Hi AJ,
I suggest you read Sagan (and Spinoza) again.
Neither gentleman suggested (as you inferred) that the Natural Laws were MADE by God, as someone carves an idol. Spinoza dared to differ in asserting that Nature, the Universe and all laws pertaining to and governing these things ARE God., hence Sagan's assertion that while an anthropomorphic god is clearly silly, to deny the existence of physical laws is madness.
Equally, when Einstein stated he did not believe “God plays dice with the Universe” he was not (as so many theists have gleefully claimed) admitting that he actually believed in an anthropomorphic god, or any god for that matter, merely that Heisenberg's uncertainty indicated a more chaotic view of the Universe than he himself was comfortable with.
The 3 letter word “god” is simply used in these instances as a kind of shorthand for that which is most wondrous. In Sagan's case (and probably the others) it was his sense of wonder, and his ability to convey that wonder to others that made him a great and likeable teacher.

Grim,

Yes, "doubt" is important and what separates the strident atheist from Huxley's agnosticism.

There is no "Strident Atheist" Bible or Qur'an by which I can justify murderous actions.

Atheists should exercise their democratic rights within a pluralistic society to argue for state funding of secular education only, references to God to be removed from all statutes, legal euthanasia, etc. They have the right to try to convince others down their path, but that's it.

My proposals were completely in jest, obviously, and not some thin edge of the wedge that would ultimately pit atheists against theists in warfare.

One thing is for sure, murderous martyrdom is not encouraged in the atheistic faith.

Thanks david f. This is paining (and surprising) me too.

I never got around to mentioning that I take your point about Buddhism.

Grim,

I’m not sure how you get the idea that I've inferred that Sagan and Einstein suggested natural laws were made by God. And despite Einstein’s views on this matter being highly complex and a little ambiguous at times, I agree that “the 3 letter word “god” is simply used in these instances as a kind of shorthand for that which is most wondrous”.

It turned out to be very counter-productive and a source of needless confusion too.

I’m also not sure how your response negates anything I've said in regards to your Sagan quote. At best, the quote was a statement that ended with a non sequitur pointing out the bleeding obvious.

better luck next time david
[the inner voice..doth only wisper..
to those paying attention]

spirit ensures
if it needs saying..it gets said

anyhow luci said..quote..""One thing is for sure,
murderous martyrdom..is not encouraged..in the atheistic faith.""

i will try to ignore..that others i-gnored
..'athiest faith'..lol

but neither too
does the general 'religeous lable..genericly..validate it true neither

there are insane
in athiest and not athiest alike

so let be fair..not lable as athiest/thiest..
those..who clearly are mad..[in-sane]

any reasond thin-king..would see..:
god made life...life dies..

but its an insult
to your own gift of life..to take other life

how is the life giving good..[god]
served by any death?

so much bad..in religeon..and so much good..in atiesm
they are generalisations...

and we arnt all generals

in fact we each are
specificly..the bit we be

i am..is in me..i am
is being you in you

together me is in we..
and we is in theee

not just me
nor thee

even if your not sure your believing rightly
its best to believe the belief..that brings you your peace

belief
if you got it

dissbelief
if dissing..others belief
is your relief belief

Science and Spirituality Agree:
The Entire Universe is One

YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pIJHJzDQcRM

Modern Science is now
beginning to confirm what Spirituality, Philosophy,
Sages, Ancient teachings and psychedelics have been saying for millennia,

that the entire Universe is One
and that what we think of as "reality"..is just an illusion..

And the only real thing..in the Universe is Consciousness.

"If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you,
you haven't understood it..yet." --Niels Boh

clearly missing the point
try again

happy rebirth chris
your honoured by the words
""To die without illusions..is to die a strong man.""

now if i deney the words
are the words awords

or is non belief in quantum physics
aquantum/physics..[sic*]

or non sic an asic*..[sic]
to die without delusions....presumed aillusionists
donr presume they cant die..[nor be an adie]..to die refutes adie

how about a believer in life..[a living]
as opposed to one who is alining...[anyhow chris]

all the best from an a-chriss delusionist
who died not realising the delusion of their illusion

but heck
you got your dissbelief's earned fruits
just as much as 'nelievers'..suffer their own delusion's

only good grace mercy charity
is knowably real./..

just like the ills
we cant tell illusion..from fact..
except via a life lived...consciously..shining light upon ignorances

if its not about gnosis
its about agnosis
in ignorance
by denial