As a parent of an Australian son who married into a muslim family, I have been able to observe at close hand what goes on. Basically you are right, most people are just too busy with careers and families to notice. But it is high time the vast majority of moderate and very decent Muslim people stood up and objected in the strongest terms to the manipulation and fanatacism that is going on. This includes foreign language speaking Imans in Australia.

It is high time they were instructed to only give sermons in English and if coming to the country as an imported Iman, English language capability must mandatory. After all, this now in what I believe is the position in Europe,particularly in Holland and Germany, after the appalling Van Gogh murder.

Secondly it is high time the moderates made their voices heard over the din of the blabbering Imans et al, and let it be known they object to extremist views of the Wahhabis, salifis and their offshoots.

I find it most noticeable that not one Muslim cleric has issued a Fatwah against Bib Laden or any of his ilk, and further there has never been a public demonstation by the moderates against the murderous fanatics, but there has been to protect the wearing of scarves.What does that tell us.?

Thanks for your article Irfan. I am always encouraged when I hear the voices of articulate, moderate Muslim people in our media. Your voice is an important one in shaping Australian perceptions and a healthy community. My assumptions about people of Muslim faith are certainly reflected in your article, and I know that Muslim leaders face an uphill battle in being understood and represented accurately in the mainstream media. But it is important to engage rather than withdraw.

Moderate Christians tend not campaign against hardline Christians.
Another thing to point out here that many people still believe the same as this Sheik when it comes to rape.

I agree with Kenny's logic, since many moderate homosexuals tend not to campaign against militant homosexuals...

I think both Kenny and Davo are drawing long bows. What Christian based organisation of modern times has an avowed policy of wanting to convert everyone to their way of thinking, and if one doesnt so convert, then one is to be killed. This latter point is the real differentiator.

What Christian based organisation of modern times believes that the state should be subservient to the religion, as the Wahhabis, and others believe,and actively propogate. The Catholic Church has in the past tried this, but has given up on it. But the muslims have not done so.There are many areas of strife around the world where wahabbism and sharia law are making inroads into the role of the State.

I dont think it is a valid to state that moderates generally are not prepared to campaign against the extremists.If they, the moderates do not do so then they, and we, are in the same position as Germany's failure to stand up to fascism. Relating this to moderate homosexuals not being prepared to campaign against their radical kind is trite.

The comment to the effect that the moderates will not say anything in the case of the rape drama, because they secretly agree with it supports my point, ie no demonstration by the moderates against these extreme views, because they believe it to be true.

Wake up Australia

Well it's about time Muslims stopped all this double speak.Who really represents the Muslim religion?Why was Kaiser Trad{who isn't really a moderate} expelled by the Lebanese Muslim Association that is now frequented by radicals? What are your real intentions?We have all this confusion and not one single voice that unifies your community?

The Muslim community must realise that they are either with the Australian Community or against it.There is no room for grey areas of division or uncertainity like the nonsense perpetrated by the likes Sheik Hilayly.

Unless your community expels the radicals,the majority of good Muslims will be further alienated from the broader community.

Perhaps this is their objective.Many have come here to escape war, yet are beginning to create another conflict in a country that has survived over 200yrs without a major internal conflict.

We are a tolerant country in terms of personal and religious beliefs but will not tolerate a religion dictating to us,how we should dress or what rules should be implemented by our Govt.

Kenny has got to be joking when he says, "Moderate Christians tend not campaign against hardline Christians", when in Victoria the Justice and International Mission Unit in the Uniting Church (so called "moderates") has done all it can to see Danny Nalliah and Catch the Fire Ministries, so called "hardline" or more usually "fundementalist", condemned under the Victorian Government's religious vilification laws for remarks made about Islam and Muslims .

Hi All,

Here are some views that hopefully addresses some of the comments

in a logical manner.

* About the media article:
I guess a socially responsible media could have at least either asked the guy logically if what he claimed is right, then why all muslim countries apply death penalty to men who rape then?

My point is simple, the media like to appeal to people's fear rather than thorough investigation of truth. Any muslim who read the Koran knows that it states "men to look down" if they fear temptation". It is a man 's responbility to control his actions and desires.

* ABout muslim sheikhs/ clerics:

The simplicity of Islamic teachings does not need a hierarchy or a structure really but there is guiding bodies (ie Al Azhar Mosque/

Uni where all Fatwas gets reviewed, approved and distributed).

Islam is really a 'flat management' and the relationship is between the person and the creator.

* Fatwas against terror:

Not sure I understand what do you mean.
I don't believe Muslims are confused about whether 'terror' is good or bad. A man cannot be a muslim and killing others let alone civilians. islamic religion growth was through the good peaceful example. The only case for war in Islamic teachings is self/ land
defence.

There are sure some criminals who did and will commit crimes in the name of religion but that immediately disqualifies them from being muslims.

Hitler claimed to be right wing christian and so those who killed thousands of muslim women and chilren in Bosnia, but I am sure no muslim will accuse the christian religion of non peaceful teachings.

Irfan, thank you for your very reasoned and reasonable, and vitally relevant and timely article, a great contribution to cross-cultural understanding and acceptance.

Kenny, I hope moderate Xns do campaign against hardline Xns. I do, and I know others who do, and have for a long time – I remember railing against Joh BP when he was premier of Qld (yes, I'm that old!). People like Joh, and GWB, and JWH (who won't actually commit himself either way, but hops on the bandwagon) who appropriate Xnity for their own purposes, and make claim to political infallibility on that basis (to an even greater extent than the Pope) are a real and very present danger. This is the time-honoured (honoured??) tradition of the “divine right of kings” extending from their “born to rule” mentality. They claim to be Xn and to “pray for guidance”, and ergo they can do no wrong, and make no wrong decisions. Their very certainty of their righteousness is their weakness. Anyone who closes their mind to other options, or the possibility of further information and never has any doubts, troubles me greatly. So too anyone who will not admit a mistake, or fault, or error (no matter how well intentioned at the time of committal), and say “sorry”.

Arjay, why should Muslims have to select one representative to speak on their behalf? Xns don't, as evidenced by the postings on many of these forum threads! Not only between denominations, but even within, as David posted above. Neither do the Liberal, National, Labour, nor any other political party. Human beings of all races, creeds, nationalities, sexes, etc are a diverse lot, in no way homogeneous, and that is our beauty. It is in that diversity our richness lies. A richness which should be explored rather than concealed, or denied, or derided.

Extreme Xns are every bit as dangerous as extreme Muslims, or Hindus, or americans, or australians.

The Aussie Nomad.

It is funny how the defenders of atrocities committed by muslims, are quick to compare them with christians. As if two wrongs make a right, hardly the logic of a balanced individual.

But as with all liberal chest beating, it is much safer to criticise their own culture, as Theo Van Gogh found out...

Oh Davo, please don't tell me you think I am defending atrocities (by or against Muslims, or any other group)? No atrocity anywhere can be defended.

My comparisons were not only with Xns. My point is that extremism is dangerous, and unfortunately, it seems that extremists of all political, religious and cultural persuasions currently hold sway on the world stage. Further, I should explain that extremism can be seen in all camps – the so called right/left dichotomy is that usually propounded, but it can even be found in moderates! Simply because none of us is completely singular in our thinking. We all have shades and facets to our outlooks and insights.

I am more than willing to promote debate on the effects of varying interpretations/understandings of the Koran and/or the Bible with both Muslims and Xns. I would not be on this forum if t'were not so. Unfortunately my studies in the Koran are only rudimentary, nowhere as in depth as the Bible.

For another view of the need for public debate on these issues, see “The Trouble with Islam” by Irshad Manji (ABC/RN: Booktalk 11/09/2004; LNL 04/02/2004; ABC/TV: Enough Rope 30/08/2004). She calls for debate by Muslims and non-Muslims about the public expression and perception of Islam.

I trust this is in keeping with your article Irfan. I'd appreciate your feedback too.

The Nomad.

Nomad,because of the ill feeling and violence perpetrated by many in their community,there is a necessity for them to prove their good will towards,Buddists,Christians,Jews,Hindu's,athiests and agnostists.

No other group has caused such agnst.The onus is not on us to prove our good will.It already exists.The Muslim community either accept the Australian culture or reject it.We will not be dictated to by religious fanatics,confused by double speak,or divided by fear of violence.If you want your freedom,be prepared to fight for it!

hi,

thanks for your comments, every1. i have not read any of irshad manji's works so i cannot comment on them.

for some muslim reviews of her work, go to the following url's ...

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/main/archives/2005/03/the_trouble_wit.php

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/main/archives/2004/02/a_multifaceted.php

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/main/archives/2003/11/thanks_but_no_t.php

i would be interested to read examples of muslim communities oppressing non-muslims. i agree that this has occurred. but i wonder how much of it was inspired by religion itself.

regards

Hi Nomad,

Unfortunately Ms Irshad is not perceived by Muslims as someone who studied or understand Islam.

You can get better/ deeper insight from "Koran for dummies", or other
US based educational/ analytical sites.
I support your idea for open debate as long as it is calm and reasonable (Not sure how you can achieve that:):)

Hi Arjay,

I can't understand your concern(s), you seem too angry with muslims for whatever unclear reasons and your history reading seems to be selective as well. All the best,

Rape has nothing to do with clothing, sex, or a woman's looks! Elderly women are frequent targets of rapists. And they are usually severely bashed first.

Rape is a criminal offence. It has nothing to do with sexual "urges". It is about power and control. It is about hurting. It is the worst of all crimes.

I was dragged off the main street by two men at twighlight (9pm) in a small country town. They dragged me behind a church. I was on holidays. I asked the locals if the area was safe before I went for my evening walk.

The bastards bashed me senseless before raping me. The police said I was lucky to be alive. I was wearing jeans and a long sleeved jacket. The only part of my body that was visible was my face and my hands. Hardly provocative!

Ash Koheil,if you are not aware of the division and hate perpetrated by a substancial number in your community,then we all have a major problem.You either confront the differences honestly or it will all end in a bloody conflict such as Northern Ireland and Lebanon,that have suffered for centuaries.Many have come here to escape this stupidity.Do you really want this?

You are living in denial,and denial compounds and reinforces this insanity.

Arjay,

I believe overwhelming majority of muslims in Australia are good law abiding citizens who interact well with the community. Can you be more specific about your issues?

Two points:

1- You seem to be unable to make up your mind whether the bad people are the majority or minority of the community.

2- Every community need two sides to integrate. I am not sure how
does incidents like the melbourne Evangelican church last year can help. Efforts should be done equally from both sides.

Nomad48

I would agree outside the koranic value there are different interpretations and sources for the Hadith. However, there are debates and studies conducted by muslims scholars (TV and websites)..
I can send you a list of sites..

Ash

Well Ash Koheil, the moderates need to be heard.Why are they not protesting in the streets against these radicals who are defaming your Islamic faith?If the moderates don't speak up,their silence is condoning the violence and disrespect many in your community are displaying to many Australians.Our community has afforded you with feeedom of thought,religion,job opportunities, social security and good will.How many of these things will you find in an Islamic country?

I think the radicals have the moderates too scared and this form of surpression will result in political,social and economic decline as has happened in Lebanon.

Arjay,

when will hindu moderates speak out about the sacred genocide that took place in Gujrat in 2002? when will moderate hindus speak out about the continuing genocide in kashmir? or the ongoing murders of australian citizens whose crime is to spread the gospel in india?

when will moderate catholics speak out against the murder of street children in sao paolo and rio in the world's largest catholic country?

when will moderate jewish people come out and criticise the crims of the israeli government and its defense forces?

if it is the case, Arjay, that you cannot hear moderate muslim voices, perhaps it might help if you were to take your head out of the sand.

regards

Arjay,

Adding to Irfan's comments, I thought you know little about Islam and muslims but as I found out, you know little about history as well.

1. If you chose to focus on few radicals and use them to velify the majority of muslims that is your choice. Don't hold me accountable for your ignorance.

In 1996, 8000 muslim women and chidren were killed in Bosnia by those who claimed to be christians. Brutally mutilating there bodies by cutting 2 fingers of every hand leaving only three fingers.

Muslims did not go around velifying christians. Neither were apologies/demonstrations 'denouncing' nor did muslims expect any.

My point is clear: Please think. Its your choice to velify us.

2. Most muslims countries I visited (or lived in) have religious freedom and most are preferred job destination for Australians (Turkey, emirates, Qatar, Egypt). In fact some muslims countries have more women in the parliement (ie 11.5% females in Tunisian parliement) than most European countries. Even Iraq's previous
prime minister was a christian man.

Dictators in the region are part of a politcial play after the collapse of British and French empires in the region.

You either know very little about Muslim countries or you are
reading the Taliban user manual on how to rule Afganistan or Afganistan..

Salam and have a great day,

Ashraf

To all who read this.Notice how they are using the words "to vilify". In Victoria they have passed special anti-vilification religious legislation supposedly to enhance social harmony.A christian minister has been charged for merely quoting from the Koran and is facing a $200,000.oo fine and possible goal.

If these laws are implemented in NSW,I too or Online Opinion can be gaoled or fined for speaking the truth.

This is the first step in the surrender of our freedoms.Wake up Australia!!

Arjay,

The incident in Melbourne last year was in my view an obvious vilification. Known fact that muslims believe in Jesus and the virgin Mary but have different beliefs on Jesus divinity and the Trinity.

If it is a so called 'an honest attempt' to study and compare I would have expected it to be around the theological logic of Islam, comparing the Koran 's story of Jesus versus the biblical story, comparing Virgin Mary story in The koran (which is a full chapter) to very little mentioned in the bible, etc..

The relevant priest had a choice of initiating a smart theological discussion but chose intentionally to bypass the Koran totally and pick up a 6th source hadith for an ill intention.
Unfortunately some priests sees Islam as a 'competitor' to christianity.
There is a lot of good common values and beliefs between the two faiths if those in charge chose to discuss them..

Muslims in mosques study good Koranic value and don't talk about what is in the bible though most know what the christian beliefs are about.

Hope the blinkers drop,

Ash

in relation to the 'catch the fires ministry' case, it is interesting to note that senior clerics from at least 2 christian denominations gave evidence in support of the application made by the islamic council of victoria. these denominations combined make up over 70% of australia's christian communities.

further, i can report that on budget night this year, i had a chance to meet the new senator-elect for the 'Family First' party. he is from victoria, and his number 2 was the rev danny nallaiah from catch the first ministries.

mr fielding advised me that his party distanced itself and rejected and condemned the comments made about islam by rev nallaiah.

the biggest enemy of prejudice is knowledge. this is because prejudice is an advanced (in some cases chronic) form of ignorance.

Hi Ash,
interesting to find you here debating on Islam and islamic views. I remember having same type of arguments with you many, many years ago.

"if all the sheikhs of Al Azhar and this one "atheist" were closed to a building together to debate their opinions, I fear all the sheikhs would walk out as atheists" by late A. el A.K

regards "atheist"

Hi Mr 10 years,

Not sure I know who you are by my point is simple:

We spend too much time and energy trying to prove who is right and who is wrong. Very few focus on what we have in common as humans.

Modernisation and secularism is driving extremism on all fronts.
Your statement proves my point: an atheist who believes 'he is right' and everyone else is wrong!

Compare how many statements about atheists trying to 'prove' that any God worshipper 'got it wrong' or religions followers trying to prove each other wrong!.

Now pause and look for any of these ideals followers are actually focussed on a coexistence agenda or human progress...

The world will be a better place if we reverse that equation...and by the way...I started by using my real name..:):)

Ash

Hi Ashraf,
and it is not Mr. Ten Years. The point was you should have recognized me if you read the quotation by your late father...
yours,
M

Ahaa...I know who you are 'Ms' ten years!
Longtime no see (2000)no debate! (1996 was it?) Hope all is well.
You got my point anyway.

How did you ever find this Australian site?
My email address is still the same..

Ashraf

I have serious doubts if there is even a "moderate" Muslim majority. It seems that 'extremist' Muslims persecute and kill, while 'moderates' make excuses, saying it has nothing to do with Islam and Muslims.

Islam is intolerant and promotes hate. Period. Or maybe it is just coincidence that almost all Muslim countries are major human rights abusers, that women, minorities and other religions are oppressed. No wonder they want to come to the West - and when they arrive in numbers in a Western country, they bring their intolerance and violence with them. The issue of rape is old. Do a Google search for "rape", "Muslims" and the name of any country in Europe (or Australia).

Islam is what Muslims do, not what they say. The same is true for Christianity and Buddhists and every other religion. It must also be said that Islam is what Muslims do where they dominate, not where they are a minority.

I don't even believe that Muslims want honest dialogue. They want to set rules so they are exempt from criticism, and cannot be offended.

Well, If Muslims have a right to be offended by what people say about their religion, I have a right to be offended about what Muslims do to women, or to other religions where they dominate. I am offended by a belief that calls itself a "religion of peace" and then immediately starts making threats (ask Irshad Manji or Hirsi Ali!). I am offended by a religion that states that "there is no compulsion in religion" on a web page, and on the same page says that any Muslim leaving Islam should be put to death. I am offended by people that say Mohammed was a shining "example", and do not consider the poor souls taken by him and put to death or subjected to slavery.

The fact is that the "muslim" problem is not going away. Within about 5 years it will become a major social issue, and people will get hurt, unless Muslims change and become tolerant. That probably won't happen.

Kaktuz,

In all your postings you are not suggesting any solutions.
Imagine if all of us apply the same: look for bad examples, trace them to a race, religion or culture. then all people following this race/ culture are bad. Let me see: in your logic, all lebs will be thieves, all vietnamese are into drugs and all christians are child molesters...hmm...let me guess: you are the only good guy and your beliefs are the best..right? we were all there when we are teenagers..that will create a beautiful society....

Thank you for stopping by,

AK

Remember this...

From
http://www.smh.com.au/news/miranda-devine/absent-father-who-bred-a-gaggle-of-monsters/2005/07/23/1121539188881.html

It was a destructive process, but in the end the legal system did what it was supposed to do...

The brothers' habit of videotaping their attacks as souvenirs damned them. Of course, there are several victims who never came forward...

But to their father, a GP in Sydney's west, it is Australia that is unjust... Dr K has maintained his sons' innocence all along, even after viewing in court one of the videotapes... It showed a comatose 13-year-old girl, drunk or drugged, and the brothers performing degrading criminal acts on her body.

During one of his sons' trials, Dr K revealed his views about Australian girls to a reporter: "What do they expect to happen to them? Girls from Pakistan don't go out at night."

In court Dr K complained his sons, "did not know the culture of this country"...

In Pakistan, "honour rapes" have a long tradition. In one case that has become an international feminist cause, a woman was gang raped by 13 men on the order of a village council as a punishment because her brother had befriended a woman...

Police say Dr K, 65, arrived in Australia in the 1970s... He went back to Pakistan to find a wife (who)bore him seven sons. Only when they were approaching adulthood did he bring them to Australia.

...The end result was that the four brothers became cultural suicide bombers. They destroyed the lives of trusting girls, damaged the dignity of the court and trampled on our traditions of racial harmony and respect for women while throwing away their own futures.

They mocked the court, demanded Muslim jurors and lawyers who were experts in Muslim law overseas. The oldest brother, MSK, swore at a judge, faked mental illness and tried every ruse to delay proceedings and wear down the victims. The mother of one victim tells of farcical scenes in court when MSK, sitting at the bar table representing himself, threw broken glass at her, hurled pears at the jury and tossed a glass of water at the judge's bench.

and so on......

Kactuz

Any religeon that divides people is not good. So far as I can see, Islam divides as does Christianity. The world needs to be rid of both sects.

"Most Muslims won't defend the indefensible".

Well I have to say, that is what I hoped would be the case, however I registered on the muslim village forums in Sydney this morning to participate in the decussions there and most (not all) were defending him saying that his comments were a lie and that he was refering to prostitues.

I posted that chanel 9 were in posession of the 17 min transcript address and that it was irrelavent what group of women he was refering to and that this beast should not be teaching our children.
My post did not even get posted and I was promptly banned.

What can I say, Tash? I've been banned from those forums also! But just remember this. There are over 350,000 Muslims in Australia. Less than 1,000 are registered on the forums.

Very few Muslims have raised objections to the talk addressed to them by Sheik Taj el-Din al Hilaly regarding the causes of adultery and rape.
Do they agree with him?
In a civilised society, girls and women have the right to be protected both inside their homes and outside them, in their schools, streets, work places, parks, and leisure areas.
The Imam, an influential and vocal leader of the Muslims in Australia, preaches the opposite. He teaches that 'women' (n.b. in most Muslim countries a girl is considered 'a woman' before her teens) do not deserve protection unless they remain at home, wearing veils and 'acceptable clothing'. If they do otherwise, they will cause men to attack and rape them and are actually to blame if such violence occurs. Since the Imam cites the Sydney pack rapes of young women by Muslim men, it is obvious he is suggesting that Muslim men are so lacking in self control that the sight of a young girl's hair or short skirt or the fact that a girl is outside her own home, socialising as young Australians do, was an invitation for them to commit the criminal acts. These rapists, punished by long prison terms cannot be blamed or held responsible for these criminal acts, but the women victims can. This statement was reinforced by a quote from a Muslim scholar.
Mr Taj el-Din al Hilaly must be reminded that in decent,civilised societies it is those who are violent and lacking in self control who are restricted in their movements, not their would- be victims. Those who commit crime are imprisoned or sent to psychiatric wards or confined in their homes, especially if they have problems with self control which endanger the freedoms and the lives of others.
For the safety of all women in our Australian community, Muslim men must be taught to practice self control, and if this is not possible or acceptable to them, their freedom of movement outside their homes should be strictly limited.
Never must the victim be blamed for the crime of the aggressor.
Jalex9