Well said. Thanks.

Hear hear.

Where does this new perjorative term "aggressive atheism" come from? It is appearing more and more in the conservative opinion columns in newspapers, along with "aggressive secularism". Is this yet another right-wing attack label, born in the USA, to be adopted uncritically in this country? What on earth is "aggressive" about striving to be inclusive rather than exclusive, especially in the expenditure of public monies that are contributed by all citizens, christians and non-christians alike.

People like Grace are the first to whinge and whine about discrimination and exclusiveness of any kind (and rightly so), except when it comes to Western culture and Christianity. People like Grace seem to believe we can only live in harmony in this country if we denigrate ourselves and our beliefs.

If we had more Mr. Aly's and less Ms. Pettigrew's we'd be alot better off.

Ms. Pettigrew's tid-bits just go to show that she has alot to learn about tolerance and inclusion.

Come off it Bozzie! I'm an atheist. I go along with Christmas, as a vital symbol of the culture to which I belong. If it was just about celebrating the Christian message, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it's not - it's about commercialism, and splashing tinsel around the city. What's Christian about that? Maybe it would be genuinely inclusive if we concentrated on good works and helping those less fortunate than ourselves. You see, being atheist doesn't mean being immoral, or lacking in compassion.

Splashing tinsel around the city is the way our culture celebrates Christmas. I agree with you Naomi about the commercialism, as do most religious people, (I think). However that is capitalism which is how this country operates to the enormous benefit of everyone.

I haven't heard dear Clover or anyone else utter one word about commercialism. They talk about "offending" non-Christians and not forcing Christianity down peoples throats. "Seasons Greetings" and "Happy Holiday" cards doled out by weak politicians has nothing to do with commercialism either. Just a smug little attempt to take Christ out of Christmas.

Whilst not atheist I'm not exactly what you'd call religious either. However the basic philosophy of most religions is peace, love, charity and harmony. Messages that should be encouraged no matter where they come from.

Merry Christmas to all.

I'd be blaming Charles Dickens for all the materialism rather than capitalism! He's credited with inventing the modern Christmas with his "A Christmas Carol", and despite the superficial spiritual trappings, it's about as materialist as you get.

Although I rather think that the original mid-winter Yuletide ceremony was also the model for a lot of what we do - mistletoe and all that.

Interesting article. I know fairly devout Hindus living in Australia who celebrate Christmas. Christmas is just an excuse to show your love and appreciation through presents, methinks. I participate in it, despite my sceptism of any god, because I like the underlying "values" of Christmas.

When I'm in India, I celebrate diwali, not because I'm Hindu, but because I like buying really loud and probably dangerous fireworks and then setting them off. When I was in America, I'd get into the appropriate spirit for Hannuka (despite not being a Jew), Halloween (I don't think this has any religious meaning, just an excuse to get candy), etc.

I recommend everyone take any excuse to holiday!

Bozzie had ample opportunity to read Grace's posting then proceeded to blast her for things she never even said! This reflects the Murdoch media approach to this matter. The whole Christmas/Clover Moore issue is a trivial beat-up. I enjoy celebrating Christmas but I don't need the Daily Telegraph or any other worthless rag butting in and pontificating about how it should be celebrated. Let alone spraying falsehoods and misquotes around.

"Muslims may not celebrate Christmas but it is ridiculous to suspect they are behind this absurd trend. ... An anti-Christmas campaign is more consistent with aggressive atheism than any Islamic imperative." As an Australian Christian living now in Germany I would like to thank the author for these words. The Muslims in Germany form 3.9 % of the population, the church-going and worshiping Christians about 7.4%. I do not know the statistics for those under 40 years of age but I would not be surprised if among them the Muslims already outnumber worshiping (not just baptized) Christians. I think the situation in the rest of Western Europe is not much different. So the religious — Christians and Muslims together — already form a minority, and we should not allow the dominating majority make use of the old strategy "divide et impera" . In spite of the shortsightedness of some imam preachers and conservative Christians. This probably does not apply in the samne extent to Australia but I think it is relevant.

This is an irrelevant issue. The council has far more important things to do than worry about making sure the christmas celebrations are religous enough, or not. Who cares?

Would not spending all the budget destined for Christmas lights etc on ensuring all of Sydney's homeless are properly housed and fed over Christmas be more charitable, inclusive, and at the end of day more Christian?

The whole Christmas celebration issue was created by Murdoch and pushed by John Howard. The idea that anyone wants to stop anyone celebrating Christmas is absurd. Why don't you Christians worry about your own business and stop worrying whether or not the rest of the world is observing your religious events?

The funny thing is that if people like myself criticise John Howard's policies there is always someone who says "he has the support of the majority of Australians so shut up." Well, Clover Moore obviously has the support of the majority of City of Sydney voters so will her critics put a sock in it? Unlikely.

I had an interesting experience recently - an experience that is perhaps a 'sign of the times'.
I'm in the throes of selling my house, and the real estate agent asked me if I would consider taking down the Christian icons inside my house...just in case a Hindu or Jew inspected the house and was 'offended'!!!!
Although the estate agent was well meaning, it occurred to me what a deep insult this was to Hindus and Jews. Because what he was really saying was that religious minorities (like Hindus and Jews) are bigots.
I don't believe they are.
I believe most of them have come to Oz to enjoy the freedom that we Australians have enjoyed for so long.

Perhaps that freedom has been ours, largely because of our geographical isolation. But now that the world is coming to us, let's not let go of that which is one of our greatest treasures - our freedom! Because the saddest words in the English language are - "Too late".
If we let go of our religious freedom, and our right to express our beliefs, we won't know what we've lost 'till it's gone!

Right on DM! We have celebrated Christmas for countless generations because of one happening - the birth of Jesus Christ. He is the reason for the Season which bears His name. Yet the paragons of "political correctness" tell us we can't have Nativity Scenes in public, can't have Nativity plays or carols in Kindergartens, schools or childcare centres, supposedly because they might offend Muslims, or whoever. Rubbish!. Spokesmen for Jewish and Muslim communities stated [Melbourne Sunday Herald/Sun Dec. 12] tht they were not offended by Christians celebrating Christmas. Celebrating Christmas without Christian symbols is like having a birthday party and IGNORING THE GUEST OF HONOUR. The anti-Christian bureaucrats who take it on themselves to decide what's correct and what's not, are using the excuse of multiculturalism to kick Jesus Christ out of His own birthday celebration. It's about time some politician with guts stamped on these jumped up jerks and gave us back our great Australian Christian tradition of Nativity Scenes, plays and carols wherever the majority of parents or whoever want them. Meantime, let's defy these arrogant idiots and set up whatever Christian decorations we see fit for a Christian celebration we love and look forward to.

Big Al and DM are quite a team, stoutly defending xmas from the dreaded "aggressive atheists" who can be seen all around you in the streets, in your front yard, and even in your lounge room, tearing down your nativity scenes and other christian icons. Onward christian soldiers. Let's get out there and stomp on these jumped up jerks over xmas, as Big Al suggests. That would really show them what the xmas spirit is all about.

Grace!! We meet again. Good to see you!!
The real estate agent was a self-professed Christian. But regardless of a person's religious persuasion (Christian, Athiest etc), they are still deeply insulting religious minorities by suggesting that they can't cope with seeing others express their religious beliefs.

Most of the athiests are far too busy white-anting society from behind the scenes to get out in the streets, peoples front yards or loungerooms. They use the excuse of offending minorities so they can remove any hint of Christianity out of Christmas, but since non-Christians are not offended what are they carrying on about? They're the only ones offended by a Christian celebration. They're the worst kind of sneaks imaginable; hiding behind minorities to push their own agenda. They are actually happy to have people think ill of minority religions so they can push their own barrow and have others take the blame. It's exactly the same as a child breaking the vase then blaming the sibling.

For people always claiming the moral & intellectual high ground it's very shabby behaviour that should be seen for what it is. Although, I suppose if all you've got to look forward to is rotting in the dirt after death then it doesn't matter what you do when you're alive.

Grace, I think what Big Al was trying to say was that us christians should not be intimidated by political correctness. We should be allowed to have nativity scenes in kindergartens and day care centres without worrying about who we might upset. After all, it is a free countrty isn't it???

Well said missantar. These bureaucrats pushing "political correctness" have destroyed the Christmas spirit in kindergartens, schools etc. Grace thinks I have lost the spirit of Christmas because I have been highly critical of them. I admit using colourful terms, but it's clear that they mean to undermine Christianity in every way possible, including banning all symbols and mention of Christ during the festival celebrating His birth! As I said before, it's having a birthday party and then IGNORING the Guest of Honour! " Political correctness" has even banned the sale of Nativity sets by one major chain store. What's next? Are they going to ban the sale of crosses on necklaces? This is how THEY observe "the spirit of Christmas". Christians should stop wringing their hands and saying "It's terrible but what can we do about it? First of all we must get off our backsides and let our politicians know that we are fed up and want DISCRIMINATION against Christianity in the matters I have mentioned, stopped immediately. No more "open season" against Christians .Write to the Press. Use Talkback radio and TV. The time for turning the other cheek has passed. It's time to stand up and fight.

A quote from THE AUSTRALIAN 17/12/04, that seems to confirm what Waleed Aly and I believe:

St Paul's Langmead believes the religious groups in a multi-faith society are tolerant of each other's holy days. "My sense is that Muslim and Jewish people are not against Christians celebrating Christmas but what is happening is that secular people are using multi-faith society as an excuse to drown out the story of Jesus," he says.

Yasser Soliman from the Islamic Council of Victoria echoes this sentiment. "It is not for us to tell Christians how to celebrate," he says. "We would not want to impose our faith on
anyone, nor have their faith imposed on us."

Missantar said, "After all, it is a free country isn't it?"
I thought so too, until yesterday's handing down of a guilty verdict in the Victorian courts, of the two pastors who had apparently 'vilified' the Muslim faith. Much of what they were found guilty of was quoting the Koran - they merely expressed their opinions!

From what I have seen and read, the Racial and Religious Tolerance Act in Victoria is VERY UN-AUSTRALIAN, and is VERY open to abuse by anti-Christian extremists. Yesterday's finding was the end of free speech in our fair country!

Has anyone noticed that the annual christmas carols that are telecast from Sydney and Melbourne, are holding firm with , if not increasing, their Christian content each year? I remember at last year's Melbourne carols, Ray Martin even mentioned midnight Mass!

Last night's Sydney christmas carols had the largest crowd ever! Guy Sebastian sang a song that had Jesus' name in it about 100 times - and the crowd loved it!!

Did anybody read Melbourne's Herald Sun Newspaper on Saturday? The article titled 'Scrooge is back in Britain' was most disturbing. The word 'Christmas' has been dropped from greeting cards and many other christmas traditions have also been dropped as so not to offend non-christians. PLEASE don't let Australia go down the same path!!!!!!

DM has raised the case of the two Christian pastors found guilty on Friday of vilifying Muslims under the Victorian Racial and Religious Tolerance laws. This is very worrying, as it seriously erodes our precious Freedom Of Speech. It seems they quoted many verses from the Koran [or is it the Qran] and this was noted by 2 Muslim converts who had deliberately planted themselves in the Seminar audience to "spy" on the pastors. Sounds like what happened in churches in Nazi Germany in the 1930's. In any case, how much criticism has been levelled at eh Christian Churches [especially the Catholic Church] in the mass media [not in the restricted environment of a Seminar] and yet the Catholics or others didn't run whingeing to the State Government!

These "Tolerance" laws exist or only one purpose, to silence criticism of minority groups by the majority of ordinary citizens and majority religions and mainstream groups.

They work hand-in-glove with "political correctness" to undermine Christian Churches and organisations.

This decision is an attack on our Freedom of Speech, and should be criticised in the Press and Talkback by all who value our traditional freedoms. Once we lose our Freedom of Speech, we can never ever get it back.

The irony is that this law was passed by a LABOR Government. How many times have I heard Left wingers proclaim how we must be able to say what we think. They used to love quoting Voltaire who famously said "I disagree strongly with what my opponent says, but I will defend to the death his right to say it". It's up to us to do some defending of our rights in 2004.

And where are all the civil libertarians who usually come out of the woodwork when issues like this arise? Isn't this just the type of case they would normally go to bat for?

With his very first sentence, I warmed to this author immediately, and at the end of the article thought to myself that, in the words of the poet: "Common sense ain't so common these days".

This issue should not be turned into a beat-up on multiculturalism. We live in a diverse culture - this does not mean denying Christian ideas, but integrating them into that diverse culture.

I am not a Christian, but recognise that Christmas is an important and meaningful time of the year for nearly all Australians. Repressing the Christian message at Christmas time will only result in an ugly counter-reaction.

Instead of watering-down Christmas, why don't we start celebrating (at least on a small-scale) other religious holidays. I am not Christian, but I love Christmas. Are we such a tolerant society that we could celebrate other religious holidays?

I consistently see evidence that people from other cultures and religions willingly accept and tolerate the celebrations of Christmas.

A boy from a Hindu family asked me to tell him the story of Christmas. His family bought a Christmas tree and displayed pride in their son's interest in Australia's annual celebration. A friend who lives in Pascoa Vale each year sees Muslim women buying Christmas decorations. As a storyteller I have told stories in East St Kilda where Jewish parents and grandparents bring their children and stay to hear the performance.

I am also consistently asked (by Australians) to provide storytelling programs at Christmas that do not mention Jesus, Christmas or Santa. On one of these occasions the group of children appeared to be mostly Anglo-Celtic Australians and only three Asian children - one Chinese and two Indian. I spoke to the mother of the Indian children after the session. She told me her son was in Prep and no longer in pre school but he had stayed away from school to attend the storytelling with his sister. He wanted to hear the stories of Christmas. He clearly enjoyed the session but he did not hear the story of Christmas. Ironically he (or at least his sister) must have been one of the children the organisers decided would not want to hear the traditional stories of Christmas.

People who act on the assumption they are doing good deeds without stopping to think would do well to slow down, ask questions and consider the long term consequences of their actions. Less help more heed is required I think.

I refer DM and Big Al to todays Online Opinion piece about the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal decision. It was by none other than Waleed Aly, who they so heartily applaud on this page, and it reveals how the hateful pastors concerned did far more than simply "quote the Quran."

stevedziedzic, I would like to see the text of the verses from the Quran which they read out published in the Press and on this site. Are you game? Is Waleed Aly game? Is anyone in the Muslim camp game? I hope asking these questions won't bring the Religious and Racial Police to my door.

Andrew Bolt had a very good article in the 'Herald Sun' called 'Playing with Fire' (22/12/04)
http://heraldsun.news.com.au/sectionindex1/0,5442,dhs_andrewbolt^TEXT^heraldsun,00.html
It's definitely worth a read.

Challenge accepted, Big Al. I looked up the transcripts of the case.

What did the good pastor actually say? I’ve taken just two verbatim snippets out of his tirade, and believe me, they’re representative. If anyone else can swallow their disgust for long enough they are more than welcome to doublecheck the sermon on the VCAT website. There’s a link to this case on its homepage.

“The truth will set you free, but Muslim people, when they come to some teaching they don’t like (in the Koran)- people, you know they will not tell the truth. They will not tell the truth, they will hide the truth. They will tell lies.”
(40 10a)

[The Koran says that] if you don’t become a Muslim you’re head should be chopped off… so that’s Islam. OK. So this is, we need to be aware that Muslims have not forgotten the definition. They know what it means, but they will not tell you what it means, unless appropriate time.”
(40 10e)

This is not just “quoting the Koran.” This is baseless and vicious misrepresentation and incitement to hatred. If someone accused all Christians of a homogenous and violent fundamentalism there would be uproar. If a Muslim speaker said that Christians had a collective inability to read the Bible faithfully and had ominous plans to hide their faith’s inherent violence until the “appropriate time” there would (rightly) be bedlam.

The decision should stand.

When Oliver Cromwell took over England in 1645, Christmas was cancelled as part of a Puritan effort to rid the country of decadence. This proved unpopular, and when Charles II was restored to the throne, he restored the celebration. The Pilgrims, a group of Puritanical English separatists who came to North America in 1620, also disapproved of Christmas, and as a result it was not a holiday in early America. The celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed from 1659 to 1681 in Boston, a prohibition enforced with a fine of five shillings. The people of the Jamestown settlement, on the other hand, celebrated the occasion freely. Christmas fell out of favor again after the American Revolution, as it was considered an "English custom", and it was not declared a federal holiday in the United States until June 26, 1870. (Wikipedia).

STEVEDZIEDZIC you say you have accepted my chllenge, but you didn't deliver. What I wnat to see is the EXACT TEXTS OF THE VERSES IN THE QURAN AND OTHER LITERATURE WHICH WERE READ OUT. WHAT WAS IN THEM TO CAUSE ALL THIS TROUBLE? THIS IS THE STARTING POINT. UNLESS WE KNOW THIS INFORMATION, WE CAN'T REALLY GIVE AN INFORMATIVE OPINION ON THE DETAILS OF THIS CASE. We can argue on the principles of Free Speech, but we can't get into the heart of this matter unless we have the above information. WHY CAN'T WE GET IT? ARE THE AUTHORITIES TOO SCARED?

Big Al, it is not a breach of the constitutional right of free speech to quote sections of the Koran for the purposes of information, research, study and discussion, but it is a crime against the relevant legislation to misrepresent such quotations for the purposes of racial vilification. GET THE DIFFERENCE?

Look it up on the internet yourself, most of interested enough have already done so. There is no conspiracy to keep you in the dark, Big Al, just turn the lights on.

Religion is something that has long been used as an excuse for hatred and fear, and it saddens me that the same thing seems to still happen today.

Surely every person has the right to hold whatever religious beliefs they might choose to, without vilification or prosecution. Although I am not Christian, I think that everyone who is has the right to celebrate their faith, while I celebrate the pagan origins of Xmas. I am not insulted by people of other faiths worshipping in whatever manner that they chose to - whether in public or in private - as, if anything, I have the chance to learn about their beliefs through such celebrations if I so choose. The one thing I do object to however is people trying to force their religion onto other people - and I think that many people might be confused by these two things, and think that just because someone celebrates their religion in public they are trying to force others to do the same.

Religion should be a private matter between a person and their chosen deity (if they indeed chose to have a religion), and like every other right, people should be allowed to enjoy their beliefs so long as they do not impose on the rights of other people to do the same. Religion is inside anyway, and all the censorship in the world can not take away someone's private faith. We all have rights to our own beliefs, and rights to think what we choose. No one can take away the meaning of Xmas to a Christian - whether a thousand commercial Santas are erected, or a thousand bought nativity scenes - and equally, all the images of a little baby Jesus will not make me convert - so in many ways, it does not matter how PC things become...

Have a nice day everyone.

Suse