And at the top of the problem list, is the political process, guided by another tantramonous collective, incapable of confronting tantramonous minorities.

Try working in a uni these days. You can be shouted down by an interest group (check Bob Carr and his well-funded Australia-China Research Centre that's funded by untold Chinese millions). You may also not be able to speak up against the victim groups (there are so many!).
Some good points here.

Wow. " .... only those who feel oppressed" ? Well, don't we all at some point ? Too old, too fat, left-handed, ginger, harassed by banks or debt-collectors, etc. So who isn't in a minority these days ?

But one corollary of not being able to speak if one hasn't been oppressed in a certain way, and "therefore can't understand" is that we can all abdicate from getting involved with that particular 'oppressed group" - we don't have to give a toss about their tribulations if we will never understand them.

But we have to resist constant efforts to create ever more interest groups, seeking to rent out those tribulations, i.e. to be paid somehow, if only in public outpourings of grief and solidarity, for the evils of an uncaring world. When people campaign that Black Lives Matter, we should expand it to "All Lives Matter". We should be concerned about ALL "deaths in custody", since they are in no way disproportionately Indigenous.

Yes, of course, where we find disproportionate incidences of abuse, neglect, oppression, violence, corruption and incompetence, then of course there should be complaints. If, as Philip Adams maintains, there is as much child neglect and domestic violence in Mosman or Toorak as there is in remote Indigenous 'communities', then it should be fearlessly exposed. There should be marches through Mosman and Toorak to denounce the unacceptably high levels of neglect, abuse and violence there NOW !

Joe

yep we need to be able to speak to all the potential children at risk of suicide because they are denied a mother or father. Since about 90% of men in prison are fatherless or at least disconnected from their fathers you would think we might learn something. Oh no its all about the 'suicide card' for those wanting to destroy the natural family. Just ask the promoters of unsafe schools and the abc. They could not be wrong could they.

Only a certain group - self-identified 'victims' "should be permitted" to write about themselves? Well, anybody should, and is, 'permitted' to write about anything and everything. Whether or not anybody else reads what they write or cares about it - well no permission or obligation exists there either. The clown referred to in this article is a flag bearer for Marxist oppression of the majority in aid of a pathetic minority.

Hello Michael Thompson.

I saw the words "Integrity and identity" on the articles main page which hooked my attention. I was going to track down the 'disconnected from reality' responses to my comments yesterday. I thought, well this might have some juice in it so I had a look.

When you say: "History is full of stories where leaders amongst the majority in society have fought for the rights of minority groups and won. It is a fact of life that some have more power than others and this is not necessarily a bad thing when power is used appropriately. Some leaders have used their power and influence for good and brought about real change."

This appears true to me. It was very well put.

I know 'writers' and 'fiction writers' especially are also 'artists'. Artists have doing their 'thing' since adam was a boy. They navel gaze and observe the human condition. Some 'artistic' comments are good and some are crap. It happens.

Never heard of 'Lionel Shriver' nor several walked out on her talk UNTIL I READ YOUR ARTICLE.

Didn't know this 'wow' moment was written up by Yassmin Abdel-Magied, Yen-Rong Wong & others, Brisbane Times, The Guardian, NYTs, SMH, twitter, bloggers, nor by yourself. I searched the news to find WTF are these people.

Now I have a question: WGAF and why? :)

Another: What difference does any of this make, and why on Earth is anyone, anywhere, yourself included, even bothering to talk about it?

I'm reminded of a well-known event in most parents lives. It's after noon their teenage son is still sleeping. They walk into their 'personal space' bedroom, open up the curtains - the comes light in, open the windows - the stink goes out - they say quite loudly - "WAKE UP, GET UP, AND DO SOMETHING USEFUL!"

Considering that truism, I put this to you and your readers Michael:

"In your own life, what would you like to see happen?"
-

Thomas:

You have gone to a lot of trouble just to say this issue does not matter. Haven't you got anything better to do?

It's just a little more complex than the simplistic rationale the Author describes?

People doing it tough, like some drought stricken or dairy farmers often see themselves as failures? When they can't do what generations in the past managed to do with far less!?

Fiercely independent, they don't like begging! Given this transfers their independance and the fleeting remnants of their personal power to the "good samaritan"? And the reason for the huge suicide rate, (four farmers a week?) during the height of the worst drought in living memory!

Or the well publicized case of a bloke choosing to top himself rather than let a gas company explore his holding! Note the term holding as opposed to his land!

This is where it gets complex with numerous actors and activists all trying to ride on the coattails of the depressed and downtrodden to progress a political agenda or belief system/cover diabolical financial or dubious politically motivated advice, replete with a hidden agenda/no perceived or actual integrity?

Rather than shut the gate, we should welcome gas well drilling? The first reason being for sound commercial reasons! The second being recent advances in new technology desalination turns around 95% of the recovered salt water into potable water eminently suitable for host of cost effective affordable irrigation projects!

Which then lays an envelope of fresh on the water table, forcing any salt further down! And a win/win for the economy, the farmer, the financiers and the environment! Particularly if the favorable gas well terms are made public and become the benchmark for other deals?

That said, as someone whose back was broken in five places a problem further compounded by a stroke! I understand just how difficult it is for a proud and fiercely independent man to accept even well intentioned help, let alone proffered assistance/personally demeaning control freak abuse, that comes with strings!

i.e., the man will cease and desist his choice related advocacy and return to the fold! The fold being sheep, where the blind lead the blind!
Alan B.

Hey Thomas,
Good to see you're out and about.
I'd hate for you to do your head in restricting yourself to all that climate change nonsense.
Have to agree with you, cant see any point in this article except to anger me after reading about Yassmin Abdel-Magied and her life of 'so-called' oppression.

Her receiving Queenslander of the year award when she wasn't even born in Australia makes me feel oppressed.
As does her promotion of Sharia law also makes me feel oppressed.
I feel both oppressed and offended just reading about her.
She asks "What does my headscarf mean to you?"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-12/yassmin-abdel-magied-book-memoir-islamic-youth-leader/7160458
Well for me it means she'll never be a true blue Aussie, no matter what any piece of paper says.
I can't very well sit down with a Muslim over lunch and have a good old whinge about the Islamification of my country can I?

I heard this guy and read a few of his writings. He's a Philosopher by Trade? (or he should be lol) And this guy in the interview below sums my thoughts about free speech and taking unnecessary offense.

However I still don't see any problems with 18C/18D. Bolt only needed to write a better article continuing the same facts he was all so offended about.

Writer and critic Richard King believes that Australians have become too quick to take offence.

"On freedom of speech and the freedom to offend"
ABC Richard Glover Conversations
Broadcast date: Monday 18 November, 2013

Richard King argues in his new book that there is a new mood of self-pity and self-righteousness.

People are now more likely to parade their hurt feelings in public, which is poisoning debate. Richard says freedom of speech means nothing without the freedom to offend.
http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2013/11/18/3893227.htm?site=conversations

"On Offence: The Politics of Indignation" is published by Scribe.

( eg everyone has different tastes in humour - I'm always laughing at my own jokes, don't you? )

My son told me this story about an interview recently, where someone was asking about what is 'culturally' appropriate, like is it ok for primary school kids to do 'dots' paintings at school like aboriginal art works does it. Was that ok?

We both lol at the silliness of it all, because the interviewer was really serious in the questions. worrying about where's the line with no being offended or invading upon someone else's 'owned' heritage style etc. But, there's always a line between a little offense bad taste and being abusive or harassing/bullying. It moves about a lot though. (smile)
-

You can either listen to each Conversations interview by clicking on the audio or you can download each interview as an mp3 by right clicking on the blue heading under the audio.

I haven't read or heard Shriver's comments, but if the article reflects them, then I think they are entirely reasonable.

Far too often issues of social justice become wrapped up in the identity of some particularly vocal group or other that has colonised the space and becomes a defacto "leadership", often attracting considerable funding that has few strings.

The model was formalised by Saul Alinsky, in his "Rules for Radicals", but it has been expanded as some of these groups become structural features of the political landscape - hardly "radicals", but reliant on a carefully manicured public outrage at the plight of the members of the particular community of disadvantage they claim to act for. The worst aspect of this is that it tends to perpetuate that disadvantage in some parts of the community: there's no smoke without fire, so the fire must never be allowed to be extinguished, no matter how feeble. A few well-considered puffs of hot air can soon bring it back to a sputtering display of smoky glory whenever funding is running a bit low.

The problem, in other words, is not who is doing the speaking per se, but how to ensure that they are ethical and honest in so doing. I think we could take some useful instruction from behavioural economics in that.

@phanto, Great comment and question. Ironic isn't it? :-)

A subtle hint (I admit) on all media, politicians, marketers and commentators engaged in swaying 'public opinion' was in: "I saw the words 'Integrity and identity' on the articles main page which hooked my attention."

Words act like 'baited hooks' to catch a fish. Beware of manipulation from all sides of an issue.
-

"The fold being sheep, where the blind lead the blind!" Alan B.
Yes Alan I agree.

-

@Armchair Critic: "I can't very well sit down with a Muslim over lunch and have a good old whinge about the Islamification of my country can I?"

Sure you can. First compile the solid evidence to support your belief of "the Islamification of my country", then go find a Muslim.

Muslims are similar to Aboriginals and Jews ime, more open to 'deep and meaningful' discussions than the average angry white fella feeling threatened by 'diveristy' and poor logic.

My first contact with Muslim Immigrants was back in the mid-80s at work. There was nothing wrong with them then. Were Australian as I was (but didn't drink alcohol) decent, honest, hard working, respectful of others, live and let live etc.

Gosh they weren't any different than Lebanese Christians or Orthodox Greeks I knew. The only difference was their chosen religious beliefs which was and still should be irrelevant in our secular country.

I have seen nothing to change my mind since. I reject fanatical extremism, fraudulent ideologies, violent criminals and terrorism no matter who does it.

The Law treats all citizens the same. A criminal will be and should be dealt with the same way, even an Irishman called Paddy who maybe undercover for the 'Real IRA' ready to pounce at a moment's notice. (so be scared and vigilant)

Maybe try being more like Lady Justice? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Justice

-

@Craig Minns" "Saul Alinsky, in his "Rules for Radicals", "

I agree Craig. Alinsky rocks!

Hmmm... Well you know how you get your panties all up in a bunch over climate change?

I kind of have the same problem with these religious nutjubs running around my country stabbing people 1 to 100 times and screaming Allah Ackbar for no explainable reason.

I don't want to discriminate against anyone, but honestly their belief system sucks if they think its good to stab Australians in the street and promote Sharia Law.
And these fanatics on the street, it's not just their presence that's a physical danger but the fact we pay our hard earned taxes for them to come here for the luxury of having our suburbs taken oven, being called racist and treated like a minority in our country.

Maybe you missed the Home Hill and Minto stabbings, or maybe you don't give a crap.
Maybe you don't know about Islam - Make treaties when you're weak, Cut off their heads when you're strong.

We pay for them to come here (12,000 Syrians cost $900 Million equals $75,000 a head.)
Then demand health welfare and education and the import of their relatives and then they stab us in our streets.

You want me to bend over to the immigrants and lose my country to terrorists and terrorism while paying for your little save the planet scheme?
You've lost the plot mate.

Why the hell should I embrace any of them if they aren't prepared or capable of embracing us?

Start thinking about saving the country first and not handing it over to minorities, immigrants and terrorists before I ever give a stuff about your stupid save the planet bs.

Were you born in the country mate or are you someone who identifies as say Irish or as foreigner and so you have to have this grovelling apologist stance towards other immigrants?

Ive got Aboriginal in me and Irish too so try a little harder next time to come up with worthwhile points next time you take a swipe against the evil white man you idiot.

Bloody 'Allah Achbar' apologist.

Armchair Critic,
Do you ever drive anywhere? Catch a plane? Take the dog for a walk? Use the shower?

All of those things present risks that are orders of magnitude (an order of magnitude represents a multiple of 10) greater than the risk of being violently assaulted by an extremist Muslim. If you factor in the fact that you are (presumably) not Muslim yourself, then you can reduce the risk side of the Muslim equation by another order of magnitude or so.

In other words, stop acting like a silly, scared old woman jumping at shadows.

@Armchair Critic, I offer a few factual corrections.

I don't 'get my panties all up in a bunch' over AGW/CC. I'm a 'freeballer', imagine that. :-)

It is not 'Allah Achbar', is in fact 'Allahu Akbar'.

The religion of Islam is the second largest on the planet, with 1.6 billion adherents, or 23 percent of the global population. Just as Christianity has their Lutherans, Catholics, born agains, and young earth creationists, Islam is a very diverse and broad church - just like the Liberal Party!

No one individual or group represents all Muslims or all of Islam. Do you understand this very simple logical fact?

Muslims have been peacefully living in this land before the ~1850s. This is before my first ancestors arrived in 1863 in a Tall Ship from England, from Germany in the 1880s, and my third group from Ireland in the 1890s. Despite this I am not angry nor filled with fear or hate. I must be a one off? :-)

So, I am a 6th generation Australian and yet there must be some 8th to 9th generation law-abiding Muslim descendants living here as well. Do you understand this very simple logical fact Armchair?

In Northern Ireland there were both catholic and protestant 'terrorists' killing innocents and each other. All the Irish, all Catholics or all Protestants (there and here) were NOT defined as terrorists. They were NOT treated as if they were terrorists based SOLELY on which religion or ethnicity they identified with.

Do you understand this very simple logical fact Armchair Critic?

Were Australians smarter in 1966 vs 2016?

re: "or maybe you don't give a crap."

Let me inform you that I DO give a crap, and much more than a crap.

It's insulting that people like you would even doubt that or use this kind of despicable fallacious argument against others on social media that you have zero knowledge of, nor any justification to imply such things. It's pathetic.

re: "You want me to bend over...."

I do not 'want' you to do a damned thing, let alone bend over.
-

Actually Craig Minns its a risk / reward scenario and if you can't understand that then I can't help you.

I risk driving a car for the reward of not having to walk.
I risk catching a plane for the reward of not having to drive.
I risk taking the dog for a walk for the reward of having a pet and the company he or she brings.
I risk taking a shower for the reward of making myself clean.

What reward do Muslim immigrants bring?
A risk for no reward = downright foolishness.

If you truly believe what you say PROVE IT by playing chicken on the freeway.
That would be taking a risk for no reward also.

I told you all months ago that more attacks would happen and when they did it wouldn't be the terrorists fault it would be the do-gooder apologists.
So now you people are officially worse than them, in my eyes.

Well go take a look at WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.
Take a good look at the life you ended.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-25/man-charged-over-home-hill-stabbing-murder-queensland-backpacker/7785298

Then ask yourself what reward you could give me that would make me tolerate this shite.

Another Allah Ackbar apologist.
No wonder this countries going down the toilet.

Ah, I see Armchair Critic, you believe you have no reward, so any risk is unacceptable.

Why didn't you just say you were a selfish, miserable old bugger playing dog-in-the-manger in the first place?

I'll have to forego the rest of your rant; I'm afraid the reward of reading it isn't likely to be worth the risk of being exposed to what passes for thought in that thing you probably think is a mind.

Go and have a cuppa and good lie down, dear, you really could do with it.

Armchair Critic, I apologise for my last outburst, I failed to live up to my own standards, which makes me a little ashamed. Please note, that does not mean I agree with anything you've said, or support your right to be abusive to others merely for disagreeing with your own views, which appear to be poorly considered at best.

The point I should have made is that while you (rightly or wrongly) perceive no personal benefit to Muslim immigration, there are many people who benefit from the addition to our community of this relatively newly group. Very probably there are people who you care about among them. At the same time, the risk you are personally undertaking through the presence of an increased Muslim population is vanishingly small, as ii is for us all. Therefore, your "risk and reward" calculation is fatally flawed.

A few more things more likely to do you harm than a Muslim extremist on a rampage:
your wife when you arrive home full of beer and misery from the RSL;
your cat; me if I had listen to you sounding off in person - there's a limit to how much I can put up with.

Hi Craig,

I think you're missing the point about terrorism: it's not the statistical probability that worries people, but the random possibility that some crazy bastard could start lunging at them for no reason, anywhere, any time.

Terrorism doesn't work necessarily by killing vast numbers of innocent people (although that helps) but by the sheer uncertainty, randomness, and pointlessness of Islamist attacks. The purpose is to terrorise. Randomness is a vital factor in making that work.

I'm more concerned about the quiet smiles of well-dressed, politely-spoken imams.

Cheers,

Joe

Hi Craig,
No offense taken, and I too apologise to both yourself and Thomas for the insults and coming across harshly.
Those killings weren't your fault, you weren't the perpetrator, so I'm sorry for saying it but I assume you get the point that I was making.

But all these ideas of intolerance...
Why is it (like seriously) that I'm considered intolerant because I see whats played out in foreign countries and believe that one Australian life lost is too many?

The only thing I'm really intolerant of is the idea that it's ok to place Australian lives at risk in their own streets and homes.

You're honestly welcome to call me whatever you want regarding my stance on the matter, because I don't care, and I won't apologise for it.

Armchair, you've not upset me, no apology needed. Have I called you intolerant? I don't think so, nor care if people are intolerant, your business who you have love/like.

I'm intolerant of doorknocker Mormons and Christians selling religion and very intolerant of Scientologists bailing me up in the street to do a questionaire scam.

I have zero tolerance for ISIS/terrorists all over. Parents who encourage their youth to suicide bombing should be certified into insane asylums for life. Build more insane asylums I say.

I have little tolerance/acceptance for how the police handled the Monis seige, I would have ordered an attack within an hour! Even less for the AFP/secret service not monitoring Monis 24/7 already.

I have zero tolerance for the West and corrupt lying middle east govts, including australia for failing to blow ISIS to kingdom years ago. That's an inexcusable disgrace too. I track back responsibility for these "failures, neglect, incompetence" back to our elected reps/govts - LNP, Labor, Greens, Independents all of them.

I also note that those well known Mossies who went to Syria with their kids and cut people's heads off, were already known with police records long before they became pseudo-muslim islamofascist nutcases.

I have zero tolerance for Facebook & others used by ISIS fanatical lowlifes and our Govts impotence in shutting their 'tech networks' down - while pretending they knew within hours that Russia and China were responsible for crashing the census (a total lie btw)

If I was the world's dictator, I'd have Facebook et al shut down immediately and permanently until such times as they can PROVE BEYOND DOUBT they have the systems in pace to not allow one Jihadi terrorist access to publish their violent propaganda - or get lost, you're out of business for facilitating a terrorist network!

I think I know exactly how you feel and what 'frightens' you Armchair. I just do not blame 1.6 billion global Muslims nor those living in Australia because of it. They didn't do it and they don;t agree with it anymore than you or I do. IMO.

Joe,
The reason terrorism works is because people among the "terrorised" run around jumping at shadows and get everyone upset. Any pack of predators, from dogs to lions, when attacking a herd of prey animals knows that the first thing to do is to get them running. The job is made easier if one or two of the herd can be spooked, since they'll infect the rest. We have a very easily spooked herd here on OLO.

Armchair Critic,
It's all in your head mate. What you're doing is reacting to things that you wouldn't pay any attention to if they weren't associated with "Muslims" and "terrorism". If you mixed in a broader circle, and you stopped reading fear-mongering from (non-Muslim) people trying to stir up trouble for their own ends you'd find that your own fear level and your ability to assess the genuine risk would both benefit.

Your Irish ancestry should be a clue about the problems associated with demonising people based on the behaviour of a few bad actors.

TO'R,
Yes, the vast majority of "Muslim terrorists" are just standard-issue nutjobs who are themselves victims of the tiny handful of psychopaths who've done as psychopaths do everywhere and risen to the top of their local tree, simply because they are prepared to tread on other people's heads and able to make them think they like it.

//She asks "What does my headscarf mean to you?"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-12/yassmin-abdel-magied-book-memoir-islamic-youth-leader/7160458
Well for me it means she'll never be a true blue Aussie, no matter what any piece of paper says.//

Because Australians don't wear scarves on their heads?

Well I wish somebody had told me that in Scouts. We used to unroll our scarves and wear them like a bandanna on some occasions. I'm amazed that all the citizenship badges I earned never required me to learn that wearing a scarf in such a fashion was grounds for the revoking of Australian citizenship. If only I had known! Now I'll be left stateless!

Personally, I'm not sure why some people get so worked up about other people's fashion choices. Unless it's fat chicks in tights, of course: that really is unAustralian and the fatties should be exiled if they're not prepared to dress more appropriately.

Hi Craig,

As you say, "The reason terrorism works is because people among the "terrorised" run around jumping at shadows and get everyone upset. Any pack of predators, from dogs to lions, when attacking a herd of prey animals knows that the first thing to do is to get them running. The job is made easier if one or two of the herd can be spooked, since they'll infect the rest.... "

My point exactly. It doesn't have to be many, merely random, utterly unpredictable, could happen to anybody, anywhere, any time. Exactly.

And as you say further, terrorists tend to be " .... nutjobs who are themselves victims of the tiny handful of psychopaths who've done as psychopaths do everywhere and risen to the top of their local tree .... "

Exactly. Are you referring to a minority (no doubt) of neatly-dressed, quietly-spoken imams ? The 'good cops' to the 'bad cops' ? Those in for the long haul ? Shari'a across Australia, bit by bit, by 2100 ?

Cheers,

Joe

That's the way Joe, keep the herd nervous...

Nutjobs appear anywhere and everywhere. Some of them happen to be Muslim, some happen to be Aboriginal, some happen to be white anglo-Australians, etc, etc, etc.

Similarly with psychopaths: some of them become serial killers, some become politicians, some become priests, some become business people, some try to start an Islamic Caliphate and so on.

You might try looking up the meaning of the word "minority", it's an excellent one to describe extremists of all stripes, including those who express their extremism as fear-mongering insinuation.

yep their are terrorist and paedophiles among all groups Craig. Congratulations that you are at least able to see that. Its a pity you are deliberatly blinkered to an ideology/political system as well as a history that if taught with any honesty would be repugnant to the average person in Australia.

Hi Craig,

No, not nervous but vigilant. People should rehearse what they might do in a hypothetical situation if someone nearby is attacked by, as you say, an Aboriginal, Jehovah's Witness, Anglo or Muslim terrorist, how to disarm or disable him.

I'm not sure what an Aboriginal terrorist would shout as he lunged at an old lady or small child or bloke walking his dog. Or if an Anglo was doing the same. They don't seem to have ideologies, populations or religious groups at their back.

The purpose of random terrorism is to generally terrorise, especially on the part of individuals or very small groups trying to terrorise a large majority. Yes, some are psychopaths but some are completely sane people, carefully calculating the impact of terror tactics and, as you say ".... some try to start an Islamic Caliphate ...."

I'm confident that Australians will stomp on terrorism as it arises, and that they will never capitulate to pressures, brutal and subtle, to ever introduce Shari'a law - which, I think, is the fundamental aim of Islamist terrorism. But I also suspect that it will be a very long, drawn-out, struggle.

Cheers,

Joe