Police have charge a 59 year old man with the murder of three people and the attempted murder of another at the front gate of a property outside Bogie, near Collinsville in far North Queensland. Police alleged a dispute had developed between neighbours over the property boundaries, and the assailant had invited his neighbours to meet to "settle the matter". Police said the arrested man was a long-term resident of the area, known to police, while the victims were relatively new to the area.

There is a belief by some that farmers are a special case when it comes to gun ownership and use. Some time back there was the case of farmer Ian Turnbull in NSW, who through easy access to a firearm was able to fatally shoot environmental officer Glen Turner, over a dispute concerning land clearing, Turnbull was sentenced to 35 years imprisonment.

I believe its again time to review gun laws as they apply to farmers, and evaluate their necessity and use on rural properties.

Some years back my son took a job in the Shoalhaven District of NSW, working for a dairy farmer, a relative of his then wife. On visiting, my son he forewarned me that "Geoff" the farmer was a little strange, he suffered from 'Tourette syndrome', but nothing to worry about. Geoff was also operating a side business on the property of dog breeding without council permission, and was paranoid about the council dropping in unannounced. Both Geoff and my son had gun licences, my son had no difficulty obtaining a licence, they were shooting roos and foxes etc, I called it an "unrestricted" licence, but I'm not up with the haps on those things.

After a time, my son and his wife moved back to Sydney, the reason was the wife didn't like Geoff and his odd behaviour, he would often walk around carrying a rifle (possibly loaded) for no apparent reason. I was glad the son and D in L left, I had concluded Geoff was a nutter, and couldn't be trusted with guns, but he had a licence.

Dear Paul,

Dreadful things can happen with guns - especially when
people have mental-health issues - not only on farms
but anywhere. I'm not sure how we can stop this from
happening. I'm sure that there are police-checks
already in place.

The laws concerning the use of guns on farms from
what I understand have been designed to accommodate
the diverse needs of Australian farmers. I believe that
sourcing a gun for farm use is not a complicated process.
All that's needed is a valid state gun license as well
as a permit. I believe that guns can even be bought
online. And there are gun shops in all of the country's
major cities.

Once a gun's been bought the bulk of the responsibility rests
with the farmer - including gun maintenance, storage.
And I'm sure there are strict guidelines as it
relates to work.

It's the mental-health problems of people being allowed to
purchase guns that perhaps needs to be looked again, especially
considering these recent tragedies. I'm sure a lot of these
mental health problems go unreported - so it would be
difficult to monitor them. But its definitely worth looking
at.

It does concern me that firearms are seen as "tools of the trade" when it comes to farmers, and the onus is on the gun owner to do the right thing, with little oversight from outside. In many instances the Pre-Licence Qualification Course (Firearms) is conducted by firearm interests such as gun shops and gun clubs, without adequate mental capacity checks being carried out. Many will be aware of the case of John Edwards who was trained and equipped by the SSAA's St Marys Pistol Club without any proper check of Edwards mental capability. Edwards went on the shoot dead his two children Jack and Jennifer in 2018. Another failure of the system.

Gun ownership, and use, often attracts the mentally unstable, as it offers them a means of overcoming their feelings of inadequacy within society, it gives them a sense of power over others that they otherwise would not possess.

Hi Paul,

It seems that there is a call for firearm control from
farmers as well. They have problems with hunters using
their properties without asking permission and the
damage that hunters cause costs farmers a fortune to
repair.

It's a complex issue.

There's more at:

http://abc.net.au/2021-10-12/firearm-reform-call-by-pastoralist/100526354

Ooooops. Here's the link again:

http://abc.net.au/news/2021-10-12/firearm-reform-call-by-pastoralist/100526354

Hi Foxy,

"reckless behaviour of some shooters that has left his (farm) workers and stock in fear for their lives."

Yes, so typical, the gun happy brigade are an extremely reckless and a selfish mob thinking only of their own perverse pleasure. We seen the underhanded efforts by the pro-gun Steve Dickson a close associate of Malcolm Roberts and Pauline Hanson in trying to obtain financial benefit in the form of slush money from a foreign organisation to use to undermine Australia's already weakened gun laws. Don't worry about the mentally deranged with guns, we have the NSW Shooters and Hooters Party with a policy of arming school children!

Hi Paul,

I understand your concerns about gun laws.
I was under the impression that this country
was doing OK - and was nothing like the US.

I'd hate for us to become like the US.

I think that this happens from time to time is almost inevitable. Farmers still seem to me to need guns

As most of you know I was a Licensing Police Officer when I was still in the job. And as I said in an earlier email at that time - When asked about the strength or otherwise of our existing F/A licensing laws, whether they were sufficiently robust or whether they needed further strengthening. I'll again reiterate;

There should be even further comprehensive inquiries made by police into the emotionally fitness or otherwise, for an applicant to be granted a F/A license, and be in possession of a F/A. Or medical/psychiatric evidence, suggesting that individual should have his F/A licence, denied, revoked, and any firearms currently in his possession; be surrendered or seized.

At the same time, the official position has always been, a F/A is an integral tool needed in some instances of primary production. Moreover, bona fide F/A clubs have their place as well, as shooting is a recognised Olympic Sport.

But I can accept and acknowledge the legitimate concerns of both, PAUL1405 and FOXY, that there's always one that can slip through the net, leaving a trail of horror and death in their wake. How can it be stopped...? I don't know. Other than increasing the vigilance of all licensing police, and requiring an applicant to furnish (i) Evidence of Good Character, together with (ii) a Psychiatric Certificate of Fitness to be lodged with every F/A application.

ACAB, so there's that

Dear O Sung Wu,

I respect your expertise in this matter.
I'm not familiar with all the laws in place
but I think that we are doing much better than
the US. I also don't have any answers except to
agree with what you recommend. Which to me makes
sense. It's such a complicated issue.

Hi Foxy,

My concern is, there are those who are dismissive of this type of tragedy, claiming; "nothing to see here". We as a society need to be every vigilant, as there are those who seek to white-ant our gun laws at every opportunity.

News today is the alleged murderer in this case, Darryl Young had a police gun ban overturned, he was previously banned from owning a gun licence before successfully appealing the ruling

Queensland Police refused to renew Darryl Valroy Young's gun licence in 2010 after it found he was "not a fit and proper person" to hold firearms.

It added an approval for a licence to own four rifles and a shotgun "was not considered to be in the public interest".

But the 59-year-old appealed to the Civil and Administrative Tribunal claiming he needed the weapons for his business, to kill feral animals on his property in Bogie.

"I would like the Tribunal to over turn the rejection notice as I have not broken any laws to stop me having a gun licence," Young wrote, his appeal was successful.

BTW; I hate to compare the failed gun state of America with Australia, where the gun lobby have almost total control of gun laws, unfortunately we see the result of that (non) control on a daily basis. There are those in Australia who seek to implement out of control American style gun laws here.

Comparing America and Australia on gun laws is a bit like comparing Venus and Earth on Climate Change.

Definitely agree, before allowed access to weapons and getting a licence applicants should be tested for mental health, if this was done the most common murder weapon in Australia would not be available to so many people.
Strict licencing of owners and registration of weapons is a proven method of decreasing attacks that leave many victims horribly wounded and others dead.

Anyone disagree?

I don't disagree with mental health scanning, are we saying we don't do that?

Of course we don’t and it is very necessary if we are to put a stop to the killings and woundings with the weapons that most Australians are murdered or wounded with.

Hi Issy,

Welcome to the discussion, you're about to pull out that silly old chestnut of gunnie nonsense are you not, straight out of your foreign masters handbook, look at KNIVES fellas, nothing to see here when it comes to GUNS. That's because you have no defence of lax gun controls leading to murders in the community, so you try to deflect to something else unrelated. All murders are undesirable, and any we can prevent is a good thing.

Let me put it this way, if 99 people were murdered by knives, but only one by a gun. If its only possible to do something about the one, is that not preferable to doing nothing about the 100?

The cold dead hand of Charlton Heston and the American NRA will be proud of you my boy.

Is Mise

I was surprised to learn that the man who started the Shooter's Party, and died a a couple of days ago, was the father of the ABC'S Lefty Laura Tingle.

Good post, Herr zDoktor,,
But something can be done about knives, if licencing of gun owners and gun weapons is the answer to gun crime why is not the same regeme applicable to knife owners and their weapons?
If it would work for one then it should work for others.
Mental health checks are desirable for all who have the means to kill easily.
Motor vehicle drivers are licenced and their vehicles registered yet murders and other homicides are committed with vehicles.

Mental health testing could be applied to many other aspects of society.

Politicians for a start, then bus drivers, train drivers, railway signalmen/women, boiler attendants, doctors, nurse and chemists and anyone else who has a job where mental
imbalance could cause deaths.
These are also positions where alcohol can also be a problem as it not only dulls the senses but can be the trigger for mental problems.

Herr Doktor, something can be done about knife murders, hard but doable, but those who have an agenda against the hundreds of thousand of licenced gun ownners would prefer to
ignore the weapon used for the most murders and the unfortunate victims.

ttbn,
Yes, I suppose that most people would not associate John and Laura.

John was a thorough gentleman and I was proud to call him friend.
He did a mighty jon for gun owners and others and for his country.

You're losing the plot Issy on this subject as usual.

Primary purpose, primary purpose Issy, the vast majority of knife owners have them for their primary purpose, cutting up the Sunday roast or buttering their toast on Monday mornings etc etc. Guns on the other hand have a primary purpose of killing things, humans and animals. So that is why we must licence the gun, and the owner of it, YOU for example!. And given that guns have a primary purpose of killing, vigilance should be to the fore when handing out licences, don't you agree?

My point is we have the case of an accused murderer with a gun, he was given a licence to kill, which was questioned by police, and now the police allege he done exactly that, kill people with his gun. Somewhere it appeases the system has failed yet again. You don't need reminding of the system failures with SSAA member John Edwards and farmer Ian Turnbull, here is possibly another one. What do you think government should do about it?

Sorry to hear of the death of John Tingle, he may have been screwed up forming the Shooters Party, but from memory he had a reasonable social conscience. Not like the nut jobs running the party today.

I thought the Shooters and Hooters party had gone all Commo, hearing of the "Five Year Plan", rest assured they're not Communists at all, but their plan is to arm five years old's with loaded guns, that's the five year plan

"Mental health testing could be applied to many other aspects of society."

Sounds good in theory, the linkely result is we'd have to euthanise half the country.

Bye-bye bat-shite crazy left, most of the Greens and a decent majority of the right.
Also, get rid of the dysfunctional kids with crap upbringings as well as the slightly up the ladder ones infected with 'they' / 'them' identity politics and critical race ideology, the spastic woke university types and all the weirdo trans people,
Throw in as well as the large number of single mums and middle age women bingeing on their daily wine and antidepressants,
- as well as most of the crazed youth and loser men in their mid 30's taking amphetamines
Don't forget those addicted to alcohol, and a large percentage of today's semi-retarded (but considered normal) millenials.
- That would have to be at least half the country wouldn't it?

But I agree with mental testing for gun owners and the sooner the better and the primary purpose of all guns is not to kill.
Guns designed to fire blanks only cannot kill, such as starting pistols but they must be registered, likewise the Zimmerstutzen, used in Bavarian pubs tp shoot at a target on the wall, much as the English play darts.
Darts, by the way, also ought to be registered their primary purpose was killing but they were adapted to target shooting; although that hasn’t stopped their criminal use on occasions.
All people who have the use of potentially destructive devices ought to be tested for their mental condition, it’s not what the things were designed for but the destructive use to which they may be put by the mentally unstable.
It’s about saving lives.

Hi FOXY...

You're so right, it is a complicated issue. The problem being police can deny an application - only for the unsuccessful applicant to go above the heads of the licensing police, to either the AAT or to an even higher authority? And more often or not, a license is granted. It beats me FOXY?

G'day IS MISE...

I totally agree with you; candidates should be closely screened to determine whether they, or a current owner, is mentally and emotional fit to possess and use a F/A. When I was in the job, it was essentially left to us to assess & determine the mental fineness or otherwise of an applicant. By his presence, behaviour, or demeanour, when asked to attend the F/A Registry. Hardly an efficient method to determine such a precise judgement, one that can have such profound consequences if we get it wrong?

And we (the police) are only the first line of scrutiny. And if the applicant didn't care too much for our adjudication (the lowest), he'd simply appeal to a magistrate, and so on, right up the judicial ladder, or until his money was exhausted.

I believe the ACT F/A Registry had it down best. If a designated police officer denied a licence or wished to seize a F/A, the appellant had to seek leave, from the F/A Registrar (a high-ranking commissioned police officer of Supt. or above) to even commence proceedings to have the matter heard before a court.

Personally, I don't know what further measures the authorities can introduce, as additional protection from those individuals with mental illness, accessing F/As. There, used to be a section in the application form that asks if the applicant is suffering any condition that might preclude them from safely and legally operating a F/A. But the answer requires a level of candour from the applicant.

Okay Issy, I give up, we will make an exception for drunks in Bavarian pubs with their Zuzubangers!

Here they are, they even brought their own barrels;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1lU5KwPyvk

Is that you Issy, second from the right?

I think all members, and any new applicants for the SSAA or Shooters and Hooters Party should be tested for mental capability. Me thinks we'll have a 100% failure rate.

Issy, I thought by now you would have brought up your trusty old excuse for gun ownership, that nasty beasty the "Scrub Bull".

Last Wednesday morning 9am George St Sydney

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sar6FiqUxts

Is that you Issy, being interviewed?

You and I both know Herr Doktor that you were refused a Firearms Licence in late 2010 and you’ve been niggly ever since but I suppose being not considered a fit and proper person would upset one a bit.
I see that subsequent applications went the same way.

Hi Issy,

I have never felt so inadequate that I've had a need for a firearm, thus never had a need to apply. There has been a long held unquestioned view in society that; "farmers need guns". I question that assertion to a degree, and to apply the simply premise, if he or she is a farmer then without question they should have access to guns is dangerous. This triple murder may well be a case in question, where a "nutter" simply because he is a "farmer" is granted access to high powered firearms, with devastating results.

This leads to another question regarding the granting and holding of firearm licences, mental capacity. We seen it with both John Edwards and Ian Turnbull, and are we seeing it again with Darryl Young, little regard being given to the mental capacity when granting and renewing gun licence, because; "He's a farmer".

Herr Doctor Goebbels,
Having found that you were considered an unproper person to hold a firearms licence I have no further wish to discuss the subject, your lies, half truths and innuendo were bad enough when one thought that they were in support of a cause that you believed in but now that they are revealed as nothing more than personal spite then I have no desire to pursue the matter further.

Hi Issy,

Doctor Goebbels died in 1945, why are you still trying to contact him in the sprite world, are you a medium in league with the Devil? Anyway that's not very nice to speak to a folk hero of yours in that way. Dr Goebbels always spoke highly of you.

In my case I've never had the desire to apply for a gun licence, never felt so inadequate that I had the need. How about you?

No comment, now or in the future.

Gee Issy,

You've gone all SOOKY on me. That's not like you to take your bat and ball and toddle off home. I'm heart broken! And we were getting on just fine, but I suppose Gunnies are a temperamental bunch, well, Martin Bryant was rather temperamental Gunnie, we can agree on that.

On a side note, speaking of firepower..
Right now, Russia shells 700 to 800 positions of Ukrainian forces everyday,
- Using between 40000 to 60000 pieces of ammunition.

Hi AC,

A good example of what happens when you have lax gun laws. I'm sure Vlad Putin is the head of the Russian Shooters and Hooters Party! He does a lot of shootemn' and hooten'

Putin's got a new pet.
http://youtu.be/f2NfkNF0V3Y

Ugly bloody thing, good one for the kiddies at Xmas.