Sister Susan,
I am a confirmed atheist but have consistently supported the East Timorese struggle for Independence since before the Indonesian invasion as an activist helping to maintain communications between the internal and external representatives of Fretilin and passing on information to the media of Indonesian atrocities from the date of the invasion which had been passed on during radio transmissions.
However the media was complicit in refusing to publish press releases on the grounds that they were 'unconfirmed reports'
The background to the Australian Governments of Whitlam , Fraser, Hawke , Keating and Howard refusal to acknowledge the rights of the Timorese is now a black page in our history .

I now support the endeavours of the West Papuans who have been facing the same treatment at the hands of the Indonesians and I believe the majority of Australians also support their struggle despite the policies of the Australian Government and indeed the present Opposition leader, Beasley who put Commercial interests ahead of Human Rights issues.

I hope you will forward your paper with it's Christian message to the hippocrits in the Australian Parliament who consistently open sittings with a prayer yet turn their backs on Human Rights abuses on our doorstep.

Discarding the traditional habit for skirt and cardigan seems to be Sr. Connelly’s only concession to the real world. Relations between countries simply do not work the way she thinks they should, particularly between such disparate countries as Australia and Indonesia. All interaction between Australia and Indonesia is for mutual benefit, and there is no place in the relationship for Australia to be tut tutting to Indonesia nor offering gross insult – as we did by swallowing the claim that 42 West Papuans were in need of protection from the Indonesian Government.

It has been shown that there is no comparison between West Papua and East Timor; Sr. Connelly insists that there is because it suits her to believe that the ‘other side’ is lying, including the United Nations in the case of Papua. But, the religious organization she is part of has always been more concerned about dogma than truth.

Emotion, not common sense, rules when she refers to the Australian Government’s “disgraceful proposal” for offshore processing and refuge somewhere other than Australia. As the wife of one of the 42 absconders has arrived safely and without fuss in Papa New Guinea, this is surely no problem for anyone genuinely in need of asylum. Australian has no obligation to take anyone who just turns up on our shores, needy or otherwise. We are signatories to a Convention, not to Rafferty’s Rules for country shoppers.

The Howard Government is, after a monumental gaffe, realizing what even the mighty British Empire had to realise after the Indian Mutiny: don’t interfere with the customs of the locals, even if you “own” the country. And we certainly don’t own Indonesia.

What Sr. Connelly preaches is gross arrogance as per the imperialism she is meant to despise.

Leigh,
DIMA found that the asylum-seekers had reasonable grounds for fearing persecution. No one in their right minds with a knowledge of Indonesian affairs in Papua / Irian Jaya could doubt that this factual determination was correct.

Indonesia learnt its lessons well from East Timor. Firstly, they learnt that they should have assassinated independence leaders like Belo and Xanana before they gained international fame. Secondly, they learnt that the policy recommended by Governor Mario Carrascalao and implemented in 1989 of allowing foreigners into the territory would lead to greater revelation and awareness of human rights abuse. Accordingly, TNI killed Theys Eluays in 2001 and the Government has effectively banned foreigner journalists from getting into Papua now.

There are differences between Wesr Papua and East Timor, The biggy would be oil in the Timor sea. When our government recognised the plight of these people and encouraged independance, it wasn't about anything other than oil and the deal we thought we could make
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I dont believe West Papua has significant oil reserves and as such, must make its own way in this world. The Indons are after something they have, perhaps gold or arable land. One quick glance will show that the West Papuans are ethnically different to Indons and perhaps more closely related to the PNG background.
As for the hysteria about offshore processing, whats the problem? If a person is fair dinkum being persecuted, a few months on Nauru or Xmas island should be no sweat.
Unless of course its all BS and the asylum seeker knows they would be declined.

Leigh,

The acceptance of the asylum-seekers claim was a rare and beautiful thing in Canberra-Jakarta relations - a decision made purely in its merits without political expediency butting in its ugly head to mess up people's lives and deprive them of legal rights. Are you suggesting that the countries from which such refugees come have an override on the DIMA decisions or is it only if they come from Indonesian territory?

You are on good company with Dick Woolcott and his silly demeaning article in the "Australian" today suggesting that there is little comparison between Timor and Papua. Everyone knows that the UN recognises Indonesia's claim to West Papua whereas it didn't recognise Indonesia's claim to East Timor. But there are many more similarities between the two relating to the local people's resistance to integration into Indonesia, the pattern of TNI human rights abuse and the controversial nature of Jakarta's takeover of both territories.

Concerns for human rights conditions beyond one's own borders is not the same as imperialism and to accept that it is would be to undo just about all the international human rights advances since 1945.

Leigh, at it again, believing the drivel that Ruddock peddled in the 2001 election. if New Guinea was a settlement country for Papuans why on earth would they risk a dangerous trip to Australia? There is no law or convention in the world that says people have to go to the first country - the convention for refugees was written to overcome that.

People fly here from Russia, Israel, China, Peru and Brazil - half way around the world.

What is the difference do you think? My grandfather was saved by a Fuzzy Wuzzy in WW11 - save the Papuans, everyone is entitled to peace and freedom.

This piece of writing by Sister Susan Connelly is the most biased and imbalanced piece of writing I've read in this forum so far. Her writing contains so much lies and display high degree of religious-intolerance and ethnic-intolerance (against non-Christians and non-Papuan transmigrants) that only retarded person would take it seriously. So much for Jesus's teachings of love and tolerance, which make no appearance in this "sister's" hateful rantings.

No wonder, since the writer (Susan Connelly) is a proscribed enemy of Indonesia according to Foreign Affairs Commission of Indonesian Parliament as she is determined to be lead supporter of Papuan separatism. It is clear as daylight she is 100% biased commentator.

Let me correct the propaganda of this terrorist-supporter:

1) Population of East Timor under Indonesian rule actually doubles from 600,000 in 1970 (Portuguese census) to over 1.1 million in 2000 (UN census). It is completely impossible for "one-third" of the population to "perish" when the population actually doubles. It is clear East Timorese genocide is just a propaganda myth from separatists.

2) Population of native Papuans actually increased at Malthusian rate under Indonesia (600,000 in 1961 to 1.5 million in 2000) thanks to improvement of healthcare by Indonesian administration fully funded by Indonesian subsidies. It is clear no "genocide" ever happened there. In fact, the much-talked about "Yale report" ONLY concludes that there is "possibility" of genocide aka the report is BULLCRAP.

3) There is no "house-burning" in Papua. There is also no "flood of refugees", as there are only 42 "asylum-seekers", one of which is a kidnapped child and others were self-proclaimed separatists bringing their family. These 42 do not in any way represents 1.5 million native Papuans. Those who think they do is mathematically-idiot.

4) Indonesian govt subsidised 1 trillion rupiah annually for Papua, including for the protection of native Papuan culture and languages, which are better preserved in Indonesia than in PNG where native culture has been destroyed by uncontrolled distribution of guns, alcohol, and drugs. The foremost centre of study of Papuan culture is University of Cendrawasih, established and subsidied by Indonesian government.

@Marilyn Sheppard:

Make no mistake, do not be fooled by separatist propaganda. The separatists themselves admitted that they made this journey to Australia as method of dirty propaganda against Indonesia:

"But they decided against the common solution of slipping across the border with Papua New Guinea. "We have not received any serious international attention by seeking asylum in P.N.G., says Wainggai through an interpreter. "We decided that because of Australia's role in taking responsibility in the Pacific area we would come here."
http://www.time.com/time/pacific/magazine/article/0,13673,503060417-1181678,00.html

BTW "fuzzy-wuzzies" came from PNG. No Australian soldiers operated in West Papua, where the natives happily aided the Japanese to hunt down Dutch "guerillas". In World War II-era PNG, most natives living under the Japanese were mostly busy betraying Australian "coast-watchers" to the Japanese or engaging in tribal wars. First PNG PM Michael Somare remembered the Japanese soldiers very fondly.

The point that is being overlooked in all of this is that there is an obvious breakdown of the multiculturalist ethos at work. More so in the Solomon Islands where the torching of Chinese shopkeepers is becoming a popular pastime.

Surely we should be sending in the shock troops, lead by Bob Brown and his ilk, to enforce a spot of re-education upon the hapless natives. You know, to help them overcome that ignorance and intolerance that impedes the smooth integration of their newer fellow citizens. In all their glorious diversity.

That nasty bigotry can be worked upon I am sure.

Sister Sheppard is an agent for a multi national religious organization that wants Australia to fight its battles for it.

East Timor is geographically part of Indonesia, and personally I hope the Indos re invade the place and regain what should be their own territory. Naturally, this does not sit well with the Bishop of Rome, who considers East Timor to be “Catholic” territory. Well, if the present absolute monarch of the Vatican wants to keep his colonial possessions, he should mobilize the Swiss Guards and get them to fight the Indonesians with their halberds.

We the Australian people, have no desire to fight crusades on behalf of the Papists. Indonesia is our neighbour, and we will not destroy our relationship with our neighbour in order to create yet another Solomons problem which can never be solved. The last thing that Australia wants is yet another failed black state holding out the begging bowl to Australia. If the Vatican wants to finance these failed states, with their ever growing, contraceptive free populations, then it can go right ahead. But somehow I think that the Pope prefers Aussie taxpayers to finance his religions territorial possessions with their religiously ordained population explosions.

Its funny how the churches rave on and on about Multiculturalism, and odd how they keep making statements that people’s ethnicity and religion is really unimportant. But if that was really the case, then who cares who runs East Timor or Papua?

Obviously, there is a big difference in what the churches preach to the converted, and what they are really on about. The trick for the Vatican is state its case in such a way as to make it’s own self interest look like compassionate altruism. Sister Sheppard seems to have mastered that particular skill.

Some people fight their religious wars for the sake of bonking 72 virgins in heaven. I would not accuse Sister Sheppard of having designs on that reward. But perhaps she seeks the semi divine status of saint?

First it was the Roman Catholics and the Jesuits stirring up trouble in E Timor and now it's the Uniting Church in West Papua. Why can't we rid the world of religious nutters and do-gooders so that peace may reign.

Those who wish to do good need only travel to Timber Creek or Katherine where Aborigines do need assistance. Remember the Aborigines? We often get hit over the head with them but it seems like the mad religious camorra have conveniently forgotten about them and their deprivations. Next time I am asked to dig deep to relieve the suffering of Aborigines I might ask 'what suffering'.

Another article by a religious blank who sees nothing but the deluded false god she grovels to

Proud to be Indonesian, bet your a gun totting Muslim. Like all religious nutters, make up your own rules and statistics, Truth and facts aren't part of religious conviction, just an annoyance to your false propaganda.

Population increased in Timor, because of the forced invasion by indonesians to supplant native populations. The same goes for west papua.

There were Australian troops in west papua during WW2, my uncle included. He praised WP's who helped him and his mates on many occasions, saving many Aussies from the japs. Learn to read more than your koran. I served time in WP during the 60's attempting to control Indonesian aggression. The actions of the Indonesian military during those times was nothing short of despotic towards native papuans.

Sister Susan is just another apologist, if her lot hadn't corrupted the papuans by enforcing the fear of god and giving them a reason to go berserk in gods name, they wouldn't have the problems they have.

Redneck, whilst I agree with most you say, I think you'll find that our relationship with Indonesia is on a slide to oblivion and political if not physical conflict. The weight of their growing rat bag Muslim population and the dwindling resources of their seas and other food stocks will see them increasingly pushing their boundaries, creating problems for us. Its a natural progression of monotheistic aims and expressions. You must remember that all religion is expansionist, territorial and psychologically. Thats its only aim, expand, confuse, disrupt, violate and take over. Throughout the world, all religiously controlled countries end up fighting amongst themselves and others in the end. History shows, Evil inspires evil to more evil, hence religion and religious expression.

Sadly our part of the world is suffering the same hangover as Africa, caused by monotheistic invasion. We see how dysfunctional and despotic Africa has become, the same is happening in our region. Cultural disharmony stems from religious intervention and suppression.

Rogidon and Marilyn,

Attacking another's opinions is no substitute for having opinions of your own, and there is no point in attacking my opinions because I have no intention of changing them. They are based on common sense and fact - not on emotions.

Asylum seekers do not have the right to wander the world looking for somewhere nice to live.

Rodigon, I'm not suggesting that Indonesia have anything to do with our acceptance or not of people who arrive here illegally. If you gained that impression from any of my posts, you need to pay more attention. And, since when were your better qualified than Richard Woolcott to make statements on the the situation?

Marilyn, I haven't read Mr. Ruddock's "drivel",but you seem to be into drivel rather than what the Refugee Convention really says. You are big on emotion, poor on facts.

I presume you are trying to compare people who arrive by plane, with correct short term documentation, with those who arrive by boat with no documentation. That doesn't constitute 'country shopping' as I have referred to it, and they are treated the same way as the illegal entrants, once their visas have expired, so there is little difference in the end. One group is just shiftier and more blatantly dishonest than the other.

Your grandfather was saved by a fuzzy wuzzy, was he? I must have misread your bio which I thought would have precluded you from having any forebears in the Australian military. Apart from being totally irrelevant to the situation of illegal entry to Australia, don't be too sentimental about your beloved fuzzy wuzzies. Just as many of them helped the Japanese.

And, there is no automatic "entitlement" to peace and freedom for anyone. These things have to be earned. That is why we in the West have different conditions from those in the Third World.

In the meantime, both of you should try sticking to expressing your own opinions of subjects presented, and not worry that everyone doesn't agree with you.

You did misread my bio Leigh - I am 7th generation Australian and my grandfather migrated to Australia from England as a 15 year old unaccompanied child who lied about his age to get here.

That was 1920 and in 1938 he lied about his age again and signed up for the war - he spent the next 6 years in hell and became quite an active peace campaigner when he got home. He always told us about the guts and courage of the Papuans and how they saved him. That was after he had been in Egypt for a time.

So how I don't qualify as having antecedents incapable of being in the war beats me.

And for those who call me sister Sheppard - I am an atheist and always have been.

Now Leigh, you opinions I would defend to the death your right to hold them and express them, but I wish after all these years you would educate yourself to the reality instead of just spouting hatred for anyone you perceive to be different.

To correct some of the above.
In 1962 the UNTEA and UNSF estimated the population at 900,000 (roughly), where as the Pacific Islands' Year Book estimated the 1961 West Papuan population at 728,000 ; and Indonesia in 1961 said it was 758,396.

From 1957 to 1961 the Netherlands recorded an increase of 35.65% or around 7.9% per year growth rate; while our friend from Indonesia claims the population growth has precisely mimicked PNG growth from an estimated 2million to 5.6million; the question remains why are there only a quarter as many West Papuans as East Papuans ?

As for education, true Indonesia inserted a commercial university whose students during the 1970s and 80s were 99% Javanese and other transmigrants. But the removal of the primary and secondary schools from the Papuan townships might be more significant.

Next - the 1969 'Act of Free Choice' which Indonesia in 1962 suggested and signed an agreement upon for all men & women not foreign nationals would be allowd to vote - yet by 1969 General Sarwo Edhie claimed West Papuans were incapable of voting, and that only the men he selected should be allowed to vote. Yet eight years before under voluntary Dutch elections 83% of the Papuan population voted as compared to 70% of the Asian and Europeans in West New Guinea.

The Indonesian military in 1969 had to bring out armoured assault vehicles to put down the Papuan demonstrations in Jayapura calling for one-vote one-person.

Finally, the Indonesian Constitution itself claims to protect every citizens rights to free-speech, assembly, and other forms of expression. So WHY is it illegal to raise the Morning Star flag or talk about independence from the Indonesian State ?

WHY is Indonesia using colonial style laws to enforce 'unity' and repress public rights and advancement , thereby forcing tens of thousands of West Papuans to flee across the border to PNG and now 43 to Australia ?

Multi culture appears to be failing badly where ever it is forced on people. Indonesia and Papua, Solomon Islands,Africa,name it it is a complete failure.
Now we have people wanting Australia to accept the refugees from Papua to add to all the ethnics we already have and the Chinese from Honiara reckon they too will come here. They are not fleeing from China or Taiwan but that appears not to matter.
The UN said that there are 37 million displaced persons looking for a new home, do we take them as well?
In the meantime the Australian Aborigines are falling further and further behind but who cares? We must be passionate for anyone but Australians because it looks better in the news

Excellent point mickijo; we can not be expected to address the 37 million, as Australians we must first support indigenous Australians for whom Asian nations like Indonesia do not seem to have any empathy.

IF you lived surrounded by Wallabies, echidna, cassowary, tree kangaroos, and machineguns - but when you flee in a canoe to the regional Commonwealth power - instead of sanctuary and the freedom to tell the world of the abuses against your homelands; the Commonwealth for the first time in your life flies you out of Australia to be again isolated from the free press on Christmas Island.

Thankfully the Commonwealth still has a basis upon law and had no option but to provide these indigenous Australian with protection.

But it is a shame that John Howard has seen fit to interfere in what you view as Indonesian domestic affairs by claiming Indonesia has a right to this part of the Australian continent, and that West Papuans have no rights to call for their independence from this Asian state. True that West Papua does not have oil, it has the world's richest gold & copper deposits and the world's largest mine which is operated by the US Freeport company and is Indonesia's largest single tax payer.

That is why Jakarta wants West Papua, and WHY the world's largest and most corrupt US corporate executives in 1962 help Sukarno blackmail the US government into forcing the Netherlands to sign an illegal contract to transfer West Papua's administration to Indonesia without the people's consent.
Long overdue that the UN admitted it too was manipulated into colonizing West Papua for Bechtel Inc. and Freeport McMoRan Copper and Gold Inc.
http://fandom.net/InfoKit

It appears that I did misread your history, Marilyn. I hope you didn't inherit your grandfathers penchant for lying.

@rogindon:

LOL, your comments suggests that the separatists are somehow a peaceful movement. How about the lives of many Indonesian men, women, and children who were butchered by the violent separatists? You don't care about them? Their lives don't matter for you? How dare you call yourself a "balanced person"?

HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES BY PAPUAN SEPARATISTS:
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel04/papuan062404.htm
http://www.hamline.edu/apakabar/basisdata/1996/03/13/0055.html
http://www.hamline.edu/apakabar/basisdata/2000/10/07/0013.html

Seems like the barbaric separatists don't care about human rights. Those Australians who support separatists directly promotes human rights abuses on Indonesian citizens! Indonesian govt will never allow barbaric Papuan separatists from murdering more Indonesian citizens!

@daeron:
LOL, you are very bad liar. Population growth of 8% per year? LOL, even the highest population growth in the world today never pass 3.5% p/a. Your propaganda lies are so far out they're easily busted, you fool.

@TheAlchemist:

I am not a Muslim, ignorant fool. Your speculations are spurious and indicate that your knowledge on Indonesia only came from WeetBix box.

1) Transmigrants in East Timor are very small due to limited economic opportunities in that ex-province, never reaching 5% of the population. Almost all went back to Indonesia in 1999, before the 2000 census was taken.

2) The 1.5 million population figure for Papua only countes native Papuans. Overall, there were 2.8 million people in Papua province in 2000. The 1.3 million difference are transmigrants.

3) Sorry mate, Allied soldiers who expelled the Japanese from West Papua are US soldiers under direct control of General MacArthur who moved his HQ from Brisbane to Hollandia (now Jayapura) in 1944. There might be a few Australians posted there as American auxillaries, but by then the combat was long over.

4) Indonesia is NOT an Islamic country. It is based on secular Pancasila nationalist ideology. In fact, Indonesia had crushed two violent rebellions by Islamists to establish Islamic law in Indonesia (DI-TII and Komando Jihad rebellions) whereby the respective "imam" rebel leaders met their end in front of the firing squad.

Here's a link showing the free lifestyle enjoyed by Indonesian girls:
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8772&st=2320

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/2005/6.html

Actually Leigh, the above case is one you and mickjo and others should read carefully when considering the case of the Papuans.

In this case Australia tried to deny status to Russian Jews because they could have gone to Israel. You will note that Kirby makes a nonsense of the entire third country notion. The family were here, they didn't want to be in Israel and we had no right to say they should be there.

That applies to West Papuans as well. As to my grandfather being a liar - why on earth are you worried about that, he lied about his age and nothing else - in the second case to spend 6 years defending Australia. Wow. If everyone who ever lied about their age got such censure we would be in trouble.

I was born early in 1953 and I don't lie about anything.

Leigh, you say that asylum seekers arriving by plane:

"are treated the same way as the illegal entrants, once their visas have expired, so there is little difference in the end. One group is just shiftier and more blatantly dishonest than the other."

This is completely wrong. Asylum seekers arriving by boat are put in detention, and under the new rules will not be allowed to stay in Australia, even if they are found to be refugees. Asylum seekers arriving by plane, provided they apply for refugee status within certain time limits are given temporary visas and allowed to stay in the community, access medicare and work. Do you seriously suggest that detention on Christmas Island and freedom in the Australian community are the same thing?

Also, why on earth do you (presumably) think that asylum seekers arriving by boat are less trustworthy? I think you will find that MORE such arrivals are ultimately successful than those who arrive by plane, who are often overseas students from places such as Bangladesh who would simple rather stay here.

Leigh,

Given your interest, you might like to know something about how asylum seeker's claims are processed in Australia.

People who arrive by plane, with correct short term visas (such as a tourist visa) often make claims for a protection visa. If they do so within 45 days of arriving, they will be granted a Bridging Visa A, and have medicare and the right to work while their claim is processed. They live in the community with dignity.

Compare this with people who arrive by boat, or otherwise without any documentation. If released from detention, they are given a Bridging Visa E, and not allowed to work (even volunteer), do not have access to Medicare, or any social service. Without certain charitable organisations, they would starve on the streets.

Despite this, people arriving here by boat are much more likely to be genuine refugees than those arriving here by plane with a visa. And yet we treat the first group much more kindly. Why is this? Because the Government sees it as politically advantageous to beat up on "boat people".

I'm not suggesting that we should be tougher on asylum seekers who arrive with documents - far from it. But I do think that distinction helps us to reflect on what is actually driving the Government's policies.

The Government's proposed changes to the processing of claims are a whole other issue. The most disturbing part of the proposal is that even people assessed as genuine refugees will not be allowed to resettle in Australia. That is a policy which implicitly supports governments who persecute their citizens. What message does it send when we say we will not accept people who have fled persecution? It says that we are indifferent to that persecution. That is not good enough if we want to live in a society, and a world, that is free, democratic, and respects the rule of law.

PTBI,
The population of East Timor has never exceeded 1 million.

Leigh,
Dick Woolcott learnt his Indonesia skills in 1974. I learnt them in 1998. For years, Woolcott went on and on about how East Timor could never become independent and now we are expected to just buy his sophisry on West Papua?

Dick Woolcott wrote in 1996: "it would be misguided to expect rapid change or serious instability in the near future" in Indonesia and that the next president of Indonesia after Soeharto would be a Javanese Muslim with a military background. There was, of course, very serious instability and rapid change very soon after Woolcott wrote those words and the next president, consistent with the plurality of Indonesian society, was a civilian scientist from Sulawesi. So why should we respect Woolcott's opinions?

Very good point, Rogindon. Wollcott's grubby mits are all over Australia's disgraceful policy towards East Timor. For most of the time in question he had the primary inputs into foreign policy. He was the man in the drivers seat. He was the one assuring all and sundry that he had it all worked out. All he is doing now is a rather pathetic attempt to wipe the blood from his place in history.

@rogindon:

Guess again. East Timor's population is more than 1 million people.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tt.html

Dear Susan

I must first congratulate you on speaking up for a group of persons ravagged on our northern border.

That being said, have you ever looked at the flags the West Papuans are waving? A single star with stripes. What is this flag? For those who know their history, it is the illegal flag of the longed for Republic of the South Mollucas. The flag represents the aspirations of a united country seeking independence since 1948 (after World War II) and includes territorial claims of the Moluccas Islands and elswhere. Therefore, describe this issue purely as a West Papuan issue is highly misleading. Sadly, nothing is being said about this fact. Equally, the lack of historical understanding of this issue is appalling to say the least.

This notice board is replete with calls now for 'West Papua' with obvious and explicit analogies to East Timor. People need to know the simple issue.

This current unrest is not a matter simply of West Papua. it is about the Moluccas. If these groups leave the Indonesian nation, the policy risk is that it will further radicalise Indonesia to Islam, further persecute the estimated 17 Million Catholics and other Christians and effectively destroy the Panscilla policy.

That is what is at stake.

Anyone hurting for these people in West Papua, as I am, want to see them live in peace and not be persecuted in this way. Indonesia's government is paranoid that it will see another significant province lost to a new country.

The solution, I say, is a UN Diplomatic Mission and raise the status of West Papuans.

RB

PTBI,

You said in your post that the population of East Timor was 1.5 million in 2000, but the CIA website you referred to says that the 2006 population is estimated at 800,000 to 1.1 million. Given the current high fertility rate, the population was definitely less than 1 million in 2000.

Resurgam,
I don't think even the Christian people in the Moluccas desire independence. But I agree that Muslim militia infiltration into eastern Indonesia is a big problem for the people living there. BTW one of the best sources of support and advocacy of Papuan human rights is from the Samoan representatives in the US Congress.

@rogindon:

LOL, read again. I said there were 1.5 million native Papuans in 2000. There were one million East Timorese in 2000, double the population in 1974. It is undeniable that the propaganda myth that Indonesian "killed one-third of the population" is absolutely impossible.

About West Papua, Indonesia is too soft. We must take a harder line against separatists to prevent them from violating the human rights of more Indonesians. Indonesian govt MUST protect the lives of Indonesian citizens!

Let's be honest here,the main reason for Australia protecting East Timor was the existence of oil resources which we a now share.

Both West Papuau and New Guinea are basically feral and cannot exist by themselves without an authoritarian form of Govt.

Again we have the the leftist hand wringing religious mentality that in the past were the hell fire and brimstone zealots who took no prisoners.

Religious zealots gave native poor populations better food technology and drugs to fight disease,yet under their religious laws refused them the means of contraception.They became damned to the traps of poverty.

Now we have and over populated world fighting over fewer resources and energy.The tension and pressure will only increase as instability and wars become more likely.

The non productive do gooders have a lot to answer for.

PTBI,
You are a complete idiot with a statement like this.
Quote, "About West Papua, Indonesia is too soft. We must take a harder line against separatists to prevent them from violating the human rights of more Indonesians. Indonesian govt MUST protect the lives of Indonesian citizens!"

Maintain the genicide and we will have half the population fleeing to Australia. You haven't got a clue how to handle people. No one would leave Indonesia if Indonesia was a civilized society that maintained good relations with its citizens. The reason they flee to Australia is because we do not murder our dissidents. Obviously you consider persons objecting to the theift and pillaging of their native lands as rebels to be shot.

In a world that needs peace makers you are brain dead.

PTBI...C'mon..out with it..ur really a 14yr old Indo student here right?:)

Well..you sure act like one. "My daddy is bigger than your daddy"...for any of us using such a lame approach, please desist forthwith.

PTBI you say a lot of truth, but in a way which loses your audience.

I'm still struggling to relate your own confessed 'Christian' position with the way you write.

I suppose the comments here tend to polarize people.

Transmigration remains the sigle biggest issue at the heart of this problem.

I never knew there were so many experts on our neighbours to the North.
I am sure that Mr. Downer would like to have many of you working for him (maybe some of you already are).
The boat people who attempt to get to Australia are not out for a pleasure trip in leaky boats, the reason most of them are trying to get here is because they have good reasons for leaving where they came from.
It is the job of the 'experts" in Australia to find out the facts of each boat person arriving here and to decide if they should be allowed to live here. The experts sometimes get confused and lock up or deport Australian citizens but hen nobody is perfect or accountable.
Many Jews perished in Germany because they were not accepted by other countries when they wanted to leave because they feared Hitler.
A bit less heat and a lot more light would be welcome in the debate.

@Philo:
You are a complete idiot with statements like this: "Maintain the genicide and we will have half the population fleeing to Australia. You haven't got a clue how to handle people. No one would leave Indonesia if Indonesia was a civilized society that maintained good relations with its citizens."

1) LOL, population of native Papuans more than doubles and grows at its fastest rate in the past 40 years of Indonesian rule, there is clearly never any "genocide".

2) LOL, 42 people (including one kidnapped child) is half of 1.5 million native Papuans? You obviously never passed primary school, as you are mathematically-idiot.

3) LOL, these "asylum-seekers" went to Australia NOT because they have anything to fear, but as a method of dirty propaganda against Indonesia. They admitted it themselves:
http://www.time.com/time/pacific/magazine/article/0,13673,503060417-1181678,00.html

Remember, boy. Indonesia know these separatists well, they are murderers, gross human-rights violators who are obssessed with ethnically-cleansing non-native Papuans a la Hitler/Milosevic. We will never allow them from butchering more Indonesian citizens! Indonesian govt has the duty to protect human rights of its citizens from separatist threats!

HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS BY BARBARIC SEPARATISTS:
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel04/papuan062404.htm
http://www.hamline.edu/apakabar/basisdata/1996/03/13/0055.html
http://www.hamline.edu/apakabar/basisdata/2000/10/07/0013.html

NEVER AGAIN WE WILL ALLOW SEPARATIST VIOLENCE! SAY NO TO BARBARIC PAPUAN SEPARATISM!

@BOAZ-David:

LOL, when did I say my daddy is bigger than your daddy. How old is your daddy anyways?

About maturity, I guess you will be happy if all transmigrants to Papua are forcibly converted to Christianity. Very mature thought indeed, very fit for the mindset of Dark Ages.

I wonder how many people you successfully converted to Christianity with such mediaeval mindset.

Boaz, Phillo, rogindon, Resurgam, perseus ..... et al

From another forum, in a galaxy far, far away ......

You will of course note that quite early in the piece I did say that he was just jerking your collective chains and pushing the right buttons - and by responding you were only fuelling his alter ego and of course EACH AND EVERY response was caustic and vitriolic - no points were ever answered and it is my belief they never would.

And then along came chainsmoker, who has put forward an interesting proposition, that perhaps we are not seeing past the smoke and mirrors. As a matter of point, I have come across many Indonesians, some have been very good and helpful, while some have been as useless as a folicle on a fundamental oriface - but in the latter catagory, their command of English was nowhere near the quality of this gutter tripe.

Ignorance in this instance would be bliss and if the fire is deprived of oxygen, then it soon dies out - and I am sure all will agree that debate without quality is worthless and the more often one view postings here the more I am certain that now my meanderings are like the chooks coming home to roost...

BUT .........first off feel free to borrow my brick wall here, http://www.manifestation.com/neurotoys/eliza.php3 - (Note: Eliza is dumb! This is common knowledge. Please don't write to me telling me she's dumb, or how to fix it. If you don't like the way she works, you can change the code yourself. Just view source on this page to see the javascript, and save it to your hard drive. Then do a search for javascript documenation, and you should be able to make Eliza act any way you want. ) SO ....whether you bang your head, or talk to it, the feeling and response will be the same compared to Eliza .... and it REALLY will feel so nice when you stop.

Susan Connelly:

A pity the points raised: 'Australia was found wanting 'resonated on deaf ears. Judging by the flak, your detractors decried your Christian morality rather than your frustration at the self-indulgent,duplicit,hypocratic Politicians. Without appearing patronising, dont despair. The ' jackals 'disparage not what was written - they missed the punch-line, instead concentrating on your religious persona. Stoically, St Stephen, Joan of Arc, suffered martyrdom upholding their beliefs !

Our Polly's have shown too awful for words, ignorance on Foreign Policy issues. Most have little appreciation of Foreign National's sensibilities, unless one happend's to rate celebrity status. Their annual tax payer funded junkets see them enjoying the sleazy delights of Soho,Amsterdam, the latin quarter of Paris, New Orleans etc.All presumably in the interest of ' improving International Standing ', no doubt ?

The Reports you referred to made shameful, nauseating reading. Trouble is, West Papua, East Timor, Aceh are only tips of the iceberg. Atrocities perpetuated in the name of 'democracy' have indicted the US, Indonesia,Argentina,Colombia, Korea, Iraq, Somalia etc and most of emerging Africa's new Republics, come Dictatorships !
The retinue is gut-wrenching and a sad indictment of man's inhumanity towards our fellow creatures. Not surprising,even the lowest animal kingdom - torture, starvation, rape, genocide, ethnic cleansing, infanticide, transmigration,holocaust and Rawanda is unheard of ! Beat that ??

For years Amnesty, Greenpeace and like minded Institution's have highlighted the scandalous conduct of these so called pillar's of wisdom, justice and freedom.These Country's make a flagrant mockery of United Nation's Principles. All are signatory's to the Charter and Conventions. Empty rhetoric and lip-service beats honesty and compassion any day !

Even though we brought stability to East Timor, pragmatically Aust harboured ulterior motives, going back to the Whitlam enigma. Geologists, Mining Engineers, Physicists have been aerial mapping, assaying Papua, New Guinea, Timor and the Soloman Islands for years. It begs the question of Aust's perceived ' altruistic ' motivation behind UNAMET's foray into Dilli. Aust Gas Light, in conjunct with Exxon Mobil (US) have expanded $5 B to develop the region so far. It remains problematical, even fanciful,

continued..

Dalma,

Under the agreement Australia signed with Indonesia in 1989, Timor Gap oil in the shared zone was to be shared 50/50. Under the new deal signed with East Timor in 2002, it's 90/10 in East Timor's favour. The Australian Govt intervened in East Timor only VERY reluctantly in 1999 as a result of the overwhelming domestic and international pressure for intervention including a 15-0 vote of the UN Security Council.

the average Timorese will actually see the 'petro dollar' flowon ?

Our latest incursion into the Solomon Islands, isn't about protecting the hoi polloi ! BHP-Billiton have substantial investment in "Ok Tiki" Bouganville.Gold, Copper, Silver is extracted. The tailings flow indescriminately into the River systems. Cyanide, arsenic, heavy metals and multiple carcinogenics pollute the waterways, poisoning the Natives, and contaminating the enviornment. Compensation claims are tied up in the Courts. Sinister implications of endemic corruption, money laundering, and Tax haven's are rife. A case of protecting Aust interest despite the hubris and overpowering stench of malfeasance permeating the Public arena, and newly elected PM.

P.T Freeport, Bechel have been operating a similar venture in Mimika. West Papua.The tailings outflow have destroyed livlihoods, entire villagers,and decimated the population bereft of Medical aid.Marine life has been systematically toxified. Great numbers of Indegine's depend on Fishing, abalone diving, troncus shell fossicking etc. Impoverished fishermen are being arrested and detained without trial or legal representation for up to 3 years by Our Custom's, and the RAN. Their rickety prahau's torched. Their fate and that of their families in limbo. Forced to borrow from shonky money lenders for fuel, motors and survival gear, their families are held for ransom. Forced to spend years in jail,away from their families, these destitute's have no way of redeeming usury debt.

The Red beret Indonesian Special Force's " Kopassus " have been incriminated in possibly every massacre, murder, sabotage,terrorism, slaughter of Political leaders, civilians, students, even Australian Foreign Journalist since 1965.

Successive President's,employing the 'death squads' have at one time or another, been involved in quelling public disquiet by murder and intimidation - that even rival the Nazi Gestapo exploits. Thousands have perished in Timor, Aceh, Iran Jaya, Ambon, West Papua, as the result of injustice's imposed by corrupt military Governors. BTW, we have allowed them to train with Our SAS in WA. The US Special Force's have undertaken extensive exercises with them since the 9/11 terrorist attack. According to the Age Newspaper, General P Cosgrove expressed misgivings about 'getting in bed' with his opponents in Dilli.

Cheers

@Dalma:

Indeed, white people are the worst murderers in world history. They happily slaughter each other in World Wars I and II, not to mention in every place they settle, they never forget to kill large numbers of indigenous inhabitants. Just look at the genocide of American Indians and Australian Aborigines. Only native people who can reproduce quickly and organise ceaseless resistence avoid the fate of the Indians or Aborigines. We Indonesians won bloody war of independence from the Dutch and kicked out the 500,000 white colonialists who had settled in our country. This is the only way to prevent the white men from stealing your land and enslaving your body.

And this Connelly is a queer kind of person: a war-mongering nun. What a goof! Fancy a "religious figure" trying to tell Australians to launch an aggressive war against a bigger and stronger neighbour, a war that Australia as aggressor will find no ally and a war you will lose.

PTBI,
Please quote the passage in Connely's article where she calls Australia to go to war against Indonesia! From the quote below of yours you are the warmonger threatening Australia would loose. Yes we will loose just as we lost in East Timor. Why because the moral right of the people saw we were there to give them freedom and peace. Indonesia was there to murder them.

Did you get your promotion in the military yet? I recognise you are spoiling for the opportunity of looking down the barrel of an Aussie soldier.

Quote, "And this Connelly is a queer kind of person: a war-mongering nun. What a goof! Fancy a "religious figure" trying to tell Australians to launch an aggressive war against a bigger and stronger neighbour, a war that Australia as aggressor will find no ally and a war you will lose.

So, PTBI, it is OK for Indonesians to kick out 500,000 Dutch settlers but not OK for the West Papuans to do the same to the transmigrants? And speaking of double standards, you forgot to mention the 500,000 Indonesians of ethnic Chinese background who were "ethnically cleansed" by your military in the 1960's. They had been there for generations but it seems that some folks were, and still are, more "Indonesian" than others. Or are you going to tell us that dead bodies floating in a river are also just another "quaint old Javanese custom".

And readers should not conclude that PTBI is in the military. He is far too jingoistic, and far too to reliant on outdated notions of numerical superiority, to have a real soldier's grasp of the reality of war. He has the strategic vision of a street vendor.

Yes, I think "Indonesian Ali" needs to re-examine his own country's true history...The dutch were vanquished by freedom fighters who bear no resemblance to the present TNI/Kopassus chocolate soldiers who have only succeeded in murdering defenceless old people, women and children .
They fled from the UN foces in East Timor led by General Cosgrove like the craven cowards they are.
I have ceased responding to his fanatical drivel as it is tantamount to attempting to have an intelligent debate with an imbecile

To: Proud-to-be-Indonesian

I hereby declare that anything I have written and authored in this Forum, and however remotely connected to you or your species, or used by you to push your inflammatory agenda, is herewith rescinded. DON'T use me as your scapegoat EVER AGAIN

Enraged,

dalma

You are looking foolish for losing your cool by being suckered by a bigger fool! Have you not read any of the cretins prevous posts? Why respond directly to a baiter who is deliberately lying and fermenting your posting and points of order into lies and putrid responses?

Have you no perception of it's aims to merely ferment trouble and dissent? It is time to wake up and ignore the beatings of an empty drum.

Free to borrow my brick wall here, you will get a more intelligent response http://www.manifestation.com/neurotoys/eliza.php3

Perseus,
You are wrong is saying that so many of the people massacred in 1965-66 were Chinese. PTBI pointed out in one of his posts that this is an often-repeated fallacy and I agree with him on that. I don't know enough about these massacres and I'm glad I wasn't in them, but I would be 100% sure that the overwhelming majority of victims were native Indonesians - not ethnic Chinese. It was a different story in May 1998 (I was there this time) when Chinese along with Soeharto regime elements were targets of mob rage. There are credible reports that ethnic Chinese women were targeted for rape in these riots, although the overwhemlming number of deaths were looters caught in burnt buildings.

@Perseus:

It is Indonesia's misfortune to fell under the cruel Dutch colonialists. From the genocide that wiped-out Banda ethnic-group in 1621, massacre against Chinese in 1740, massacres of Balinese royalty in 1800s, massacres in Aceh in late 1800s to the massacre of 40,000 South Celebes people by Captain Westerling in 1946-47.

The Dutch colonialists instituted system of racist apartheid, with whites as first-class citizens, Chinese/Indians as second-class citizens, and natives as third-class citizens. They instituted legal apartheid in daily life like in South Africa.

The Dutch colonialists suck Indonesia dry as their life-blood. For most of the 19th century and early 20th century, one-third of Netherlands national budget came from plundering of Indonesian resources. It was our misfortune to fell under the rule of these poverty-mongering Dutch!

These whites reaped the whirlwind, they deserve what they got. In fact, Indonesia is too nice by only expelling them!

Thank God for our military, without their self-sacrifice, our freedom from colonialism would've been destroyed by the 200,000 Dutch soldiers who invaded our country after our declaration of independence.

Indonesians realise our independence does not come for free. We will always

And still, Proud TBI, you seem incapable of recognising even a little of the same colonial exploitation in your own treatment of the West Papuans.

Rogindon, I recall, when in Indonesia in 1979, speaking to a first hand observer of what had taken place only 15 years earlier. And he made it very clear that most of the killing was not mob violence but carefully planned and systematic murder by the Indonesian Army under the newly ascendant Suharto. He also made it very clear that the Chinese community bore the brunt of the attention because of an assumed proponderance of that nationality in the PKI (Parti Komunist Indonesia). He saw the bodies.

That is also why the possession of books and correspondence written in Chinese, and the speaking of Chinese, was an offence, still, in 1979 and much later.

And given PTBI's fully evident intellectual blind spots, his claims that this is all a beat up should be taken with a whole barrel of salt.

thats ok PTBI we all know you have a big tuff army and they gave the dutch a tuch up a long time ago. but can you not see that indonesia in west papua is the same thing as the dutch in indonesia. I think most of us would be happey if pupua got to vote the same as the east timorese. but we know the UN would have to be there we've all seen what go's down if there's not someone from the out side there

@Perseus:

LOL, Indonesian rule over West Papua is as much "colonial" as Australian rule over Western Australia.

And again you are wrong, read rogindon's posts, overwhelming number of victims of 1965-66 counter-revolution against communist coup attempt were native Indonesians, who made up 99.9% of PKI membership. In fact, PKI (Indonesian Communist Party) had specific policy banning membership from ethnic-Chinese community. The reason Chinese language/culture were banned was because PKI was aligned to communist China, hence the govt found it necessary to prevent communist infiltration from China by cutting links between Chinese-Indonesians and mainland Chinese. The anti-communist hatred was strong because PKI had launched a coup attempt before in 1948 while Indonesia was still fighting war of independence when communists murdered many nationalists and Islamic clerics.

@captaincook:

UN already consider West Papua as integral part of Indonesia by two UN resolutions in 1969. Hence, UN has no power whatsoever on West Papua. As for what Australians think, well so sorry but we Indonesians value Australian opinions as handful of dust.

Australia brands Papuan separatists 'toxic'
Apr 29, 2006, 8:37 GMT



Sydney - The independence movement in the Indonesian state of Papua is a 'toxic cause' driven by racism that Australians should deplore rather than support, Immigration Minister Amanda Vanstone said Saturday.

Writing in The Australian, Vanstone also pledged not to allow Australia to become a beachhead for those plotting Papuan independence.

'Separatism is a toxic cause that could, if encouraged, result in chaos, death and suffering on our doorstep,' Vanstone said. 'Such a human disaster would mean a flood of normal citizens fleeing homes they would otherwise have no desire to leave.'

The minister's remarks came as the government tried to coax Jakarta to return its ambassador to Canberra and restore normality to bilateral ties.

Indonesia withdrew its ambassador earlier this month in protest against Canberra's decision to grant asylum to 42 Papuan independence activists who arrived by boat in January. The boat people claimed they would be killed if they returned to their province in the western half of New Guinea island and that genocide was in progress in Papua.

'All of these movements should be seen for what they are: attempts to inflame ethnic and religious feeling by political leaders seeking political power,' Vanstone said. 'So-called Papuan nationalism in Indonesia is based on nothing more than hostility to people from other parts of Indonesia. Such racist sentiment should be condemned, not encouraged.'

Vanstone added: 'It is surprising that some of the groups in Australia that lend support to Papuan separatism are groups that are otherwise quick to condemn racism.

Good for Amanda hey? Of course when Iraqis want their independence they are illegals too aren't they?

If Indonesia really wanted to invade and take Australia there would not be a bloody thing we could do about it and helping them to torture West Papuans sure won't help.

Now they are whining about sending our armed patrols and guns to stop people if they are being tortured.

What are they going to do shoot the Papuans out of the sea.

It is a sad place we have become when vitriol against ordinary people who want to live in peace is the best we can do.

Mr PTBI it would appear is an Indonesian by the name of Yan [Ian] acting as an undercover spy in Australia for the Indonesian military while working as a radiologist at Liverpool Hospital in Sydney.
_____________

On the 16th March in the university town of Abepura just outside the harbourside capital of Jayapura the university students held a protest against the rip off of wealth by the American "Freeport" gold and copper mining in the mountains of West Papua. A large contingency of police were brought in to remove the students and as a result 5 Police were attacked and killed. In retaliation the Military [TNI] moved in with force closed the university for 10 days and raided all the known students hostels and rounded up suspects. At least 60 were severely beaten ending up in hospital, and one was shot dead. About 500 fled into the jungle in fear for safety. There are rumours that 16 have since been captured and shot dead. Though the university has reopened there are at least 200 + students that have not returned to their studies and it is asumed many of these may flee for refuge in PNG or Australia.

There are rumours that the TNI will bring in the Laksar Jihad Islamic militia from the other Islands to train and equip the locals muslims to stir up greater trouble in West Papua.

@Philo:

Indeed, these barbaric separatist "students" cruelly murdered four unarmed police officers and one passing-by Indonesian airforce sergeant. Rest assured, never again will we allow barbaric Papuan separatists from murdering Indonesian citizens. The perpetrators of that violence against Indonesian law-enforcement agents are now in custody. Rest assured, they will be punished with the death penalty!

Eye for an eye, life for a life!

BTW Philo, how's the situation in East Timor. It seems like that "nation" is quickly turning into a failed state only a few years after being evicted by Indonesia.

THOUSANDS FLEE EAST TIMOR VIOLENCE
( http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A511DDE4-9D89-4564-A1AF-0510EE76DA0C.htm )

EX-SOLDIERS BURN CARS, SHOPS IN EAST TIMOR RIOT
( http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060428/ap_on_re_as/east_timor_riots_3 )

Philo - It is indeed unfortunate that the new nation is now suffering some disruptions - but after many years of oppression by the invading Indonesian barbarians, it looks like many of their examples of bastardry and revenge killing is still apparent and whilst the Indonesian encourages and promotes barbarians and criminals - the new nation weeds out the criminals.

If the bastard invaders had not murdered so many of the people and destroyed much needed infrastructure, the situation would have been much better, but as it turned out, it would appear that even now there are elements of the insidious Indonesian rabble fermenting trouble yet.

Following a closed-door meeting with President Xanana Gusmao on Friday, Alkatiri said the government had agreed to set up a panel to find ways to resolve the problem. He said the committee would be made up of government officials, religious leaders and intellectuals.

Indonesia invaded East Timor in 1975 and ruled the tiny half-island territory with an iron fist until 1999, when a U.N.-organized plebiscite resulted in an overwhelming vote for independence.

In a final act of vengeance, withdrawing Indonesian troops and their militia auxiliaries destroyed much of the country's infrastructure and killed at least 1,500 people.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060428/ap_on_re_as/east_timor_riots_3

Kekenidika
Your assessment is correct with regards to Timor Leste .
I might add that the sacked soldiers had permission to demonstrate peacefully for the week and did so. The riot started when provocateurs of non-soldiers consisting of mostly young unemployed taking over the demonstration on the final day even though Mari Alkatiri had reached agreement with the sacked striking troops to investigate their claims.
Employment problems for unskilled youths are more likely to be addressed with an increased budget next year now that agreement has been reached on East Timor's share of Timor Gap Oil revenue.

It is interesting to note that East Timor is not closed to journalists who can investigate the riots whereas this is not the case with West Papua where the criminal Indonesian military carry on with their oppression behind the cloak of censorship and their propagandists blame the victims.

maracas is right on the ball with the hole no journalists in west papua. if it was open to the world { not just australia } to come in and see a safe and working west papua then would we be having this talk? but we cant and we have seen how indonesia run's other parts of the world that are at our back door

and PTBI 1969 is a long time ago .and for some one who thinks our opinions are a handfull of dust you spend a lot of time reading them you should spend you time drinking beer and watching NRL as you think we all do

PTBI,
You are a typical bastardised warmongerer by your claim these University Students will be put to death. So you murder your intelligent dissenters under the guise of ethnic cleanseing of West Papuan independence "barbarians' [your word]. This is typical of the way Indonesia deals with social dissidenters. You follow the agenda of another madman Mcgarbie who killed all the intelligence that dissented against him and left his country in an unintelligent mess.

We in Australia live in a democracy not a totalitarian State run by military thugs and dictators.

Perhaps PTBI could explain for us all how many students need to be killed for each dead policeman? Who decides how many? Or is this just left up to the local commandant who just goes on killing until he feels better?

And more importantly, who decides which students get the bullet? It seems that 16 are already dead and there hasn't been the slightest hint of a Judge, a Court or a Jury. So tell us, PTBI, where does state sponsored extra-judicial killing fit into democratic theory?

And in such circumstances, one can only ask Amanda Vanstone if she would have offered the same advice to the Poles, the Norwegians, the Danes, the Dutch, the Belgians, the French, and indeed, the British, when Hitler's domination of Europe seemed like a fait accompli. Surely, such "toxic" notions as self government and independence would have been seen to cause no end of suffering too.

For her to make such a statement so soon after ANZAC Day makes it quite clear that the hideous woman spends much of her time with her head up her expansive derrier. Lest we @%&*$ forget, indeed!

@Kek-O and maracas:

LOL, blaming Indonesia for the incompetence of East Timorese govt. How pathetic!

Still trying to dream everything is nice in East Timor? LOL, ex-soldiers are now holed-up in the hills and are threatening guerilla war on East Timorese govt. Ethnic-violence between westerners and easterners are driving thousands of East Timorese into refugees. Still dreaming everything is OK in the failed state East Timor? LOL, you are just silly comedians.

EX-SOLDIERS THREATEN GUERILLA WAR
( http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,18920860-31477,00.html )

THOUSANDS FLEE EAST TIMOR ETHNIC-VIOLENCE
( http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,18983453-601,00.html )

@captaincook:

LOL, you are a bad liar. Any foreign journalists/diplomats are free to enter Papua province, many Australian journalists entered Papua recently. Not that these journalists really amounts to anything.

@Philo:

You dirty barbaric criminal sympathiser. These barbaric separatist "students" cruelly murdered and mutiliated five unarmed Indonesian security officers and burned their bodies! While, on the opposite side, there was absolutely ZERO deaths amongst the barbarians since our police are too nice and go unarmed and unable to defend themselves!

Make no mistake, in Indonesia if you kill people and mutiliate them, they will be tried and punished. Considering the violence of the barbaric separatists, they deserve the death penalty! Eye for an eye, life for a life! No amount of Australian threats will stop us from upholding justice and punishing these violent barbarians!

As for you, you are happy when the families of Indonesian police officers cried over the burned and mutiliated bodies of their husbands/fathers, don't you? You enjoy when Indonesian citizens suffer, don't you? I hope you fell into the hands of these five heroes' children so they can vent their anger on your face&eyes, you Satan!

PTBI,
I only have sympathy for the plight of opressed and bastardised people. You like the Indonesian military are incapable of justice and any understanding of human expectations for freedom and democratic coexistence.

No intelligent student even if a dissenter of the Government should be merely shot as barbaric. These university students feel the wealth of these mines ought to be used to develop the local people of these lands. This is what we do in Australia to the local aboriginals who receive royalties for mining on their lands.

The military obviously function with the same infantile behaviour as the students for revenge 'life for life' justice. It is time for Indonesia to move into a civilised world. The pen is mightier than the sword, as Jesus said, "those that live by the sword will die by the sword, put away the sword".

The rest of your statement is merely reactionary and not worth a comment.

Quote, "Make no mistake, in Indonesia if you kill people and mutiliate them, they will be tried and punished. Considering the violence of the barbaric separatists, they deserve the death penalty! Eye for an eye, life for a life! No amount of Australian threats will stop us from upholding justice and punishing these violent barbarians!"

Part ONE
Dee, Ludwig and all - a little digging gives some background on some bitterness, so now it is my opinion that not all it seems to be and while he castigates Australians as "genocidists" (sic) it is another matter for Indonesians to prostitute their own women....... and of course to rape other ethnic minorities – they are not real people, not Javanese - they are only Chinese
There are between 140,000 and 230,000 prostituted persons in Indonesia (1993-1994 estimates). Prostituted persons are mainly adult women, but there are also male, transvestite and child prostitutes, both girls and boys. ("Sex trade key part of S.E. Asian economies," Kyodo News, 18 August 1998)
There are at least 650,000 prostitutes in Indonesia. In 1998 there were 150,000 registered prostitutes compared to 72,000 in 1995. 30 percent are children. (Yogyakarta Free Children Society, Mohammad Farid, "Indonesian economic crisis boosts prostitution," Reuters, 26 July 1998)
There were 65,582 registered prostitutes in 1994. The highest estimate is 500,000 women in prostitution. (CATW - Asia Pacific, Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the Asia Pacific)
Ethnic-Chinese women living in Indonesia are joining mail-order-bride services as a means to leave the country. The Chinese minority has been living in fear since the riots following President Suharto’s resignation. Bobby Halim & Associates, consultants for immigration to Australia, has had its client load has jumped fivefold over the past couple of months. Other women are leaving on short-tern college course exchange programs or finding sweatshop jobs abroad. (Jesse Wong, "Ethnic-Chinese women seek to wed to flee fear, violence in Indonesia," - The Human Rights Information Network, 21 July 1998)
Particularly because of the economic crises in Asia, women in Indonesia are increasingly forced into prostitution as the only means of survival. ("Women - Last in, First Out," Associated Press, 30 April 1998)
In Indonesia the economic crisis has driven thousands of women into prostitution for economic survival. Although "streetwalkers" are prohibited in Jakarta, there is no law prohibiting the sale of sexual services. (Yogyakarta Free Children Society, Mohammad Farid, "Indonesian economic crisis boosts prostitution," Reuters, 26 July 1998)

Part TWO
The city of Surbaya, with tens of thousands of prostitutes, is the largest sex industry center in South East Asia, which consists of hectares and hectares of modest houses with large, plate-glass windows where bored girls sit waiting: "streets full of human aquariums". It is also a magnet for the divorced and dispossessed women of the strict Islamic villages. The sex industry serves as a source of women for prostitution in provincial towns, through a black market network of pimps. (Louise Williams, "Sex in the Cemetary," Sydney Morning Herald, 25 January 1997)
There are 12,000 to 31,000 people currently dying from AIDS every year in Indonesia, and half a million will be infected by 2000. Most women say they are in prostitution because they have been divorced and abandoned by men. Many divorcees are still young, having married in their teens and separated in their early 20s. Having lost their virginity they are of less value as second wives Most men refuse to wear condoms and if women insist, they accuse them of having a disease. (Louise Williams, "Sex in the Cemetery," Sydney Morning Herald, 25 January 1997)

Migrant Chinese Indonesians arrived in Malaysia in July 1998 as a result of the violence against them in Indonesia. Fathers have been forced to rape their daughters, and brothers to rape their sisters. The rapes are video recorded, and displayed on the Internet. Indonesians are pretending to be soldiers "putting red, green and blue crosses on houses"-red to encourage burning the house, green to encourage rape against the females, and blue to encourage stealing. At night they then commit these crimes. People are offering US$ 6 to rape a Chinese Indonesian. A Chinese university student is in the hospital in Singapore for operations to remove her uterus as a result of the damage done to her by being gang raped and sodomized. 5,000 Chinese Indonesians have died, and there is a suspected cover-up by Jakarta president Habibe. (Audra Lim, documenting personal communications, Institute of Noise and Vibration HVAC Research Programme, 17 July 1998)

@Philo:

LOL, Freeport already gave more than 30% of its revenue to local tribes and local government! No matter how much money the mining company gave Papuans, these barbaric separatists will never be satisfied, as they only want to use Freeport as part of their propaganda.

How dare you call these barbaric murderers as "victims" while they violently murdered and mutiliated unarmed Indonesian policemen? Then make the victims into the bad guys? These separatist murderers are just animals, around 80 of these barbarians are now in custody and are facing justice. These murderers should expect no mercy!

Your callous disregard for Indonesian lives snuffed-out by these barbarians just shows the kind of barbaric genocidaires white Australians are. How if a criminal raped, murdered, and mutiliated your mother and burned her corpse. You shouldn't press for the criminal to be punished, won't you?

@Kekendika:

LOL, calm down looney. Indeed there is prostitution in Indonesia like in any other country in the world, which is caused mainly by poverty. But Indonesia is nowhere near the massive prostitution industry of our smaller neighbours Thailand and Philippines, the favourite sex-tourism destination for Australian perverts. As I remember, Australia legalise prostitution and one brothel even sell shares in Australian stock exchange. Can I say this Australian promotion of prostitution meant Australians "prostitute their women"?

About alleged Chinese "rapes", those are just untrue wild rumours with no correlation with reality. There have been many investigations by Taiwanese and Hongkong groups, but they completely failed to find a single verifiable rape case. Ethnic-Chinese women in Indonesia has nothing to worry. In fact, Indonesia has the largest overseas Chinese population in the world (12 million people).

Here's a link to the happy lifestyle of beautiful Indonesian models, many of whom have degrees of Chinese blood in them:
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8772
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=72562

PTBI,
We well recognise you do not consider the native Papuans as Indonesian by your constant remarks and shunning of them as being Indonesian.

Your constant reference to them as barbaric separatists as distinct from them actually being Indonesian indicates you actively believe in their eradication. These people are native to this land upon which they have lived for thousands of years, you intend to eradicate them by military genocide, racial interbreeding, and the use of AIDS infected prostitutes.

We in Australia respect the native peoples of our nation and have no intention of genocide or their destruction no matter how much some of them might want a seperate nationhood. They are Australian and always will be. Your constant contrasting between being Indonesian and West Papuan indicates your racial hatred of these West Papuans.

@Philo:

You are fool, you fail to recognise the difference between Papuans and barbaric separatists. Only tiny minority of native Papuans are influenced by toxic barbaric separatism, majority of them are nice decent people who are law-abiding Indonesian citizen.

As for you, answer my question:

If a barbaric Papuan separatist raped, murdered, and mutiliated your mother and burned her corpse like they did to innocent Indonesian citizens, you wouldn't demand their punishment, won't you?

You put no value on the lives of Indonesian citizens, don't you? Just like you put no value on the lives and culture of Aborigines, you uncivilised whites!

Yan [Ian] I will be reporting you the Australian immigration as you live and work in Australia, obviously illegally.
1. you are extremely racist and anti-Australian.
2. you occupy a position as a radiologist that could be easily filled by a genuine loyal Australian.
3. you are divisive to Australian society by your attitudes and your undermining loyalties to another country.
4. you are here in Liverpool to spy on the Australian military position with contacts in Holdsworthy.

You will be soon receiving a visit from Amanda Vanstone's crew; so I suggest you pack your bags and go home ASAP. We are watching you! You are an undesirable barbarian in a civilised society.

LOL, you've gone bonkers, Philo.

My name is not Yan and I am not a radiologist. I think you should take some sleeping pills and consult a psychiatrist to remedy your paranoia, mate.

After that, answer my question, what will you do if someone rape, murdered, and mutiliate your mother (this is what barbaric Papuan separatists did to Indonesian women and children).

Proud to be Indonesian,
From your statement below is is evident you still do not consider West Papuans as Indonesian; as you define them as such. That is your National problem it outcasts Indonesian born of Chinese parentage, West Papuans of native parentage etc, in your mind they are not Jarvanese Indonesian therefore not Indonesian. I rely on equal justice and human rights before our civilized law for all citizens living in Australia. Australia is a multiracial society where we encourage social assimilation and community.

A murderer is a criminal regardless of race, that includes Jarvanese milita dressed in official uniform or not who shoot without proper court justice native West Papuans merely protecting their land and heritage. I unlike you seek no revenge killings, but allow Court justice to be employed upon criminals. We do not sanction the State killing of criminals.

Quote, "what will you do if someone rape, murdered, and mutiliate your mother (this is what barbaric Papuan separatists did to Indonesian women and children).

@Philo:

LOL, we Indonesians treat people of every one of our 750 different race and ethnicities as equals. We have two ethnic-Chinese and one Papuan in our current national cabinet.

We are superior to racist white Australians whose minds is only filled with racial and ethnic-hatred. You are a perfect display of the racist mindset of typical Australian whites, with your bizarre hatred of ethnic-Javanese. Your despicable support for the rape, murder, and mutiliation of Indonesian women and children by barbaric Papuan separatists is further evidence of your inferior and undeveloped level of civilisation. "White Australia Policy" and your despicable treatment of Aborigines is further evidence of the fundamental racism inherent in white Australians.

PTBI,
I have had several West Papuans live with me over the years while studying in Australia, several with university degrees in commerce and management. When they would enter the Universities in Indonesia for higher education they would be teased and called Orang Hutan [for the benifit of others it means monkeys of the jungle] and constantly degraded as less than human.

Obviously you carry on the same degrading view of West Papuans. You do not consider them as fully human so they are not true Indonesians. They consider themselves as part of Indonesia, but you would disown them because they want to protect their ancient land from Government theift and military pillage. Give them rights and respect and they will return the same - but perhaps it is too late as the record of the Indonesian opressive behaviour is too well established and the militia's pride unalterable to act civily with these people.

@Philo:

1)I don't believe your stories. You are far too immature, as you fail to see the fact that many white Australians displayed incredible racism towards those Australians of different racial backgrounds (Cronulla riots, White Australia Policy, use of "wog" phrase). Just look at this website to view how the racist whites viewed people of different ethnic-background: http://www.stormfront.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=117

2)Indonesians will always consider Papuan separatists as dirty uncivilised barbarians. We've seen how these animals raped, murdered, and mutiliate Indonesian women and children. You would hate people who rape, murdered, and mutiliate your mother, won't you? No stupid Australian can ever change our hatred towards barbaric Papuan separatists. Indonesians, however, are sophisticated enough to differentiate between the tiny number barbaric separatists and the rest of Papuans, who are decent, law-abiding citizens who participate fully in Indonesian national life.

MORE evidence of Peaceful Javanese Solidarity and Chinese integration methods – Dumb Indonesians fooled again.

Anti-Chinese riots continue in Indonesia
JAKARTA, Indonesia (CNN) -- Indonesian fishermen burned a shrimp warehouse Saturday morning in a second day of rioting against ethnic Chinese in a coastal town, newspapers reported.
……. Human rights groups say almost 1,200 people were killed in Jakarta during the May riots.
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9808/29/indonesia.riot/

Rape of Jakarta
May 1998
"During the May riots, with regard to women there was mass rape and they were all Chinese (women). We met many victims and it was clear it was conducted in a widespread manner."
"Secondly it seems to have been conducted in an organized manner."
- Radhika Coomaraswamy, U.N. special rapporteur on violence against women -

"I believe the May event can be better understood as state-sponsored political crime than a spontaneous racial riot. There could be elements of both, and perhaps many more. They might have competed in some ways and complemented one another in other ways. However, as a result of the long history of systematic and state-led racialisation, the public miss the complexity and tend to see only the racial aspects. It may have misrecognise the more serious crime, thus exonerating the real culprits, namely the state agents and their proxies."
- Ariel Heryanto –

"...but the idea that all Chinese are wealthy is an illusion. Most of the hundreds of shops destroyed in Chinatown were mom-and-pop businesses, and many of the owners couldn't afford plane tickets to Singapore, Australia and other, like the thousands who flocked to Jakarta's international airport today."
- Washington Post -

"Among the victim who were sexually abused, raped, were young ethnic Chinese girls. There is one rape case involving a 12 year-old. They were stripped naked, tortured and sexually abused beyond humanity. There was no security enforcement due to racial prejudice towards the ethnic Chinese."
- Women's Rights Monitoring Group in Indonesia -

"Some of the rapists said, `You must be raped because you are Chinese,' ..."
- The New York Times –

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/3233/

Indonesian Police Round Up Suspects After Violent Gold Mine Protests
Jakarta
17 March 2006

Indonesian police have arrested 57 people in the easternmost province of Papua, after clashes with protesters demanding the closure of a U.S.-owned mine left at least four people dead. A U.S.-based human rights group is calling on the Indonesian government to allow an independent investigation into the violence.

Dozens of protesters armed with rocks were injured when police opened fire and used tear gas.
(WONDER HOW ROCKS WERE SO EFFECTIVE AGAINST SOLDIERS?)

Papuans, who live in Indonesia's most remote and poverty stricken province also say most of the wealth from the mine ends up in Jakarta's coffers.
(SO MUCH FOR THE LARGE PAYMENTS MADE TO LOCAL INDIGINOUS PEOPLES)

The government has been fighting a low intensity conflict with separatists in the province for decades.
(SINCE THE INVASION ACTUALLY)

Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has refused to order the closure of the mine, which brings in the country's largest tax revenues. But he agreed to assign key ministers to look into demonstrators' grievances.

U.S.-based Human Rights Watch says the government should allow Indonesia's National Commission on Human Rights to investigate the latest violence.

Brad Adams, Asia director of Human Rights Watch, says any inquiry must be independent.

"The Indonesian authorities have a very poor record of investigating themselves, and holding themselves accountable," he said. "In fact, one of the main problems in Indonesia is impunity by the security forces, and so, it's not really going to be credible in a place as politicized as Papua for the government to investigate itself."

President of the Baptist Church in Papua, Socrates Sofyan Yoman, says people fear reprisals from the police paramilitary unit, known as Brimob, which has been accused of human rights abuses in the past.

"Now, in West Papua, especially in Jayapura, it's very terrible situation, very worse, because the Brimob attack the community," he said.

Human Rights Watch has also called on the Indonesian government to allow journalists, rights workers and other independent monitors access to all of Papua, currently forbidden by Jakarta.
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-03/2006-03-17-voa31.cfm?CFID=9791487&CFTOKEN=90123067

PTBI said'

"No stupid Australian can ever change our hatred towards barbaric Papuan separatists. Indonesians, however, are sophisticated enough to differentiate between the tiny number barbaric separatists and the rest of Papuans, who are decent, law-abiding citizens who participate fully in Indonesian national life".

It is clear from this that his concept of being Indonesian does not extend to Papuans who don't want to be Indonesian. Indeed, it also seems that the concept of sophistication is also limited to those who want to remain in Indonesia. Neat little mind trick, this one. If separatists are not Indonesian then neither he nor his government has any obligation to respect their person or their rights (nor, it seems, even their family). The demonisation as precursor to extermination is complete.

This allows him to skip over 40 years of repression and imply that the death of a few thugs in police uniform had zero prior provocation, simply a random act of barbarism. And he then claims that an entirely arbitrary and indiscriminate mass killing of anyone who was merely present at the demonstration was a just, reasonable and proportionate response.

So where can I make a donation towards West Papuan Liberation?

perseus when you find out were to send money let me know. all PTBI, {yan or lan} has done is made me need to help the papuan people. as one of the white australian { who whent to a school wich was 90% aborigines}I can see all the thing that we have done wrong in the pass but it was the pass .but indonesia are doing it now in 2006 and they think they have the right to do it . and I think it's up to us { australia} to help the papuan people as were the only one's who can. with people power not arms as PTBI would love it to come down to

@Perseus:

You don't care about Indonesian lives do you? You enjoy seeing Indonesian women and children being raped, murdered, and mutiliated by barbaric Papuan separatists, do you? No wonder, considering the genocidal history of Australian whites.

Rest assured, we will hunt down every single terrorist Papuan separatists. We've arrested 80 people who cruelly murdered 5 of our unarmed heroic policemen. They will be tried and shot. If any Australian decide to support the separatist terrorists, we will consider these white trash as terrorists like Amrozi or Imam Samudra. Remember, 50% of Papuan population are transmigrants, they will make any dirty Australian invader choke in blood.

PTBI – finally unmasked.

Sometimes I wonder why everyone is up in arms about this PTBI character and why you expend so much time trying to argue with a brick wall of vile ignorance and racist epithets.

He has run rings around almost all of you, insulting your intelligence and yet in the end regurgitating the same old trite racist anti-white, anti-Australian, anti-everything-not-Indonesian garbage and getting on everyone’s wicks AND many have wondered (OK – well I would say all of you have wondered) where he is and where he is from and come up with wild fantasies, which are just that – wild fantasies.

I realized quite early in the piece that his main aim was to sow discord and tension, many and you know who you are, tried to reason with him, only to be rebuffed and further insulted and whilst chainsmoker has come up with a reasonable hypothesis and put forward a reasonable conjecture as to whom he actually is, he also is not quite right with that either

You have all tried to argue against him instead of investigating PTBI, you have all tried to prune his leaves and camouflage, instead of getting to the root of the disease and like a weed it comes back stronger – ignoring rhyme and reason with a repetitive attack – all the while wasting your valuable time and resources…...

He is rat animal cunning and has treated you all with contempt (sometimes I think many of you really invite contempt) BUT what he has not been seen is that he has left a trail miles wide – and you people are so blind as to not be able to see the forest for the trees.

Maybe you are not as naturally devious as I am, maybe I am just a natural trawler of garbage, but I do believe I have tracked him down, for you see as it was said in a posting, is never, ever erased and to find someone just takes a little patience, so if anyone is interested in repaying in kind, just let me know…….

While our Indonesian thieves try to justify their colonial abuses; other groups have commented on Indonesian abuses:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2000/eap/707.htm
"Security forces were responsible for numerous instances of, at times indiscriminate, shooting of civilians, torture, rape, beatings and other abuse, and arbitrary detention in Aceh, West Timor, Irian Jaya (also known as Papua or West Papua), the Moluccas, Sulawesi, and elsewhere in the country."

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/eap/8314.htm
"Security forces tortured and otherwise abused persons. Rapes and sexual exploitation by security forces continued to be a problem. Prison conditions are harsh. Security forces employed arbitrary arrest and detention without trial in Aceh. Despite initial steps toward reform, the judiciary remains subordinate to the executive, is corrupt, and does not always ensure due process. Security forces infringe on citizens' privacy rights. Security forces continued to intimidate and assault journalists. The Government places some controls on freedom of assembly; however, it allowed most demonstrations to proceed without hindrance except in Aceh and Papua."

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2002/18245.htm
"security forces continued to employ harsh measures against rebels and civilians in separatist zones where most politically motivated extrajudicial killings occurred. The security forces also committed numerous extrajudicial killings that were not politically motivated. The Government largely failed to hold soldiers and police accountable for such killings and other serious human rights abuses."

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27771.htm
"security forces continued to employ unlawful killing against rebels, suspected rebels, and civilians in separatist zones, where most of the politically motivated extrajudicial killings occurred. There was evidence that the TNI considered anyone its forces killed to have been an armed rebel"

http://www.law.yale.edu/outside/html/Public_Affairs/426/westpapuahrights.pdf
"Indonesian Human Rights Abuses in West Papua:
Application of the Law of Genocide to the History of Indonesian Control"

@Kek-O:

LOL, are you threatening me, punk? You cannot tolerate different opinions, so you threaten to "track me down" to kill my dissent? What are you going to do, torture and murder me? I guess you are unfamiliar with the tenets of democracy. If you don't want to hear different opinion, go make your own blog.

@Daeron:
LOL, cracking-down on violent armed rebels who murdered those who disagree with their views and who engage in drug-trade like the GAM in Aceh prior to their surrender can hardly be described as "human-rights violations". By contrast, it is the obligation of any military force to put-down such violent murderer groups.

For instance, British army put one-third of its army in Northern Ireland to force British rule upon an unwilling Irish Catholic population. To crush Southern separatism, USA went to civil war, killing 25% of adult Southern male population. India posts one million soldier in Kashmir to crush separatism there. Thailand post 40,000 soldiers in Southern Thailand to fight Pattani separatism.

INDONESIA ELECTED AS MEMBER OF NEW UN HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION; AUSTRALIA NOT ELECTED

http://www.antara.co.id/en/seenws/?id=12447