an honest broker can they expect to have with Arab nations.

Bombing Lebanon will polarise the population and create hate for the future. Iraqis are now starting to complain that Iraq has been destabilised through the shock and awe bombing to the extent of it now being less safe than when Sadam led the country. Sadam was a monster; there is no question about that. But it is a dreadful irony that “democracy” has brought previously unknown dangers to Iraq. Iraq has become a quagmire; and now the Middle East is being further destabilized through the bombing of Lebanon.

Dear Irf
in the interests of good debate, I appreciate your input regarding the concept of Taqiyya. I'll refrain from using that term in regard to non Shia in future.

I will rephrase as follows:

They are using a 'minimalist' approach to attempt to hide their real intentions, based on their founding charter.

They mention "long term cease fire for many years".. this is a clear avoidance of changing their basic goal of destroying/removing Israel from "Muslim Lands" in the technical sense of that term.

So, the alleged 'double standard' of Israel, simply does not apply.
They are simply doing what they feel they have to do to survive.

Perhaps they have read the same history as I have, and Lebanon is a classic. The civil war did not begin in 1975, it began in around 1860 as far as I can see, and was as much provoked by the BRITISH and SYRIAN and TURKS as anyone else. The events, massacres and genocides of those years (just a grandfather distance in time) would not be forgotten by anyone.

At that time, for reasons only known to themselves the British backed the genocidal DRUZE (Who, aided by the Shia, Turks and Sunni's -massacred the Christians)

Have the people in the area changed ? Are their still massacres, genocides ? damn right there are..

1976 Damour, Christian town of 25,000'in the way' of the PLO.. massacre occurred with brutality equalling that of the Nazi SS.

1982 Shabra and Shatila PLO camps. Palestinians Massacred by nominal Christians (maybe remembering Damour ?) The PLO was 'the enemy' in every sense of the word.

Given the lamentable history of outside powers either 'interfering' to promote their own interests, or.. toothless 'Peace keeping forces' who are always subject to those same interests, I consider the Israelies are just doing the best they can in the light of a very messed up world and region and looking after ....surprise surprise..their own interests.

Pointing at 'them' today and calling them the 'bad guy' will only ever evoke a response from me of "but remember.....such and such"

Irfan,

You really are a nasty piece of work, aren't you. I must be a funny old Nazi, siding with Israel. I am not, of course, a Nazi, and calling me one further reveals you true character. You keep bad mouthing people who dare to criticise Islam in a pathetic attempt to keep our minds off their foul Islamist deeds. As the saying goes, not all warriors are combatants.

Unlike you, I will not use any of the derogatory names that could be applied to you. Suffice to say that I hold you in contempt. Your childish name calling will not silence me.

Ant,

You are being just too silly - apart from sucking up to Yusuf who will turn on you too soon enough. I was in the same place as you were during your imagined "disgraceful period in Australia's history'. I totally approve of the detention of illegal entrants, and make no apology for that. I am to the right of John Howard, and you probably would hate to meet me, as you say, or anybody else who doesn't agree with your views. However, you would find me quite an amiable person who is not frightened, like you, of people with whom he disagrees.

I have been called a Nazi, fascist, racist, homophobe and all sorts of things by the likes of Yusuf and others who use terms of abuse to put people off. It doesn't work, and the name calling says more about them than it does about me.

Incidentally, while I approve of detention of illegals, I would really like to see them all sent back before their feet touch our soil. Have a fit about that!

"Hezbollah continues to boast of lobbing over 2200 rockets into Israel to target civilians. These terrorists are using human shields in Lebanon to raise the death toll and make Israel appear to be the heartless aggressor.

Rockets are being fired from outside homes, and the families taken into the tunnels to insure maximum civilian casualties. They want to insure that Israel loses the public opinion battle, and the media is more than willing to assist.

Hezbollah’s representative Hossein Safiadeen’s defiant statement came during a conference in Tehran attended by representatives from HAMAS, and ambassadors from Lebanon and Syria. “We are going to make Israel not safe for Israelis. There will be no place they are safe. You will see a new Middle East in the way of Hezbollah and Islam, not in the way of Rice and Israel.” Hezbollah, represented by the Lebanese government, rejected the peace proposal Rice placed on the table.

Safiadeen is adamantly opposed to any efforts to arrange a truce between Israel and Lebanon, even though there are some Arab states, including Egypt and Saudi Arabia that are pressuring Syria to end support for Hezbollah. Both Syria and Iran strongly support Hezbollah with funds and arms.

Syria has hinted that they might talk, but made the return of the Golan Heights one of the talking points. Israel is not likely to give up another area that would allow a base for further missile attacks.

Safiadeen is convinced that the people in Israel will pack up and leave the area if Hezbollah will simply increase their rocket and suicide-bombing attacks. According to him, “The people who came to Israel, (they) moved there to live, not to die. If we continue to attack, they will leave. This war will be remembered as the beginning of the end for Israel."

They do not know the Jewish people. The Mayor of Naharya has fought in three other wars. He warned that Jews, Christians, anyone not Muslim was in the terrorists’ aim."

Leigh, I think Ifran and I have disagreed in the past, so what? We are probably bound too as Ifran has in the past I understand had associations with the Liberal Party, I tend to take a Social Democrat view to the world.

I guess I don't need to say any more about your post as you have already said it.

I wonder what would happen if the Lebanese armed forces had thousands of tanks, 200 nuclear missiles, plus $32.000.000 donated to them everyday, by the Jewish controlled White House, Israel would not have a imigration policy that allows Jews who have no genetic link with the Holy Land to settle on land stolen from Palestinians. I feel sorry for the Jews they are on the road to extinction, they have been brainwashed to believe God promised them the land of Israel . this is the greatest scam of all time , hundreds of millions of people have died most of them Jews, there is a way to prove they are not lying, they should ask their God to come down to visit them, tell the world they are truthful, this will not happen because God is the God of Love. if I stole my neighbours car then said God told me, to take the car who would believe me, so why do we believe the lies being told.
in the mean time they are planning World War Three , the destruction of the Holy Mosque in Jerusalem will ensure a nuclear punch up, everyone will be throwing punches, you have to question the sanity of people who plan such acts . many on this site blame Muslims for being religious fanatics, the war against Lebonon is part of the plan to demolish the Mosque,
650 French Jews have just arrived in Israel how many of them have a genetic link with that land, how many will build a home on land that was stolen from a Palestinian, why cant we have a land where Arab and Jew live together as brothers no fences, no claims of ownership on false historical fiction,

Many thanks to Loewenstein for again almost singlehandedly decrypting the mass of Goebellsian propaganda proliferated throughout the media as "coverage" of Israel and the US's latest acts of schoolyard thuggery throughout the captive Middle-East.
To the likes of; Olmert, Rice, Murdoch, Bush, Rubenstein, Lapkin, Downer and your accolytes like Two-bob and Leigh, etc.
It may be that you evil forces attempt to crush the legitimate aspirations of the majority of people of the region, as Franco and Hitler did against the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War, but it will hopefuly be at the cost of your rotten souls.
You nauseate me with your lies, insensitivity and brutality.
I and many like me, are only driven further toward unqualified sympathy and pity for the masses of innocent people you collectively torment and oppress, and I pray daily that justice is one day done.

Even in the so called biblical times of reporting, the Jews have never had a homeland ......

Even in the so called biblical times of reporting, the Jews have never been honest, nor trusted........

Even in the so called biblical times of reporting, the Jews have lied, connived and falsified documentation for aggressive attacks ......

And now .... well no difference whatever, for the so called Jews now in Israel have no connection whatever to the land they have usurped from the long term residents .... and you want terrorists, try starting with the Jews themselves, from the Jew Kapos who decided who was to live and who was to die in the concentration camps - to the Jews controlling the NKVD who killed and murdered more than 20 million Russians ...... BUT wait – they were not real people – they were not Jews were they?

Then, come cry on my shoulder - you miserable little minded people.

But in the meantime - go look at what the Jews are doing now - see the war crimes they are committing now .... and then say to me how proud you are to say they are so very good, but wronged people ......

http://www.assafir.com/iso/israeli-aggression/regions/

Go wash your hands in the blood of innocent children - go look in the eyes of orphans, whose parents have been murdered .... and then, then ask yourself - would you forgive them .... or would you also take an eye for an eye?

Do not go to this link unless you have a strong stomach - which I doubt - for those who support the Jews are but craven cowards and have no stomach for the truth …. And may you burn and rot in your own little hells

Kekenidika, I get really angry when people (including Israel supporters) sprout hatred of Muslims here. But it also angers me when people use opposition to certain Israeli military incursions as a cover to spread hatred of Jews.

Israel may call itself a Jewish state, but incinerating children is not part of Judaism or Jewish cultures.

Israeli leaders committing dastardly deeds are not doing it for Judaism. The average person who just happens to be Jewish mustn't be held accountable for this.

Jews as a whole people and Judaism as a religion mustn't be tarnished or maligned.

Part One.

Irfan, You might as well vent your spleen on me for despising Muslims as well – I have no particular love for them because of the hatred they display towards others – so it works both ways.

I am not spreading hatred for the Jews – I am just pointing out some inescapable facts of their perfidies – based on their own history and history is something you just cannot escape. AND as for your statement “incinerating children is not part of Judaism or Jewish cultures….” Yeah right … Go tell that to http://www.assafir.com/iso/israeli-aggression/regions/beirut/pages/image/imagepage5.html - - - Next you have me believe that stoning is not a punishment decreed in your Koran? If it isn’t, then you had better go tell a few of the Muslim nations that are still doing it now … or have you conveniently forgotten that aspect of Islam – is it any different? I think not!

As for peaceful cohabitation, one only has to read of the murders of people from other religions in Pakistan, Indonesia and the one and only religion in Saudi – and couple that with the evil of the Fundamentalists in the Americas and all their splinter cults and cultists – then you might begin to understand why ALL damned religions are mind control organizations and thus inherently evil.

As for Islam, Islam was not a religion founded on peace, because your prophet killed off a few of the opposition, he also had a few men killed off so he could have their wives and was even a paedophile with his 9 year old child “bride” – which may – or may not have been the done thing in those days ….. At least Christ preached peace, followed a peaceful path and railed against the Jewish religion and the corruption within - but the majority of Muslims today are no better these days AND still think the same way of world domination.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

This is what I think. This is what I believe.

Part two to follow

Kekenedika,
Irfan is right.
If it was ONLY Jewish people behaving badly we would not have to then explain Bush, Cheney, Howard, Rice AND/OR some of the more extreme Islamic/Arabic elements also contributing to it all; OR the fat reactionary oil plutocrats in places like Saudi Arabia or even willfully ignorant, lazy, beer-swilling Aussies.
The tangled web of history and resultant current political imbalances are the cause of this abcess. Different actors have different challenges. For us in the West, as with Israel, the challenge is NOT to abuse our power the way Bush and his ignorant mongrels and confederates seem to be doing.
Irfan, Loewenstein and others show the way in seeking objectivity and the sooner certain partisans do the same free of chip on the shoulder, the sooner a solution can be found and implemented.
I can't beleive the God of the "Children of the Book" would be happy with the way we- ALL of us- are handling these issues, or the suffering that goes on because of stupidity, prejudice, arrogance, laziness, fear, cowardice and greed.

If you do not like the way I think or what I believe … then really, all I can say is “tuff titties”, because there is not one thing you will be able to do, say or even coerce me into changing – it will only prove my point that you – like all the rest - are just another small vacuous mindless nonentity. It would do you good to start thinking for yourself sometimes.

I usually treat others with due respect – however, when religion is brought into the conversation I am disgusted – by all! AND you may well say “Jews as a whole people and Judaism as a religion mustn't be tarnished or maligned.” I say back to you why not?

The Jews are targeting legally elected Hamas politicians for selected paramilitary executions, yet seem not to give a damn about the hundreds of innocent children who are also murdered by their stupidity, their ignorance and arrogance – as in “Oh well better a dead child than a live terrorist later….”
They have elected their government to do their bidding – and their government is killing innocents in their name AND they WILL be held responsible – after all the Lebanese have elected their own Hezbollah to do their own killing – but the only difference being that the Jews have control of the media and the crocodile tears of hypocrisy are falling thick and fast – As Micheal Gorgochev said on DATELINE – the Jews will lose all support from the rest of the world– except for the Americans who are controlled by Zionists and possibly Howard, who is so far up Bush’s Fundamental Orifice that he does not have one original thought for himself.

This of course does not auger well for ordinary Australians, for we also will be held to account for what our elected government has done in our names and shame.

So Ifran – you want to get angry, really angry? – Then go look in a mirror and see the object of your anger, because it is you – not me!

Kekenidika, I agree with you that religion is the basis for many of the ills of our world. Fundamentalists of any persuasion can be very dangerous. However, there are notions that are good useful guideposts for living such as the Golden Rule, the Commandment about not killing ( the 10 commandments generally), and the parable of the Good Samaritan come to mind. I can't comment on any other religions but I suppose they have similar moral and uplifting notions.

But some who appear to hold religious views on OLO are a huge worry; they profess to be Christian but their words are quite the opposite as they push violence leading to innocent blood being spilt as a means to resolve the ME problems.

Though I disagree with you in relation to Ifran. He has had past associations with the Liberal Party but tends to take a small "l" approach. I suppose the reason that I have commented about Ifran is that from what I have read has been fairly consistent with his political views.

UNITED NATIONS
The U.N. Security Council called Sunday for an end to the violence in Lebanon and deplored
Israel's airstrike on a house in the village of Qana which killed 56 people, almost all of them women and children.

Ifran ... again I draw on your quote ...."But it also angers me when people use opposition to certain Israeli military incursions as a cover to spread hatred of Jews. - Israel may call itself a Jewish state, but incinerating children is not part of Judaism or Jewish cultures....."

So now where exactly do all of you stand now? Do you only target women and children rather than burn them?

That would have to be the best and only option left to you all - because when the women and children have been murdered, there is not much left for anyone to live for is there? There is no future generations to bring forward their culture - and of course thee will be no more terrorists to kill bomb and maim.........

AND of course - let us not forget the might american war machine - almost continually at war since 1880 - and now led by a cretin who has major problems in stringing together a sentence with words containing more than one syllable .. what hand do they play in the bombing of innocents?

Who next will these megalomaniacal murderers strike next? How well do you sleep in your safe bed at night?

Kekenidika, you call George Bush a cretin, I don't think your right in relation to that; but I do believe him to be the most dangerous man on the planet at present. There are obviously other dangerous men but they do not have the same military might behind them.

It was inept diplomacy to talk about an axis of evil; a pretty stupid comment; spreading the possible war fronts to the four corners of the world.

" I get really angry when people (including Israel supporters) sprout hatred of Muslims here. "

Irfan, I get angry when muslims kill non-muslims reciting Allah with Koran words in the background.

Infact, my hatred towards Islam started when I saw the Daniel Pearl video ... And after they butchered him, they were jumping with joy.. What a sickening sight.

I get angry when moderate muslims defend Bin Laden and his ilk; when they shout "Death insults" to All infidels; when they throw nasty things on Our Prime minister etc.

Ant
>” Kekenidika, you call George Bush a cretin, I don't think your right in relation to that”<
I am sorry for that oversight – and I really do apologise quite profusely – I really had no intention of denigrating any cretin, by insinuating that Bush was up to their level of intelligence, so I withdraw any unintentional and unseemly slight on their honour unreservedly

And Websters, given that anyone’s gods in this forum must be a complete f@#kwit letting all this mayhem going on – have you ever considered that all you see on TV may not have happened as you think you saw it….?

Have you ever thought of the murders that America has done for their gods and their Zionist masters? Keep in mind my good man (or woman) that the Americans formulated the Taliban and Bin Laden, then like rabid mongrel dogs turned on them and bombed an innocent backward country further into the ideals of the fundamentalists – but then again the Yanks are so pious and blameless are they not?

Don’t blame me, blame your own faulty research and remember to engage your brain, small as it is, before you venture into slamming one lot, keep in mind your lot is not squeaky clean in the massacre stakes – read a bit of history, if indeed you are able to read that is.

Do not think I am on the side of the Moslems either – all religions are mind control agencies – they all need to be destroyed, disbanded and banned – they are ALL dangerous

And Irfan - don’t worry – I love you too.. well almost

" And Websters, given that anyone’s gods in this forum must be a complete f@#kwit letting all this mayhem going on – have you ever considered that all you see on TV may not have happened as you think you saw it….? "

Hi KK, I don't have any idea. please enlighten me..
As far as I know, mohammed started the religion of death i.e get virgins by slitting throats, blow them up and wake up in heaven, conquer and praise, lose and cry "Occupation" , dream and build mosques on other's holy places.. These are all but a glimpse of cult of death i.e Islam.. I thought of murders of Americans & Bin Laden. May I enlighten you that Bin Laden started Jihad when Saudi allowed U.S (infidels) on their holy soil. Now, go and blame your poor 'research' and try again. Good luck.

Plerdsus
what nonsence. Are you really saying we should go back thousands of years to see who rightfully owns a land. In that case all non aboriginies should leave Australia. Europe would be turned on it head.africa South america also.Do you want to go back to when God promised Abraham the land of Canaan. Was it Ishmael or Issac who was to succeed. Save me
The fact:it was not until the mid 1800 that the Zionists started looking for a home land. Up to that time they were quitew happy waiting for the messiah. Yahuda Alkalar first mentioned Palestine. Theodr Herzel then started the push in earnest. Israel was created by the UN at the US's insistence. I won't mention the UK's efforts from 1916 till just after WW2.Just too deceitful and complicated. Only 33 countries (Australia was 1)voted to give Arab land to Europeans (Zionists). This was the time the whites thought they were born to rule. Simple can't be argued.

the fact the Jews were treated badly cannot be argued. But why was the price to make the Western world look good paid by the Palestinians. Surely we can forget about who is to blame. the eggs cannot be unscramled. If the US and Israel really wanted peace they would have had it years ago.

Don't forget the Jews that moved to Palestine/Israel had not lived there for over 2000 years Thats right 2000 years. What sort of justification is that

Amen to the dangerous double standard written about by Antony Loewenstein some months ago.
May I respectfully suggest that we all exercise a little imagination.
The TV image of an Israeli tank rolling through a refugee settlement, some years back admittedly, has remained vividly with me. I ask myself, how would I feel in the Palestinians' position?
Does this mark me as anti - semitic? Probably,given the currently prevailing curious tunnel vision, though such an assumption would be false.
While not a serious student of Jewish law or the teachings of Mohammad, I can recognise Political Correctness, with all its attendant hypocrisy when I see it. Please tell me why, Antony, your voice is in such a minority in this country. It is surely PC at its most selective to remain silent in the face of Israeli treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied terrtories.
How by witholding Aid to the Palestinians the "West" hopes to ease the situation completely baffles me.