Yes, the war is going to be long because too many are interested in its continuation. Obviously terrorists and governments enjoy this symbiosis.

What can we do?

Ban all media - that would starve both!

What is required is for the proles, that's you and me, to reject the ridiculous proposition that endless war is, and should be, the status quo.

Endless war is favored by the Capitalist Predators because they can make money from war and gain access to economic resources belonging to other nations, and, of course, it is the darling of many politicians who can use it to big-time themselves.

The Tinpot Fuhrer, Tony Abbott, at high expense, couldn't wait to send our fighter jets and troops overseas where they have had to sit on their hands for a considerable time.

Keith, we, the majority, don't want any war whether short or long. We have been programmed to accept it and we now need to reject it.

We have also been programmed to follow the U.S., the world's biggest warmonger and conflict creator.

It's time for intelligent citizens to reject the war model and, instead, to engage in promoting peace.

The warmongers must be demonized, drummed out of town, held up to ridicule and contempt!

They are anachronisms.

David G
"The warmongers must be demonized, drummed out of town, held up to ridicule and contempt!"

Yes, hear hear.

David, in case you haven't noticed, it's governments and would-be governments who are creating the demand for all the weapons, buying all the weapons, making all the war, and invading all the countries, and trying to get resources in this way.

You appear to have the public totally confused with the private control of the means of production and destruction. You mean *statist* war-mongers, not capitalist war-mongers. You mean *the opposite* of capitalist war-mongers.

Jardine, you apparently think that there is no connection between corporations and the Government. In the U.S. the Corporations largely control the Government as they do here.

You, my friend, are the one who is confused. Citizens and the Peace Movement have three enemies: their Warmongering Politicians, and their Corporate Criminals, and the MSM!

And your solution is more power to the governments?

No! More power to the people!

Power, as in, using or threatening aggression?

Have you heard of the French Revolution, Jardine?

What's that supposed to mean?

By saying 'power to the people' do you support using or threatening aggression, or not?

If so, how are you any morally different from the warmongers?

There is no War on Terror. There is only a War for Oil manifesting as a War on Islam. And that has been the case since at least the end of WWII.
In the current century, this war for resources ramped up to its current level shortly after those hapless dupes were allowed to fly their hi-jacked airliners into the Twin Towers in one of history's greatest black-flag operations. Those more truly responsible danced on the rooftops in New Jersey as they watched the mini-nukes they had planted take those buildings down.
This has gone on and on for over a decade now. ISIL is merely the latest in along list of patsies.
But it's not ending there, not by a long shot. Obama has just declared a War on Ebola. To show how earnest he is, he has deployed some 3,000 troops to West Africa - not doctors, mind, but troops - where, surprise, vast untouched fields of hydrocarbons are waiting the drill bit, and where China is very much in presence.
The entirety of the manufactured War on Terror is, as our own Joh Bjelke-Petersen used to say, feeding the chooks.

JKJ, You have forced dullard David G into a corner, and obliged him to nail his (Tri) colors to the wall.
And in just three short exchanges!
It's a bit like watching a chess master wipe out an very junior juvenile opponent, and in just three moves!
An erudite Buddha quoting man of peace, so he claims, wants us to just but out of the M.E., where Isil, [the inmates running the asylum,] are just cutthroat criminals committing mass genocide, and worse!
We should just but out, he claims, and remain at peace; as one might actually expect and respect from a genuine conscientious objector!
But then obliquely/slyly suggests, we should follow the example of the French revolution, one of the bloodiest chapters in French history; and just to remove our own legitimate, democratically elected Government!
Expect him to get very personal and borderline abusive, now that you've exposed the real, I believe, bloodthirsty, power lusting, patent Isil sympathizer, David G, for the whole world to see!
Cheers, Rhrosty.

Rhosty,

You're correct...they are a "...legitimate, democratically elected Government!..."

Elected on a bed of lies...a wholesale duping of the electorate....

What kind of damage have they done to "democracy" in this county?

This conflict is likely to last for decades, and only end when we win the war fought for hearts and minds and remove every aspect of poverty, wherever we find it.
And proactively looking.
Our principle weapons are education/micro loans, and progressive self sufficiency.
There has to be a better way to enable capitalist endevour.
And not by handing over the very pillars that support every western style economy; essential cash cow service, energy and capital, to private players!
One only has to look at the latter as unavoidable business costs, to understand those costs need to be contained, and based on the historical evidence, that's as publicly supplied essential service! There's plenty of scope and more than enough opportunity for genuine entrepreneurs to get their teeth into!
They just need to use the brain they were born with, so we don't yet again find ourselves supporting another class of unproductive profit demanding do nothing middlemen!
Whose only real claim to fame, is a virtual doubling of the cost of living, wherever they get their grubby paws on the very levers of the economy!
Simply put; that's just not how you wind down endemic widespread poverty!
And if we're serious in our endevour to win hearts and minds, we have to just bite the bullet, and start as we intend to finish!
Nothing wrong with liberalism and private endeavor, just that it needs to be genuinely productive, and off of the very levers of the economy; preferred by the LAZY investor!?
We just can't keep concentrating more and more wealth in fewer and fewer hands, and expect to be able to address poverty!
Besides, that model shows how to shrink an economy, whereas addressing poverty, actually grows it!
Look to the Chinese example, for irrefutable evidence!
And we need to selectively prosper cooperative capitalism on any number of grounds.
It passes the inherent fairness test and rarely if ever gets to big to fail!
And it's the only free market model that survived the great depression largely intact!
Rhrosty

Dear OLO Brothers and Sista

Are your lives dull, leftwing and way too peaceloving?

Well on the occasion of this better than average, thought leading, article I hereby dedicate this little ditty to John "where are them young boys" Wayne.

See fine acting and not a little touchy feely http://youtu.be/ltQjqg1cA2s .

BALLAD OF THE GREEN BERETS

Fighting soldiers from the sky
Fearless men who jump and die
Men who mean just what they say
The brave men of the Green Beret

Silver wings upon their chest
These are men, America's best
One hundred men will test today
But only three win the Green Beret

Trained to live off nature's land
Trained in combat, hand-to-hand
Men who fight by night and day
Courage peak from the Green Berets

Silver wings upon their chest
These are men, America's best
One hundred men will test today
But only three win the Green Beret

Back at home a young wife waits
Her Green Beret has met his fate
He has died for those oppressed
Leaving her his last request

Put silver wings on my son's chest
Make him one of America's best
He'll be a man they'll test one day
Have him win the Green Beret.

Enjoy

Pete

Poirot; what can I say except, yes, hear, hear.
And arguably because most young folk, [40% of voters,] just couldn't be bothered getting out and voting, then bitching/bellyaching all the way to the next election, and a repeat performance by them!
A 40% voting age demographic, if organized/single minded and cooperating, (occupy wall street) in their voting intentions; could control/decide each and every election.
And clean out the rubbish, just by continuing to put the incumbent last in every ballot, (several single term parliaments) until we get a class of HONEST POLLIES; [now there's a patent oxymoron,] and a citizens' initiated referendum!
Which as a first order of business, would enable enough disaffected voters, to SACK THE GOVERNMENT; [a bloodless revolution/coup] if we were duped or deceived into voting for this or that party, on a body of disingenuous, mendacious duplicity (barefaced porkies and fibs).
And a bill of irrefutable rights wouldn't hurt any of us either, albeit, trim the claws of some control freak pollies!
Cheers, Rhrosty.

Answer: Losing. We are losing.

Who is the enemy? Islam. Yes, it should be obvious that an ideology that teaches discrimination and subjugation and advocates hate and death is our enemy.

The outcome? We all lose. Islam and Muslims will drag us down to their level. This whole thing started when our elites decided, particularly after the 1973 oil crisis, to bring millions of Muslims to our lands, to inflict upon us the joys of their brutal ideology. This stupidity, plus political correctness, modern technology, and the moral breakdown of much of Western society, is a witch’s caldron that will boil over and bring an endless torrent of sorrow and death.

The military campaign against ISIS is silly when millions of Muslims live among us. One is a quick burning fire, the other a slow ember – the result will be the same. They may win battles but the war will not be over just because group A or group B is defeated or exterminated.

Yes, governments and media are playing the Islamicist game, but it is worse, they are complicit in the hate and violence done by Muslims by refusing to be honest about Islam and its detrimental effect on society and human dignity. The “ISIS is not Islamic” mentality is not only logically incoherent, but a clear indication that our elites – the media, academia, the clergy, and government – have no clue what they are dealing with.

Prepare yourselves for war without end. Even if Muslims win, they lose. They will still kill -- themselves and us -- because that is what Islam does. Look at what happened to Mohammad and his companions. They went to war, killed a bunch of infidels and then killed even more Muslims as they fought among themselves. Sound familiar? What we see today is a return to the pure, brutal Islam of Mohammed.

Just for the record, I have never met a Muslim that will repudiate or condemn the hate and violence in the Quran or the evil deeds of their dear prophet -- So much for the moderate Muslim.

Abbott & Shorten have decided we are really not at war, but at war with Syria & Iraq (Isis) we must all remember that war costs an awful lot of extra money to come. From somewhere, but as per usual we will screw the most vulnerable in society to pay for our war games, so social spending cutbacks, we still have Dictator Abbott calling the shots followed by Mouse Shorten who will most certainly agree to screw the poor, screw the rich first like Gina Reinhardt, a billion or two out of her purse would make no difference to her lavish lifestyle, but we will not do that, let the rich keep living their luxurious lifestyles, if ever WW3 ever breaks out one only hopes that the top echelon end up the same as the poor, and not protected as in past wars with safe countries at their disposal.
Once again when the first causality comes home dead then Abbott will as per usual shed crocodile tears, look mournful and perhaps hopefully think I helped cause his or her death , just like Howard helped to kill thousands in the first Iraq invasion by joining the invasion of the killing (willing), but then who cares a toss about ordinary men, women and children, of course they are very dispensable, but as long as it is not me, I am very indispensable.

Keith, thanks for your fine article. It's a shame the 'ferals' discovered it and ran it off the rails.

It's also a shame the Rhrosty, the resident bore, wrote a defamatory comment directed at me, one which should have been deleted.

And it's a shame that the four comments per day embargo (as employed by Young the Publisher), stopped me from replying and defending myself.

P.S. Then our Rhrosty seems to have unlimited license to heap insults upon certain people as well as to use 500 words to say something that most people could say in five.

When I read daily reports from around the world on Abbott's mismanagement of this country I feel like chucking up, when oh when can we get rid of this parasite, he is a complete danger to this once great country and it's people.

Directly addressing the author's title-question: "Are we winning or losing the war on terror?"

By the most important measure - lacked of Islamic terorist caused deaths in Western countries - we are winning the War on Terror (WoT).

The new Western war against IS in Iraq-Syria may or may not be related to this winning of the WoT so far.

Western domestic counter-terrorism efforts, including international intelligence and also police raids, are probably the mains reasons for this rolling win so far.

More in my article next week.

Borat got it right." Can I say we support your wars of terror." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsnbrtd8vE8

Terror was the concept created by the Western neo-cons to pursue unending wars of imperialism.

Hi loco-Arjay

So where does that leave the two worst Great Terrors of the 20th Century - those of Stalin and Mao? http://youtu.be/EMBXwppM8g8

They were both Good anti-imperialist Communists weren't they?

Get it right.

"When I read daily reports from around the world on Abbott's mismanagement of this country..." Ojnab, can you please share the sources of these reports from 'around the world' that specifically call Abbott's handling of this country mismanagement? You are great at making up the facts to suit your claims; I bet you cannot provide one credible link as proof.

Boo Hoo David G - no body likes you, maybe you should eat some worms.

halduel & Arjay - totally predictable anti-West big oil, paranoid, Capitalist conspiracy theory palava. How can you and David G actually believe the world is so bad without seriously considering topping yourself when you wake up in the morning? (Assuming you can sleep)

Hi loco-Pete,
I do hope your article next week is going to be balanced and factual and not simply a tract that will appeal to some of the unbalanced rednecks who inhabit OLO and who glory in war and killing.

"What then does the U.S. gain by being the mightiest military power in the history of the world? The short answer is: it gains the ability to wreak havoc wherever it pleases."

Your article must surely reflect the truth of this sentence!

Cheers.

Dear Davo G

I'll sicc another David, David S on to you. Ramming a Torah where the sun don't shine.

Alternatively catch this http://youtu.be/JlSQAZEp3PA .

Regards

Pete

Well you go away for a year or so and nothing changes. Still the LW Progs, and Conspiranuts rule the roost.

Here I was hoping 1/ Keith's article would be enlightening (it wasn't) and 2/ the responses would be intelligent. Oh well.

Why do you suppose they chose the name Islamic State? Remember their favoured demographic, not so bright Muslims. There are over a billion of them in the world and which demographic do you think the majority of them fill?

We are not at war with a State. There is no enemy government. We are up against a bunch of marauders. Supported by the not so bright and the fanatical.

They control roads and small areas of cities in largely deserted Iraq countryside. They kill indiscriminately. They rape, pillage and plunder. They are a barbarian horde. They should be treated accordingly.

They are part of the civil war in Syria. They say they seek to create the Caliphate. Hell they already have a Caliph right? A self appointed, self annointed, terrorist. What we are seeing is how easy it is for evil men to rise to power in Muslim lands. It is not in our power to prevent such things.

ConservativeHippie which hole do you talk out of, the one in your pants, seems to be the main one you use, why not for a change have a look at Slate. Com and others where the truth of what is going on in the world instead of the right wing Murdoch press which is complete rubbish, get the truth for a change, then talk out of your mouth, at least David G is worth reading and always right in what he is saying on any subject.

T800 I know how you feel. I've been away for some years and still the same simplistic thought processes dominate the response threads.

No, we are not winning the war on terror. Too many in government love the notion of having many of their constituents afraid. It is not in the interest of those who aspire to power to reassure their citizens. That we are capable and have processes in place to deal with crimes on our own soil.

The twin towers came down and everything, returned to normal. We only now are made to toss half a bottle of Channel no5 in the bin and take off our shoes when we go through 'security' when getting onto a plane. And we have a few more Australian soldiers who died or got horribly maimed on foreign soil.

More people get struck by lightening, nibbled by sharks, die in car crashes, or indeed if a woman in Australia, get killed by an intimate partner, or any number of unnatural ways to die, than die through terrorist activity here in Australia.

Those of you who think this is Islam against the West, clearly do not take any trouble to actually check who mainly gets killed. No, it's not the few hapless Western men who were beheaded, it's other Muslims.

Kactuz, you must live a very, very secluded life. I meet through work and in private plenty of Muslim people, none condone what is done to other Muslims by ISIS.

What some of you might want to investigate is, why ISIS initially has support from local people when they arrive. A bit like how the Taliban was greeted initially in Afghanistan.

Most people want some sense of safety and reliability of services to go about their daily lives. Doesn't matter what race or creed you are. That's why people in some war zone might welcome ISIS and Australians who are made afraid of terrorism welcome curtailment of press and personal freedom.

When I read the news these days, what with the black death and the crusades, I feel like I've been transported back in time 800 years.

"The War on Terror. The causes of terrorism are related to cultural myths and lack of education, injustice and an unfair distribution of wealth. Yet we deal with terrorism by killing 'terrorists' (or people we claim to be terrorists without any process of law and justice). This is state sanctioned murder, and it obviously increases the motivation of terrorists."

Please discuss!

In May 2010 Keith Suiter came to the Mechanical School of Arts Sydney to listen to Prof Niels Harrit present the evidence of the use of Nano Thermite being used in the Towers of 911.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_tf25lx_3o

This is a peer reviewed paper of which a team of 9 international scientists including our Dr Frank Legge.This paper has not been addressed let alone disproven by our authorities.

Keith Suiter did not display any disbelief in the evidence presented but kept saying this is very interesting. Most of us who have even a basic understanding of science know that the official story cannot be correct and the war on terror is a lie.

A good article that gives an exellent over view of what Islamic State are doing to prevoke the west.
I would add two points for further thinking;

1. The West's reaction has a lot to do with fears regarding oil supply. The money spend on directly engaging Islamic state would be better spent developing oil independence from the middle east. Australia is sitting on enough oil and gas to do this.

2. The beheading's have another purpose and that is to activate the fanatical fringe in the Muslim community globally. We have seen both political and public negative reaction against Muslims everywhere.This will provoke the fanatical fringe into action; escalating this into a global conflict.

The west seriously needs to analyse its reactions to Islamic State and take actions which deny them their power base which are Oil (money) and the fringe of the Muslim community (soldiers). I don't see direct engagement doing this that well and more positive more passive reactions could serve the World better.

Arjay,

Do you mean that the Twin Towers plane crashes were a hoax?

Arjay, you might be having too much. We might lose the war on terror if everyone thinks like you are with this non-sense.

Why have we not seen video of the 3rd building collapsing? Have I missed big news somewhere?
Why does that interview not show the 3rd building collapse?

And wait. There is more.
It is possible the suicide pilots and associates had suicide vests that exploded on impact and may have left residue.
The molten metal pouring out of the building is apparently aluminium from the aircraft.

Go to a tool hire shop, get a jackhammer, use the pick on concrete, watch the dust and powder form under impact.

Then go seed a good doctor, not a spin doctor. LOL
Meantime watch this and have a good rest:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJy_LdHMmaM

Hi Is Mise

I suggest don't get Arjay started. He's a 9/11 "Truth" nut you know.

JF and Pete cannot face the truth of 911.It the very basis of all these wars.http://patriotsquestion911.com/ I think people like Lt Col Robert Robert Bowman the ex-director of Advanced Space Programs of NASA, Gen Wesley Clarke and Major General Albert Stubbline have a lot more credibility than you two. There are thousands of professionals on this site who have serious doubts about the official story of 911 and want a real investigation.

Dr Robert Bowman who died last yr was the head of the 911 truth movement. He had PHDs in Nuclear Physic and Mathematics and aeronautics. In his shadow Pete and JF, your opinions bare no weight.

Also see http://www.ae911truth.org/ They now have 2200 architects and engineers who do not believe the official story.

Arjay, do also believe CO2 emissions are causing global warming?

Can you cope with knowing AGW IPCC science has not measured and assessed photosynthesis linked warmth in ocean algae plant matter proliferated by unprecedented sewage and land use nutrient overload pollution?
Can you believe plant matter in oceans has not been fully or properly studied?

Can you believe shortfall in supply of food from oceans and rivers is linked to unprecedented hardship and civil unrest?

Do you understand that land and food shortages and hard times are known to be linked to extreme violence and war?

How can war on terror be won or stopped if chronic poverty and collapse of affordable food supply is virtually ignored, ignored while supposedly sensible humans focus on 9/11 not being real?

Can't even have sensible debate here, 9/11 non-sense has arrived.

9/11 needs to be relegated to history.

JF since you cannot argue the facts of 911 you digress to AGW? Let's address one lie at a time. http://www.ae911truth.org/
http://patriotsquestion911.com/

Here you will see General Wesley Clarke tell of the planned invasion by the USA of Middle Eastern countries over a decade ago. Only Iran and Syria with the aid of Russian defence, have escaped Iraq's fait. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw

The Twin Towers were brought down by explosives planted by the CIA. There is no such group as 'al Qa'ida'. That's just a CIA invention. So there's no such thing as 'ISIS', that's all a fabrication. Or 'Boko Haram', or 'al-Shabbab', or 'al Qa'ida in the Maghreb', or 'al Qa'ida in the Yemen', or 'Huzb-ut-Tahrir', or the 'Pakistani Taliban' - there all CIA constructs.

So with the average of a couple of bombings each week since 2001, every one of them has been arranged by the CIA. Clever b@stards.

Is that how it works, Arjay ?

Joe

Perhaps the 'big picture' that no one wants to look at involves an all-out war between head-hacking Muslims and the nuclear-armed, insatiably-greedy, barbaric 'Christian' West!

Of course, Pakistan has nukes so that complicates the otherwise neat picture somewhat along with North Korea and the rise and rise of Russia and China.

It's hard to be optimistic given these factors especially when the U.S., behind the scenes, is determined to gain total control of the world militarily and economically.

"Withhold any amazement at the strangely gallied whales before us, for there is no folly of the beasts of earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men."
(Herman Melville, Moby Dick)

Gawd, this thread really got itself worked up !
Arjay is right about the third building collapsing.
It was shown on TV when it happened and many times since.
It was just across the street from one of the towers.
I have never heard an explanation as to why it collapsed.

Yes, it is not a new war, it is just a continuation of the war started 1400 years ago.
Because of the nature of Islam it has difficulty in running a mixed economy of agriculture and industry.
It supports itself by levying the jaziz (spelling ?) tax on unbelievers.
Overtime those paying the tax either convert to Islam because they cannot afford the tax
or they leave. This depleting tax gives rise to discontent and rebellion.

Most people have a reversed idea of what the crusades were about.
The Islamists invaded the Levant and murdered their Jewish and Christian populations.
So the Christians in the west invaded the middle east to stop them.
Does that sound familiar ?

As to our current outbreak, if they can break the supply of food to the IS
then they will either surrender of dissipate in a couple of weeks.
Large quantities of food must be transported by trucks on roads.
Remember what Napolean said;
"An army marches on its stomach !".

There is one catch to this, we know what type of people we are dealing with.
They might start eating the population of the towns they hold.

Yvonne,

I probably live on the same planet as you do. I never said that Muslims, most Muslims, condone the actions of ISIS and suchlike. Of course, any Muslim that lives under ISIS or the Taliban or Boko Haram will probably not condemn those groups, for obviously reasons.

What I said is that Muslims will not condemn the actions of their dear prophet or the hate and violence in the Quran.

Now, grab a few of your Muslims people and ask about Mohammed's attacks on his neighbors. There is a list of about a hundred expeditions in Wikipedia, if you care to know more, in which Mohammed and his thugs attacked, looted, murdered, raped captives and enslaved men women and children. If you want to be more specific, ask about Asma bint Marwan, a nursing mother for offending Islam's prophet (even if what she said was mild) and her killing was approved by Mr. Mercy. There is also a case of a pregnant woman ripped open for the same reason.

Then there is the Quran.. Ask your friends if they believe nonMuslims are lower than animals or if they consider Allah a liar.

Good luck.

It is easy to condemn ISIS, but ISIS is not doing anything new. They do, in fact, point to the Quran and hadith as the source of their beliefs and actions. If the Quran is perfect, maybe your friends will explain how it is so easily misunderstood.

Please report back. Let all of us know how it goes.

Hint: if you take a single Muslim over to a far corner, by him/herself, you might get an admission that "yes, some things are really bad" or "I don't accept that". Other wise it will just be one silly excuse after the next. Muslims are not known for their deep understanding of simple concepts like right and wrong or that values must be applied consistently. Even simple facts like the daily news or reports on Islamic societies mean nothing to them. For Muslims, all that counts is belief, the rest is routine and rituals.

Bazz,

Yes, they might, there's probably something in the Koran which commands it. As long as it's not Jewish, or pork, or beetles.

But don't forget that ISIS now controls many very productive areas, from the Euphrates and Tigris River valleys and irrigated areas in between, across almost to the Mediterranean coast. With hundreds of thousands fleeing, if anything they will need to use slave-labor to harvest it all. Imagine the vast stores of food which hundreds of thousands of people leave behind as well. So finding food won't be one of their problems.

Cheers,

Joe

Loudmouth, yes your points are valid. However they have to make sure
that the population has food as well.
After all the towns they hold are meaningless if the people have all gone taking food with them.
This will ultimately be their undoing as they try to keep large towns operational.
They probably need helicopters to be able to knock over the trucks carrying food.
Might be why they are trying to get access to Turkey's NATO airports.

I am coming to the conclusion that the only solution lies in some form of isolation
of the moslem world.
We cannot keep coming back generation after generation to sort out their problems.
The rest of the world can isolate them in some way and tell them thats it, sort your selves
out and do not come near the rest of us.
Resources such as oil are a problem, but we could barter food for oil until their supply
declines to the point it no longer matters.

Many think the US is worried about middle east oil but they only take about 10% of their
imports from the Gulf. It is more important to Australia, it is in fact
crucial, we would be in very serious trouble with perhaps near 100% unemployment
if Middle East oil disappeared suddenly.

Let me elaborate on my understanding of the issue. There are two basic positions regarding Islam:

1. It is just another religion. It teaches peace. Muslims are mostly peaceful and any group that proclaims itself to be Islamic but promotes violence is not really following the dictates of Islam.
2. Islam is inherently flawed; with a propensity to discriminate and even encourage violence in certain situations. Muslims, even those that preach peace and tolerance, are either ignorant or in denial about the nature of their religion and cannot be trusted to support basic human rights because their values are different from those of “Western Civilization”.

The first is the position held by most Muslims and by our elites, particularly Obama. The second alternative is common but unfortunately not representative of those that make most of the important decisions that affect our lives. In this case, the war on ISIS and radical Islam is futile, because the problem is much serious, more immediate.

There is no middle ground.

If the first position is true, than the war on ISIS and radical Islam can be won. Also, by the same token, Muslim immigrants will eventually integrate and become, globally, a productive, peaceful, positive element in the fabric of a nation’s society. Let us all hold hands and sing kumbayah.

On the other hand, if the second position is correct, we are in deep trouble. I think I can reasonably argue position 2, based upon obvious facts (the Quran, hadith, early histories of Islam, conditions of Islamic societies, the evening news broadcasts, etc.).

So there it is….

Ahh Kactuz, you are an optimist I think.
Ask the Serbs, their homeland is now the first Islamic country in Europe.

Dear kactuz,

You mentioned two alternatives, then concluded: "There is no middle ground."

But there are other alternatives, including the one I brought forward on OLO (albeit not on this particular thread), in short:

* Islam is a package.
* This package includes a religion.
* The religion of Islam is peaceful.
* Other parts of the package are violent.
* Muhammad only taught the religion of Islam, but his followers bundled it in his name after his death (thus without his knowledge and consent) with their violent agenda. They also falsified the historical records, claiming that Muhammad was himself violent as they.
* Should the lovers of Muhammad find the truth, they will be quick to drop the package and embrace the original teachings of Muhammad alone.

Many do so already, but quietly. According to your second alternative, they are either ignorant or in denial - but what if they simply want to stay out of trouble? What if they claim to embrace the whole package only because they wisely prefer to live in the shade and not lose their life and limb in the hands of their extremist "brothers"?

Ojnab - I challenged you to supply some proof that you have read 'articles from around the world' discussing Tony Abbotts mismanagement of Australia. I made a bet you wouldn't be able to even provide one link.

You didn't provide a link but instead said I should be reading Slate.com, the contrarian news. I went to the Slate website and I couldn't find any mention of Tony Abbott's management.

If you think David G is always right about everything he says its proof you are both living in la-la land. Give up whatever it is you are smoking, its making you paranoid.

Evidence of substance indicates war on terrorism will continue until solutions to causes of the terrorism are identified and put in place.
Causes have to be seen and debated but economists don't like negative criticism.
Causes are economic hardship, especially mass unemployment among Middle East youth.
Facts of 9/11 should include reference to economic hardship that drove poor people to support wealthy Osama Bin Laden.

Prior to 9/11 I saw a TV interview with Saddam Hussein warning an attack might occur in the US if problems in the Middle East were not urgently addressed.
Yes, the US would have known trouble was brewing and that it would be best to attack ME countries first, so plans for an attack may have existed. And it took 9/11 to occur before the US did attack.

The economic problems causing unrest in the Middle East have still not been addressed. It’s not just a matter of oil barons keeping the money, just look at how Dubai failed in building a city as a way of developing a thriving economy.
People at the bottom of the economy need properly paid jobs in order to pay for cost of modern day living, especially rising cost of food.
Cost of food is rising due to increasing demand and shortfall in supply.
At one stage during years of my research into world fish depletion, according to ABARE the cost of fish was rising five times faster than cost of red meat and poultry.
And in nearby Solomon Islands during the 2013 Christmas holidays, the cost of fish was higher than cost of chicken for the first time in the history of that nation.
According to evidence of substance the worldwide shortfall in supply of affordable food from oceans and rivers and lakes is occurring due to the same cause that is warming some areas of the oceans, the cause is unprecedented sewage and land use nutrient overload pollution that is proliferating algae.
Algae is continuing to devastate food web nurseries and food sustainability, so consequential hardship and terrorism will surely continue and worsen until governments realize.

Continued……………

Cont’d………..
Algae is impacting weather, rainfall, storm damage, floods, crop production.

There is now so much algae it’s even causing anoxia, causing ocean and lake and river dead zones.

The highest recorded sea level rise on the US coast is located in the Gulf of Mexico where the world’s biggest ocean dead zone is located. These dead zones are not caused by CO2 but consequences of them are causing hardship even in the US.

AGW has to come into debate about terrorism because world food supply and sustainability is linked to algae, not CO2.
The “G” in AGW requires more science. The warming as in AGW is not global at the same time, it’s areas of ocean that are sometimes warmed more than usual, sometimes causing weather change in one area but not globally at the same time.

The anomaly being found in ocean temperature is not an anomaly if ocean algae plant matter is factored into climate science.
Factor in algae by looking closely at the pinpoints of cloud forming almost parallel above algae during apparent precipitation. The pinpoints lead to bigger clouds and obvious weather change that can be seen occurring. Here: http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/view.php?id=40716

Bering Sea weather is linked to the Jet Stream, tornadoes and hurricanes. Damage too.
Farmers need rain but not too much, not so much cloud, or imbalance involving drought.
Sure, farmers can produce food but at what cost to consumers without enough money? Farmers need low cost fishmeal and fertilizer, guano for example. Costs are skyrocketing.

Seafood used to be virtually free of production cost. Check cost of fish and meat these days. Consider known consequences of food and land shortage and economic hardship, food riots and unaffordable food, instead of wasting time about 9/11 conspiracy and CO2 non-sense.

Empirical evidence indicates the so called war on terrorism cannot be won until the cause of economic hardship and irritability and unrest linked to hunger, is addressed and overcome.
ISIS may be overcome but not the terrorism, not until causes are overcome.

John C Fairfax.

P.S.
Controlled demolition:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/wtc7.html

J F Aust a very good article, the way one sees what is happening now is to curtail people all over the world to limit how many children they have, but of course this will never happen, anger is noticed by the poorer of society in how they demonstrate their frustration in many ways, such as house break ins, bashings, no work, a feeling of being an outcast, etc, these are happening all over Australia and daresay the whole world, we then have Governments who are more interested in looking after wealthy mates than the ordinary people, frustration then leads to violence, if nobody in the upper echelon will not listen to my cries of despair then the creation of gangs leading to the huge problems we now have overseas, then hatred builds more hatred and it becomes a world wide problem with wars between the rich and poor. I am sure if we all who write to OLO and had to sleep on cement at night, begging for food, dirty clothes, no showers, we then would look for someone somewhere who could lead us to a better life, one only hopes that sometime in the future wars will be no more and all people will enjoy life, not as it is now.
OLO has its battles between writers, which is good, but goes to show just how angry we all can become, (small wars) what hope has the world got?

Onjab,

That's a terribly sad story. Begging for food, no showers, dirty clothes.

Have you tried fruit-picking ? Hard but honest work, and it provides a fair wage :)

Joe

The problem of the Middle East is poor management, religious division and an absence of democracy.
This is all made worse by their custom of marrying their cousins generation after generation.
Aside from the genetic effects it keeps the tribe very tightly contained.
There is little chance of national unity, no matter how the borders are redrawn.
They are cursed by Allah, the Koran and their rulers and there is nothing the west can do about it.
I think the minority peoples in Iraq & Syria are doomed.
Their populations have been decimated of the centuries from being the majority to their
now minority only permitted to live as the gift of the Islamists.

That will be our fate if we do not learn from history.

Ojnab, thanks for your comment. It mirrors your despair and mine and our concern for the world.

When we get the kind of comments that Bazzzzzzzzzzzzz and Joe and Bigmouth continuously writes, I feel like giving up altogether. Peace will never come while the world has divisions caused by religion, racism, capitalism, inequality of wealth, imperialism, etc.

You are right. OLO is a microcosm of the world at large and its many divisions.

The world we live in now will continue to deteriorate until nuclear war and the madness of men ends human existence.

>> * Muhammad only taught the religion of Islam, but his followers bundled it in his name after his death (thus without his knowledge and consent) with their violent agenda. They also falsified the historical records, claiming that Muhammad was himself violent as they.<<

Please verify the above... that statement flies in the face of accepted history. If what you say is true why hasn't anyone else raised it by now? What's your source, or did you just pluck it out of your mind?

* Should the lovers of Muhammad find the truth, they will be quick to drop the package and embrace the original teachings of Muhammad alone.

Says who? Dropping the package is blasphemy in Islam. Where does one go to find 'the original teachings of Muhammad' if not the Koran? One of the strongest arguments Muslims use to confirm the Koran is valid word of Muhammad, is that it is written in the original language of Mohammad and unlike the Bible, has never been altered.

>> Many do so already, but quietly. According to your second alternative, they are either ignorant or in denial - but what if they simply want to stay out of trouble? What if they claim to embrace the whole package only because they wisely prefer to live in the shade and not lose their life and limb in the hands of their extremist "brothers"? <<

Isn't that what the Catholics were doing in Nazi Germany? Not speaking up in order to save their own skin. What kind of morals is that? Change can only be brought about when people speak out, join together, and demand change. Hiding in the corner will only perpetuate the problem.

Yuyutsu, you would make a terrible lawyer.

"Peace will never come while the world has divisions caused by religion, racism, capitalism, inequality of wealth, imperialism, etc."

I don't see communism on your list. The communists tried redistributing the wealth but most of it went back into the military budget.

The sad thing is power corrupts; society needs some form of control which ultimately requires putting faith into some form of political system. Politicians start off idealistic but even the best either succumbs to corruption or is usurped by the others. Even the Greens would suffer the same fate; and we've seen examples of how socialists can quickly evolve into fascist dictatorships.

I'm stumped. Can you please provide some suggestions for a practical and do-able solution for the real world. How do we set about undoing the division caused by religion, racism, capitalism, inequality of wealth etc?

David and Onbaj,

My last paying job, at 61, was milking. 280 beautiful Friesians at a brand-new Aboriginal diary, built in 2002, now closed. 'Price of milk was too low', although free water, free labour, no rates to pay (Aboriginal land) or land repayments, only about half the cost of the dairy to pay thanks to the dairy reconstruction scheme of Howard's.

I did ten years in factories, Metters, Arnotts, Balfours, Noon Pies, in meat-works, and more years in farm-work. I suspect that neither of you have every dirtied your hands and you were appalled when I suggested that Anjob go fruit-picking. In management roles maybe ?

I suppose it's easier to be a Goth - 'It's all so hard, so pointless, why do we live, nuclear war is coming, what's the use, woe is us.' Winkers Anc.

BTT: Since this war is mainly ideological, with nothing to do with poverty or victimisation, it will have to be complemented by a VERY long-term ideological struggle between the values of desert clans and the values of the post-Enlightenment. With Goths somewhere in the middle, getting in the way.

Joe

The answer is simple, CH. We need to return to the hive mentality.

Yeah, insects that have been surviving for centuries don't embrace the 'Me First' capitalist philosophy. They work to ensure the hive survives. Each insect in the hive works at his or her allotted task. Individuality is subsumed by the hive ethos.

Humans instead embrace the 'Me First' doctrine. Each human competes with every other human. The way that human society works is that those who get rich, then obscenely rich, are elevated and live lives of luxury. The rest of society struggles.

We need to build a cooperative society, where everyone enjoys the benefits and no one gets to grab hold of a lion's share of the world's resources. Such people should be done away with because they are greedy and don't belong to the bulk of society. They are parasites!

Cooperation, sharing, caring for others, these are things that are anathema to our modern world where the law of the jungle and 'might-is-right' prevails.

Next time you read about the lavish pursuits of a billionaire, curse him or her. They are enjoying your share of the world pie and that of many millions of suffering others.

Joe Loudmouth, please get in the real world, having passed a person sleeping on cement last night I am appalled at your comment, there are millions throughout the world doing just that, as for your fruit picking comment I come from a farming family which included shearing sheep , orchard and milking cows, all I can say to you is " Get a Life" I hate to say also, but you must be a prick of a person only concerned with self and your own ego.

Dear Hippie,

<<Yuyutsu, you would make a terrible lawyer.>>

Thank you, that's one of the best compliments I received lately.

<<Please verify the above... that statement flies in the face of accepted history.>>

This is my hypothesis, based only on circumstantial evidence and I'd be happy to hear other possible explanations.

The evidence I have is:

When seeing and talking with ordinary Muslims, I notice that they are gaining some excellent spiritual progress from the everyday teachings of Islam.

Islamic practices have been praised by several Hindu gurus - some even tested them on themselves to verify and quoted the sayings of historical Muslim teachers, especially Sufis, in their spiritual discourses. As you know, Hindus and Muslims live in dense proximity in India and have bloody clashes between them due to this friction, so Hindus have no reason to praise Islam unless they recognised outstanding and undeniable spirituality.

I checked for myself the web-site of the Sufi Sheikh Nuh Keller, browsed around and listened to some recorded materials. While I'm not a Muslim, nor aspiring to be one, nor in agreement about everything there, I was surprised about the numerous commonalities and how many of his words were resonating with my own spiritual experiences.

He is definitely against violence - listen for example to his talk on Jihad: http://untotheone.com/public/this-is-jihad/

Where did this richness and depth of spirit come from?
Could the same person who inspired all this also inspire hatred, murder, rape and enslavement?

- It's inconsistent.

Then I found here on OLO about the way the Koran was written, that Muhammad was illiterate, that the Koran was only assembled two years after his death by this Abu-Bakr guy who had his own political interests, from random pieces of paper found in the drawer of one of Muhammad's wives (which illiterate-Muhammad couldn't verify were indeed his sayings).

So boy, I say, this guy could have done whatever he liked with the text. A woman's word was worth nothing against his (regarding the original contents of that drawer), he had the motive and the means and he was ruthless otherwise.

(continued...)

(...continued)

Recalling that similar hijacking of a spiritual master's teachings by their disciple also happened in our times (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNCJlc7afC8), despite his literacy and all technological advancements, why couldn't it happen then?

Yes, it's all circumstantial, but it deserves a thorough investigation.

<<If what you say is true why hasn't anyone else raised it by now?>>

It requires the insight of someone who is religious but not sectarian.
A Muslim couldn't say that and keep his head.
A sectarian of another religion couldn't acknowledge that the Islamic religion has any value.

<<Dropping the package is blasphemy in Islam>>

Blasphemy of... Muhammad! What if they discovered that the package was blasphemous to begin with?

<<Where does one go to find 'the original teachings of Muhammad' if not the Koran?>>

Underground mainly! The scientific, historical and archaeological forensic tools we have today are better than ever - we should use them to the maximum and not spare any effort or leave a stone unturned in proving to the ordinary Muslims that the atrocities committed by their "brothers" are NOT of Muhammad's will.

<<Isn't that what the Catholics were doing in Nazi Germany?>>

Let's not judge others lest we be judged ourselves. Can you look into my eyes and say confidently without blinking that you would have defied the Nazis in their place and hidden Jews at home, risking your life and your family's? I cannot.

Hi Onjab,

Probably. I'm sorry, I didn't realise that you had any work experience, your views seemed as ill-informed and fantasist as David's, or Daffy Duck's or James O'Neill's or those of the scatty Wounded Goose. I apologise. I guess I was reading the sorts of things I would have said forty and fifty years ago when I was a Maoist and wincing with embarrassment.

The difference between now and then, however, is that we have now had, combined, many hundreds of years of experience of socialism - the various components of the old Soviet Union, China and eastern Europe. The Paris Commune. Vietnam. Pol Pot's Kampuchea. Cuba. Ethiopia and Congo-Brazzaville. Tanzania. Nicaragua and Chile. And so many others.

All have either collapsed or ended up as authoritarian travesties of socialism, ghastly state Mafias. You have that experience to draw on. I hope with all my heart that you don't waste decades pursuing Utopian dreams - Utopias always, always end in fascism, if their principles are pushed to their limits.

What can we do ? Yes, work for the people, but never assume that they can be driven like sheep to allegiance to some single party. Multi-party socialism ? Perhaps a contradiction in terms :)

So what to do ? No. 1: don't harm the people. In today's Australian, my friend Gary Johns has a brilliant article about the 'burka' - I think he means the nikab - in defence of women and against backward cultural practices and male domination. That sort of thing.

No. 2: try to move things forward, clear-eyed and principled, don't play stick-up-the-@rse politics, that's opportunism and it always degenerates into ever more unprincipled activity.

No. 3: read the first few pages of Solzhenitsyn's 'Gulag Archipelago'. That certainly helped me to begin to see the light.

I wish you all the luck in the world. Oh, try to get a hold of a copy of Kenan Malik's 'Search for a Moral Compass', it came out last month. Absolutely brilliant ! You can take the boy out of the left, but .......

Cheers,

Joe

So Yuyutsu you are confirming what I suspected, you just made up all those things about Muhammad and Muslims because its what you hope its all about... you don't have a proof at all but are encouraging everyone to look for it.

Now I suspect you've just done it again, saying "Islamic practices have been praised by several Hindu gurus - some even tested them on themselves to verify and quoted the sayings of historical Muslim teachers, especially Sufis..."

Where's the proof? As a yogi I have studied comparative religion for much of my life and I've never come across Hindu praise for Islam, other than agreement with the odd phrase or two, but there is a lot of respect for the Sufi mystics. Islam is narrow minded and Sufism is embracing.

You do realise the Sufis are persecuted by the other Muslims, and ISIS wouldn't waste any time wiping out every Sufi they can find.

If Muslims practiced the interpretations of Islam as taught in Sufism, the world would be a much better place, but they don't.

Dear Hippie,

I was not aware that Sufis were persecuted: by ISIS perhaps - everything is believable about them, but not before.

The question is, how come that Sufis, who are highly spiritual and acknowledged by other religions (as well as other smaller Islamic sects that seem to be completely sane), still revere Muhammad. Would they if he was a bully murderer and rapist? Which was the true Muhammad?

Perhaps there is no Hindu praise for Islam but there is Hindu praise for Muhammad, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramakrishna#Islam_and_Christianity
And the Islamic response: http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/society-and-family/interfaith-issues/466597-sri-ramkrishna.html

I have just ordered this book - perhaps it may shed some more light on the question: http://www.vedanta.com/store/product992.html

Loud Goose,

"....the burka - I think he means the nikab..."

Great stuff....recommends an article...and preemptively explains that the author of it has his references wrong.

"....don't play stick-up-the-@rse politics..."

Which is Loudy's favourite pastime on OLO....not that he's hypocritical or anything.

"Are we winning or losing the war on terror?

Losing, whilst we have a multi non-intregrated tribal society.

Dressed up with the quaint, la-de-da sounding word, Multi-cultural.

All over the world in refugee camps there are millions of people(refugees),
fleeing or rather being driven off their land by hostile, territorial,religious or ethnic tribes. And still we bring in the tribes.
Of course we will lose.
Yes religions are tribes when they don't marry outside their religion, they very quickly in a couple of generations develop
close tribal bloodline.

Doctor Suter,

Surely many people can see the quickest way to overcome IS would be to support Syria and the Assad family regime. And I realize that would mean Russia and Iran would join the team to achieve peace.

Some time ago I asked a Syrian living in Australia, what Bashar al-Assad was really like, and the immediate answer was, "Well he got the Muslims and Christians together".

It may take a dictatorial regime to control peace among extremists from so many different tribes and religious beliefs.

I think there is need for an urgent rethink about IS and the Middle East situation, due to Ebola virus.

It is obvious there can be no real control of Ebola if Middle East and other fighting and war escalates, including perhaps worldwide.

Meanwhile I see Turkey has ideas of it's own and escalation of war may be imminent, if there is no critically urgent rethink.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a0da17d2-4d71-11e4-bf60-00144feab7de.html#axzz3FV8KRyyo

"It may take a dictatorial regime to control peace among extremists from so many different tribes and religious beliefs."

JF Aus, stand up and take a bow. That is the most intelligent thing I've read in the comments section for a long, long time, in fact since the mindless 'Bomb-em, Yanks' brigade gained the ascendancy.

Why don't you send the sentence to the White House? Most of the folk there are clueless, I know, but I live in hopes!

David,

Brainless. Do you think that Turkey and the Saudis will stand by and let ISIS be destroyed ? Isn't this the point of Obama's dilemma ? That he can't let ISIS win in Syria, (if that looked like happening, Iran would be in like a shot, and Hezbollah: then it would be on), but he can't let Assad win either (Turkey and the Saudis would move in, and then Iran and Hezbollah yada yada).

So the Progressive Coalition has to carefully calibrate their attempt to control and degrade ISIS: it can't kill either of the monsters, otherwise their ghastly parents would step in, from one side or another, and quickly therefore, from both sides.

And if an all-out war was thus provoked between the Saudis and Iran and, as would be most likely, Iran started to prevail, the Saudis would call on their Pakistani allies, with their nuclear weapons. Upon which the Iranians would call on their Indian allies, with their nuclear weapons.

And that's assuming that there won't be revolts amongst the Sunni-Shia minorities in all of the countries in the Middle East. And let's not even talk about Russia's role in supporting Assad and Iran.

So Obama has to keep the potential for a world war confined to Iraq (where he has to eliminate ISIS, to keep Iran out) and Syria (where he has to degrade it, keep it degraded but not eliminated, to keep the Saudis out).

In his referee's role, he may need some time. We should wish him well because it is well and truly our fight too. Don't kid yourself, David.

Joe

I think I agree with JF Aus. I do not think we owe any of them anything
such as loyalty etc.
The only worry I see is it might be worse if you support a minority over a majority.

The Shiia are just as mad as the Sunni, so it maybe out of the frying pan into the fire.

Ebola, Ebola, Ebola, Ebola, think about Ebola.
Ebola can easily kill more people worldwide than nuclear war.
Ebola has potential to kill over half of the world's human population including OLO authors retired in the hills.
Ebola virus in a lipstick container in a subway could cause terror in an entire city and country.
Think again.
Think quickly.
Make peace like it has never been made before.

It takes two to make peace.
There is a big impediment to peace making and you have seen in action already.
The Israeli - Palestinian confrontation is the most obvious demonstration.
The moslems believe that land once occupied by either being unclaimed land or
occupied as a result of invasion becomes moslem land forever even if the original owners retake the land.

That is an insurmountable barrier to peace.
Can you imagine Spain agreeing to that ?
To say nothing of Austria, Hungary and India.

You need to understand what we are dealing with.

There are only three ways to resolve this;
1. Submit to Islam.
2. Decide to finally annihilate all Moslems. Nuke Mecca & Medina.
3. More of the same every hundred years or so.
4. What is your choice ?

Bazz,

"2. Decide to finally annihilate all Moslems. Nuke Mecca & Medina."

Bonkers.....

: )

Bazz the only way to finally get peace every where is to get rid of all humankind, it is not only religion but rich against poor which also creates war, there has never ever been harmony in the past nor will there be into the future.

Onja B,
Dear oh dear, Piorot will think your solution is worse than my No 2.
Not to worry, Piorot was unable to compute a No 4 solution.

Interesting, no one has a solution. Everyone waffles around the problem
but never come up with a firm proposal.
I am like the rest of you unsure what should be done.
The best I can come up with is a Berlin Wall around the Middle East.
Before you all burst out with laughter, I did not mean a physical wall,
Gawd, fancy having to make that clear, harrumph !
Think about the organisation we, the democracies, are dealing with;

Nazis wanted to conquer the world
Muslims want to conquer the world

Nazis wanted to exterminate the Jews
Muslims want to exterminate the Jews

Nazis revered and worshipped a genocidal mass-murdering lunatic called Adolf Hitler
Muslims revere and worship a genocidal mass-murdering lunatic called Mohammed

Nazis revered their holy book full of genocidal exhortations called Mein Kampf
Muslims revere their holy book full of genocidal exhortations called the Koran

Can anyone pick holes in that ?

Dear Bazz,

<<Can anyone pick holes in that?>>

Yes, Hitler lived in our times, there are even people living today who saw him and can testify for his genocidal mass-murdering. He wrote his own book.

Muhammad lived long ago, no contemporary people saw him or can testify about his behaviour and "his" book was not written by him.

Well the koran was written by someone, just "Insert name here".

It appears there is a way to achieve world peace at least in the short term. How about:

1. Immediately secure international agreement for a truce between all nations to give peace a chance, in order to understand how to control the Ebola virus that will hit every family everywhere if it is not urgently contained.

2. Immediately hold numerous inter-nation economic summits to increase world growth even more, especially to stimulate pockets and purses of all consumers, including at the bottom of the economy. Stimulate business and employment. Focus on kick starting all economies.

This is nothing to do with redistribution of wealth.
People of all nations are short of money, some acutely more so than others.
Clearly there is need for new money worldwide to make up the shortfall, not borrowed money, but perhaps a new international economy, new international fiscal policy to stimulate all existing economies. But how, by doing what?

The whole world environment, land, oceans, rivers, creeks, lakes, atmosphere, all need rehabilitation, regeneration, whole of water ecosystem management.

There is urgent need to sustain biodiversity that is supposed to sustain life and even good weather on this unique planet?

Think about natural resource exploitation in reverse.

Plumbing and forest and rural industries alone are capable of employing mega millions of people in need of income.
Every nation requires proper and productive water ecosystem management, proper sanitation, adequate healthy water supply and waste management infrastructure.
Very significant and productive infrastructure could be developed to benefit the environment.

It can be done.

The alternative is do nothing and die from Ebola that can apparently transmit like common flu.

Inter-national teamwork could achieve mutually beneficial goals.

JF Aus, what you are saying amounts to heresy in some quarters!

In a world that is based upon Criminal Capitalism and Endless War and Righteous Racism, to talk about peace is, well..., unpatriotic.

Look, thanks to Phony, Australia is in the Middle East bombing and shooting to its heart's content so the world can continue to be exploited and plundered by the like of Murdoch and the Packers and Big Corporations and the IMF and the Yanks, the list is endless!

JF, soon, in Australia, you won't be able to write a comment like yours. The Thought Police will come to your door and take you to a Re-education Gulag run by some Psycho from Queensland. They'll keep you in a cage and force splinters under your nails until you recant!

I fear for you, my friend! The world is a dangerous place.

Clearly, Peacemakers are not welcome.

Having common sense could be different to being a peacemaker in this day and age.

Common sense indicates peace is better than catching Ebola during a worldwide outbreak without life saving medicine.

Besides, common sense shows solutions that could bring even more money around and into hands of those running the system/s.

Why shoot a messenger bringing good news?

Common sense indicates need for an urgent rethink about worldwide impact and consequences of Ebola.
This is not HIV AIDS that requires contact.
Ebola appears to be contagious like flu virus.

Common sense is absolutely essential now, surely.

Peace and prosperity now and more war in the distant future perhaps, seems the best way to go.

"Peace and prosperity now and more war in the distant future perhaps, seems the best way to go."

JF, what possessed to to add the words before the comma? Did Satan pop down the chimney? Did Christ bring you a jar of wine and some fishes? Did one of your roses bushes start burning? Are you currently a pillar of salt? Are virgins dancing around you enticingly?

I though you were a Messiah! Back to the drawing board!

JF I understand that Evola is a contact disease like HIV-Aids, not a virus, this could change if Evola mutates into an airborne disease like the flu, they are very clever, more so than we are, like death, then the elite and the wealthy of society will have to put up with the same fate as the poor people,the mad monk, the Saviour as of now, will not be able to blast them to bits with his budgie snuggler weapon.

Onjab,

Ebola is a virus.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2014/10/04/how-ebola-sped-out-of-control/

David G, there is need to use common sense and that also means being practical.

War mongers and the like that don't want peace may want to do my finger nails as you suggest. But if the war mongers etc know they can get back into their business of selling arms or whatever in the future, they may join in a truce and peace, at least until Ebola is contained.

I am not stupid enough to think war can be averted forever.

My genuine concern is about the already devastated state of whole world ocean seafood supply and unprecedented consequences in trying to feed 7 billion people daily during any new world war, plus impact of Ebola at the same time.

A truce right now would provide a chance to contain Ebola.
A truce would give time to significantly kick re-start the economies of all nations and that could give peace more of a chance long term.

People will go to work instead of war if they can earn $100 a day take home pay, for example.

Well David G and his motley cheersquad are what I call Conspiranuts. They are also what the Socialists call "Useful Idiots".

Last night on Lateline we saw Wassim Doureihi doing what he's been doing for years; over talking, refusing to answer questions, obfuscating, lying and treating everyone watching, like they are "Useful Idiots". Well guess what? He is seen by the radical elements in the Australian Islamic Community as someone to look up to. Hizb-ut Tahrir is proscribed in many countries, it should be here. But the "Useful Idiots" and others have prevented this from happening, with their multiculti support and branding of anyone commenting as a racist.

We are not at war with a State. There is no enemy government. We are up against a bunch of marauders. Supported by the not so bright and the fanatical. Supported by the Useful idiots, whether they admit it or not. Hizb-ut Tahrir has the same goals as Isil.

Isil kills indiscriminately. They rape, pillage and plunder. They are a barbarian horde. They should be treated accordingly. People like Doureihi should also be treated accordingly, for openly supporting such a group. When will we take a stand against this stupidity. When will we rid ourselves of Multiculti and go back to Integration as a settlement policy? In today's world it is the only sensible solution.

"Isil kills indiscriminately. They rape, pillage and plunder. They are a barbarian horde. They should be treated accordingly."

T800 said this. He sounds like a Ford truck. Writes much like a Ford truck too!

Put U.S.A in place of Isil and you have another correct statement.It reads: "U.S.A kills indiscriminately. They rape, pillage and plunder. They are a barbarian horde. They should be treated accordingly."

Are people in Australia so brain-dead that they can't see that this is true?

Hi David,

So ....... the US is beheading children ? Raping and enslaving women ? Butchering thousands of captured soldiers ?

Perhaps you would be kind enough to provide some documentation ?

But thanks for trying to be Useful.

Joe

Poirot I stand corrected, thank you, a seniors moment

Loud Goose,

No...(unless you count slaughtering innocents by drone)

But they do provide around 3 billion a year to Israel (almost all of it in military aid), who recently spent a few weeks chasing and slaughtering unarmed civilians in Gaza - and who since have stepped up their efforts to relieve Palestinians of their land.

Flappy Goose,

You mean the terrorists firing rockets at random into Israel ? provoking retaliation ? And that once the rockets stopped, the retaliation stopped ?

So what's your point ? Where is the US singling out and beheading children ? Where is the US identifying non-believer women, raping them and enslaving them ? Where are he US lining up prisoners and blowing their brains out, one by one ?

But thanks anyway for that Useful comment. I'm sure that HuT will find it encouraging and inciteful :)

Sometimes I think the only Left left are ex-Left.

Joe

What's your point, Loudy?

You are a particularly puerile debater.

No-one is denying the IS are rabid marauding extremists.

That doesn't let other countries off the hook for their own actions down through the years.

How many thousands of innocents died because of the sanctions and the Iraqi invasion?

Loudy Goose,

"So what's your point ? Where is the US singling out and beheading children ? Where is the US identifying non-believer women, raping them and enslaving them ? Where are he US lining up prisoners and blowing their brains out, one by one ?"

No...but their military aid is paying for this...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29279073

"The seasoned surgeons were shocked by the footage of the emergency room of the Shifa Hospital - Gaza's busiest - on 31 July, when more than 200 injured Palestinians were brought through its doors.

They were part of a team of British doctors from London's King's College Hospital who travelled to Gaza to set up a programme for advanced limb reconstruction for victims of war injuries."

"The human cost of the summer conflict with Israel was brutal: 2,104 Palestinians were killed and more than 10,000 people were injured in the small territory, and the chronically under-resourced Shifa was stretched to the brink in its response."

It's fascinating how you can rightfully point out the diabolical actions of IS...then totally dismiss the equally brutal actions carried out by Israel - against civilians herded into a ghetto.

And further to that you dismiss Israel's culpability in undermining peace agreements and continuing its dispossession of Palestinians.

"One of the big things that distinguishes Switzerland from the United States is its foreign policy. Unlike the U.S. government, the Swiss government does not maintain military bases in foreign countries. It doesn’t meddle in or intervene in the internal affairs of other countries. It doesn’t engage in bombing campaigns against foreigners. It doesn’t commit kidnappings, coups, torture, assassinations, and indefinite military detention of foreigners. It doesn’t partner with brutal foreign dictatorships. It doesn’t get involved in civil wars or conflicts between nations."

Poirot, this paragraph came from an article written by Jacob Hornberger and was published by ICH today.

I know Joe Motormouth won't be swayed by the intellectual argument but what can you do?

Flappedy Flap,

The rockets stop, the Israeli retaliation stops. End of.

" .... the equally brutal actions carried out by Israel" ?!

How many kids have the Israelis beheaded lately ? How many women raped and enslaved ? Thousands of prisoners lined up and shot ? Get a grip.

David,

Switzerland. You're kidding, right ? Why not try Iceland ? Costa Rica ? Swaziland ?

So what's your point ?

Slightly off-topic, but not really: Malala Yousafzai has been jointly awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. A seventeen-year-old girl has more decency and courage in her little toe than some of you apologists for fascism have in your entire bodies.

Joe

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39908.htm

Joe, the link is above. Read the article for yourself.

You should visit ICH each day. It will help you to become informed about the world you live in, perhaps change some of your strange views.

Loudy Goose,

"How many kids have the Israelis beheaded lately ?.."

That is a very good question.

I do recall during the recent slaughter, a photo on twitter of a doctor in Gaza holding up the body of a tot - minus its head.

I also recall the story of the father approaching a journalist with a plastic bag full of meat - the remains of his two year-old son.

If you cared to look at the thousands of deaths and injuries inflicted on Gazans in just this latest round of indiscriminate butchery, you'd find just as many appalling stories as the ones you throw up at us from IS.

But you don't appear to give a hoot about the people in Gaza who have just undergone this horrendous torment.

What's the difference - save that one group employs medieval methods and the other, 21st century advanced weaponry?

(You're the one who needs to get a grip)

Remember when the true horror of Rwandan genocide
was revealed to the world?

Many knew it was going to happen - including the
top level of the United Nations. - They knew that
the extermination of the Tutsis had been ordered and was
about to proceed. Politically moderate Hutu were also killed.

The world did not intervene, and since that dark day
any discussion about the role and responsibility if the
international community when one country sets about killing its
own people has become a vexed and faithless one.

Vexed becaue of the failure of some well-intentioned
interventions, and faithless because many simply do not
understand the point of the United Nations' existence if
it's not to uphold the important and still resonant
post World War II cry of "Never again."

David,

'Strange views' ? I read that Hornberger article, as you suggested, and I found it appalling, disgusting. So the US is to blame for beheadings ?

Despicable bullsh!t.

Goose,

It's always dreadful when any innocent person is killed. The deaths of people in Gaza are as important and tragic as the deaths of people in Syria or Iraq. But intent does come into it: the Israeli tactic of responding to random rocket attacks by bombarding and bombing parts of Gaza where they believe Hamas is hiding may not include the intent to blow children apart.

But to deliberately intend, and then to behead children, one by one, who are not of your group, to rape and enslave women, to massacre prisoners by the thousands, is really beyond comparison. You need to get a sense of proportion and the significance of intent.

I look forward to the time, Goose, when you have the decency and courage to come out and say:

ISIS is a fascist movement that must be eventually destroyed.

Can you bring yourself to type that ? And when Hamas joins ISIS, what will you say then ?

Or can I categorise you and your tag-team as members of SFF ?

Cheers,

Joe

Loudy Goose,

Israel deliberately targeted schools, hospitals and designated UN compounds...even after being given coordinates of those compounds, in one case 17 times - and in another 33 times.

They targeted "ambulances".

They "chased" men women and children up and down some areas of Gaza - slaughtering indiscriminately.

Stop making excuses for wanton slaughter depending on which point you are trying to make.... I would never mitigate IS's actions the way you mitigate Israel's.

"Intent" you say?

With pics streaming on twitter of tots blown to bits - still the rampage ensued.

Don't talk to me about "intent".

Don't be too hard on Joe. He is a throwback to medieval times when humans did not pretend to be civilized.

Since those dark times, human have been evolving backwards. Soon, we will be back in the trees and fighting each other with clubs and pointed bones.

I no longer have much faith in humans. To me, in the main, they are garbage.

And the worst humans are the ones who pretend to be civilized and intelligent while they commit the most hideous crimes against humanity (Isil, Yanks, Sharia-Muslims, Christian-Capitalists, Oligarchs, Clerics, Fascists, Warmongers, Politicians, Military Boffins, etc).

Let he who is without guilt, cast the first stone!

Tag-team,

So, you can't bring yourself to say "ISIS is a fascist movement" ?

Okay, what about "Socialists for Fascism" then ?

Not a word of condemnation (okay, David, that little gesture listing ISIS alongside the inevitable Yanks, and others) about what is going on at this moment, the extermination of Kurds in Kobane, for instance ?

All in good time. When Hamas declares itself for ISIS, you may want to reconsider.

Nah, they'll still be anti-American, therefore good, no matter what they do. Still your besties.

SFFs indeed.

Joe

Joe, it would appear that hurling insults at those who don't hold your extreme American-Apologist views is all that is left for you. That's infantile and suggests to me that you've lost the plot altogether.

Worship America if that floats your boat but keep in mind that elevating any nation or person to Saintly status is a clear sign of derangement. No nation is perfect, the U.S. least of all.

Perhaps you're aware of how America got rid of its Native Population? Perhaps you know about American slavery? Perhaps you've even heard of the American Civil War? And that was just the beginning of their brutality.

But I realize, Joe, that you reject any facts which don't support your American idolatry. Tell me, what are you going to tell your kids and grandchildren when the nuclear holocaust comes and seven billion people no longer exist!

You'll probably sing "God Bless America" to them!

David you are correct in what you write, the US is wanting to control the world, even in my life we have had the Cold War with Russia, Korean War, Vietnam war and present day wars, perhaps I have missed others with Sth America, always meddling where it shouldn't be, this creates hatred, is China surrounding us with weapons of mass destruction, is Russia doing the same, no they are not but the US is at them, it is not the general public who want wars, even the American people are sick to death of warmongering Governments, including their own.
The revolutions in France, Russia and Austria were to do with idiots controlling the ordinary citizens, they had to revolt because they were being kept in poverty owing to the rulers living in complete luxury, they were right in throwing them down wells and off with their heads, it really is no different now and it will become much worse, more poverty, more unrest.
Warmongering so called Christians like Abbott excell in killing as long as it is not them, when the plane came down Abbott pounced on Russia, no thought that it may have nothing to do with them, but the US may be involved, the US is quiet on this issue as fighter jets with machine guns were in air space at the time, doubt we will ever know the truth for a hundred years or so which is normal for untruths to become truths
We have three years to go for the next election, one only hopes we can have a statesman of quality by then and not the idiots, both Liberal and Labor we have now.

It's possible David is not entirely correct?

How can Switzerland be compared to America?
Switzerland keeps money for criminals and tyrants.
Hitler kept looted treasure there.

It was America that saved all of us during WWII, after trying to keep out of that war.

Americans came thousands of miles to Guadalcanal during WWII to fight for the freedom and life we have today.

If America had not strived over the years to keep peace in the world, what other nation would have?
Would we still have our freedom as we do today?

What other nation would have developed medicine and technology to the degree and of the standard America did? How many lives has that saved?

When the MH17 came down America immediately said it was a tragic mistake.
In first early news coverage I heard it was the Aus ABC - AM program director, not PM Abbott, that immediately blamed Russian leader Putin.
No trial, guilty according to an ABC employee.

The Aus ABC has been showing bias in news reports supporting the terrorists in Syria, the opposition, the rebels, the free Syria mobs, yet each apparently include lawless gangs and terrorists.

Even now Assad is being blamed by the ABC for 200,000 Syrian deaths, without anything being said about death caused by rebels, by the 'opposition' that started war while hiding among houses and civilians.

What has Assad done that is so bad? What has he been convicted of? Exactly what?
The quickest way to achieve peace is to assist Assad to regain control of all the different argumentative tribes and faiths.

Yes many Americans are sick of the wars, especially the maiming of their own people, balls and all blown right off, others crippled for life, many many dead.

Think who started the present Middle East conflict.
It was Osama Bin Ladin killers that invaded America, 9/11.

You knockers on this site should take a trip to Guadalcanal Island and look at the monuments and war wreckage where the carnage took place, instead of blowing people to bits in streets of Brisbane, Darwin and Sydney.

Tag-team,

So ISIS is a fascist movement, but you don't mind it ? Is that it ? Still beats supporting the Yanks ?

If there is to be a nuclear war, it is far more likely to arise out of the contending parties in the Middle east - especially the Saudis (and their nuclear backers, Pakistan) and Iran (and its nuclear backers, including India).

If anything, that's Obama's task - to keep those forces apart, precisely so that a nuclear war can be avoided. The Yanks will not start a nuclear war in that region in your lifetimes.

Wow, that takes us up to 2100.

Joe

2020 - Protocol To Be Observed By All Non-Americans.

1. When an American walks by, all non-exceptional people will bow deeply.

2. When sighting an American flag, make the sign of the Cross.

3. If Obama is shown on television, sing God Bless America, all verses.

4. If American Armed Forces march by, throw rose petals enthusiastically.

5. If American drones pass overhead, pray for forgiveness.

6. When drinking Coca Cola, use a silver chalice.

7. When approaching an American war-zone, never don a suit that repels radio-activity. It is un-American.

8. Wear a large sign that says: Yanks, Deliver Us From Evil For Thou Art The Power!

9. Tell all your friends: We love rendition and waterboarding and cages. Be sincere!

10. Once a week, attend an American checkpoint and confess all your inadequacies and anti-American thoughts and beg to be given leniency during the remedial flogging.

11. Once a week, curse your Mother because she’s not American.

12. On your car, carry a large sign which says: America, The World’s Greatest Nation.

Hi David,

Gosh, that will go down well amongst the other kids at West Footscray High tomorrow :) The Year v11 kids might think it's a bit childish but,

So what did that achieve ? You think nobody else can be as childish ? How's this:

1. Since they're not US, and in order to avoid premature 'detachment', suck up to an ISIS member, and kiss his @rse.

2. Lend him your sister; when he's finished, lend him your mother; if you hav e a brother under ten years old, lend him out to the boys; if you have a donkey, or a chook, he might prefer those.

3. In order for you not to become too 'detached', dob in your neighbour.

And so on. Not that hard, really.

BTT (sorry, Goose): There are better forces in the world, presumably, than the US. But there are worse forces - Assad, ISIS, al-Qa'ida (oh, you don't think it exists ?), Boko Haram, etc.

There are also vast populations which are under imminent threat of extermination, by not being Sunni AND Arab: Kurdish, for instance, or Yazidi. Or far worse, atheist.

Many of them call on the US for military support, tov prevent their extermination. B@stards ! Still, perhaps they have a point, not wanting to be 'detached'.

So the US has to work out priorities: Assad is a brutal dictator (how come authoritarians and their suckholes love brutality ? Perhaps the finality, the 'purity' of it); al-Nusra is a brutal force too; but ISIS is an even more brutal force.

So the US will be forced to toy with the idea of combatting ISIS and leaving Assad alone. But this will piss off the Turks and probably the Saudis. If they try to keep the Turks on-board, they may have to sell out the Kurds and I don't think they will do that.

Fiendish dilemmas !

[TBC]

"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer.

God bless America,
Land that I love,
Stand beside her, and guide her
Through the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam
God bless America, My home sweet home
God bless America, My home sweet home."

Joe, your mediocre, silly, vacuous response to my comment was anticipated. But don't lose heart.

I've included the words to 'God Bless America' so you can learn them, kind of get ready for what is coming when the American Imperium is established on Earth.

Hi David,

No, don't know that one: nice to see you know it off by heart. Who said primary education was futile ?

American patriotic songs are not really up my street, but they seem to be, shall we say, up yours.

Now, back to topic:

So maybe the best the US can hope for is to keep the Turks totally out of the current situation, even around Kobane. (Isn't it odd, that when the Yanks DON'T get involved, like in Rwanda or up until now in Syria, they get cursed for being isolationist ?)

But that will, by default, bring on the extermination of the Kurds around Kobane, and Kurdish bitter resentment against the Turks for doing nothing. A third of Turkey, the south-eastern third, is mostly Kurdish. Ergo, revolt.

The US will have to drive ISIS out of Iraq, ASAP, including Iraqi Kurdistan, so it will probably have to either send in troops, OR come to a tacit agreement with Iran to restrict themselves to the north and west, the Sunni heartland and Kurdistan, and leave Baghdad and the south, sort of de facto, to the Iranians, which won't please the Saudis.

I wish the Yanks well

Loudmouth, what evidence proves Bashar Al Assad is a brutal dictator?

"Mounting" evidence is not enough, like there was no evidence Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.

How someone becomes brutal cannot be proved by their background alone, there has to be proof of the brutality.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-the-cycle/201309/how-bashar-al-assad-became-brutal-dictator

What about the weaponry stolen from Syria by rebels? They even now have tanks.
Even a layman can understand that rebels could use chemical weapons stolen from the Syrian army to turn blame against Assad, to turn the people worldwide against Assad. It worked, but.

Assad is not so stupid as to use chemical weapons as Saddam Hussein was accused of doing.

Hi JF,

It's hard to keep up with opportunists :)

So YOUR bestie is Assad ? He has never used brutality against his own people ? Perhaps his father never did either ?

And Saddam never used poison gas against the Kurds ? Not at Halabja ? It's all an American lie ? B@stards !

Okay, thanks for being so Useful. Long live SFF.

Joe

Joe, moving to Canberra would be a good move for you. You'd be able to slip over to the U.S. Embassy each day to get your talking points and you'd be able to pass on your expertise on America-worship and how to turn Australia into another American State.

Apparently, Canberra is a great place to live and you'd be able to fly your Stars and Stripes and no one would notice.

P.S. The song about 'God Bless America' is rather flawed. It should read:

"From the mountains to the prairies we covered with blood of Indians and slaves.
God bless America, My home sweet home
God bless America, My home sweet home."

Hi Joe Loudmouth,

How about you just answer the question.

What evidence is there that proves Bashar Al Assad is brutal?

Never mind his father or grandmother, or that he inherited a dictatorship.

You surely are honest and strong enough to concede that perhaps the quickest way to bring peace would be for the west to help Assad to regain control.

Hi JFAus,

Barrel bombs. Poison gas. Bombing raids on his own people. Five million refugees.

For all that, if I were the Yanks, I would provide hold-your-nose, and behind-the-scenes support for Assad against ISIS: after all, you fight your worst enemies first, and go easy on your second-worst enemies, until later. I don't know how they would do that without alienating Turkey and the Saudis, so more likely the Yanks will focus on driving ISIS and other fascist groups out of Iraq, and just trying to degrade ISIS in Syria.

No easy solutions !

Joe

Joe,

Assad has not been proven guilty of the things he is accused of.

Come on, the man would have to be a total total idiot to do what Saddam Hussein was accused of and was hanged for.

The bombing among Assads own people as you say, was to fight the 'opposition' rebels including gangs and terrorists.
There was no fight against the people.

There was peace in Syria until the opposition rebels chose to rebel and hide among the people.

It's plain now to see Turkey wants Syria, like a few other nations. It looks like Turkey is sitting back waiting until the rebels take Kobane.
In fact Turkey has an agreement with the rebels, to leave the IS alone, I think regarding Kobane, and in return IS has already released about 30 Turkish hostages.

Clearly, the war on terror can be won as quickly as possible if there is union, teamwork, between all countries excluding the IS.

This is not just about terrorists now, the fundamental task right now is to control Ebola worldwide

Once again we are going to have stupid Abbott telling Putin he caused the death of all on Flight MH17, until the truth is known he should keep it shut, according to reports this plane was shot down by fighter jets of the US backed Kiev regime, it is being kept quiet by the US. Facts first please Abbott and stop talkin out of your bum.