By the evidence presented the man is dishonest, the man is a crook no matter how much of other peoples money he gave to charity this man appears to be totally arrogant and corrupt. Look at those suffering because of his apparent greed and corruption. numbat

In what way was Ray dishonest? In the summation given by the judge, he said directly that Mr Williams had not done anything deliberately deceitful.

And exactly how much suffering has he caused? There is no doubt that many of us suffered some degree of financial hardship through the collapse of HIH (myself included) but surely no one has suffered more than Ray himself?

We need facts Mr Numbat, not more emotional accusations.

Dave: One of your church maybe? gave hefty donations did he - using other people money?
No dis-respect meant in omitting your title it's just the Bible tells me I have only one Father. numbat