There is a big hue and cry regarding the use of the Hijab by Muslim girls in schools in India. Arguments are put forth for and against the use of the Hijab.
People talk about the Constitutional guarantee, Quran, religious practice and freedom etc. But the main facts to be discussed are:
1. Nutritional aspect of this practice
2. Human rights violation.
The constitutional classes were enacted long ago considering the then-existing scenario. Also, the constitution framers had absolute faith in the integrity of the people in respecting the provisions. But they have become a matter for irrational arguments by the vested interests.
The constitution, if need be, can be changed to suit the present social situation and it need not be considered as rigid laws beyond modification. If laws are misused then we have to find out some remedial action to set right the problem. Citing the constitution for each and everything is against the very spirit of the constitution. Constitution expects some amount of honesty from society in its interpretation.
Application of common sense and ethics is required in the interpretation of laws. Mathematically minded people do not understand sociology. But it is seen that only people with mathematical and statistical acumen occupy positions of power. There is no wonder the issues get twisted from the sociological truth.
Hijab can affect the nutritional aspect of women. Lack of exposure to sunlight can seriously affect the synthesis of Vit. D. which predisposes them to various health consequences.
Ordering women to wear a kind of dress, probably against their wish, is certainly a human rights violation. A large-scale survey among women on whether they like to wear hijab or not is a must before discussing the problem.
Enlightening the community on scientific and ethical lines is absolutely essential. Law is not supreme. Only justice is supreme. It is seen that our lawmakers often talk of law of the land rather than justice. Only those who violate justice take the weapon of law for their defense. A great tragedy indeed!

Ezhil,
Agree !

If you dig a little deeper you will find that this controversy is really coming from a group of Hindu supremacist groups in the northern states of Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh where a group of Mulslim girls were locked out of their school for wearing headscarves with at least one attacked by a mob.

Both Hindu and Muslim fundamentalism have found fertile ground in the coastal districts of Karnataka, where Muslims form 15 percent of the population.

Locally, fundamentalist (Hindutva) groups began attacking women having a drink in a pub and later started to accost and attack even friends who were of different faiths. Meanwhile Hindu students have started wearing saffron scarves as another form of protest against hijabs.

The region has seen a rise in activities of those Hindutva groups and the targeting of the state’s religious minorities, mainly Muslims and Christians.

The Karnataka state assembly passed a law that effectively bans religious conversions, with the BJP government alleging that Christian missionary groups were conducting “forceful conversions” of Hindus.

It's not different from the action of hostile theocracies such as Afghanistan who enforce strict dress codes and India is politically heading in the same direction.

The nutritional argument is also nonsense in a country where headscarves and shawls are commonly worn.

Whoever dictates (whether Hindus or Islamists)unscientific and irrational dress codes as a sign of the religion they belong to is nonsense. It leads to immediate alienation from one another. Instead, people should follow the welfare dictates or tenets of their religion to distinguish themselves and need not do it by peculiar dresses.

The nutritional aspect discussed is real and the reader may consult any nutrition literature.

Religious fundamentalism/intolerance is dangerous at any time, and all major religions are intolerant, or have adherents who are so inclined. Often the culture of religion has been used to mask deeper political and economic issues within a society. The persecution of Jews throughout the ages has generally been portrayed as solely a religious issue, with the justified punishment of those not worthy in the eyes of God; "the crucifiers of Christ" argument, the truth is always somewhat more complex that simply religious dogma.

Religious squabbles in India between two groups of fundamentalists with centuries of enmity. Now, there's a surprise! Fortunately it is sweet Fanny Adams to do with us.

We already have Albooverseas trying to distract us from his ballsups with things that have no interest whatsoever to Australian voters; nobody cares about what goes on in India.

As well as being persecuted, the Jewish religion also has fundamentalists in its ranks and Christians and Muslims certainly don't have a monopoly in that area.

I remember when some Jewish Orthodox fundamentalists on a train were abusing girls for reading books or dressing "immodestly" but as well as some who would line up at school gates scream at girls and literally throw their own crap at some of them.

If your religion finds you squatting over a bucket in order to terrorise pre-teens then perhaps you should be examining your own life-choices.

ttbn,
Let us not lower ourselves to just voters. But elevate to civilised human beings! Australians like you should develop a broader mindset. Please understand that the welfare and even survival of people of one country depend on other countries' contributions. Australians cannot shut their eyes to what happens in other parts of the world. World is described as a global village!

Rache,

"I remember when some Jewish Orthodox fundamentalists on a train were abusing girls for reading books or dressing "immodestly" but as well as some who would line up at school gates scream at girls and literally throw their own crap at some of them."

I'm sorry but I'm sure that you are making this up.

"Ordering women to wear a kind of dress, probably against their wish, is certainly a human rights violation."

Yeah probably.

Personally I think that if you don't like the hijab, then don't wear it, it's certainly never was a part of Australian culture to force others to wear one.
We did have a law once that prevented people swimming at the beach, or women showing much skin, that might have been a breach of human rights and potentially unhealthy too.
In regards to religion, I think your religion is a matter for an individual and their god and no-one else.
Above the level of religion, I believe everybody has a right to live however they choose so long as it doesn't harm others.
No one has a right to force their religious beliefs on others especially kids.
Forcing religious beliefs on children should be banned.
There should be an agreed age where kids should be free from this kind of conditioning until they are old enough to choose for themselves.
Women shouldn't be forced to dress a certain way because men might lust after them and have feelings of wanting to have sex with them.
That's essentially making women suffer for men's problems.

Hi AC,

I have to agree, religion for the religious, and everyone else is free to pursue whatever turns them on, providing there're not harming others.

Just on this; "I think that if you don't like the hijab, then don't wear it," True, but for oppressed women in certain countries, not wearing the hijab might get one "stoned to death", that tends to put the kibosh on free choice. The vast majority of women wearing such garb have been conditioned from a young age to do so, and they know nothing else.

AC

Everybody (boys, girls, men and women) should dress decently. Public decency demands that. What you have said as men's problems is actually a problem of society. Men and women coexist. The dress was invented to cover one's physical body and protect it from nature's vagaries and other harms. Can we ask men and women to shut their eyes when the opposite sex is provocatively dressed?
Wearing clothes decently, at least in public places, is a requisite of a civilised society. I feel that modern-day dress culture has been greatly influenced by cinema scenes deliberately shown, to attract the youth, with huge money collections in mind. Of course, the hijab does not fall into this category.

Paul
Your observation is perfect

not wearing the hijab might get one "stoned to death",
Paul1405,
Sadly yes & silly me had been made to believe that that's the kind of suppression & human persecution that the UN was created for at the cost of literally many, many billions of Dollars !

The burqa is a sign of oppression.

People are free to wear the yellow star of David, but no sane person would.

Hey Ezhill,

What's decent?

My parent's moved up to QLD from Victoria when I was 3.
The closest town 5 minutes up the road was Tweed Heads / Coolangatta.
By the time I was 6 or 7 in 1980, I was in nippers at Tweed Heads Surf Life Saving Club.
What standards of dress insofar as covering up would you expect me to have?
Do you think I didn't see women wearing skimpy clothes (next to nothing) at the beach at my local town 5 minutes up the road in the 80's?
In the other direction, down at Fingal, there was the 'nudie beach' not that my parents took me to that particular beach because I was still young, but it was no secret even to me when I was young that it was a nude beach.
We did go to Fingal now and then, just not the 'nudie beach'.
80's was a different time, it was no problem for women to get their boobs out, and blokes were strutting up and down the beach with 70's mustaches and dick-togs and driving around in the old 'sin bin' HZ Sandman panel vans.
Maybe if you grew up in a different time and place to me, things may have been different for you.
- But hey I'm an Aussie, that's how I grew up, and that was over 40 years ago now.

I remember there was at least 1 local rapist getting around as it was in the local paper and women were concerned and spoke about it with each other in passing.
- The local resident sex-pest.

Do you think women deserved to be raped in this kind of environment because 1 or 2 deviates couldn't control themselves?

For me, I don't really care how skimpy people dress, it was all normal, apart from people actually getting around COMPLETELY NUDE, which was a no-no unless you went to the 'nudie beach'.

There was always the good old regular streaker on the TV footy or cricket anyway.
We can't forget them, and their place in Australian culture and history...

[Cont.]
- And to add to that we also can't forget how things were in those times.

All the ad's on the telly, and crude and creative car stickers on peoples cars.

"Hey Love,
If you need a plumber call Des, He'll unblock your drains."

"Ladies if you need a good lubrication, head on over to Bill Mechanics"

"If you after some WOOD, Mike's Timbers Has You Covered"

"Need some yardwork? Dave will look after your BUSH. All work Guaranteed"

They were way more cruder and creative than the examples I've given here, but you get the idea.

Old XC falcons driving around with speakers on the roof, advertising this or that, Friday night at Twin-Towns or the Playroom...

That's how things were in those times.
- Back when we called ourselves 'The Lucky Country'
Perhaps we've gone significantly backwards since those days,
- Trying to please the sensibilities of foreigners and their conservative religions and create a generic bland culture where everyone's complaining about everything like the 'bloody poms'.

I want the old Australia back.
- This one sucks.

[Cont.]
If I allow myself a little nostalgia and think about those days that were, the years of my youth.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=9900&page=0#337421
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=9900&page=0#337422

Sure, we've got fancy computers, iphones, ipad's and electric cars.
- But we really have gone down the drain as a nation since our heyday,

This bland, fake, manufactured, imported, generic country we now are.
"socially responsible" "progressive".
Colonised by UN Sustainability Goals and foreign treaties and all the other feelgood 'PC' controlling crap.
- We're not the 'Lucky Country' anymore, it's all lies, it's all garbage.
We haven't really progressed at all

For me, I don't really care how skimpy people dress
Armchair Critic,
Well, I get pretty peed-of when I see those obese lilly-white tourists in our supermarket sweating over the fruit & vegies whilst wearing next to nothing. Or those filthy haired brushing past me.
No mate, dress codes need to be applied wherever people & food are in close proximity !

As far as the face covering of some Muslim sections go, that practice has no place here !

I recall not long ago, a couple of elderly ladies in the shopping centre letting forth with some disparaging comments about a young well pregnant young woman and the way she was dressed. The fact she was showing her rather inflated stomach, seemed to draw angst about the 'modern generation' from the old ladies. Lucky the old dears were not at the beach on a hot summers day, they they would really be shocked, or in a night club on a Saturday night...ahhhhhhhhhh!

After all is said and done,

If you're frightened of men in speedos or women in bikini's then you're probably in the wrong country.

Our nation is a LAND OF HOT SUMMERS AND BEACHES

Love it or leave it, the choice is yours.

With all the freedom of choice of dress, I can't see any normal woman wanting to dress like a post box.

Our nation is a LAND OF HOT SUMMERS AND BEACHES
Armchair Critic,
Does that in your opinion mean that sweat-dripping slobs & tattooed fleabags should be allowed to roam free where food is sold ?

Hey Indyvidual,
No one gets a free pass to sweat all over another persons groceries.
- If your heading into the Coolangatta beer garden, right on the beach for a beer and a counter lunch and eating outside beach clothing may be acceptable, but if you're actually going into the pub to eat you got to chuck a shirt and thongs on.

Heading into Woolies in a beach town might be a grey area,
Woolies probably have their own dress codes.
- But you still don't have a right to sweat all over other peoples food.

Armchair Critic,
You'd be appalled at witnessing many "Australian tourists' " behaviour here in the North !
Bali & Thailand fare even worse from what I have seen on the subject on TV.
Uncultured is one way I describe it ! A National Service scheme would put a stop to such embarrassing representatives of this Nation !
As far as those facial fly screens for females go just a simple 'NO' will do.

Indy,

You are confusing the hijab with the burka, Pauline Hanson wears a burka. Pauline Hanson in a bikini certainly would terrorise a lot of people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaU40PznA9s

I want to ban that "person" in a funny clowns suit flogging burgers to children! I want to ban some dead old colonel flogging unhealthy dead old chook! Ban em' ALL!

p/s I have learned Ronald is sometimes a tranny, I am shattered!

Pauline Hanson in a bikini certainly would terrorise a lot of people.
Paul1405,
Pauline Hanson happened to have an exceptionally good figure.
As for "confusing the hijab with the burka" so what ? I recall seeing Muslim women wearing Hijab & clothing so tight that they revealed more than had they been undressed. Most of them were very classy & stylish in their appearance. Way, way more so than how the sheilahs display their tattooed slabs of cellulite here !
As for the Burka well, it goes without saying that any sane bloke would rather be without a female than be with one that has to be hidden like that.
The Burka is a security issue !

Shadow Minister -

https://skepchick.org/2011/10/ultra-orthodox-men/

You're welcome.

Indy,

Do you also consider young fellas in hoodie's a security risk, or that bloke at the hamburger joint in a clowns suit a security risk. So you're not concerned about women in hijab's at all, but rather those wearing a burka, a different garment. Having spent many years in Sydney and being in areas of high Muslim populations, few women did I observe wearing a burka, lots wearing a hijab. Without a "ban the burka" edict in force there has been no problem as far as I am aware, so what are your security concerns? Maybe we should consider old blokes in priestly attire a security risk to young children, there's certainly enough evidence of that.

p/s I'll leave Pauline Hanson to you, she's your kinda gal.

Maybe we should consider old blokes in priestly attire a security risk to young children, there's certainly enough evidence of that.
Paul1405,
These cloaks, hoods etc hide physical aspects which are definitely security-risk. Even more dangerous are those unveiled outfits such as Mortar Boards that hide indoctrinated stupidity & some of the attire worn by Greens also hide a great degree of stupidity but fortunately, the wearers expose those traits by opening their mouths !

As well as the apparently stalled Hanson campaign against Muslim attire (including the stunt of wearing a burqa into Parliament that she copied directly from the USA), when will she resurrect the terrifying Halal labelling matter to save us all?

As for vitamin D deficiencies, people in cold climates can have the same "problem". All citizens in the UK have low levels for at least 30% of the year.

I wear hoodies a lot, but I've never robbed the servo.

Funnily enough I found a sawn-off shotgun in the under-bunk area of a caravan rented at a caravan park once, and my stupid mate went off holding up servos with another bloke.
That was about 30 years ago though, and the cops got them.
- Been years since I even thought about it honestly.

Sometimes I've been stubborn and challenged the servo staff over their hoodie-nazi-attitude, especially when the policy first came in.
Mostly I just go along with it now to keep the peace, in the daytime it annoys me being told to take it off and I get tempted to make an issue of it, but at night-time I recognise it might make them uneasy, so pull the hoodie down voluntarily.
- It can restrict your peripheral vision when driving anyway.

But I don't like them telling me how I should and shouldn't dress.
"Do you ask Muslims to take their Burka's off?" I've asked once or twice, if they've been rude about it.

I think one time I'd already put fuel in, they told me to take it off when I went to enter and pay, so I was waving the $40 around at the door saying you come and get it then, if I'm not allowed in.

- "I'll just leave it for you out here, if I'm not allowed in."

Once or twice if I recall they've come over the speaker and said "We're not turning the pump on till you take your hoodie off."

It's been years since any of that happened though, I must just take it off without thinking now, or else they don't make an issue of it.

Hi AC,

I once went to a seedy club in Kings Cross, by mistake of course I thought it was the YMCA. There was this woman on the stage, I think she was Muslim, because all the fellas in the audience were yelling; "TAKE IT OFF!", me thinks they must have been Hanson supporters.

Since moving to Brisbane, I have been very concerned about the attire worn by the Eskimo population, big fur coats, fur boots etc, even the children are decked out that way. It worries me no end to think these dangerous people are going into servos. Just the other day I was in a petrol station, went in to pay, and inside was six woman in burka's, a clown, a couple of gang members in hoodies and a family of Eskimo, naturally I had removed every stitch of clothing myself before entering, to show I was normal and mean no harm. Unfortunately Ramesh behind the counter was so overwhelmed by the sight of me, that his turban fell off his head, leaving him stark naked as well.

On this line of moslem dress there was an item on the BBC the other
night about Cairo that in many entertainment places restaurants etc
the Hijab is banned !
They showed a map of the city and there were dozens of places that
have the Hijab ban.
Things are a-changing !

Hi Paul1405,
I go to the Vicky Point YMCA once a week.
My girlfriends 7yo does the gymnastics.
Of all the mums and girls there, I've not seen any wearing hijabs or burkas.
- Maybe gymnastics is haram for Muslims...

Hi AC,

Gymnastics in a burka! A new Olympic sport. What about that poor Saudi Arabian girl at the Comm Games, poor thing, doing the 100m dog paddle in a burka. She finished second by a touch, natural to the Aussie girl, "Super Fish", in new Commonwealth record time of 4 hours and 23 minutes. Don't know who finished third, they haven't come up from the bottom of the pool yet, probably a Pom! BTW that was Australia's 10,000th gold medal at the games! What about that! Ethiopia 2026 here we come.

There need not be any particular dress code for any religion. More so when it affects health!
People should distinguish themselves as Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, etc by following the respective religious tenets faithfully and not by mere dressing styles. These physical dress codes create a deep chasm between different religious denominations and cause unwanted severe consequences.

As somebody has put it, it is known, Hijab is not mandatory in many Muslim countries. What about the cinema Muslim heroines? In India, there are famous Muslim actresses (Zeenat Aman, Mumtaj, Shabna Azmi, Waheeda Rehman) who do not wear Hijab while acting. Why Islamic fundamentalists do not bother about this so-called violation?
Let us go out in the streets as human beings and not as Christians, Muslims etc with a particular dress code. Humanism should prevail over fanaticism of religion

Indigenous believe in the rainbow serpent, and they were neither gay nor wore clothes, wonder where they fit into this religious scale?

Do gays accuse them of cultural appropriation, or is it the other way around?
Do other religions accuse them and their women of immodesty?
Do Jews complain they stole their reverence of serpents?
Its all so confusing...

AC,
You are getting confused for nothing. when the issue is quite clear where is the need for confusion? Extraneous and nonserious issues need not be brought into this very serious discussion

The discussion is about the use of the Hijab by Muslim girls in schools in India.
What precisely do any of us in Australia know about this?
And why does it even matter what we think or say?
It's up to the Indians to decide what's best for India and make pragmatic choices for themselves regarding changes they want in their society.

There's 200 million Muslims in India, but 80% of the country are Hindu, maybe the Indian Muslims should move to Pakistan, though the Pakistani economy's tanked and have food shortages and many will die of starvation, as well as the huge flood affecting a third of the country right now.
Maybe more Muslims will instead be moving to India.

What sort of sensible informed response do you expect from Aussies, we're neither a Hindu nation or a Muslim nation.
Most Indian Muslims are Sunni, maybe you should've asked your question in a Saudi Arabian forum, how should we know?
What answer did you want?

How are we supposed to know what goes on in the backwoods suburbs of India?
People live on the train tracks and clean out toilet pits by hand.
We don't live like that, how are we supposed to relate to the scale of their population and demographics or problems, or even their caste system to make informed decisions regarding the challenges and priorities of Indian society?

They're probably more likely to die from being hit by a train or catching a disease from poor sanitation than die from a lack of Vitamin D for wearing scarves.

Maybe you wish to place a global ban on hats, hoodies and skivvies too? I'm not even Muslim.
Maybe you can convince these girls not to wear the hijab and then the other strict Muslims will attack the liberal Muslims.
How do I know how they will react to change, or if they're even open to it.

I'm an Australian mate, hot summers, a few beers, beaches and girls in bikinis.

"we're neither a Hindu nation nor a Muslim nation." A Highly escapist argument. Let us all feel that we are human beings first and other identities next.
You have specialised in devious ways of argument. You never respond to arguments put forth but come out with new and irrelevant issues. I think that we must put a full stop to this kind of useless discussion.

Australia is a secular nation, with no official state religion, where people are free to practice any religion of their choosing, or none at all, providing that adherence to their faith doesn't impinge on the freedoms of others.

Mr. Paul,
I feel Australia belongs to people lke you. Let some Australians not lower the status of Australia by their perverted attitudes and opinions. A country becomes great not by its religious or linguistic identity but by the kind of people it has! Basking under the canopy of religion, language etc is a dangerous trend inimical to mankind.

I don't really prescribe to 'gang' mentality, no matter what sides or the issue in question is.

Like a 'global' gang of foreign countries has a right to tell another individual country what they should and shouldn't do for example:
- I don't prescribe to this kind of thinking.

If we in the West ARE BETTER, then we should lead by example, not impose our will and our beliefs about right and wrong on others.

A big part of the problem of the world these days (in my opinion) is countries leaders being in bed with and caring more about the thoughts and feelings of all the countries leaders as well as their 'image' as seen by foreigners, than they do about the making decisions that are in the best interests of their own citizens first.

The whole thing is so polarised that leaders are literally scared of the reception they will get from foreigners, and scared of being criticised and/or kicked out of their little club of global mates that no-one will even stick their neck out to do whats in the best interests of citizens.
- Because they are derided by all the other muppet leaders the moment they do, and there's ample examples that this is how it works.

Leaders don't get in positions of power by sticking the neck out for their people. They got their by being good little muppets and maintaining the status qao or existing heirachy, in this kind of environment this makes them too weak to ever put their necks out, and better for them to go along with what others want and not make waves.

So for me, the domestic policies of Indians are for the Indians themselves to decide.
Unless the issue in question directly affects me or my country, (in which I'm then obligated to take a position) then me just having an opinion, more or less equates to me sticking my nose into other peoples businesses, where it doesn't belong.

Indian people would be right to tell me to mind my own business.

AC
"Indian people would be right to tell me to mind my own business".

I always give my opinion as a human being and not as an Indian. Let us all evolve. That is what is expected of the progress of civilisation. I am really surprised to see people like you in this era.

Indian people would be right to tell me to mind my own business.
Armchair Critic,
The Fijians would be the best people to ask about such issues !

Stalker killed girl by setting her on fire after she rejected him, Indian police say
http://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/30/asia/india-woman-burned-intl-hnk/index.html

If this is what a Muslim in India will do for being rejected, then what would a whole town full of Muslims do to do girls who don't wear Hijab as expected?

There's a good reason why people should mind their own businesses.
How many Muslim girls in India do you want gang-raped or set on fire, or killed over some backwards idea of honour by other Muslims , because we encouraged them to stop wearing Hijab in the name of human rights?

What if I told you I DEMAND INDIA stop buying cheap discounted oil from Russia?

Would Indians not tell me I have no business telling them what they should and should not do when it comes to matters of their own energy security?

Would they not tell me that Indians will do what is in the best interests on Indians?

Why don't you go back to India and start running around the Muslim communities with a loudspeaker telling them to stop wearing hijab?
Why? You'd probably end up like the girl burned to death, and so what you expect us to do it for you?
You have the gaul to say I'm wrong for not dictating what Indians should do in India, when you won't do exactly the same thing yourself in your own country.

We in Australia are not a Hindu or Muslim country.
It's not for me to say how Indians should run their country.

I am always asking 'why?'
What has led to an apparent difficulty?
So let us not talk about effects?
Let us talk instead about causes?
What principle is being applied to arrive at such a controversial conclusion?
Does that principle stand up to scrutiny?

The problem really is that it is difficult to change the thinking of a large group of people.
People adhere to outdated ideas and concepts with fervour.
They don't like change.
Rather like a large boat not being able to change course quickly.
So any change in thinking must be effected slowly.
Luckily, we are all amenable to reason, even if we don't react immediately.

No amount of wailing or waving magic wands will get a man to the moon.
Only dedicated effort, guided by strict reasoning, will accomplish that.
So it is truth and reason which make the changes we consider useful.
Witches stirring cauldrons have had their day.