Regular contributor to Quadrant and practising Christian, Peter Smith, comments on the amazing, cowardly and downright wrong action of a majority of Anglican bishops stymying a recent proposal put to a general synod "that marriage is only between a man and a woman".

Smith suggests that the bishops "actually read the Bible".

Where do the Christian clergy think their credibility springs from? "From the Bible. The whole of it. Every word of it".

The bishops do not have an option to "misconstrue, distort, or ignore plain biblical admonishments". They are lying about the "very book on which they purport to base their lives and guide others".

Good for Peter Smith. These bishops should look for a different line of work. Non-Christians can think and say what they like about SSM, but Christians, particularly princes of the Church, who are paid to spread the word, have no room to move on the subject.

Despite the decision by the General Synod, each diocese
can make a separate decision. The Sydney Diocese for
example firmly opposes gay marriage. 3.1 million Australians
are Anglicans.

There's more at:

http://theaustralian.com.au/the-oz/anglican-church-says-yes-to-same-sex-marriage/news-story/952690c10e2ec59d353f9eea06c7369d

They have been rewriting history for years; now they think that they can rewrite the Bible. No wonder Islam is the only growing religion and, and Christians are deserting corrupt churches and going it alone.

Kudos ttbn

CM

Just a mini review of an article by man who is actually an economist, but who knows a lot about other things, too.

Organised religion is going with the mob in a vain attempt to be relevant. Where once they they demanded freedom of interference by the state, they are now interfering in politics; a bit like woke corporations.

Cardinal George Pell brought the wrath of society down on himself for being one of the few clerics who still does things by The Book.

So which version of "The Bible" do you suggest these bishops should study ttbn? There have been quite a few over the years.

This is just disgruntled 'christians' gripping about something that doesn't suit them and cherry picking bits of their sacred text to justify their very un-christian position. Same old same old. They have been doing this for centuries.

Aries54,

I'm not suggesting anyone do anything. As I said: I reported on something written by a person whose opinions and knowledge I respect. You are clearly not interested in commenting on what he said.

Your article is clearly titled "Bishops should read the bible". I'm responding to that. And no, I don't give a flying fig what some aristocrat of the church has to say about anything, such is the loss of credibility the church has earned.

Hi Aries,

I remember the times when as a Catholic you weren't
allowed to associate with non-Catholics, go into
other churches, and you got caned if you didn't
quote the Catechism exactly as written. Going by the
book? Hardly! Hatred was preached from
the pulpit about non-Catholics never going to heaven.
Purgatory was reserved for them until they converted.

It was all about control. Not so much about practicing
what Christ taught. Hence, many leaving and looking for
answers elsewhere is a sad reflection of why church
attendance is not what is once was.

Before the Churches can condemn others the lives of others
it needs to clean up its own institutions and practices.
It needs to lead by active example and not just words.
Rigid social exclusion based on gender, sexual orientation,
and actions like sexual abuse need to be fixed. Empty
words don't produce good results. Actions matter.

To the best of my knowledge there is no biblical text that deals with specifically with the idea of marriage. No doubt those who are concerned about SSM will have at their fingertips the texts that deal with the nature of marriage.

I'm not a theologian so I'm not equipped to argue the
Bible with Mr Peter Smith and the context in which it was
written.

However from my general understanding of Christ's
teachings it seems to me that someone who preached love
and acceptance instead of hate would want the religious
institutions built in his name to practice what
he preached and would find it difficult
to understand (and unfair) - for the institutions to
provide different services and benefits to heterosexual
couples than they provide to gay and lesbian couples.

I would have thought that churches should be accepting of
people who want God in their lives without regard to their
sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is after all a
private matter and the church should stay out of it.
Unless of course the sexual orientation does harm to others -
but that's a different issue.

But adults who want to marry and be in
a stable relationship should not be excluded and condemned simple
because they love someone of the same sex.

Aries54

No surprise there. You are just grabbing an opportunity for an anti-Christian rant. Fine, if you feel the need.

It's not an anti-Christian rant. It's a criticism of
Christians and Christian churches who turn a faith
of love, healing and forgiveness into a excuse to
discriminate and hate others. Which goes against the
teachings of Christ.

ttbn said-

Cardinal George Pell brought the wrath of society down on himself for being one of the few clerics who still does things by The Book.

Answer- Yes Cardinal George Pell is one of the good ones- and part of the solution. But it's easier to destroy than create. Hopefully as the left tear down society the people will realize what they are doing- one of the best things we can do is let younger people of British heritage know about their own history- and how leftism has damaged things.

But the left use divisive propaganda to separate the old and the young- so that they are vulnerable.

Good to see that Peter Smith is an Economist

still no answer to my question. The claim is that the bible is the ultimate authority for questions like SSM - I have yet to see anyone provide chapter and verse that supports the claim that the bible has anything to say about marriage. Just as Martin Luther challenged the Christian authority of his day to furnish proof that he was wrong so I too ask those who claim that SSM goes against biblical teaching to provide chapter and verse.

And you dear, dear ttbn are not grabbing an opportunity to push your barrow regarding SSM? How hypocritical of you. But of course hypocrisy is such a necessary feature of being 'christian'.

The following two links explain both why churches have
been so slow to embrace same-sex marriages and also the
legalities involved:

http://theconversation.com/same-sex-marriage-is-legal-so-why-have-churches-been-so-slow-to-embrace-it-91564

http://fairfaxandroberts.com.au/same-sex-chu8rch-weddings/

Excuse the typo.

Here's the second link again:

http://fairfaxandroberts.com.au/same-sex-church-weddings/

BAYGON

Have you considered looking for yourself? You might find all sorts of interesting things.

I suspect that unlike some I have actually read the bible. You will find that the various people who make claims that SSM is contrary to Christian belief will be referring to cannocical tradition. The Council of Trent start putting together cannon law regarding marriage - then the pre-occupation was clerical celibacy today of course the concern is with SSM and transgender issues.
I have noted that irrespective of religion those who are the most strident about protecting orthodox beliefs have rarely engaged with the sacred texts of their religion. Instead they are simply concerned with point scoring.

Organisations are often faced with this type of decisions - do you change your views to suit the current majority opinion or hold fast to what you think is true and wait for the majority opinion to catch up.

The Liberals, and indeed all parties that lose elections, are faced with the same issue. Do they move toward to teals or wait for the views and policies of the teals to be exposed and for the clamorous majority to return to their home.

The church has two options. It can cave to the current majority in the hope of remaining 'relevant' or it can stick to its centuries old standards and remain true to itself and its history.

This isn't about hate or discrimination. That's just thoughtless accusations levelled by those who want to force the church to bow to the current trendiness. Remember when we were told that SSM was the final thing the gay community would ask for? It was always going to be the case that the church would be harassed into submission, even though it was denied at the time.

The church can elect to submit. Or it can elect to adhere by its standards. The latter might result in it losing adherents or it might result in it becoming stronger.

But just limp-wristedly following the herd is a sure path to irrelevance.

Foxy,
Weren’t allowed to associate with non-Catholics?
What if you were married to one or if one of your parents was a Protestant?
As for the rest, I suggest that you read the catechism.

Is Mise,

I was raised a Catholic. My parents were both Catholics.
Papa came from a well known family made up
of a number of prominent high-positioned clergy. Papa
was educated by Jesuits.

I can only speak of my own personal experiences in Australia
by the Irish Sisters of Mercy - who were anything but merciful.
BTW - I learnt the Catechism of by heart and if I didn't quote
it back to the sisters exactly as it was written - I got caned.

My husband is a Catholic. He attended school and
was taught by the Christian Brothers.

Foxy,
How were Catholics supposed to earn a living?
Associating with non-Catholics was a must.
Have you nothing to say about the Church’s rules on mixed marriage?
How were Catholics supposed to exist in society if they couldn’t associate with their neighbours who were in most cases Protestant?
How about Members of Parliament?
Policemen?
Soldiers etc.,
Your ideas of Catholicism are divorced from reality.

CM,

Isn't it time your accused these Anglo Bishops of being "Communists", it seems that you believe 99.9% of the Australian population is Communists. That excludes you, ttbn and Beavis and Butt-Head, although I'm not to sure about Butt-Head, he does bear a striking resemblance to Comrade Stalin (If you use that vivid imagination of yours).

ttbn,

The gay marriage thing is dead and buried, get over it, its here to stay, the sky didn't fall in as the Christian fundos predicted. Those Anglo Bishops, who listens to them on any moral issue, not even the Anglicans.

The word of God is not an opinion, and cannot be changed by man. People who don't believe in the word don't have to abide by it; they can think as they wish, do as they wish. Good luck to them. But, 2000 years of teaching, if you do believe in it, doesn’t change.

I agree with mhaze's post. The 'bureaucrats' posing as ministers, priests and bishops can - and sadly do - go along with the mob for relevance, but they cease to be Christians; they cease to practise Christianity. Christ could have chickened out to save himself, too; and I shudder to think how our civilisation would have turned out then. While there's faith - and belief - there is still hope, even now.

The two worst offenders against Christianity are, the current Pope and the current Archbishop of Canterbury.

Is Mise,

What I was talking about were the interpretations of
and teachings made to us as small children those many
years ago by poorly educated and narrow-minded Irish
nuns. The Sisters of Mercy.

It wasn't my version of Catholicism that I was describing
but theirs at that time.

ttbn,

You say; "The word of God is not an opinion, and cannot be changed by man."

Leviticus 21:9 — King James Version
And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Are you suggesting the Anglican Bishops promote and condone honour killings of girls by burning them to death?

Besides homosexuality being described as an "abomination" in the Bible so are the following.

* Wearing mixed-fabric clothing,
* Interbreeding animals of different species,
* Tattoos,
* Mocking the blind by putting obstacles in their way,
* Trimming your beard, or having no beard at all.

These Anglican Bishops are a slack mob. There are so many abominations they should be working on. I suggest they start with the beards.

Foxy,
Sorry, I took your post to be the statements of a mature adult not tne poorly remembered memories of childhood.
Had the Sisters of Mercy taught what you say they did then the wrath of the Bishop would have descended upon them as he received complaints from his Protestant acquaintances.
You also said that hatred was preached from the pulpit.
Was that also a child’s remembering?
I have never heard a priest talk hatred either at mass or out side of it and I’ve known priests who fought in Ireland in the 1916 Rising and after it, and some of them fought alongside Protestants, the first elected President of Ireland was a Protestant (95% Catholic voters).
Dr Douglass Hyde was a member of the Church of Ireland and his father was a rector therein.
The Sisters of Mercy were/are a well educated teaching order.

Paul1405 said- CM,

Isn't it time your accused these Anglo Bishops of being "Communists", it seems that you believe 99.9% of the Australian population is Communists.

Answer-

Not sure which Anglo Bishops Paul1405 is referring to- but the church before entryism by communist forces- generally used a Roman model of rule as opposed to an Asian model. In the Roman model localities could keep their customs under the banner of Rome.

Communism seems to use the dominating Asian model of Asia Minor, China, Egypt, Islam. China killed off the English equivalent of the Magna Carta when it killed off Lord Shan- Shang Yang. These ways of thinking have become embedded in the minds of the peoples outside of Europe- perhaps this is why the Arab Spring failed.

Anyway if Paul1405 and the Green's are getting paid by the Chinese government I hope they are paying him and the Green's well for the impact they are having against British culture.

It's easier to destroy civilization than to create it.

I hope that Paul1405 also has a good time with his gay friends because he seems to identify with their way of life.

Most Australian's are not gay.

Gay politics is not about fairness- it's about power- mostly foreign.

Good points by mhaze a few posts back. Kudos.

If they read the Bible they would see that Jesus said absolutely nothing about homosexuality or even abortion but did mention divorce, but then again many like to jump between the old and new testaments and cherry-pick to justify their own prejudices. That's how religion works.

By the way, the popular King James Bible everyone spouts is not so much a translation but a re-interpretation, deliberately written in flowery prose by selected wordsmiths of the time and intended to strengthen the divine right of kings and the church itself - more a political document.
Also, the Orthodox bible contains 7 entire books plus several additional passages somehow dropped from the Catholic version.

Thank you CM,

I'll simply ignore your "answer" as it appears to be more of your gobbledygook which you dredge up from Arsethrottle and Confusion.

"Anyway if Paul1405 and the Green's are getting paid by the Chinese government I hope they are paying him and the Green's well for the impact they are having against British culture." That's a pork pie and a cup of Bovril.

You've cracked it, how did you know. Payment for me is generally a free side of prawn chips from the Golden Dragon on a Friday night where I go for the usual short soup and a chicken chow mein, plus a bout of commie indoctrination from their regular cook Xi Jinping.

"I hope that Paul1405 also has a good time with his gay friends because he seems to identify with their way of life."

Yes I do, we socialise, drink, eat have a ripper time with gay friends, just as we do with our straight friends. Attended good Aussie friends wedding in NZ, before gay marriage was legal in Australia. BTW I'm not gay myself, but I am unlike you, tolerant and inclusive of those who are. One of our favourite nieces is gay, as is my youngest son. Should we dump them in the bigoted way you would, knowing they are gay.

"Most Australian's are not gay."

That is a statistical fact, but most Aussies are inclusive and accepting, unlike you, see above.

"Gay politics is not about fairness- it's about power- mostly foreign."

What's this gay politics, its a figment of your warped imagination, gay rights is a social justice issue. As for any foreign connection, nah, its home grown with an international connection.

Bad lot of dribble from you CM, as per usual, so its Krumpet for you from me.

Is Mise,

I'm not suggestions that all Catholic priests or nuns
behaved badly. Perhaps those were simply the times
that we lived in back then. Growing up in the outer
western suburbs of Sydney - prejudices were rife.
Of course not all memories were bad. Our parish Irish
priest was a close family friend and used to have dinner
at our place on many a Sunday. He also performed our
wedding ceremony.

My husband's experiences with the Christian Brothers here
in Melbourne as a young lad were equally negative.
However things changed for both of us as we grew older and
found our own paths in life. We look to the future with
optimism.

Hi Foxy,

A true story, in 3rd class aged 7 or 8 I made the grave mistake of asking the old Irish witch, Sister Mary, a question. Sr Mary at the time I though was 110 years old, but she was probably about 70 odd, having come from Ireland in the early 1900's as a young nun. My question was; "Sister, what is purgatory like?...After the customary glare, she pronounced that purgatory was a horrible place of fire and ice where pagans and protestants were sent, along with naughty little boys like me. She informed me that I would spend 10,000 years in purgatory paying for my sins. The thing is, I BELIEVED HER!

Later I'll tell you the story about the time Fr Michael visited the classroom and asked ME! about Moses who I confused with Noah, with Fathers broad Irish accent, about 30 girls and boys in the class why pick ME!

p/s Sr Mary was very big on punishing the pagans and the protestants, particularly the C of E mob.

p/p/s Sr Mary was always telling us we must listen to, and obey, the Holy Father in Rome, the thing was he never actually spoke to us, if he did it was in Italian.

"Most Australian's are not gay."

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

My father's gay!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvyVdWA1ziU

Hi Paul,

I still remember the old story about Sister Mary Virgilius
giving her Wednesday Assembly speech to a hall full of
girls and telling them that for an hour's worth of pleasure
they were sure to go to hell for eternity - so to think twice
before giving in to temptation and having sex.

She finished her fire and brimstone speech when a young
girl from the back of the room put up her hand to ask a
question of the nun. "Yes?" asked sister:

"How do you make it last an hour?" the young girl asked.

Foxy,

I really can’t take you seriously, your knowledge of Catholicism seems very shallow.
The priest does not perform the ceremony of matrimony, the couple do that themselves, the priest is there as the Church’s official witness, Catholics can have a valid marriage without a priest being present.

Don't you hear Seinfeld's high pitched voice-

No surprise as to how George Kostanza turned out.

Thanks for that bit of levity mhaze

Is Mise,

You can't take me seriously?

Sorry, I can't help you there.

My knowledge of Catholicism seems very shallow?

Perhaps that may be as a result of your own
limitations?

As for our wedding ceremony?

Aaah -

I still remember how beautiful and special the
priest I'd known since childhood made it for us.

I wouldn't have had it done by anybody else or
anywhere else.

It was an awesome evening.

Foxy,
Was that the same priest who preached hatred?
Just tell us all how Catholics could have functioned, as the minority that they were, in society if they weren’t allowed to have anything to do with non-Catholics.

A moments reflection on your part should have shewn you how silly your post was.
Just a thought about mixed marriages would have been enough.

As I said, your knowledge of Catholicism seems very shallow.

From Canem Malum,

"Gay politics is not about fairness- it's about power- mostly foreign."

Well that is about the thickest thing I have read on this forum for quite a while.

I will tell you what is foreign, it is the vile evangelical nonsense coming from the US at the moment.

http://youtu.be/whV8heFHXoQ

The thought it may well be infecting this country is utterly depressing.

The Bishops are spot on and will hopefully not be turning us to an American style crack pot religion any time soon.

Steele Redux's youtube link refers to Rowe v. Wade-

"Amanpour and Company
313K subscribers
The likely demise of Roe v. Wade has galvanized America’s evangelicals. Who exactly are they? And how do they influence politics? Kristin Du Mez is a professor at Calvin University and a historian of American Christianity. Her book "Jesus and John Wayne" takes a look at 75 years of white evangelicalism. Du Mez tells Michel Martin she believes the Christian right is undermining democracy and fracturing the country.

Originally aired on May 5, 2022"

The issue of abortion presented in Rowe v. Wade seems to be an oversimplification of the issues and doesn't present it in a way that considers all the stakeholders- and degrades the debate to an overly emotional level

The left socialists seem to see the change in the power dynamic of western society as advantageous to the Socialist cause- because it delegitimizes the current social structure- in this case the dynamic between men and women. When deconstructing a society socialists talk about- the need for change, old thinking, etc, etc- when in power they are very conservative- talking about counter revolutionary thinking.

It's interesting seeing this sort of dynamic play out in Rowe v Wade.

The traditionalist position is that men and women need each other and if they go to war against each other everyone loses. Men and women have different strengths and weaknesses- based on their physical bodies and their different psychologies.

From the point of view of the church the church is a stakeholder in the abortion issue- and the stability of the family generally. The minister often has a role in helping families with the normal problems faced by all families- this help is not something that mass society or "representative government" (not democratic) is equipped to deal with. Many people feel alone in modern society for this reason- but the socialists will point the blame back to traditionalism- they can try the distraction tactic- "point and say "look" and run away"- for a while but eventually people will see it.

Everyone has their sacred cows I suppose- for women- don't talk about them being too emotional, etc. I'm sure men have similar weaknesses- Jung referred to the dark sides of the archetypes.

Traditionalists see society as like an army- in a sense- everyone has their place in the machine- in private you can do what you like- in public you need to work proficiently with other people. There are standards. If standard's breakdown so does productivity and everyone suffers from shortages. Sometimes standards have to be reviewed but carefully and wisely- there are always foreign entities looking to take advantage of weakness.

Roman Armies used criminals on the front line to disrupt the enemy battle lines. For a Socialist the enemy is stable society.

CM wrote: "Gay politics is not about fairness- it's about power- mostly foreign."

and SR replied "Well that is about the thickest thing I have read on this forum for quite a while."

CM, when SR tells you your observation is 'thick', you can be pretty sure you're on the mark. Especially when he offers not the slightest attempt at evidence to support his derision.

There was once a time when 'gay' activists were about achieving so-called equal rights. But that was all last century. These days 'gay' is a political movement which attempts to force the mainstream to not only accept homosexuality as a reality but also laud it and pretend its an equally valid lifestyle to heterosexuality - an equivalence they themselves would never consider.

Remember when we were assured SSM was the last hurdle the homosexual community needed to overcome. As we all knew, as soon as it was achieved they just moved on to the next 'claim'. T'was always going to happen.

Is Mise,

I don't quite understand you're persistence in questioning
my childhood experiences regarding some priests and nuns.

Preaching intolerance was the norm back in those days.
And no - it didn't come from our much loved parish priest and
close family friend - although as an Irishman - he did
once make some unflattering comments about the British
to my dad.

Preaching hatred from the pulpit though, still exists today.
I remember during Mass one Sunday prior to the same-sex
marriage controversy - the priest making his feelings known
in some very unflattering and unnecessary terms. I guess
many of us tend to forget that priests are also human with
their own prejudices and biases and can also behave badly
at times as can we all.

Is Mise,

I have no control of what you think regarding my
knowledge of Catholicism. Same as you don't have
any control over what I think of your knowledge of
Islam.

So I guess we're even.

Enjoy your day.

Foxy,
Because your childhood memories were/are flawed especially the ridiculous claim that Catholics were not to associate with Protestants.
This is so ridiculous as to be laughable, as I said what about mixed marriages, where the Church approved association, of the most intimate kind, with a Protestant.
Or children associating with a Protestant parent.
What about Protestant children at Catholic schools?
Did they have a special place in the playground to stop fraternisation?

As for hatred being preached against non-Catholics, where is the evidence in the form of Protestant backlash?
There is none.

Is Mise,

It seems that you don't have any Catholic friends
who grew up in Australia being educated by the
Sisters of Mercy or the Christian Brothers.

Schoolgirl reminiscences of humans in the Catholic school and church structure are irrelevant to the Bible and human disregard for it.

ttbn,

Actually it was/is very relevant due to the
interpretations of the Bible that some were taught
and resulted in their biased attitudes being passed
on to other generations. It also resulted in many
leaving the church in large numbers - including
quite a few - priests and nuns.

I remember reading decades ago the book:

"A Modern Priest Looks At His Outdated Church,"
written by Father James Kavanaugh.

It caused great controversy in the 1970s.
Look it up on the web. It confirms that -
"Kavanaugh eloquently appealed to his Church
to surrender its antiquated abusive position
to become a community of compassion and love."

Father Kavanaugh ended up leaving the Church.

This thread is not even about the Catholic church: it's about the Anglican Church. Will that bring you out from under your rock again?

Foxy,
That’s not the point, the point is that you made ridiculous statements about Catholics and you can’t answer one of the questions that I’ve put to you.
My own experiences in WWII, based on what my father told me and as a live-in member of the local St Vinnies depot (our enclosed side verandah), the local parish priest, the Rev. John O’Reilly, worked hand in glove with the local CofE Minister and the local MasonicLodge to provide some bodily comfort to people who were not so well off, this was a continuation of their combined efforts during the Depression.

Three of my mother’s brothers were Protestant, the boys followed the father’s religion and the girls the mother’s.
Thus some of my first cousins were. Catholic and others Protestant, on my father’s side a ll the first cousins were Catholic but the next remove were Anglican, Methodist and Presbyterian and we all associated with one and other.

ttbn,

This discussion has broadened to inter connecting subjects
including the mentioning of Cardinal Pell.
I'm not sure of what rock he's under - perhaps you'd better ask
him?

Hi Foxy and Issy,

My maternal grandmother converted to Catholicism to marry my grandfather. My mother, catholic, married my father, C of E, in a Methodist church, both the Catholic and C of E wouldn't marry them.

Issy, didn't you once say on the Forum, when you were at Catholic school a bit of "slap and tickle" from Father was considered "normal" all part of the Catholic experience.

Don't know about prods at my Catholic schools, they must have been closet prods if they were there.

I glad we'll all tykes here, once I've done my 10,000 years in purgatory I want to go through the pearly gates of heaven, hallelujah BROTHER!, hallelujah SISTER!

I grew up in a small cul-de-sac in what was then the outskirts of Sydney. Pretty much the entire suburb was made up of young families seeking the Australian dream. The street had 10 houses, five of which were catholic, 4 protestant, 1 orthodox.

The catholic boys went to a Christian Brothers school (Blacktown) and the girls to Our Lady of something-or-other school.

The notion that they (the Catholics) were banned or even discouraged from associating with the rest of us is daft. It strikes me as one of those recovered memories - you know, it never happened but the rememberer is convinced it did.

Rather amusing that the rememberer would tout the myth while simultaneously demanding 'tolerance' from others.

"I'm not sure of what rock he's [George Pell] under.."

Last I read he's enjoying his freedom in an undisclosed place in Australia.

He went public last month to comment on the testimony of Cardinal Becciu as regards the Vatican's finances. Some might remember that Becciu was instrumental in sending $2 million or so to Australia at the height of the anti-Pell hysteria. Pell (and those of us interested in justice) know why the funds were sent but it would be good to have it confirmed and the culprits exposed.

For those who don't know, the money was sent to groups in Australia to fund the anti-Pell hysteria. Becciu and others were concerned that Pell was getting too close to exposing corruption in the Vatican and decided to use and fund the ABC's and Victorian Police's vendetta against Pell. They succeeded. Pell's investigations were halted. An innocent man went to goal but, you know...the ends justify the means for some.

Foxy,
Your contempt for the Australian legal system is apparent, George Pell was vindicated.

Foxy,
Pell was found not guilty on appeabl, or didn’t you know that?

Hi Paul,

For anyone interested in the history of Catholicism
in Australia they don't have to believe my personal
childhood experiences or those of my husband.

There is such a wide range of material out there.

From a variety of books, written by people like
Paul Collins, historian, broadcaster and writer. A
Catholic priest for 33 years with a Master's Degree
in Theology from Harvard to Catholic priest and
historian Edmund Campion.

Then there's films like "The Devil's Playground."
The satirical play on the Christian Brothers that
brought the house down in Melbourne, and much, much
more.

However, I am slowly learning that on this forum it is
wise and best not to provoke or engage with people whose
minds are already made up on any given subject. Especially
controversial subjects like, a Voice for Our Indigenous
People, the Queen, the Monarchy, the Republic, Religion,
Sexual Orientation, and Cardinal Pell's guilt or innocence,
to mention just a few. Best to let sleeping dogs lie as they
say.

_____________________________________________________________________

Foxy,
Pell was found not guilty, but that was only by the High Court of Australia, so I guess we should bow to Foxy’s greater experience.

Kudos Is Mise

mhaze said-

CM, when SR tells you your observation is 'thick', you can be pretty sure you're on the mark. Especially when he offers not the slightest attempt at evidence to support his derision.

Answer- Thanks mhaze. I think I agree with your summation. Always good to hear your views mhaze.

Foxy,
From the depths of your wealth of knowledge perhaps you could explain why Catholic schools would accept Protestant children if association with non-Catholics was not allowed.
My old school, Benedict College, Auburn, NSW, had Protestant students when I attended it in the 1940s.
Today it counts Muslims among the students.

Pell's appeal was granted on a legal technicality and was not a proof of innocence per se.

The High Court judges did not consider his actual guilt or innocence but only the matter of "reasonable doubt" in failed applications to the Victorian Court of Appeal and they overturned the State decision.

I don't know how he went with other civil lawsuits likely after the release of the Royal Commission’s findings about his conduct in Ballarat.

Foxy.

FYI there was indeed a lot of Catholic versus Protestant hostility in Australia from the 1920s almost up to the 70s, particularly in marriages which were sometimes regarded as "mixed" and caused strife within families.

Sometimes those priests who agreed to perform such marriages would do it behind the altar and not in front so as not to offend God in some way.

The then-23% Catholic minority, especially those of of Irish descent were regarded as an "underclass" by British descended Protestants and were sometimes denied employment on the basis of their religion. It never reached the violence of "the troubles" as in Ireland but was indeed an ugly period in our own history. The original Catholic Schools were intended for the struggling poor and were not the elitist version of today.

"Pell's appeal was granted on a legal technicality and was not a proof of innocence per se."

Yes, very true. The technicality was that he wasn't guilty. Courts don't determine guilt or innocence. They determine whether is a person is guilty or not guilty.

There is a long tradition in British legal systems that people are innocent before the law until proven guilty. Pell wasn't proven guilty and was therefore innocent.

I'm sure the usual suspects here are aware of that legal standard. Its just that when it comes to groups they hate, they pretend that it doesn't apply. But if I was to say that Shorten got off on his rape allegation based on the technicality that they couldn't prove guilt, those same people would bristle at the thought.

So yes, for these people, normal legal standards don't apply when dealing with a group they hate. But don't point out this hatred, because they tell you interminably how very tolerant they are.

We will never hear the end of this "technicality" BS as long as legal ignoramuses draw breath. Pell's appeal was not "granted"; he was found not guilty because there was 'reasonable doubt' that what he was accused of could have happened the way it was described. That’s the way all acquittals work. Nothing to do with 'technicalities' parroted by people too stupid to be unconfined, let alone to have opinions and get a vote.

Hi rache,

I can still remember being told that I would burn in
hell if I ate meat on Fridays or missed out on Mass
on Sundays.

The posters who are on a roll here in decrying our
personal childhood experiences have neglected to do
one thing. To ask whether we actually followed all the teachings
blindly - that were so narrow - at that time?

My father took me out of the Catholic school system after
I came home with a swollen hand - as a result of being caned
for something I did not do.

I got enrolled in an all girls public school. My husband who
grew up under the Christian Brothers school system - had a
well know pedophile priest as principal - who later got
moved to another school - to avoid scandal. Thankfully
my husband was never abused - although a friend of his
a young lad - committed suicide. He was one of the
principal's "favourites." The entire school attended the
boy's funeral.

My husband was
an altar-boy for years - but his experiences at the school
were enough to turn him off religion for life. And he wasn't
alone in those feelings. However we both later found our own paths
in future years.

They were difficult times back then.
However both my husband and I did
not leave the church - we were married in one by our much
loved Catholic Irish priest and close family friend. My husband
and I firmly believe in the future of Australian Catholicism.
We still have a great deal of hope that people speaking out
and writing about their experiences - people like Paul Collins,
Edmund Campion, Thomas Keneally, and many others will make
their voices heard.

As for Cardinal Pell?

We have friends living in Ballarat. The Cardinal's reputation
is well known there. As it is in Sydney. Whether he's guilty
or innocent - the controversial judgement of the High Court
remains. He feels he's been vindicated. However justice wears
a blindfold - and perhaps in the Pell case it is warranted.

http://theconversation.com/how-george-pell-won-in-the-high-court-on-a-legal-technicality-133156#

Abnd as usual Foxy doesn’t answer one question thar is put to her; Ah! Well! See you on another thread.

Hi Issy,

How are you going with that CATHOLIC EXPERIENCE I asked about? The "slap and tickle" from Father back in the day you said was normal in Catholic schools. You went silent on that and you demand answers from Foxy.

What do I think of Pell, nothing, he got a get out of jail free card and that's it. I suppose he can go and take another stroll with his roomie mate Ridsdale. Pell got off one, there are another twenty that will never see the light of day. You treat it as a travesty of justice, its not.

A few thoughts on the subject:

" The Roman Catholic Church is for saints and sinners alone, -
for respectable people, the Anglican Church will do. "
(Oscar Wilde).

And then we have -

"Neither the true faith nor eternal salvation is to be found
outside the Holy Catholic Church."
(Pope Pius IX).

There's more:

"What has officially been declared as the basis of theological
studies in the Roman Catholic Church has been enormously
influenced by Islam and Muslim beliefs."

Funny old world - isn't it?

(Karl Wiggins).

Hi Paul,

I'm wondering how what I do or do not post concerns
Is Mise, and why it bothers him?

Hi Paul,

I just remembered another story:

Sister Mary Virgilius was asking around the classroom -
in the all girls high school - what each girl wanted to be
when she left school. All the answers were acceptable to
the nun except for young Emma - who replied she wanted to
be a prostitute.

Sister Virgilius cried - "What did you say?"

"A prostitute!" replied Emma.

"A what?" asked Sister.

"A prostitute!" Emma shouted.

"Oh, Thank God!," cried Sister with relief.

"I thought you said - a Protestant!"

Hi Foxy,

Issy's only trying to rake you up, get under your skin. He's never said how he won the "Taj Mahal" on this election, after declaring Morrison a certainty in a two horse race. Not like 2019 claiming on the Monday after the vote, to have won a car, by backing both sided. He must be a millionaire, imagine if you got top odds of $2.10 about both runners. That's a guaranteed win of 10c for every $2 outlaid, regardless of who wins. If the car was only worth $1,000 you would need to outlay $20,000 to win $1,000, and that's assuming you can get those fantastic over the odds. Gee, the pension must pay well if you're got a lazy 20 grand lying around to "bet" with.

However, I do like the old sob, always nice to him, but he's insulted if you say he's a Korean Conquistador, I mentioned it, but I think I got away with it. Like Basil Fawlty and his Nazi antics.

Hi Paul,

You're right. That is very typical of him.
Thanks for that helpful observation.

Dear mhaze,

You are my pride and joy. Look at you, arguing the toss and cheering on people like CM. Brings a tear to my eye, truly does.

Just a word to the wise though.

When some blinkered tosser posts "Gay politics is not about fairness- it's about power- mostly foreign." without a single piece of supporting evidence and he gets called out on it then it is a wee bit disingenuous to be saying:

"CM, when SR tells you your observation is 'thick', you can be pretty sure you're on the mark. Especially when he offers not the slightest attempt at evidence to support his derision."

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and unless you can name the foreign power so enamoured with foisting gay rights upon us poor Aussies.

This bloke has the tendency to pull statements like these out of his proverbial. When he does it is incumbent on him to provide evidence not the rest of us poor suffering souls.

Foxy,
What you post doesn’t bother me, but I do get some laughs.

SR wrote: "unless you can name the foreign power so enamoured with foisting gay rights upon us poor Aussies."

He didn't say it involved a foreign power. Just foreign. Foreign activists? Foreign movements? Foreign social media? Foreign ideas? Any of those make sense and are valid.

Yet again SR misreads and then demands his misunderstanding be addressed. Dear oh dear.

Is Mise,

Yes, I can imagine your laughing so hard at my posts -
that your yellow tears run down your leg. (smile).

Foxy,
Your crudity and accuracy both leave something to be desired, and it’s not repetition.

Is Mise,

I'm learning from you - where your sense of humour lies.
Just trying to comply with your level of understanding.
If that's a bad thing, then you should stop leading by
example and then complaining.

Foxy,
So you should be learning from me , after all I do point out your errors.

The thing I really love about the Foxy/IS tiff is all the tolerance on display.

Is Mise,

You're right, pointing out the errors of others
is very typical of you.

mhaze,

There, there, I know it must be difficult, if not impossible
for you to understand people who don't have a low
tolerance of criticism such as you do.

But if its any comfort to you - we do understand you.

Kudos mhaze

I second that.

Double kudos.

More please.

That's pretty funny Foxy. Or sad...I can't tell which. The lady who initiated an interminable thread telling everyone how tolerant she is, has her hypocrisy highlighted and gets upset about.

My mother used to say.. "Don't do as I do, do as I say". A motto Foxy lives by.

mhaze,

It's strange that when I don't act like a door-mat
and dare to defend myself against any digs or attempts
to provoke me you find fault only with me. And tell me
that I'm the one being a hypocrite and intolerant.

So, you're right. It is sad. But not surprising on
this forum.

I'm pleased that you listen to your mother.
I also listen to mine.
She taught me that life is about kicking ass
not kissing it! Something I had forgotten until now.
Thanks for the reminder.

Perhaps you don't realise it, but if you admonish all others to be more tolerant and then display a lack of it yourself, you do rather leave yourself open.

mhaze,

I don't attack others.

When unnecessarily pushed too far - I respond to
attacks. Therein lies the difference. How about your record
on this forum? Are you immune to attacks? And isn't asking
for tolerance a good thing? I have also admitted my own
sins on that thread.

I have learned not to let my head down. That if I ever let my
head down it will be just to admire my shoes.

However, there is a spot of calm deep within me, from which
I don't stray too far.

cont'd ...

mhaze,

" The world is not the most pleasant place.
Eventually, your parents leave you and nobody
is going to go out of their way to protect you
unconditionally. You need to stand up for yourself
and what you believe and sometimes, pardon my language,
kick some ass."

(Queen Elizabeth II).

The Church has the right to identify its members by beliefs and life practices. To exclude a person from membership, they believe, is acting contrary to its tenants of faith and practice is not hate. Churches have many attending who are not members. I attended a church and we welcomed a cross dresser, though many women did not appreciate this.