On 4 Corners (ABC) tonight there will be a program discussing the horrendous murder rate of Indigenous women, which is said to be 12 times the national average and in some localities it is the highest in the World.

How could it come to this in Australia?

Come to this? It has been going on for a long time, and only the people involved can stop it, while the ridiculous Labor government is concerned only with virtue signalling via a voice to parliament, which is the last thing aboriginal people in remote communities would be interested in.

Amid clamour for the Voice among the Left it is virtually impossible to find anyone willing to make feet-on-the-ground, long-term commitments to helping Aboriginal people in remote communities. That would involve confronting real people with real problems and sacrificing the trappings of inner-city life.

Dear Is Mise,

This is a huge issue, most of it stemming form poverty and poor access to services. It needs a concerted effort to deal with it.

The murder rate in the NT is getting close to that of the US which is horrendous.

What is mindblowing is that someone like you, an avowed gunrights advocate, who has longed for American style gun "freedoms" which would turn our cities and schools into war zones, is raising high murder rates as an issue.

You really don't get to do that without getting called out.

Steele,
The murder rate for indiginous women is almost twice the US murder rate, which stood at 6.52/100,000 in 2020, the latest figures that I could find,

The rest of your post is irrelevant, inaccurate and untrue,; are you vying with Goebbels for OLO fool of the month?

This has to be taken seriously, the system is failing Aboriginal women, from the government, police and the judiciary there is a lack of understand of the problem, and how best to deal with it. Steele, you are right poverty and social inequality are the root cause, but action is needed now.

Why is something not being done about this if it's been
going on for decades? Where's Senator Jacinta Price on this?
What has she done about any of it for her people? For that
matter - what about Marcia Langdon and Linda Burney? There are
so many good Indigenous female leaders - where are they in
real terms of helping other Indigenous women? I don't want to
finger-point at anyone - but action is needed and it's needed
now.

Here is the link from "Four Corners," :

http://abc.net.au/news/2022-10-24/murdered-and-missing-indigenous-women-four-corners/101546186

As I've said often on these pages, aboriginal society was and remains highly misogynistic and therefore violent against women.

In pre-European times, women were mere chattels of the male elder, able to be sold and traded, beaten often and severely and used as pack-mules. While that notion of the order of things has largely been breed out of the more urbanised natives, it remains strong in the more recently settled areas like the desert regions and the NT.

Consequently, violence toward women remains acceptable in that sub-society.

Although western society should aim to forcibly eradicate this stone-age thinking, it has the self-imposed problem of dealing with its own notions of racism. So, while using the force of law against the violent men would be expected, fears of accusations of racism, efforts to NOT incarcerate aboriginal men or break-up families tends toward a hands-off approach.

When we see society raise itself against domestic violence (although never violence BY women) it is usually white men who are stigmatised. Aboriginal women are 40 times more likely to suffer domestic violence but society averts its gaze lest it be forced to increase the numbers of native men in gaol.

Its a lose/lose situation. Be accused of racism by targeting the violent men or racism for not targeting the violent men.

But one thing we can be sure of....no matter what, it'll be the fault of the Europeans.

If poverty is a cause then we should have the same murder rate among others who are impoverished.

We've all seen documentaries on the subject of how sexist
Australia is and how it compares to the rest of the world.
Apparently the newest data shows that - we're not doing so well.

But of course what do you expect from those pesky women
complaining. After all Australia's entire history has always
been pro-female and very fair - hasn't it. Men are fine and
very tolerant - as long as the women know their place.

http://smh.com.au/national/new-research-revealing-australian-attitudes-towards-women-shocks-two-former-prime-ministers-20220309-p5a2yj.html

Get over it. Stop the nosey-parker do-goodism, These people are subject to the same laws as all other Australians. They murder someone, the law deals with it.

ttbn,
That’s part of the problem, how the law deals with it.
To often the Law gives a smack on the wrist.

Is Mise

Again, same laws, same wrist-slapping for all groups in Australia. Unless you are suggesting blackfellas are treated differently?

ttbn,
Perish the thought, one law forball is the Australian way, of course, if one of the murderers mentioned on the program hadn’t been let out of gaol after he stabbed a woman to death his next unfortunate victim may well have been alive today.

Is Mise

Well yes. But the people calling for the government to 'do something' are very often the same people who complain about the number of aboriginal males in jail. As for the government 'doing something', we have adequate laws to deal with murderers; all governments can do - and should do - is take more interest in whom they appoint as judges, for that is where the fault lies. They could also find out WHY aboriginal women are 12 times more likely to be murdered than women in the rest of the population.

I would think that murders and assaults will be on the rise again since that genius Albanese lifted the ban on alcohol in townships, and removed the cashless card, which will see old people and women having their money violently removed from them by males after grog money. It will be much easier for those who have been breaking and entering in Alice Springs and Darwin to get money and anything that can be sold for grog.

Governments have outsourced many of their responsibilities to judges who are making political decisions without political responsibilities.

"If poverty is a cause then we should have the same murder rate among others who are impoverished."

If you make the trek out to some of the socially disadvantaged suburbs of Sydney and Melbourne and check out the crime rate in those burbs, you might understand. Dysfunctionality which inherently leads to poverty and crime is not simply a product of race or skin colour, it begins with social disadvantage.

it begins with social disadvantage.
Paul1405,
Yes, so why prolong this dreadful situation by bleating disadvantage instead of getting up & make use of the countless initiatives available ?
In our town during most nights you see & hear those disadvantaged roaming the parks & streets screaming & yelling abuse at each other & smashing bottles etc. All of them have families AND homes provided by Govt so why not make use of them ?
People from way outside their towns are needed to perform basic daily tasks because many of these disadvantaged are sleeping it off in the parks during the day. Their own people are doing more than they should be doing for these disadvantaged yet nothing changes.
It is my observation that as many as 95% of homeless are not genuinely homeless, they merely shirk responsibility & lack it as well. The genuine homeless are the ones authorities fail miserably & those in authority must be made way more accountable ! They're the ones with their insane bureaucrat salaries forsaking the genuine needy !

We don’t have the same murder rate among other impoverished groups.
Why not if poverty is a cause?

Just checking the stats about crime in Sydney, and disadvantaged burbs like Blacktown, Mount Druitt and surrounds have exceedingly higher crime rates than the more affluent burbs of the north and east. Having said that I don't think those western suburbs are at the rock bottom level of some of those more remote communities.

Issy, do you have an answer to the problem?

Too often the law gives just a slap on the wrist?

Damn straight - police officers who take part in
the miss-treatment of our Indigenous people in remote
communities - especially in the NT - are still part
of the force.

It's a cultural thing. Nothing will be solved until the bedwetters stop hiding behind cultural relativism.

Have a look at some of the Dorothy Dix questions posed by social engineers in search engines like Google. Here's one: "Is aboriginal culture violent?"

Tap the little ^ for the answer and, surprise, surprise, the answer is 'no' - despite the fact that history (in primary source documents) clearly describes the brutality and harshness of the culture, particularly where women and children are concerned.

No real person asks these questions: they are put up jobs for social engineers to pull the wool over our eyes.

Foxy,
References?

Dear Is Mise,

You reallycan be clueless sometimes.

You say: "The murder rate for indiginous women is almost twice the US murder rate, which stood at 6.52/100,000 in 2020, the latest figures that I could find."

So that would put it at around 13/100,000.

Yet the figures for 2021 say...

Memphis, Tenn. 306 homicides. The homicide rate was 48.7 per 100,000.

Detroit 303 homicides. The homicide rate was 47.9 per 100,000.

Now Detroit is certainly know for its poverty after the collapse of its industries so that would be a big factor as it is in Aboriginal communities. But the kind of gun ownership and 'freedoms' that you want for this country would be a huge contributor.

"It's a cultural thing. Nothing will be solved until the bedwetters stop hiding behind cultural relativism."

Spot on.

the problem of aboriginal domestic violence/murder is the same as it has been for decades. To address the problem you have to identify that its a cultural issue with the aboriginal males treating their women the way they've been treated for millennia.

When society wants to address domestic violence in the wider community, it has no problem or compunction about laying the blame squarely at the feet of white men.

But to do that with regard the aboriginal community would require recognising the cultural aspect to the vastly greater levels of domestic violence there and accepting that the pre-European society wasn't the Disneyfied utopia that they imagine. But that is a bridge too far - better that a few more women die than have to admit that.

So they go looking for other 'solutions' which absolves the culture. Those other 'solutions', tried over and over again, never yield any positive outcomes, but they'll continue to be tried, because the alternative is just too much for the aboriginal apologists to face.

Dear mhaze,

Rubbish as usual.

I live in a semi rural shire and the domestic violence rates are over 10 times that of our close major city.

There is a lot of disadvantage and isolation in the smaller communities across the shire which are vastly made up of white families.

There is currently 100's of thousands of dollars being directed toward the issue just at a Shire level.

There have been no calls for 'white farmers' to accept it is a 'cultural issue' even though is has been ingrained over generations. Instead pathways and solutions are being offered to try and stem the violence.

Why shouldn't that be extended to aboriginal communities in the same manner without pontifications from people like you?

"I live in a semi rural shire and the domestic violence rates are over 10 times that of our close major city."

I call bullsh!t. Show us the numbers.
AFIS numbers show that domestic violence rates in regional and remote areas are higher than urban areas by a few percent only - not your fictitious 1000%.

But even if true (and did I mention its bullsh!t?) even ten times higher is dwarfed by the 35 times higher rates of domestic violence experienced by aboriginal women. ("Aboriginal women are 35 times more likely to be hospitalised due to family violence related abuse (ANROWS 2014)").

Its a cultural thing and until its recognised as a problem with the culture, nothing will change.

As we all should know by now mhaze, SR is a great writer of fairy stories.

I wonder if he gets them published in kids story books, or simply keeps them for this site?

Dear mhaze,

The figures on the rural parts of our Shire were done in the context of farmer suicide rates. In comparison to our neighbouring city they were 10.2 times the rate per 100,000. They were obtained through confidential surveys as there is a markedly greater reluctance to officially report domestic violence in rural areas.

I am not going to identify my Shire on an open forum.

But the assertion that the difference is a few percent is just ludicrous.

Here is a link to the family violence incidence reporting by Victoria police.

In 2021 the more lifestyle Macedon Ranges Shire had a rate of domestic violence incidents of 858.4 per 100,000. The neighbouring, far more rural Central Goldfields Shire, had rates of 2,451.4 per 100,000, nearly 3 times the rate.

If you again isolate the rural parts of the CGS by taking out the urban area of Maryborough the differences would climb dramatically. http://www.crimestatistics.vic.gov.au/family-violence-data-portal/family-violence-data-dashboard/victoria-police

Now where is a link to your figures saying the difference is a few percent?

It is an indisputable fact that white farmers are bashing their wives and kids at vastly higher rates than those in the cities. My grandfather who was a policeman in a small rural town use to attest to this as an ongoing issue. It is unfortunately ingrained through generations.

Why isn't this deemed a cultural issue?

Oh so we've gone from 10 times greater to 3 times greater...and I barely pushed. A couple of more posts and I could it down to parity.

http://aifs.gov.au/sites/default/files/publication-documents/cfca-resource-dv-regional_0.pdf

(Note also that rural data includes aboriginals so the difference between non-aboriginal city and rural numbers is likely lower still.)

This or that survey are valuable. But data about hospitalisations are based on actual events and are therefore unassailable...."Aboriginal women are 35 times more likely to be hospitalised due to family violence related abuse (ANROWS 2014)"... http://www.cwpracticelive.facs.nsw.gov.au/@home-truths/2015/04/16/36239/family-violence-in-aboriginal-communities

But I get that you don't want this to be true, so aboriginal women being hospitalised at horrific rates will be ignored.

People of aboriginal descent living in urban areas, and adopting the mainstream culture, do not murder their wives as do those still living in remote communities where the culture is still close to the old culture - apart from the dole, unemployment, lack of education, lack of law, plus the grog.

It's the culture, stupid. And you can blame the living-museum policies of those two bastards Whitlam and Coombes, and now the neo-Marxists in general .

Dear mhaze,

You utter buffoon. Your own bloody article totally makes my point.

Quote

“Women in regional, rural and remote areas are more likely than women in urban areas to experience domestic and family violence.

Women living in regional, rural and remote areas who experience domestic and family violence face specific issues related to their geographical location and the cultural and social characteristics of living in small communities.

There is a common view in rural communities that “family problems” such as domestic and family violence are not talked about, which serves to silence women’s experience of domestic and family violence and deter them from disclosing violence and abuse.

Fear of stigma, shame, community gossip, and a lack of perpetrator accountability deter women from seeking help.

A lack of privacy due to the high likelihood that police, health professionals and domestic and family violence workers know both the victim and perpetrator can inhibit women’s willingness to use local services.

Women who do seek help find difficulty in accessing services due to geographical isolation, lack of transportation options and not having access to their own income.”

End quote.

A whole bloody raft of reasons why there is dramatic under reporting of domestic violence in rural areas.

How is this pearler:

“However, in the NSW data cited above, the top 10 localities for domestic and family violence in NSW included some predominately white, agricultural areas”.

Further the most often quoted study in the paper was “Loddon Campaspe Community Legal Centre. (2015) Bendigo” Loddon has an indigenous population of just 1.6% and Campaspe of 3%.

You have simpered in with your usual utterly disingenuous clap trap right on schedule. Pathetic really doesn't do it justice.

You can't win a trick on these things can you so you resort to mistruths and misrepresentation.

But kicking such a spectacular own goal is becoming a real trend for you isn't it.

But just for giggles I will ask again: “Now where is a link to your figures saying the difference is a few percent?”

Steeie,
The US murder rate for this year is 4.96.
Were I to cherry pick Indigenous communities as you picked US cities to suit your agenda I could, no doubt, come up with similar figures for Aboriginal female rates.

I note that you are still struggling with Psychology 101, keep at it I’m sure you’ll eventually master it.

Dealing directly with those who are responsible for domestic violence is necessary in the short term.
But longer term, finding the cause of violence in the community, and doing something constructive about it, is what we have to do.
What social pressures are making some people leave reason behind, and revert to instinctive behaviour.
Financial woes, lack of opportunity, oppressive laws? Alcoholism?
Just what is it?
And why are some better able to deal with these difficulties?
We don't all become violent and harmful when things go wrong.
And if no clear cause is found, the law must be applied fairly and firmly.
Not with harshness. Not with cruelty. But with impartiality.

It is noted how apologists for aboriginal male violence- SR in particular - brazenly turn the topic from MURDER of aboriginal women to domestic violence among the hated white population. There are varying degrees of domestic violence, unlike MURDER.

I've been too kind. It is not apologising for aboriginal violence, in this case: it is apologising for aboriginal MURDER.

Dear Is Mise,

The Population of the NT is around 250,000, murder rate 8.1 per 100,000.

Detroit is 600,000 with a homicide rate of 47.9 per 100,000.

Sure poverty blights sections of both communities but the overriding factor is gun ownership of which you are a proponent.

Gun ownership is often expressed as part of American culture.

Here we are claiming aboriginal violence is part of their culture and they need to be the ones to fix it. However we have real issue with domestic violence in rural communities, but we don't call it cultural and we inject substantial funds toward attempting to address it.

All I have done is called that out. I am not excusing any of the violence but this seems to have gotten the usual noses out of joint.

And I am, as always, happy to be of service in that regard.

Steele,
As gun ownership is at an all time high in the US and the murder rate is falling and the number of guns in civilian hands in Australia is higher than before Port Arthur and the murder rate is falling, it would seem that more guns makes for a safer society.

Do you not agree?

Wow SR, lots of tantrum throwing in there. All bluster, no facts. While I do worry about your cognitive facilities, at least we can be clear that they aren't so bad that you know that your only response has to manically shout.

As soon as you raised the utterly bogus theory about rural domestic violence rates, I wrote agreeing that indeed they are higher in rural/regional regions than urban centres. Now you tell me I'm a buffoon because the report I used shows that they are higher in rural/regional regions than urban centres. Logic takes a holiday!

Now we know that logic is not your friend when you realise you've painted yourself into a corner, but this takes the cake.

I hesitate to use numbers since, by definition you'll get lost, but you've claimed that region rates are 300% to 1000% higher than urban rates while the data shows it's orders of magnitude lower than that.

In the meantime, data shows that rural aboriginal rates of DV are indeed up to 35 TIMES higher than urban rates. SR makes up data to try to refute that and then wants to argue at the margins over few percentage points here or there while ignoring numbers like 3500%. Dill.

Meanwhile I wrote..."But I get that you don't want this to be true, so aboriginal women being hospitalised at horrific rates will be ignored."....and SR ignored it. Next breathe he'll be telling us how heart-felt is his concern for the natives. Hypocrite.

So to return to the main point....ultimately the problem here is the nature of aboriginal culture which persists in the less assimilated parts of that culture. Until that is addressed, aboriginal women will continue to die at the hands of the intimate partners. And the woke will continue to avert their gaze.

It's very easy to problematise cultures. Many of us
tend to use cultural superiority in our conceptualisation
of other cultures. Not only that but this can lead to
the further exclusion of vulnerable people.

"It's a cultural thing," is a subtle form of racism that
happens in many settings and it is something that our
First Nations Australians, immigrants, and refugees are
only too familiar with. It's language that's been used regarding
people who've already been marginalised by those in position of
power. It's also relegating responsibility elsewhere.

By all means lets look at the causes of the problems - but lets
look deeper - than just brushing it aside as a "cultural thing."

I lived in a small town in the Riverina for a number of years. The life expectancy was lower, and alcoholism was more prevalent, but certainly, the instances of domestic violence were nowhere near 10x that of the cities.

The majority of deaths of aboriginal women are due to DV which from what I've heard is 30-40x that of non-aboriginal communities. It is lower in the cities but still much higher than normal.

I understand that alcohol and drug abuse seriously aggravate the problem. Stopping this would require severe intrusions against the rights of these communities.

Foxy,
Watkin Tench, of the First Fleet, recorded in his journal that Aboriginal women were severely beaten.
It wasn’t introduced by the Europeans but seems to have been part of local culture.

"I lived in a small town in the Riverina" so that's where the Village Nazi comes from!

Watkin Tench is a good source of information and a great observer of aboriginal culture. Unfortunately the Left denialists are not interested in primary source source documents; they prefer the luvvy duvvy fairy tales written by modern wankademics recently.

Dear mhaze,

All that guff, bluff and bluster just to avoid answering the question I have already put to you twice.

You had claimed: "that domestic violence rates in regional and remote areas are higher than urban areas by a few percent only"

I again ask: "Now where is a link to your figures saying the difference is a few percent?”

SR,

"I again ask: "Now where is a link to your figures saying the difference is a few percent?”"

I gave you the link. Do you want me to read it for you as well?

"The ABS’ Personal Safety Survey (2013)
showed that 21% of women living outside
of capital cities had experienced violence
from an intimate partner since the age of
15 (compared to 15% of women living in a
capital city)."

http://aifs.gov.au/sites/default/files/publication-documents/cfca-resource-dv-regional_0.pdf

SR, you claimed the difference between city and regional was 1000% then retreated to 300% when called out. But the difference is far smaller than that...see above.

But all that is just your usual gumph. Aboriginal women are suffering DV at epic rates that far exceed even your concocted numbers. The reason is clear but obviously opaque to you. I can't help you there.

Foxy hits the nail on the head.

To her and many others, criticising the culture is essentially racist. And for them being racist or thought of as racist is an unbearable horror.

So rather than look at the problem with clarity, they want to ignore the elephant in the room and look for some other cause.

Of course, routing the epic levels of aboriginal DV back to culture isn't racist at all. No one is suggesting that the urbanised natives are perpetrating DV in numbers out of the mainstream. It is only those aboriginals who have yet to be absorbed into the prevailing culture and who continue to live something approaching their original lifestyle, where women were chattel and beating was accepted, even expected.

While the 'woke' desperately try to void being labelled 'racist, aboriginal women will continue to suffer DV at epic rates. But that's OK - let's face it, anything is better than being racist.

Right again, mhaze. The majority of people with aboriginal backgrounds have escaped from the Stone Age culture that is the problem. The Marxists denialists who deliberately avoid this obvious fact are not worth arguing with; they are too thick, or too intent on trashing their own culture. Ignore them.

ttbn,
You’re to easy on them; they hate Watkin Tench and wuld erase him from our history if they could, so they do their next best thing and ignore him.
But he won’t go away!!

Is Mise

The 'erasing' of history immediately reminded me of Pol Pot. I wondered if he provided a an online correspondence course to the OLO Marxists before his demise.

Dear mhaze,

You really do make my day sometimes. You really can be the most disingenuous of posters can't you.

I was comparing the domestic violence rates of my Shire's rural areas to our neighbouring city.

You plucked your supposed counter evidence from a quote which talked about the difference between those within CAPITAL CITIES and those in regional areas.

In Victoria like other states we have many regional as in non-capital cities like Geelong, Ballarat, Bendigo. There are 14 of them in fact which make up an urban population containing the majority of those living in regional areas.

The rates of those experiencing domestic violence in our small farming communities within our Shire is 10 times that of our neighbouring regional city.

The example I gave of two semi rural shires showed the one with the higher percentage of farming families had triple the reported incidents of domestic violence. And as your own bloody article acknowledges there is serious under reporting going on within rural communities.

Mate you really are on a hiding to nothing and all this defensive posturing makes you look even sillier than usual.

Move on.

SR,

Even for you that's pathetic. Your original assertion (claim without facts) was that the difference between your rural shire and the adjacent "major city" was 10 times. That became 3 times when called out.

Now I've provided evidence that the difference is orders of magnitude less and you want to quibble between "major city" and "capital city". Dill.

Either way, you've been exposed.

In the meantime you try very hard to ignore the fact that rural aboriginal DV exceeds all these numbers (including your concocted ones) by orders of magnitude.

SR, we've known for a long time that you struggle as soon as the discussion turns to numbers. I'll leave you in peace to ponder why that might be.

mhaze,

"Even for you that's pathetic!"

Try again. Go back and re-read what I actually
said on page 7. You missed the point being made.
In summary what I was suggesting was to look at
the causes of the problems, to look deeper than
brushing them all aside as just a "cultural
thing."

Regarding Watkin Tench?

The following link is worth a read:

http://corapeople.com.au/tag/watkin-tench/

"The well-educated Tench was motivated by his
British sense of superiority and culture. He had
stories to tell and books to write about the
"savages" at Port Jackson that had been contracted with
publishers before he left Britain.

Excuse my typo - here's the link again:

http://eurapeople.com.au/tag/watkin-tench/

last try:

http://eorapeople.com.au/tag/watkin-tench/

No it didn't become "3 times" at all you buffoon. I referenced reported DVs between 2 distinct Shires which as your own bloody article says would have been under reported in the more rural one.

Look mate, you've been skinned alive on this one and now are resorting to little pissant responses which do not represent what was put at all.

The fact you can't seem to be able to argue on the merits anymore is quite telling. Why do you bother fronting up any more,

Foxy,
So you discovered Watkin Tench, good on yer.

That's what I do
I read books
I drink coffee
AND I KNOW THINGS!

Foxy wrote, quoting me, "Even for you that's pathetic!".

But...but...but I wasn't writing that about you Foxy. That was directed at SR who'd heaped fable upon fable to try to create his own fact-devoid narrative about DV.

I was indeed agreeing with you Foxy. You don't want the cause of the epic levels of aboriginal violence to be about their culture because that'd be racist and I was agreeing that most people are with you on that.

There's an old psychological treatise called the Streetlight Effect....
"A policeman sees a drunk man searching for something under a streetlight and asks what the drunk has lost. He says he lost his keys and they both look under the streetlight together. After a few minutes the policeman asks if he is sure he lost them here, and the drunk replies, no, and that he lost them in the park. The policeman asks why he is searching here, and the drunk replies, "this is where the light is".

This is just like that. The real cause of the aboriginal violence is clear ("in the park") but the woke don't want to find it there because its racist. So they keep looking under the streetlight. After 30 years they still haven't found it, but looking elsewhere would be untenable.

"AND I KNOW THINGS".

"It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.”

Ronald Reagan

mhaze,

Many look for solutions in the wrong places seeking
the truth where the process of seeking is easy
rather than where the truth is. Hence the "streetlight
effect."

" Dark times lie ahead of us and there will be a time
when we must choose between what is easy and what is
right." Albus Dumbledore.
J. K. Rowling.

Ronald Reagan also said:

"There's no limit to the amount of good you can do
if you don't care who gets the credit.

Gary Johns ('The Burden of Culture') writes, "Those (aborigines) who escape the culture succeed. Those Aborigines who remain captive find culture a burden.

Is anyone surprised that Is Mise, ttbn, mhaze, Indyvidual and Hasbeen are crying crocodile tears from their redneck bunker for Aboriginal women, murdered or otherwise. They are using this as another excuse to bucket on Aboriginal people. They have the same concern for Aboriginals as does the KKK for African Americans. NONE!

Thanks for the above, about down to standard.

Paul,

If you go back over my posts over the years (well not you but someone interested in truth) you'd see that I've been talking about the the epic levels of DV against aboriginal for years.

Who is the most racist? - those who urge solutions by addressing the cultural problems, or those who'd prefer that the problems continue rather than criticise the culture.

Paul claims to support aboriginal women but in fact supports aboriginal culture despite its misogyny.

mhaze, where is your evidence that it's Aboriginal culture that causes high levels of DV in their community, and not social disadvantage. If you look at our cities and the areas where DV is highest, you will see it's also in the areas of the highest social disadvantage, nothing to do with Aboriginality or culture.

Beat a brown dog with a stick, and he will most likely bite you. It has nothing to to with the fact the dog is brown, but more to do with the beating with a stick. And that is not a reflection on dogs, just a fact.

Domestic violence occurs in all cultures, even matriarchal ones, and within living memory it happened in mainstream Australian culture; women were subject to their husbands and even to open a bank account needed their husbands signature (permission).
Beating his wife was a husband’s prerogative and the law took no notice unless he went to far and caused grievous bodily harm or killed her.
Black eyes were not uncommon and the wife had little help, even family would turn a blind eye, although sometimes family got positively involved.
I remember coming home and telling my parents that I’d seen Mr Blank with two black eyes and his nose in plaster and he was walking funny.
Dad remarked to mum that Blank’s wife’s brothers must have had a talk to him.
Later I overheard (alright I was listening in) dad telling mum that Blank’s wife threatened to leave him if he ever beat her again, so he gave her a real belting and took her against her will ( it was some years before I knew what that meant) and she went home to her parents.
Dad said that she shewed her brothers her bruises and told them everything; they interviewed her husband, broke his nose, blacked his eyes and broke two ribs and that he was walking funny because they hit him where it really hurts.
Such happenings were rare however and husbands got away with a lot.
Mainstream culture has changed and for the better but domestic violence still goes on.

Watkin Tench clearly shewed that violence towards women was cultural in Aboriginal society and a 12 times higher murder rate shews that extreme violence is still part of that culture.

" The well-educated Tench was motivated by his
British sense of superiority and culture. He had
stories to tell and books to write about the
"savages" at Port Jackson that had been contracted with
publishers before he left Britain."

http://eorapeople.com.au/tag/watkin-tench/

If it were just Tench, then dismissing his observation might be acceptable. But it's not just Tench. There are any number of other early observers/writers who noted the plight of the aboriginal women.

There is also the historic evidence of aboriginal women being sold by their owners/elders to Chinese traders and early European sealers/whalers. (This was part of the reason for the decline of the Tasmania natives whose birth rate declined precipitately due to the extensive loss of women, traded/sold for grog and flour).

Finally there is archaeological evidence from ancient bones where it is found that females through the ages suffered bone and skull fractures at levels unseen in other stone age peoples. That is part of the reason why the aboriginal industry is trying to stop examination of ancient bones - to hide the facts as to the nature of their ancestors

Of course there are "any number of observers" who attested to the brutality of indigenous culture in original documents - all witnessed at the time. Some ideologs just don't want to know, so they fossick around for mere opinions by contemporary cowboys as overboard as they are themselves.

There is no substitute for the real thing; and there is no sense to be had from pigheaded, ignorant story-tellers and their gullible audiences. Ignore them.

Foxy is extremely well and widely tead and understands perfectly well as she has a degree in English (she has told us so) therefore to attempt to disparage Watkin Tench, when she is fully aware of the other evidence, is strange to say the least.
What having contracted to write a book has to do with the veracity of the author escapes me, many, if not most authors contract to write books and after their first successful publication wii seek/obtain an advance to fund research/expenses.

Here is just one example of how history can be twisted after the facts by modern activists and ideologues:

The term “Stolen Generations” was first coined in 1981 by a then unknown postgraduate history student named Peter Read who wrote the 20-page pamphlet in a single day outlining his case. Significantly, the original title was “The LOST Generations” but his wife advised him to substitute the more attention-getting adjective, STOLEN.

The lie continues today.

Why blame me for quoting from a given source?
Read the given link - and if you don't like what's being
said - give evidence to dispute it. Disagree without
rancor. Please.

Now back to the topic.

Violence against Indigenous women is deeply ingrained in
Australia's colonial history which we know condoned the murder,
rape, and sexual abuse of Indigenous women.

Indigenous people
have for hundreds of years suffered gendered violence at the
hands of colonisers. Aboriginal women have fought against
gendered violence perpetuated by white men since day one.

The allegations, cover ups, and silence on gendered violence
in federal parliament is part of the same system of abuse
and the same lack of lethal and political consequences.

The government's 4th action plan to reduce violence
against women and their children, 2010 - 2022, claims one of
its priorities is to "support Aboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander women and their children."

Sadly, such prioritising has not led to real change.

There is a great need of support from both the government
and also for
the public to speak out against gendered violence instead
of leaving the women and children out of the conversation.

The Human Rights Council in Australia has made it clear that
it is really time for Australia to take this issue seriously
and take the blinkers off and start valuing the lives of
Aboriginal women and girls of this country. Action needs
to be taken.

Foxy
What’s all that got to do with the extremely high murder rate of Indigenous women?
Take off your blinkers.

If you're not able to understand without an explanation.
You will not understand it with an explanation.

Foxy,
I understand it only to well it’s cultural and has been since time immemorial, as has been said, archaeological evidence points to females being injured at a rate much higher than among other people.
Even wild animals treat their females better.
If poverty were the cause today what was the cause in Tench’s day?
Or is Tench completely unreliable because he contracted to write a book?
Or is hir reliability in question because of his social status?

You don't understand it at all.

Perhaps you should try watching the TV series -
"Horrible Histories."

"Perhaps you should try watching the TV series -
"Horrible Histories.""

Well disagree without rancour didn't last long, did it?

"Aboriginal women have fought against
gendered violence perpetuated by white men since day one."

So, let me get this straight. It's racist to accuse aboriginal men of violence against their intimate partner, but okeydokey to assert white men do it.

If it wasn't for double standards.....

mhaze,

Disagreeing without rancor?
Not on this forum.

As for getting things straight?
Again - Very rare on this forum.

And as for double standards?
Coming from you - that is funny.

Dear mhaze,

You write: "So, let me get this straight. It's racist to accuse aboriginal men of violence against their intimate partner, but okeydokey to assert white men do it."

What a victimhood statement.

No, it is racist when you impugn it is purely a indigenous cultural thing when the evidence illustrated that it plagues remote, isolated, services deprived and socially disadvantaged communities whatever the stripe.

Foxy,
I understand onlt to well.
As I’ve stated before I had the privelege, in my teens, of living with truly tribal Aboriginal Australians. I lived the same life and was considered a man despite my age because as soon became appent I was circumcised so must have been initiated in my own tribe; I was the first white person most of the group had ever seen.
I hav also moved among urbanised Aboriginals and counted Burnham Burnam, Guboo Ted Thomas, his son Rocky, Harry Mumbulla and numerous others among my friends
I used to visit Mum Shirl with that great Irish uillean piper, the late Brendan Ackley when he’d play ror the kids and tell them stories.

All of them talked about the violence and what it was doing to them as a people and all recognised it as a cultural thing.
I also have numerous Aboriginal friends.among the NSW North Coast people and have been privileged to be invited to meetings on the Bora Ground at Evans Head and never have I heard an Aboriginal person blame poverty for the violence,many blame the grog and, incidently, the Bora Ground, afore mentioned, is an alcohol free zone, not by State mandate but by Tribal.

Foxy,
See “Quadrant on line” “The Mistreatment of Women in Aboriginal Society”, 15 Dec. 2021.

Read the historical quotes then come back and tell us that they are all wrong, biased and out to make money writing books.
Warning, some of the quotes are very explicit, read them at your own risk.

services deprived and socially disadvantaged communities whatever the stripe.
SteeleRedux,
??

"No, it is racist when you impugn it is purely a indigenous cultural thing when the evidence illustrated that it plagues remote, isolated, services deprived and socially disadvantaged communities whatever the stripe."

Well said Steele, absolutely true, I have seen this first hand in my wife's community back home. Those with poor education, no money, unemployed, lacking in motivation, no opportunity, no self esteem, drugs and alcohol abuse, regardless of skin colour violence is often the first choice when faced with a confrontational situation, and given their circumstances, that's often. These perpetrators are unpredictable angry people, quick to lash out when confronted, and their victims are those closest, partners, children, relatives even neighbours. mhaze is wrong, many are extremely cultured, and socially well off, they have the same levels of family violence as does the rest of society.

BTW< back in the day, if a woman had a violent husband, she could complain to those men sitting in council, the tribal elders sorts would hear the complaint. These guys could, and at times did, impose penalties such as banishment on men, even had children placed in the care of other family members. Not today.

Foxy,

Yesterday you were pleading for more decorum...."Disagree without rancor. Please."

Barely 3 hours later you were wallowing in the rancour.

It'd be good if your actions more closely met your aspirations.

Final word...it is clear that aboriginal women suffer domestic violence and intimate partner death at epic levels completely out of proportion to the rest of the community. For example aboriginal women suffer DV related hospitalisation at rates 35 times the national level. Despite their efforts here, this level of DV isn't explained by anything other than culture.

The claim is that its all about deprivation. But the data shows little correlation between privilege and DV.

The efforts to correct this disastrous situation have been going on for decades with no effect. To avoid any thoughts of racism (oh the horror!) these efforts concentrate on factors that absolve aboriginals and their culture of any blame or agency in the violence.

But these efforts have utterly failed. Yet the thought of trying something different is a bridge too far for the woke. Especially if that something different addresses that failures of the native culture.

So aboriginal women will continue to be suffer violence, hospitalisation and death but at least the charade that it's got nought to do with the culture will be maintained....and that's more important than the welfare of the women.

mhaze,

Once again - you are being selective in assigning blame.

I've said that it is normal to react when being personally
attacked - hence my request for disagreement without rancor
on this discussion when I was being attacked for simply
citing information from a given source. Yet you saw fit to
criticize me, not him. Why is that?

We all know that there are people on this forum who enjoy
causing problems and they try to push poster's buttons.
These people are total pests and of course it is best to
either ignore them totally or walk away. I'll try to keep
on doing that - or as I've done in the past - resort to
satire, sarcasm, and humour. Which most of the time
doesn't work for obvious reasons - but I'll keep trying.

As for the murder of Indigenous women?

What a sad state of affairs. Our Indigenous problems run deep
in this country. Of course action is needed but this is not
just a "cultural thing." Take a look at the following:

http://crikey.com.au/2022/10/31/indigenous-children-jails-nt/

All this constant virtue-signalling, arguing and ego-exercising will not save a single aboriginal woman from being murdered or maimed. It's been going on for 230 years of British settlement, and thousands of years prior to that. Governments with all their money and resources have failed - yet, bored and lonely people, anonymous nobodies, sitting in front of a laptop in their pyjamas, think that their pointless bullshite is relevant.

It's one thing to have an opinion - a good thing - but constantly arguing with someone else's opinion, with zero effect, is pathetic. A couple of you people really should get a life.

ttbn,

Then how come you're here every day?

Or does only your opinion matter to you?

Anybody looked at the historical Quadrant quotes yet?

Foxy

How come I'm here today? You can't help yourself can you, and you will never get a life.

I am here today, to express my opinion, not to argue with other people's opinions - certainly not your Google rubbish, which I sometimes note in passing.

And, yes: my opinion is the one that counts, besides those that are the same or similar to mine, and that certainly cuts out you, Paul 1405 and SteeleRedux and Aidan. I am OK with all other posters.

I hope that is clear to you, because I won't be bothering with you or the other sad sacks again. You have the same entitlements as anyone else, but I find you and your opinions and comments totally obnoxious, ignorant and childishly querulous.

Too many latte sipping experts who have no idea( many on the government nipple and doing very well.) Try living among and with it for 50+ years and you may get some idea of the problem. Very sad situation and more money will not fix it. Starts with the kids seeing and hearing it all on a regular basis and then taken as a general way of life but we cant have another stolen generation can we. One of our dear friends finished up as a tourism guide during his later years and always told the tourists where to go, how to get there among other things. He was “stolen” and told them he would not be here under normal circumstances and would quite freely answer questions about it. The look on faces as he told his life story was a sight to behold. RIP wonderful man.

"Anybody looked at the historical Quadrant quotes yet?"

Yes. I read the article last year. It's just saying the same things as I've been saying here for years - that aboriginal society was highly misogynist (perhaps the MOST misogynist of all stone age peoples) and that the problems native women face now are the result of the continuation of that culture.

Of course, that article needed to be written, and many more will need to be written in the future, because the aboriginal apologists refuse to accept the truth, believing the truth to be racist.

So women will continue to die.

The Quadrant editor Keith Windschuttle's book The Fabrication of Aboriginal History is the go-to for matters aboriginal. Unlike the younger "historians" and wankademics, Keith uses original documents, and footnotes the lot of them.

ttbn,

I responded to your statement that: "bored and lonely people,
anonymous bodies, sitting in front of a lap top in their
pyjamas think their bullshite is relevant."

I asked, "Then how come you're here every day?" "Does
only your opinion matter to you?" Imagine my surprise
when you replied that your opinion is the one that counts to you
and also those that are the same or similar to yours.
You find any other objectionable and I felt flattered that you
included my opinion amongst those of Steele, Paul, and Aidan,
which you objected to.

None of us on this forum need your validation
to contribute. And if you so vehemently object
to any opinions - as I've told you in the past - you're under
no obligation to read any of them.

You keep saying that you are going to ignore opinions and
people - yet even in my case - you can't help yourself.
You keep stalking me over multiple discussions with your
digs and snide remarks making me suspicious that it's you who'
is after validation. I wish that you would stay away from me.
That would be bliss. But I suspect that it's not going to
happen.

Anyhow - I shall keep on expressing my opinions. As I'm sure
so will you. We've both lived without each other's approvals
for decades. I'm sure we can continue to do so.
__________________________________________________________________

mhaze,

Violence against Aboriginal women in Australia incorporates
a variety of factors from their race, gender, the after-effects
of colonisation to the minority status of Aboriginal
people, the unequal access to societal resources
and the consequent
unequal development of Aboriginal communities to name just
a few.

Addressing the problems demands an appreciation of
the different role and status of Aboriginal people ranging
from a separate or fringe community to an integrated part
of Australian society.

The huge variety of factors complicates the analysis of the issue
of violence against Aboriginal women because it involves an
inter-play of all these factors.

All social and economic indicators
suggest that Aborigines are the most disadvantaged Australians.

Foxy,

I'm not suggesting for a second that its one thing or the other. There are a combination of reasons for the state of the poorest aboriginal segment.

This nation has been trying to fix those problems for at least 50 years now with extraordinary levels of funding, programmes, schemes, legislation and whatnot. The results are equivocal at best.

What has never been tried is addressing the cultural norms that cause so many of these problems. I've explained why that is...the determination to avoid any hint of racism.

Until that juvenile attitude is changed, things won't change.

mhaze,

You're right. Anything is worth a try.
And heaven knows doing nothing is not
or should not, be an option.

Foxy,
You left out culture, have you read the Quadrant article yet?

I'm not interested in reading Quadrant.

Foxy,
Fair enough, but it’s not about the magazine but about the historical quotes.

mhaze, a good post from you above.

"addressing the cultural norms" I don't understand how you do that, other than through education, and positive programs to improve social conditions. Its true 50 years (since Whitlam) of white intervention in remote aboriginal communities has resulted in too many failures, too many lost opportunists, there has not been enough positive outcomes to be able to claim success. One thing is apparent in the majority of incidences of DV, either alcohol is involved, or its confrontation caused by the return of an aggressive partner with massive issues, sometimes it involves both.

BTW, in disadvantaged predominately white populations in big cites, often referred to as the 'Houseo's Estates', you get much the same levels of DV, and high incidence of police intervention. That's not cultural its social

But you don’t get the murder rate; read the Quadrant quotes for an in/sight into really disgusting cultural practices including brutality, mutilation of women, rape and murder.

Regarding Quadrant.

Quadrant is strongly biased. They publish misleading
reports and omit information that may damage their
political agenda.

I prefer reputable media sources that have been rated
high for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and
a clean fact-check record. I stay away from media
sources that utilize strong-loaded words to influence
an audience by appealing to stereotypes.

I don't believe that Quadrant is trust-worthy.

Is Mise

See what I mean. This woman is off the planet, even for a Marxist. She has her Red Books, and anything else is "biased" and "untrustworthy". Mao educated people to think blindly and obediently: she is doing it on her own.

Her mania stands out like dogs nuts in a restricted setting like this. In the real world, she isn't noticed, and probably doesn't spray such rubbish around in person. Nobody would listen to the verbal version of the garbage she posts.

ttbn,

So much for leaving me alone - ay?

You just can't help attacking me.
I must really get to you.

Is Mise,

Check Media bias/Fact-check on the quadrant.

As always - the data and information that I give
can be accredited to reputable media sources.

ttbn,

As for nobody listening to what I post?
Well you obviously do!

Lol!

Is Mise

You will have noted that Quadrant has published Gary Johns's "The Burden of Culture".

I saw Gary interviewed on ADH TV last night. His time in politics was a time when Labor politicians had their heads screwed on the right way, although he did say that they hadn't done a lot with the problem either.

Gary suggested that race be removed from hand outs - no more worries about who was a genuine aborigine and who wasn't - but assistance depending on CIRCUMSTANCES irrespective of race. That $33 billion p.a or whatever it is now would be more efficiently and fairly dispersed, and the 'aboriginal industry' would be out.

Gary also touched on some things that only those of us who read "biased" publications already know. Majority assimilation, high intermarriage rates, education and the work ethic shared by all other Australians. Sharing in wealth and advantages of the mainstream. This has been going on for generations, without the help of the "industry" or any race-based Voice.

Is Mise,

According to the Saturday Paper (rated high for factual
reporting on a clean fact-check record) - we're told that
Quadrant was once seen as a journal of intellectual weight.

Today's Quadrant we're told "has gone off leash to become
a ranting voice of the reactionary right. Very low in
credibility. It had a massive slide into deluded extremism."

Hence my reasons for not being interested in reading it.

Each to their own - of course.

Foxy,
Rancour?
Be that as it may; just read the historical quotes, but I warn you they are graphic.

Is Mise

Probably above her literacy level.

ttbn,

Seriously, give it a rest.

Try listening instead of lashing out.

Another thing that was pleasing about the Johns interview was the debunking of the First Nations nonsense faddishly used to describe nomadic families and clans.

Foxy
Here’s a mild quote:
“The treatment which women experience must be taken into account in considering the causes which lead to the extinction of the native tribes. Amongst them the woman is an absolute slave. She is treated with the greatest cruelty and indignity, has to do all laborious work, and to carry all the burthens.
For the slightest offence or dereliction of duty she is beaten with a waddyu or yam stick and is not infrequently speared.
The records of the Supreme Court in Adelaide furnish numberless instances of blacks being tried for murdering lubras. The woman’s life is of no account if her husband chooses to destroy it., and no one ever attempts to protect or take her part in any circumstances.
In times of scarcity of food she is the last to be fed, and the last to be considered in anyway.
That many die in consequence cannot be a matter of wonder…”
George Taplin, “The Native Tribes of South Australia”, 1879.

“Here’s anothery
“After marriage, the women are compelled to do all the hard work of erecting habitations, collecting fuel and water, carrying burdens, procuring roots and delicacies of various kinds, making baskets for cooking roots and other purposes, preparing food, and attending to the children. The only work men do, in times of peace, is to hunt for opossums and large animals of various kinds, and to make rugs and weapons.”
–James Dawson, Australian Aborigines: The Language and Customs of Several Tribes of Aborigines in the Western District of Victoria, 1881

Is Mise,

Liz Connor's book - "Skin Deep: Settler Impressions of
Aboriginal Women," tells us that "the women were portrayed
as the victims of their brutish Aboriginal husbands who
forced them into lives of drudgery. This enabled settlers
to view colonisation as an exercise in civalry rather being
complicit in an invasion. They were bringing the benefits of
civilisation to an inferior race."

It's an interesting read.

Another interesting read is the book - "The Colonial Fantasy:
Why White Australia Can't Solve Black Problems," by
Sarah Maddison.

The following link is also worth a read:

http://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/business-law/outlaw-culture-aboriginal-women-and-power-resistance

Foxy
You have a superb ability for dredging up utter drivel.

Dear Is Mise,

What in Dawson's account do you find different to the European culture of the time. There was no childcare in those days and women were largely excluded from other jobs outside of raising a family and tending veggie patches while subsistence farming.

Yet here you are all high and mighty.

Why do you think that is?

“The First Ceremonial (Female) in the Boulia District: Among the Pitta Pitta and neighbouring tribes … a young girl when she begins to show signs of puberty … Two or three men manage to get the young woman, when ripe enough, all alone by herself away in the bush, and, throwing her down, one of them forcibly enlarges the vaginal orifice by tearing it downwards with the first three fingers round and round with opposum-string … Other men come forward from all directions, and the struggling victim has to submit in rotation to promiscuous coition with all the ‘bucks’ present: should any sick individual be in camp, he would drink the bloody semen collected from her … Among the Ulaolinya, as well as the tribes around Glenormiston, any ordinary corrobboree [sic] is held during the day-time, and the young woman who has been fixed upon … is decoyed by some old woman to come outside the main body of the camp for the purpose of collecting pappa-seeds, etc. She is stealthily followed by two or three men who suddenly pounce upon her, seize her by the wrists while the other bucks, till now in ambush, come rushing upon the scene: she at once realizes her position, and, despite all shrieks and intreaties, is thrown upon her back on the ground, the old chaperone clearing away to a distance. Four ‘bucks’ hold one to each limb while another presses upon her so as to compel her to draw her legs up: her thighs are now drawn apart and her eyes covered so as to prevent her seeing the individual, probably a very old man, who is beckoned from some hiding place to come and operate directly. Everything is now ready. This he does by slitting up a portion of the perineum with a stone-knife, and sweeping his three fingers round inside the vaginal orifice.” — Walter Edmund Roth, Ethnological Studies Among the North-West-Central Queensland Aborigines, Brisbane, 1897, p. 174; cited in part in Louis Nowra, Bad Dreaming: Aboriginal Men’s Violence Against Women and Children,

Steele,
“ Emma Constance Stone (4 December 1856 – 29 December 1902) was the first woman to practice medicine in Australia. She played an important role in founding the Queen Victoria Hospital in Melbourne.‘

Dear Is Mise,

It was a pretty straightfoward question.

Is Mise,

What do you consider "utter drivel" of what I cited?
And why? And if you think so little of the information
that I try to provide - why do you even bother to engage
with me at all?

Is Mise,

Her Ladyship has asked you a question: "why do you even bother to engage with me at all?"

That's a hard one for anyone. I can't think of any good reason why anyone would want to do it - apart from taking the Micky.

Foxy,,
“ tells us that "the women were portrayed
as the victims of their brutish Aboriginal husbands who
forced them into lives of drudgery. This enabled settlers
to view colonisation as an exercise in civalry rather being
complicit in an invasion. They were bringing the benefits of
civilisation to an inferior race."
That’s drivel.

Why do I engage with you?
To see just how silly your posts will get.
Example: You recently posted that you were deeply offended by me and that you’d not engage with me again, yet here you are..
What’s wrong?
Mind going?
Memory loss?

Good answer, Is Mise.

Foxy should really be called Fishy. She rises to the bait every time. Good sport on a quiet day. What sort of fish? Big Mouth Bass comes to mind.

Is Mise,

What you brush aside as "drivel," is not something that
I made up. The quote comes from Professor Sarah Maddison,
Director of the Australian Centre at the University of
Melbourne who is the leading expert on Indigenous-Settler
Relations in Australia and the world. You can read her profile
here:

http://findanexpert.unimelb.edu.au/profile/693063-sarah-maddison

She's written many books on the issues involved, including the
one I cited - "The Colonial Fantasy: Why White Australia
Can't Solve Black Problems." I gave the quote to balance things
out to what you were presenting. Which in a discussion is
usually acceptable.

You've called me derogatory names, insulted me, and yet even
though I have tried to ignore you - you keep asking me questions
and expect a reply - when I finally do reply - you again insult
me. I think that says more about you than it does about me.
In any case - I shall try to cease to amuse you. You've found
a delightful friend in ttbn. You're well-matched. May you both
continue to enjoy inter-acting with each other. May your days
together be as pleasant as you both are. Yay!

Hi Foxy,

Have ordered Sarah Maddison's ; 'The colonial fantasy : why white Australia can't solve black problems'

Should be a good read. As I said before Brisbane Library is one of the best community libraries in Australia, got so much.

Old Issy should tell us about his exploits in Korea where thousands of innocent women were raped and murdered 1950/53.

Still biting.

Dear Paul,

Well done!

I'm so glad to hear that Brisbane has such an excellent
library service. It will be great to hear what you think
of Prof. Maddison's book.

___________________________________________________________________

ttbn,

Thank you for suggesting that I change my moniker from Foxy to
Fishy.

What a co-incidence! One of my favourite children's picture
books is - "The Rainbow Fish."

As Wikipedia will tell you:

"It's drawn and written by Swiss author and illustrator
Marcus Pfister and translated into English by J. Alison James.
The book is best known for its message about generosity,
sharing, and friendship and for the distinctive shiny foil scales
of the Rainbow Fish."

It was a very popular book during my Storytime Sessions for
the Tiny Tots at our Regional Municipal Librairies.
My grand-children loved it as well.

Herr Goebbels,
Reference?
Which rifle do you miss the most, the single shot Lithgow or the Model 12 ?

ttbn,

I think it's only fair seeing as you suggested a
change to my moniker on this forum from Foxy to Fishy,
that I return the favour.

My suggestion for changing your moniker is - from TTBN
to TTFN.

TTFN - is an initialism for a colloquial valediction,
"ta ta for now." based on "ta ta" an informal "goodbye."

We're told that that expression came to prominence in the UK
during the Second World War.

There's more at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TTFN

I think it would suit you to a T.

Dear Is Mise,

Steadfastly refusing to answer a simple question? Really bloody typical of your lot.

Anyway I have had a look at the lewd Quadrant quote you have reproduced with great glee.

It is from the work of Walter Edmund Roth who did have his sexual hangups and was drummed out of the service for taking pictures of a young aboriginal couple engaging in various sexual positions. He even called the section you quote from “Ethno-pornography” obviously aware of those like yourself who are titillated by such.

The way he relates instances of behaviour he could not have possibly witnessed is a little telling. What is also telling is how you are prepared to swallow all of it while deriding early settler accounts related by Pascoe.

Be that as it may it seems Aboriginal tribes in the area in question engaged in some pretty horrific genital mutilation of both sexes including the practice of introcision. From his work:

“In the Upper Seorgina District, among the Yaroinga, the time at which the introcision is performed on the urgoota, an individual after his first initiation, is about when the beard becomes fairly apparent, «.e.,when he is ready to become a full-grown man or ur-twa, and fit to live along with his gin. The method of holding the man down during the operation is somewhat different to that in vogue among the Pitta-Pitta aboriginals. Here, independently of any corrobboree, during the early morning or middle day his mother's and his own brother will suddenly stand on either side of the unsuspecting individual and hold his arms and wrists, while some other specially strong fellow catches him from behind under the armpits. He is now rushed along to where the main body of the men happens to be, and signs of rejoicing are on all sides expressed. Of course no women are allowed to be present."

Cont..

Cont..

“Two old men lie down side by side, but not too close, with their bellies resting along the lengths of two large shields placed face upwards on the ground ; across their loins, and thus connecting them, is placed another shield, also face up, so as to form a kind of seat upon which the young man to be operated upon is made to sit (Fig. 430). Here he is held by the swarm of men around, some at his thighs and legs to keep them apart, others at his trunk and arms, and one in particular holding his head well back and plugging his fingers in his ears, so as to prevent him either seeing or hearing what IS about to follow. The operation consists of two vertical cuts into the urethra extending from the external orifice with a third independently transverse one below, the resulting flap of skin being allowed to take its own time apparently in subsequently rotting off down to the transverse cut (Fig. 431). The blood from the wound, which is dressed with iguana fat, is collected into a koolamon, whence at night, remote from the sufferer, a few drops or clots are given to each of the women gathered round, the idea being that by this means the wound will heal all the quicker, and the women will themselves benefit by so doing.”

Roth rightly compared practices like these this to other “sects” around the world. He in no way claimed or inferred as you are attempting to do that it was a widespread practice throughout all the Aboriginal nations.

Of course Roth also makes the point that “It must be borne in mind that the forcible laceration and enlargement of the vaginal orifice, i.e., female-introcision (sects. 305-309), only takes place in those districts where male-introcision is practised.”

Cont..

Cont..

As to the idea propagated by yourself that the scars on the heads of aboriginal women were solely inflicted by men:

“In the Boulia District, however, women fight among themselves on the same general principles as the men, using the smaller vai'ieties of boomerang rarely, and fighting-poles generally: never with any other implements or weapons. The fighting-pole (sect. 255) is really a sort of thick heavy pole, often as much as 4 feet long on an average, and very cumber- some to wield, even when used in the orthodox manner by being held in the hands at one extremity and swung vertically over the head from behind forwards. The encounter progresses somewhat after this fashion (I"ig. 340) : One of the combatants with her hands between her knees, supposing that only one stick is available, ducks her head slightly—almost in the position of a schoolboy playing leap-frog—and waits for her adversary's blow, which she receives on the top of the head. The attitudes are now reversed, and the one just attacked is now the attacking party. Blow for blow is thus alternated until one of them gives in, which is generally the case after three or four hits. Great animal pluck is sometimes displayed, and though one of them may fall temporarily stunned, she will soon recover herself as ready as not to continue the fight ; blood also may often be drawn.”

In a separate ceremony:

“...while this performance is going on, each woman can exercise her right of punishing any man who may have ill-treated, abused, or " hammered" her, and for whom she may have waited months or perhaps years to chastise : for, as each pair appear round the corner at the entrance exposed to her view, the woman and any of her female friends may take a fighting-pole and belabour the particular culprit to their hearts' content, the delinquent not being allowed to retaliate in any way whatsoever...”

Finally to gladden your little heart...

“I have no evidence as to any practice of masturbation or sodomy anywhere among the North-West-Central Queensland aboriginals."

Steele,
Good to see that you have finally realized that the violence is cultural, however your psychological observations are not yet up to 101 graduation standards, keep trying.

Issy,

The estimate for non-combatants killed during the Korean War is 1.2 million, many were women and children. That is the reference you asked for.

"AUSTRALIAN and British soldiers fighting in the Korean War looted and burnt villages, shot dead wounded enemy soldiers, and killed Korean civilians and prisoners of war in cold blood, according to new accounts by veterans of the conflict. 17 June 2011"

Goebbels,
That’s not a reference, go back to school.
Must have been the iconic single shot .22 Lithgow, got one myself for old times sake.

Dear Is Mise,

Then the brutal and violent floggings of transgressors and convicts at Botany Bay which so appalled the Aborigines of the area were just as much a representation of English culture.

Issy,

What are you disputing, the estimate of non-combatants killed, is the 1.2 million an incorrect number? First hand accounts of murders by Australian and British solderers during the Korean War was reported in 'The Australian' newspaper in 2011. I take it, its your opinion those claims are erroneous. Given there is ample evidences of war crimes being committed by all sides in all wars, the balance of probability would favour the claims to be factual. Agree?

Steele,
But they didn’t have such an appallingly high murder rate nor do their descendents.

Goebbeols,
Still just opinions, when are you going to give a reference?

Well it seems the aboriginal apologists have gone from trying to defend pre-1788 Australia as an utopian paradise for women to just saying..."hey look over there".

I fully agree that 19th century western society wasn't ideal and was tough on women (and men).

When CURRENT society tries to address DV in its mainstream community, it doesn't have the slightest compunction about recalling past attitudes to women to 'explain' current attitudes and then calling for a change to those attitudes.

But when we see vastly greater CURRENT violence in the aboriginal community, the last thing the apologist community wants to do is call attention to past cultural attitudes as a means to address CURRENT cultural attitudes.

For these people, aboriginal women being hospitalised at rates 35 times greater than the rest of society is something those women will just have to accept if the alternative is pointing out that stone age aboriginal society wasn't utopia for their womenfolk.

Dear mhaze,

Your fixation on this being a cultural issue needing addressing by Aborigines themselves is the problem.

No one is denying a serious problem exists. Yet you are determined not to look at contributing factors which don't fit your agenda.

Substance abuse is a feature of low-socioeconomic communities and a high factor in domestic violence incidents.

Ability/desire to use police to intervene is crucial in protecting families. Where trust of police and courts is low and the risk of losing children to the system is disproportionately high then domestic violence is allowed to flourish.

Much of this is laid out in the AHRC report "Ending Family Violence and Abuse in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Families".

You might find this instructive too.

"This factor is often overlooked by current policies and other intervention strategies aimed at addressing violence against women which are primarily guided and directed by a liberal feminist framework. The major criticism of western feminist based intervention strategies for dealing with violence against Indigenous women is that they have evolved from the very structures that served to subordinate and oppress Indigenous peoples. Moreover they embody white middle class women’s experiences. Indigenous women, however:

do not have a purely gendered experience of violence that renders them powerless. They, along with their men, experienced and continue to experience, the racist violence of the State. Aboriginal women do not share a common experience of sexism and patriarchal oppression, which binds them with non-Aboriginal women in a unified struggle...

The notion of patriarchy is foreign to traditional Aboriginal communities, which were relatively separate but equal in terms of male/female roles. While Aboriginal societies were gendered, women were not victims of men’s power, but assertively affirmed their place and role in the community. According to Berndt & Berndt (1964) this provided both independence yet an essential interdependence between gender groups."

mhaze,

According to Peter O'Brien writing for the Spectator:

There are three broad groups of Indigenous people, each
quite different.

There is the most populous - the urban Aboriginals who live
in large cities and towns. In the main they are virtually
indistinguishable from anyone else. They're educated and
employed. They don't live in enclaves, instead occupying
the same spaces as most Australians and other residents.

We have the groups that live in smaller towns. They socialize
among themselves. They do suffer a degree of disadvantage
and sometimes racist antipathy. They live in proper houses,
their kids go to school and they are generally healthy.
Much of their disadvantage is attributed to their low
socio-economic status not race.

It's the remote and or tribal Aboriginals living in isolated
communities in out back towns where tribalism is a major
inhibitor of progress and the "Gap" is more pronounced.
They live in communities with high level family connections
and a low standard of education. In many of these communities
disease, alcoholism and both domestic and sexual abuse are rife.

mhaze,

As stated earlier - violence against Aboriginal women in
Australia incorporates an array of factors - and the
great variety of factors complicates the analysis of
the issues because it involves an inter-play
of these factors. However all societal and economics
indicators suggest that Aborigines are the most
disadvantaged Australians.

mhaze,

Nobody is suggesting that nothing be done or that the
problems be ignored.

Again, let me point out that I am not saying that the solution is solely addressing the cultural aspects of the problem. All the other issues have their place in the solution.

But we, the mainstream community, have been trying to fix these problems within the remote non-urbanised aboriginal community for 50 years now and are no closer to doing so than when we started. Every time a "Closing the Gap" report is issued it says things haven't improved and the aboriginal apologist community shriek that more of the same must be done.

The one thing that hasn't been tried is addressing the elephant in the room. Until that is addressed, nothing will improve.

Foxy

“It's the remote and or tribal Aboriginals living in isolated
communities in out back towns where tribalism is a major
inhibitor of progress and the "Gap" is more pronounced.
They live in communities with high level family connections
and a low standard of education. In many of these communities
disease, alcoholism and both domestic and sexual abuse are rife.”

Now why is that?
And as other groups suffer from poverty etc but don’t murder their women at such a rate then something must be different in Aboriginal society; I wonder what it could be?

That question has been answered by me on page 24.

Issy,

Foxy has clearly answered your question as to the causes of DV in some remote Aboriginal communities....SOCIAL DISADVANTAGE, brought on by poor education, lack of employment, people with low self esteem. These factors leads to poverty, alcoholism, drug addiction, violent behaviour, coupled with degenerative housing, health issues etc. You name it a whole powder keg of negativity. Given the conditions what do you expect?

Less murders, just like other cultures in the same conditions.

So, here we have a problem that is:
1) caused mainly by aboriginals (this violence the ABC was referring to is mostly being perpetrated by aboriginal men),
2) affects mainly aboriginals (it's aboriginals women being killed and aboriginal families and communities suffering as a result),
3) and happens mainly in communities with high aboriginal populations.

Since this is mainly an aboriginal problem in THEIR communities, let them fix it with THEIR own resources. After all, we're constantly being told that aboriginals must have the right and freedom to govern themselves. Well, here's an opportunity for the aboriginal leadership to shine and take action. Now's their chance to demonstrate to us that they are capable of managing their own communities' affairs.

Why should it be the responsibility of others (eg. tax payers who don't live in remote communities) to fix?

Foxy,
As usual you didn’t answer the question, given that other communities and cultures suffer the same socio-economic problems, why is the murder rate of Aboriginal women so high?
Indeed the incidence of violence toward Aboriginal women is higher than in other groups.
But the murder rate is the question and no one has answered it yet apart from those who see it as cultural as well as the other factors.

The question has been answered by me on page 24!

Hi Issy,

Why do so many people with guns murder other people, I think its a cultural thing among the 'Gun Nut' community.

There you are, Foxy answered your question. Foxy please stop engaging with Issy on "Answer My Question!", he's only trying to get you to "fire" back. BTW I picked up that book from the library today.

Dear Paul,

No worries.

Let me know what you think of the book.

Goebbels,
Still on with the guns.
Why the fixation?
Was it losing the Model 12 Lithgow rifle?
You’ll be pleased to hear, no doubt, that the magazines are now worth more than the rifles.

Hi Issy,

What's your favourite magazine "Shooters and Hooters"? You never did say how many nut jobs are down at your local shooting gallery.

Hi Foxy,

Went to see the movie 'Whina' (pronounced Fina), another distant relative of the wife's, she has so many. Great account of the woman Whina Cooper who in 1975 at almost 80 years of age, led a peaceful march of Maori people, about 4,000, from Te Hapua (up north) to Wellington (down south), a distance of 1,100 Km to demand Maori land rights. Over the years she not only had to fight the pakeha racists government, that had systematically stolen Maori land for more than 100 years (about 96% of their land), she had to fight against entrenched attitudes of her own people, and the bigotry of the Catholic Church (she was a Catholic). A very good movie.

Dear Paul,

Thank you for telling me about the film - "Whina."
It is screening at a theatre near us and we shall
try to see it during the week. It has had excellent
reviews.

I see Foxy and Steele evaluating aboriginal culture on Western society standards, blaming social disadvantage as the causes of domestic violence among aboriginal communities. They fail to see they lived for 60,000 years without our Western concept of disadvantage. The women gathered seeds, fruit, and roots for food each day and the men hunted and were killing animals and making fires. The male aboriginal culture was based on violence and in remote communities where today they live, males still feel they have superior rights over women.

I lived in 1960 among an aboriginal shanty town in the NT for several months and violence was commonplace. Their women were being sold as sex slaves for alcohol and cigarettes.

The SBS series, "Australian Wars" is a fiction based on the authors understanding of historical events. It has all the license of theatre to recreate the story as intended by the author. It is a pity it is being shown at this time as it does not represent current Australia when we are endeavoring to unite our society rather than divide it by cultural wars.

When the WA Government offered the remote aboriginal villages to move to towns where services were available, they did not accept it and wanted to stay on their tribal lands. It was too costly to provide services to remote villages. We cannot blame the Government if they wanted to live in their tribal lands. The only way would be to remove newborn children, so they have no attachment to the tribe. This has been tried with half caste children, "Sorry" was the consequence.

Well it’s been explained that socio-economics plays a role in domestic violence but what is the factor that makes for a very high murder rate of Aboriginal women; were there not some other factor surely we could expect such a murder rate in other deprived communities?

"were there not some other factor surely we could expect such a murder rate"....Issy maybe it was you white fellas with guns. Lots of Aboriginal women have been shot dead by European invaders since the days of Captain Cook. Agree?

Looks like the cancellation of your licence really hurt.