“the church’s public witness in a world of competing interests, entrenched injustice and radical individualism.” The thing that I find funny is this is really a struggle between the collective type Catholics and individualism of Protestantism. While the fanatics on both side were arguing over who fault it was that the church lost it's way most of us got off the buss. This small resurgence of faith in the Western world is the old religions last hara.

Rod,
Perhaps these virtues need to be taught anew. Many claiming to be christian on these boards seem remarkably ignorant of them as they appear in the letters of Paul and Peter. But even Bonhoffer found it hard to sell christian ethics.
Peace and a blessing
odsoc

Whilst only reading in this forum for a short time, one is staggered by the number of individuals who have been infected by this teddy mind virus where these poor jellybeans believe in nonsensical teddies (i.e. invented gods), fairytales of gory mythologies and magic that could not possibly be true. These viruses are so well designed to the point that many victims cannot detect their presence so won't know it and may even vigorously deny it.

Based on some research, which is by no means definitive, we can observed that virus writers maliciously hack in on the vulnerable with great success and penetrate all bases by disabling mechanisms essential to human functioning. e.g. Belief stamping babies. Some are increasingly mercenary as they look for financial gain from their talents. e.g. Dillsong For these, success may not all have been a gigantic waste of time. However, what a waste of life. It would be a joke of cosmic proportions if it weren't so tragic.

Being an old progressive Catholic, I find difficulty aligning myself with the Pentacostil cult, which is Hillsong, A.O.G etc. To me they are merely money making machines, not that the Catholic Church is not, however I have had the misfortune to attend an Assembly of God service, and it was frightening. 700 waving, chanting, hypnotised lunatics in one place of worship. They don't so much preach religion, as religion and politics.

When the most popular faces of this cult are, Peter Costello, George.Dubbya, and Tom Cruize, one has to wonder what the true message they are preaching is? Tom Cruize is held out to be the bastion of morality, when he has obviously engaged in sex before marriage, having a fiance heavily pregnant, whom he expects to go through the birth in silence? Not Christian philosophies I was raised with.

Having one of these loonies as Australian Treasurer, and another USA President, with the power to order a nuclear strike [premeditated] even though he can't string a sentenence together is a frightening prospect to anyone who is concerned for the wellbeing of his fellow man.

Putting Dubya and Costello in the same tub as Tom Cruise is a bit rough Shonga. Tom-boy is a scientologist, whose "religion" involves belief in Xenu, the evil galactic warlord. Didn't you watch South Park the other week?

The interesting element in the mix is Hillsong, which you dismiss - as do so many others - as just a happy-clappy front for a money-making machine.

I am not part of their congregation - hell, I'm not even religious - but I do know a little about their finances. Much of which is channelled to some extremely practical "good works", such as finance for micro-businesses in developing countries, digging wells for villages, that kind of stuff.

Their school-tie network is amazing too. Bit like the masons, but without the handshake and the goats. Powerful stuff.

Does some of the money stick in the odd pocket or two? No idea. Does their use and application of funds look any different to the Catholic Church? No idea either. It doesn't matter much to me either way.

But what I have observed is that the happy-clappies at Hillsong look a lot more affluent than the Catholics of Bogside, and can probably afford to support their church much more easily.

Onya Pericles.. glad to see your viewing habits include that icon of social commentary South Park..and no, I'm not being sarcastic:)

I don't usually choose to watch it, but my kids love it, and if they are watching, I'll often hang about. Poor Kenny though, always gets killed eh. Kartman the latent Fuhrer and Butters the naive kid always getting used by the others.. and "Token" the black kid...

But that episode on Scientology was spot on... as are so many of them. At least they challenge the comfort zone of a lot of cozy beliefs, including Christian ones.

The Wall mart episode was hilarious where they destroyed the 'Huge Corporation'which had destroyed the stip shop only to find the strip shop now had so much business it had to expand and eventually BECAME a WallMart.

Odsoc
quite a change in tone for you... Paul and Peter were not 'selling' Christian ethics, they were seeking to build up a community of those who had given their lives to Christ, with all the struggles and life contradictions that frail humans are prone to.

Sean
I've been in a large meeting of tribal people which had been hijacked by AOG people visiting from KL and I shudder at the shallowness of a lot they bring. One lady collapsed at my feet with eyes rolled up, scarey stuff, but all achievable with some basic psychological ploys sadly.

The fact that there are 1000s of people who will say Benny Hinz and others are almost 2nd only to God just confirms the saying that 'There is a sucker born everyday'.
That they will believe blatant manipulation is a tragedy.
The 'destination' of the Benny Hinz's of this world is found here.

http://kingdomofjesuschrist.org/history.php (click 'next' to 2004)

This guy believes (or claims) to be the Son of God for today, which might not be worrying until you see he gets 'Presidential' Visits.

"Pastor Apollo received a revelation from the Father, that all power in heaven and earth and the riches, power, wealth and prestige will be handed over to HIM (that pastor) as the Son"