A new poll undertaken on behalf of the Institute for Public Affairs suggests that the political class might be out of touch with the Australian population.

Respondents were asked if they agreed or disagreed with the following statement: "Australia should build new coal-fired power stations to ensure families have reliable and affordable electricity all year round".

55% Agreed

23% Disagreed

22% Neither agreed or disagreed.

In the 18-24 age group 49% Agreed, 23% Disagreed

In the 25-54 age group 62% Agreed, 17% Disagreed

In the 55 + age group 45% Agreed, 35% Disagreed

Don't know where you get this stuff from ttbn, but what a loaded question. One could equally ask;

Australia should build new coal-fired power stations to pollute the atmosphere more.

The question to get an honest answer;

Should Australia build new coal fired power stations?

How about more info on the survey, like a link.

People had the option of agreeing to the proposition or not agreeing. Most agreed.

People seem divided on the issue. Here's two different
links:

http://ipa.org.au/publications-ipa/media-releases/australians-back-nuclear-power

And -

http://ipa.org.au/publications-ipa/media-releases/australias-great-energy-crisis

The IPA is not where I came by the information, but the link gives 1405 the opportunity to use his favourite word 'Nazi'.

I don't bother giving links because the loony left immediately shoots the messenger in lieu of discussing or just commenting on the actual subject; and sane posters - the majority - do have the sense to go with the subject or idea.

Not every one goes with the subject or idea.
Some resort to criticising the subject or idea
and attack the person personally time and time again,
who raises
the subject or idea for discussion - right ttbn?

Looking back: although I didn't get the information from the IPA site, I did mention in the very first line that the survey was done for them.

Not close enough to a 'link' for 1405? Is 1405 not capable of taking it from there? Couldn't look it up like his fellow lefty did?

I think he could have. He is not that thick. His problem is his 'greenness' and cancel culture agenda. See something you don’t like - attack. It's a wonder Foxy hasn't pointed that out to him, as she is so concerned about 'personal' attacks.

All to do with being tarred with the same brush, I suppose; it's OK when your side does it

ttbn,

Paul has not personally attacked me.
You have.

Institute for Public Affairs, no credibility on this at all, a conservative think tank with a pro coal bias to begin with. Of course they would conduct a "survey", and load the statement to give the desired outcome.

That's right Foxy, this guy seems to have special immunity on this forum, when it comes to attacking others, particularly you, I don't care what he says about me. I see his constant personal attacks directed at you.

Hi Paul,

I wonder if he realizes how offensive he is?

Still, I must be doing something right.

I don't care what I say about you either, Paul, so we have that in common. You say the IPA is not credible because it's conservative and likes coal. I say that you are not credible because you are a Commo, and like expensive, unreliable wind and sun. Anyway it's the respondents who give the answers, not the IPA, who had the survey done for them by a firm that just does surveys; they are not political. How much business do you think pollsters would get if they were politically motivated? OK. You wouldn't have thought about that, just as you don’t think about anything before you start shouting.

So, yes, the IPA is conservative; so am I. So what? Are you so stupid that you think I need telling to remind me? Are you such a full on culture canceller and loud-mouthed bully to think I'm going to shut and go away? All this 'Nazi', 'old fart' business just proves to everyone what a gormless idiot you are. You seem to have never grown up, or you are experiencing a second childhood.

Perhaps you and Foxy could start polling to get answers that suit you.

Hi Paul,

Wow. He is pretty offensive.

As for polling?

There are so many polls to choose from.
That we really are spoilt for choice.

Drunk driver who killed four children in Sydney has jail sentence reduced by eight years
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-15/oatlands-driver-has-sentence-reduced-by-eight-years/101241368

Politicians out of touch?
The whole countries had it.

Read this article above, the guy was taking cocaine, speed and drinking, loses control of his car mounts the kerb and hits 7 kids, killing 4, 3 of them siblings
- Then complains to the court that his sentense was manifestly excessive.

I'm glad I'm not a parent of those kids.
I might be thinking about taking the law into my own hands.
- Outrageous -

China, Russia and India have absolutely no intention of closing down the development of their economies to achieve net-zero emissions. It is likely that after the next presidential election, the US will again abandon the Paris nonsense, and to avoid the retribution of their voters, European powers won't actually observe its terms.

Yet, we have an Ocker hick of a PM who is still banging on about climate change being the 'biggest threat' and hanging on to the zero emissions myth leading to economic and national suicide.

As serious as the whole climate problem is, the discussions about it are generally a joke ! Just some pseudo intellectuals believing their own nonsense !
Reality dictates burning coal for decades yet !

Got to agree with you AC.

Indyvidual

I think that they know they have got it wrong, but they are too proud to admit it. The Europeans have found that they have to back off. I don't know what's wrong with the idiots here. We most certainly do not get good people in politics, no matter who we vote for.

They've all fired up the coal stations, but they havent given up on their agendas, and they won't.
Have you all not seen whats going on with the farmers in the Netherlands and other countries?
They are dumping manure on government buildings and spraying them with effluent.
They've even got their own water cannons now.

Dutch Farmers Spray Manure On Government Buildings In Protest
http://youtu.be/7IG6FsVVFfc

But the royals and elites will never stop their global agendas.
In the US they are doing public service announcements for nuclear attack, and that's probably where it's going to end up.

NYC releases nuclear attack PSA
http://youtu.be/0hU-DNhhlJE

Russia will take all of the Donbass, then they will negotiate for peace, but the West won't accept it.
At this point, things have the possibility of spiraling out of control quite quickly.

The thing about all this is Russia has S-500 and S-550 which will intercept some of the US nukes,
but the west has no missile defense capable of stopping Russian nukes.
The worlds gone mad, and I told you all it will come to this.
Russia can take out the UK, US, Europe with Sarmat.
They're now more or less calling it a World War.
http://youtu.be/x5_2XZ0Fkq0

This is all the Wests fault for overthrowing Ukraine in 2014.
Just as they've been doing all across the globe for decades.
- They even helped cause the mess in Sri Lanka.

The ZMEEVIK Ballistic Missile with hypersonic combat equipment has been in development for quite a long time. It is designed to destroy large surface targets, primarily aircraft carriers.

Putin’s ‘aircraft carrier killer’ Zmeevik hypersonic missile; Threat to U.S Naval fleet
http://youtu.be/KZbghZNb9DY

Does anyone actually think things are going to go back to normal and peace? I don't.

The horrible Russia-Ukraine conflict will eventually shut the climate industry hyprocrisy down !
Too much funding wasted on particularly those climate preachers who are least inclined to curb their excesses !

I would not take any poll sponsored by the IPA seriously. They are a group of self-interested agenda-driven individuals with obvious funding links and have effectively been running the Liberal Party for years.

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Institute_of_Public_Affairs

The poll was undertaken by 1000 people between 18-19 June 2022 but no indications of who was polled and how the poll was undertaken have been supplied.

https://ipa.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/14072022-IPA-2022-Australias-Energy-Crisis-Poll-Final.pdf

Only one question (only coal equals reliability and low cost) was asked with no alternatives presented -an example of "push-polling" - and is effectively meaningless.

Hi rache,

I said straight away the statement was loaded; "to ensure families have reliable and affordable electricity all year round" you've got almost universal agreement with that last part of the statement to begin with. Obviously it was only included to create a bias. The correct statement would be simply to ask; ""Australia should build new coal-fired power stations".

What are the alternatives to coal right now ?

Indyvidual

We know that there is no real alternative, except gas, but the deluded fools don't like that either. It's not even worth mentioning nuclear to the troglodytes.

That there is no practical alternative to coal has been demonstrated in Europe. But our retarded politicians are taking no notice.

We are headed for energy chaos that will bring our economy to its knees. Nobody who could do anything to stop this is listening. The only consolation for me is that it is not my generation that will suffer; the ignoramuses who are doing the damage will have to live with the results of their stupidity.

The ALP government has officially adopted the Greens fright phrase 'climate emergency'.

It has also backed the Vanuatu claim to some world commo court that lack of action on climate change is a breach of human rights!

In the meantime, the same West that won the Cold War can’t keep the lights on without Russia. Even our boganesque government is blaming Russia for power shortages and the expense we were promised they would reduce.

ttbn,
Humans are generally stupid ! Thank Heaven for the people rising above them albeit in too small a number !

There's so many complex issues at play here and it
really is simplistic to continue to finger-point.
In one of the links that I gave in this discussion
there was a link from the Institute of Public Affairs
that made the claim that Australians back nuclear power.

http://ipa.org.au/publications-ipa/media-releases/australians-back-nuclear-power

Then we have another link giving 10 reasons why renewable energy
is the future given by another link.

http://theconversation.com/really-australia-its-not-that-hard-10-reasons-why-renewable-energy-is-the-future-130459

So there's a variety of opinions on the subject.

One thing is clear. Our science in this country is first-class.
We have access to so many good people who I'm sure will be
able to advise the government on the energy issues.
Inaction on climate change did play a big part in this last
federal election - there's no question about that. And it
will continue to play a major part in politics. For any
politician to ignore this issue is foolish. The election results
speak for themselves. As the Morrison government learned the
hard way.

Australians made their voices heard in collective condemnation.
They said a resounding NO to climate inaction.
And we saw the seismic impact that independent candidates had
on the outcome.

As for Australia's involvement in helping Ukraine?

What's happening there should matter to every rational and
decent Australian. The human cost of war should always matter.
Any country that chooses to inflict the horrors of war on
another deserves universal condemnation. This is an unprecedented
invasion by Russia. The following link explains further:

http://humanrights.gov.au/about/news/opinions/what-happening-ukraine-should-matter-every-australian

The USSR was a blood-stained regime
In which millions were murdered as a daily routine
Might is Right was their slogan of choice
Dissenting cries were not given a voice

History has written of the many disposed
The frozen infernos have now been exposed
Putin and Stalin are two of a kind
Yet some in the West to this are still blind

Putin like Stalin will take what he wants
He will kill and destroy those who fight in response
The world can't allow this rampage of terror
Not protecting Ukraine would be a huge error

First the Ukraine, then Romania
Followed by Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania
Do we want the USSR re-instated
Ruling Eastern Europe unabated?

The world must unite and be fully aware
That this is a battle that we all need to share
Putin must be stopped in his tracks
Otherwise no sovereign nation can truly relax

Hi Foxy,

"What's happening there should matter to every rational and
decent Australian. The human cost of war should always matter.
Any country that chooses to inflict the horrors of war on
another deserves universal condemnation."

The best thing I've read on this forum in sometime.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.” Australia must do all in its power to bring about peace in Ukraine.

Dear Paul,

Thank You.

There's another person who would agree with our views
on Ukraine - this may jog a few memories:

WE SHALL GO ON TO THE END
WE SHALL FIGHT THEM IN FRANCE
WE SHALL FIGHT ON THE SEAS
AND OCEANS
WE SHALL FIGHT WITH GROWING CONFIDENCE
AND GROWING STRENGTH IN THE AIR
WE SHALL DEFEND OUR ISLAND
WHATEVER THE COST MAY BE
WE SHALL FIGHT ON THE BEACHES
WE SHALL FIGHT ON THE LANDING GROUNDS
WE SHALL FIGHT IN THE FIELDS
WE SHALL FIGHT IN THE HILLS;
WE SHALL NEVER SURRENDER

( Winston S. Churchill).

"First the Ukraine, then Romania
Followed by Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania"

A domino theory for the 21st century (minus the intellectual rigour that supported the 20th century version). And naive in the extreme. The warmongers are on a roll. The arms manufacturers appreciate your efforts on their behalf.

There isn't the slightest chance that the nations mentioned will be next on the list. All are NATO members. Russia can't even manage to overcome a corrupt, weak, kleptocracy like Ukraine. Even if Russia wins it'll be years before their winnings are consolidated. The cost to Russia has been enormous.

If Russia takes on a NATO member it'd all be over in a month with the Russian army being utterly destroyed. Even Putin isn't delusional enough to think he'd stand a chance.

But whenever the war drums beat there are always a cheer-squad who naively leap on board. And often they are women.

They claim to adore peace but are the first to exult war.

Even if any of the claims about Russia taking on NATO are true (and they're all rubbish), its got precisely nothing to do with Australia.

The world is careering down the road to economic heartache and its partially due to the Ukrainian War. If Putin doesn't turn the Nord Stream gas back on on 22/7 the true idiocy of the west throwing its weight behind Ukraine will be revealed for even the most naive to see.

mhaze,
Can't help thinking you're right on that one !

There are many who disagree.

Today, Sunday, 17th July 2022 at 2.30pm
at the Palais Theatre, St Kilda, Melbourne,
there is to be a - GALA CHARITY CONCERT
FOR UKRAINE. It will be an Extravaganza
of Ukrainian, Polish, Latvian, Lithuanian and
Estonian folk dance, music, song and choral
performances, including the fabulous, -
"Lost Clog," (Pamesta Klumpe).

Tickets are available from Ticketmaster and all
proceeds will be donated to the "Ukraine Crisis Appeal."

Everyone is warmly invited to attend.

People whose families have experienced life under the
occupation of the Soviet Regime know what the loss of
liberty is like and why it is worth fighting for. Just
as Winston Churchill knew that fighting for his country
was worth the fight - when he considered the alternative.

Anyone who does not understand that - has obviously
never experienced the loss of their country, family, or
identity. The close to 40,000 Ukrainians living in this
country agree. They are asking for help in the fight
for their country's freedom. And we as freedom loving
people have a moral obligation to help. It's them today
it may well be us needing help tomorrow! We need to
stand by our principles.

Vigilance if the price of liberty.

The measure of our society over history is our fidelity to
our principles. We must remind our government and our people
to remain faithful to those principles or otherwise our
society, like so many in the past, will be swept on the ash
heap of history.

Hi Foxy,

I totally agree, many Australians with peace and goodwill in their hearts for Ukrainians affected by this horrible war will give generously to help. Money raided I hope will be used for much needed non-military, humanitarian aid to those affected so badly.

Jim Chalmers has naively welcomed the rumour that China might lift some of its trade bans against us, unaware of the fact it would only happen because China itself finally needs what we have to boost its economy while we are ruining ours with net zero fever.

So fast is the Chinese economy increasing, that it is now using more coal than Australia digs up each year. The BRICS countries China has been using instead of Australia are apparently not keeping up.

There will be no changes to the the totalitarian Chinese Communist Party, which will continue trying to blackmail us into 'respecting' them.

How on earth can anyone respect Communism and its vile treatment of people! It's hard to believe that a democratic country could ever do that.

But, with our new ALP Socialist regime, anything could happen.

I agree with mhaze in respect to Putin taking over any other European countries other than Ukraine, I don't think he has any intention whatsoever of do so.
- But that doesn't mean I don't think he won't nuke Europe the UK and the US if it comes to it.
I think he's quite prepared to do so if the west continues to press him, or push him too far.
That is if they wish to contain or destroy Russia in any way.

The US overthrew the country in 2014 and has tried to make it a NATO country.
That was the red-line for Putin and Russia.
The US would not accept Russian or Chinese bases in Mexico or Cuba, Russia is just playing by the same rules and expects the same terms as the US expects for itself.
http://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/monroe-doctrine
The US screams about being a defender of democracy and nations sovereignty, but it doesn't play by the same rules.
It overthrows countries as it chooses and places military bases all over the planet.
- Even now it's still stealing oil from Syria.

The US can't stop other countries buying Russian oil and gas,
Do you know who's been buying a lot of Russian oil?
It may surprise you to know that Saudi Arabia is buying a lot of it for domestic use, so they can sell their own at the higher price.

Beyond all this, the US itself is pushing for a continuation of the war, for the sake of global economic collapse, that's the aim.
- It's all for a purpose, the dollars going to crash and then they will bring in a digital currency which further consolidates power by bankers and elites over the rest of us.

It cares not how many Ukrainians die for this aim.
Zelensky is a narcissist, sociopath and a paid actor playing his part, drunk on his ego and the applause he's receiving by Western countries egging him on.

Russia can't conquer and occupy western Europe but it is quite capable of destroying all the US carrier fleets and nuking everyone.
They will take all of the Donbass and negotiate for peace, demanding that Crimea and the Donbass are part of Russia, The West will not agree and Russia will then take more - everything east of the Dnipro, but this will likely end up causing a nuclear war.

Putin's not going to give up territory, that he was forced to take at the cost of dead Russians.
This is the Wests fault, for not sticking to the terms of the UN agreed Minsk agreements and poking the Russian bear, because this war is in effect exactly what the West wants.

Dear Paul,

Thankfully -

There are many in Australia who fully understand why
it is important to support Ukraine.

As one poster wrote on
the web: -

"Nothing changes when you're dealing with
evil contempt. Nothing!!"

The US overthrew the country and spent 8 years killing Russians in eastern Ukraine in order to force Putin to intervene, this is exactly what the west wanted, whilst standing back and pretending it had nothing to do with it, and claiming it's the good guy, the defender of democracy and nations national sovereignty.

Russia has nuclear storage facilities 20klms from the Ukraine border.
It says it won't provide long range weapons capabilities to Ukraine, then a few weeks later goes and does exactly that.

The US is not trying to initiate peace, and if it's not doing that, it's because it what it really wants to do is to see the situation deteriorate further.

Russia will probably turn the gas to Europe back on, if only in a small quantity, to not look like it's willfully trying to worsen the situation, and to also keep a few cards up it's sleeve if Europe and the West continues the path it's going down.

But Europe will try to gain further gas resources from Western Asia and the Eastern Mediterranean.

"If Russia takes on a NATO member it'd all be over in a month with the Russian army being utterly destroyed. Even Putin isn't delusional enough to think he'd stand a chance."

Could a European Union Army Defeat Russia?
http://youtu.be/AWVOiPT1bus

"There are many in Australia who fully understand why
it is important to support Ukraine."

Just useful idiots, no offense Foxy.
Just happy ignorant people sitting at home on their comfy lounges.
They will quickly reconsider their positions if they're conscripted to stand in front of Russia's artillery or the nukes start dropping.
- People with misplaced ideals, but aren't willing to stand in front of Krasukha rockets.

The actual CORRECT position Foxy, is to support peace and a negotiated settlement.
- Anything other than that, and people will continue to die in most horrible ways.

AC,

No they are not "useful idiots," but people of principle
for for freedom and their principles - who
have experienced what it means to lose
their countries, family members, and everything
they held dear.

http://palaistheatre.com.au/whats-on/gala-concert-ukraine

Nothing has been learned in Australia from the energy crisis, and therefore the economic crisis, in Europe and their altered attitude to coal and its absolute necessity; and so our ALP Socialist regime's Climate Change Bill is being rightly described as: "the formalisation of energy recklessness and the victory of radical ideology over reality".

Albanese has said, "Those who do not support climate targets will be held accountable for it".

The Bill will financially benefit a range of large ‘green’ corporations and destroy industries primarily comprising family businesses and ordinary individuals. Market interference ruining people's lives for no benefit to the climate at all. And the benefits to Communist China, producer of most renewables, will be enormous, and the CCP will have control of our energy.

Naive and stupid is the only way to describe the ALP Socialist's energy policy and its effect on the economy and our physical security.

"Locking into law what is failing catastrophically around the world reveals a Labor government that has no interest in exercising caution and care with the Australian economy" is the best way to sum up this absurd, suicidal Climate Change Bill.

"Those who do not support climate targets will be held accountable for it"
Just another one of the little globalist lackeys ttbn.

Actually, thinking about it, I think I called them all far worse names at one point.
This is all our leaders are:
http://youtu.be/JGfXiIXTpE0
- Weak, pansy-like little piss-boys, toddling around with their gold piss buckets.

The national renewable obsession will inflict far more damage than climate change. Our future is now determined by anarchists, activists, “carbon capitalists” and a ruthless political class happy to equate “carbon” with carbon dioxide. They won’t rest until they destroy the economic foundation of our way of life.

Energy prices are the key to any economy.

As if to emphasise the reason the Federal Liberals were kicked out - too much like Labor - the Victorian Liberals have adopted a 50 per cent carbon emissions reduction by 2030 target, matching Labor; and they want it legislated immediately.

Don't worry about China. We are moving towards the One Party People's Republic of Australia on our own.

People are quite able to ignore information contrary to their deeply held beliefs. It is called “cognitive dissonance”.Cults (like the current climate cult) believe in a looming catastrophe, usually coming up with some excuse when the predicted date of the catastrophe comes and passes.

Globally all politicians, both left and right, are out of touch with the question of energy. For about 20 years those engaged in energy research have warned that we are reaching 'peak fossil fuel energy'. This does not mean that we have run out of the fossil fuels but rather that the energy required to extract the fossil fuels is greater than the energy it supplies. First Covid and now the war in Ukraine have helped to disguise the extent of the challenge.
The world has not used the last 20 years well. We have continued to encourage lifestyles which depend on high energy consumption with the result that we have run down our stocks even faster than before.
Unsurprisingly this discussion has focussed on climate change but even if climate change were not a problem we would still need to explore alternative sources of energy.
The original question posed conveniently ignores the reality that even if we build new coal fired power stations energy will rapidly become unaffordable as the world runs out of sufficient coal/oil and gas to keep those power stations going.
Globally the problem is the same - politicians are reluctant to tell people that we are living beyond our means. It is not a popular message and it is one that politicians from across the political spectrum are unwilling to address.

"This does not mean that we have run out of the fossil fuels but rather that the energy required to extract the fossil fuels is greater than the energy it supplies."

If that were true, they wouldn't be drilling more wells and building more pipelines.
In fact, it's ALL ABOUT drilling wells and building new pipelines.
And that's why Chevron is worth some 270 bln and ENI 55bln in marketcap, and why Gazprom is raking in a billion a day;
- and why the West starts wars to engineer an energy crisis that increases the price of energy so that new projects in the Eastern Mediterranean, be it the Leviathon gasfields owned by Chevron and the Zohr gasfields owned by state-owned ENI become that much more profitable.

Payday for western oil and gas, while people in Ukraine die.
But you know all of it's just 'good business', and money in the pockets of those in the know.
- The worlds just a big scam for corporate greed, the rest of us remain too stupid and ignorant to know any better.

Sorry armchair critic but you have failed to understand the way the extractive industries work. Of course there are still opportunities to open up new fields and yes those companies can make profits. But you have lost sight of the question which started this thread:
-Australia should build new coal-fired power stations to ensure families have reliable and affordable electricity all year round.
Peak fossil fuel means that the global supply of fossil fuel is declining whilst demand for those fuels in rising. This essentially means that it is become less affordable for many families.
Already we are seeing that many of the wealthiest families are switching to 100% renewables - they do not want to be held capitive by rising prices as supply dwindles.
You are right when you state:
Payday for western oil and gas, while people in Ukraine die.
But you know all of it's just 'good business', and money in the pockets of those in the know.
- The worlds just a big scam for corporate greed, the rest of us remain too stupid and ignorant to know any better.
(You might like to read T.J., Coles, Privatized Planet: Free Trade as a weapon against Democracy Healthcare and the Environment. 2019, Oxford: New Internationalist. it documents that quite well.)
In my post I was merely highlighting that the initial proposition is misleading - even if we continue to open new coal mines and extract more gas we will not make energy more affordable for Australian families but we will help line the pockets of the multinationals who will resist attempts to prevent them from selling where ever they can get the most for their fuels

Hey Baygon,
Yes I may have gone off a little on a tangent there, sorry.